View Full Version : Is belief in God a choice?
AlonzoMourning23
05-10-2007, 06:49 PM
I got into an argument yesterday with someone who insisted that people could choose whether or not they believed in God. This wasn't about whether or not to practice a certain faith. The question was whether people had a choice to truly believe in the most basic premise of a religion, a God, or whether it was something that you either believe or you don't.
I'm not sure what you mean Zo. Unless someone was raised in a sterile enviorment, they are going to be exposed to some type of religion, so choosing what to believe in or not is going to be a conscience decision.
AlonzoMourning23
05-10-2007, 09:40 PM
The question was whether simply believing in God is a choice. Not whether you choose to adopt a religion, but simply whether truly believing that there is a God, or isn't a God, is a choice or if it's something you have little control over.
For example, could a Christian easily become an Atheist and an Atheist become a Christian simply by deciding that they now believe in God or don't believe in God? Can they change such central beliefs simply at their will? Can they change such voice simply by choice? Or is it something that most people do or don't believe?
For example, could a Christian easily become an Atheist and an Atheist become a Christian simply by deciding that they now believe in God or don't believe in God? Can they change such central beliefs simply at their will? Can they change such voice simply by choice? Or is it something that most people do or don't believe?
I don't want to mess up your thread by saying the same thing...but If a Christian became an Atheist or the other way around, it would have to be because of something that happened in their life, thus them still making it a choice.
I think maybe I'm just not understanding the premise of the question, so I'll wait and read other replies.
Buck Laser
05-10-2007, 10:26 PM
I could be wrong--it's happened on a few occasions :D, but I really think most people don't pay much attention to questions like that--but if they do, it tends to be a passing thought, quickly displaced by some other wandering idea. Certainly atheists have made conscious decisions, and agnostics are by definition uncertain.
On the other hand, the number of people who could make a rational assertion of the existence of God, as opposed to a statement of faith, are few and far between. To my knowledge, there is no flawless philosophical demonstration of the existence of God, though most philosophers have tried.
Similarly, there is no declaration of faith in God's existence that stands effectively by itself to prove God's existence. In the end, belief in God is neither rational nor irrational. Belief stands outside the realm of reason.
AlonzoMourning23
05-10-2007, 10:28 PM
For example, could a Christian easily become an Atheist and an Atheist become a Christian simply by deciding that they now believe in God or don't believe in God? Can they change such central beliefs simply at their will? Can they change such voice simply by choice? Or is it something that most people do or don't believe?
I don't want to mess up your thread by saying the same thing...but If a Christian became an Atheist or the other way around, it would have to be because of something that happened in their life, thus them still making it a choice.
I think maybe I'm just not understanding the premise of the question, so I'll wait and read other replies.
Can you take most Atheists and get them to believe in God simply by getting them to decide to. Can they go from not believing to believing at any time simply by deciding to change?
Can you take most Atheists and get them to believe in God simply by getting them to decide to. Can they go from not believing to believing at any time simply by deciding to change?
But you are still working on the premise that people live in a vaccuum and have no outside imput. If that were the case, I'd have to say no.
AlonzoMourning23
05-10-2007, 11:46 PM
This seems to be a tricky question.
If you were to attempt to stop believing in God (or start, I'm not sure what you believe), right now, could you do it?
potter
05-11-2007, 02:08 AM
I could be wrong--it's happened on a few occasions :D, but I really think most people don't pay much attention to questions like that--but if they do, it tends to be a passing thought, quickly displaced by some other wandering idea.Â*Â*CertainlyÂ*Â*atheists have made conscious decisions, and agnostics are by definition uncertain.
On the other hand, the number of people who could make a rational assertion of the existence of God, as opposed to a statement of faith, are few and far between.Â*Â*To my knowledge, there is no flawless philosophical demonstration of the existence of God, though most philosophers have tried.Â*Â*
Similarly, there is no declaration of faith in God's existence that stands effectively by itself to prove God's existence.Â*Â*In the end, belief in God is neither rational nor irrational.Â*Â*Belief stands outside the realm of reason.
If you can neither prove it or disprove it, how can the decision be irrational?
Many people see God as a beacon of hope and they cling to that beacon during hard times. IMO anything that helps you through the day in a positive manner is rational.
BoogyMan
05-11-2007, 02:36 AM
Romans 10:17 says "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
Faith is typically seen in a spiritual sense as a belief plus an expectation, so I would have to affirm that belief in God is certainly a choice and it comes from hearing His word.
Buck Laser
05-11-2007, 03:19 AM
If you can neither prove it or disprove it, how can the decision be irrational?
Many people see God as a beacon of hope and they cling to that beacon during hard times. IMO anything that helps you through the day in a positive manner is rational.
I didn't say it was irrational. I said it's outside the realm of reason. You could say 'arational' or 'extrarational' if you wish.
firefox
05-12-2007, 05:47 AM
I just read an article in the latest Economist about this issue. In summary, "culture" will become the replacement for "religion" in the future, as the world continues to urbanize. I'm not sure I believe this, but that's what the article said.
piratemonkey
05-12-2007, 04:39 PM
If you can neither prove it or disprove it, how can the decision be irrational?
Deciding something is positively true, based upon a required lack of evidence in religious questions, is an irrational decision... by definition.
Many people see God as a beacon of hope and they cling to that beacon during hard times. IMO anything that helps you through the day in a positive manner is rational.
I have to disagree with your logic.
E.g.Â*Â*Heroin addicts get throught the day in a positive manner when they are strung out.Â*Â*Sadists feel the best when they are hurting people.
I'm not comparing religion to drugs or sadism, just pointing out that not all things that make us feel good are rational to do.
potter
05-13-2007, 04:53 PM
If you can neither prove it or disprove it, how can the decision be irrational?
Deciding something is positively true, based upon a required lack of evidence in religious questions, is an irrational decision... by definition.
Many people see God as a beacon of hope and they cling to that beacon during hard times. IMO anything that helps you through the day in a positive manner is rational.
I have to disagree with your logic.
E.g.Â*Â*Heroin addicts get throught the day in a positive manner when they are strung out.Â*Â*Sadists feel the best when they are hurting people.
I'm not comparing religion to drugs or sadism, just pointing out that not all things that make us feel good are rational to do.
Your point is taken, however since we were talking about faith and not drugs.....
piratemonkey
05-14-2007, 06:18 PM
Your point is taken, however since we were talking about faith and not drugs.....
All I'm saying is that your defense of religion... that it gets some people through the day... isn't a good argument.
Many very bad, pathological things get people through the day.
Yushimi
05-25-2007, 07:48 PM
Of course people have a choice to believe in God. Not only is it our RIGHT as Americans, but as human beings we have our own beliefs, just like we can choose our favorite colour.
I, myself, am currently in between religions. When I was in fifth grade, my father died. One group of people took me aside, saying that God knew it was his time, and other people took me and told me to believe what I wanted to believe.
Human influence and other struggles within myself have stranded me to be open minded about all the ideals of humans in this world... whether the reason be my sexuality, my friendship with others, or my regular outlook on life and people.
I do my best to NOT argue with my friends of Christian belief, who say that my morals are wrong - it goes into the Bible and their beliefs. I don't fully feel comfortable with the thought of God condemning you for a thing such as sexuality (something I will not get into here but if you ever feel like discussing it with me, I'll be more than happy to).
The problem I have about speaking to other's about Christian faith is that the Bible has been revised many many times over ten thousand years, and the people who put it together pick and choose whats exactly put in the great book. So I feel that the whole story isn't exactly there.
piratemonkey
05-25-2007, 08:34 PM
I do my best to NOT argue with my friends of Christian belief, who say that my morals are wrong - it goes into the Bible and their beliefs.
And there's the problem.
Their beliefs say that your morals are wrong.
By definition, beliefs are based solely upon faith, which can't be proven true or false. So, based upon something completely unprovable, they have decreed that you are immoral.
Unbelievable. (pun intended:P)
Yushimi
05-26-2007, 02:45 AM
I do my best to NOT argue with my friends of Christian belief, who say that my morals are wrong - it goes into the Bible and their beliefs.
And there's the problem.
Their beliefs say that your morals are wrong.
By definition, beliefs are based solely upon faith, which can't be proven true or false. So, based upon something completely unprovable, they have decreed that you are immoral.
Unbelievable. (pun intended:P)
So what am I exactly to tell them when we're in a heated argument? It wouldn't be enough evidence for them though I TOTALLY agree with you.
piratemonkey
05-27-2007, 01:12 AM
So what am I exactly to tell them when we're in a heated argument? It wouldn't be enough evidence for them though I TOTALLY agree with you.
That's a tough question. The answer depends upon what your goal is in arguing with them about sensitive topics like religious belief.
Generally, if I'm discussing such things with friends, my goal is to get them to think outside the religion box that their parents put them in. When you've been thinking something incredible is true since you were 4 years old, it's very, very tough to think otherwise.
My tactic is generally wit and humor. The "rational" arguments for religion are so absurd that it's usually pretty easy to get your point across and be a bit of a smart-ass in the process. As the Daily Show shows, nothing can make people unwittingly think about deep issues than humor.
The question was whether simply believing in God is a choice. Not whether you choose to adopt a religion, but simply whether truly believing that there is a God, or isn't a God, is a choice or if it's something you have little control over.
For example, could a Christian easily become an Atheist and an Atheist become a Christian simply by deciding that they now believe in God or don't believe in God? Can they change such central beliefs simply at their will? Can they change such voice simply by choice? Or is it something that most people do or don't believe?
I think that you are looking at this the wrong way. People don't just adopt and abort religions for fun. The question should be phocused on why people would believe in god, What makes god so important to them. If god is something that a person uses in swear words and bored sighs then they would have no problem becoming aethiest, What is most important is why god is important to them, and if you know that, then it would become more easily obvious why they can or cannot change their religion in a snap.
firefox
06-02-2007, 09:42 AM
God, damn you :)
...Sorry, I couldn't resist. You had to see it coming eventually...
lawless168
06-22-2007, 04:57 PM
how many atheist are there in Iran or that will own up to it?
My vote: for most people no
Well, I believe it should be a choice, but it depends... for example in Estonia, where religion has almost no power at all and no one really cares what you believe in, it is most of the time your own choice... but then I look "7th Heaven" and see how the children are basically forced into belief. I understand that "7th Heaven" is just some TV show and that family is not real, but I am also sure that there are many families like that where parents leave their children no choice.
..........but then I look "7th Heaven" and see how the children are basically forced into belief. I understand that "7th Heaven" is just some TV show and that family is not real, but I am also sure that there are many families like that where parents leave their children no choice.
I'm going to have to agree that as childern they don't have a choice about religion, nor should they that is their parent's choice to make.
When they become adults they do have a choice and isn't it better to have some type of foundation to make that choice on?
TheStripey1
08-22-2007, 06:14 PM
I got into an argument yesterday with someone who insisted that people could choose whether or not they believed in God. This wasn't about whether or not to practice a certain faith. The question was whether people had a choice to truly believe in the most basic premise of a religion, a God, or whether it was something that you either believe or you don't.
I take it that you were arguing that a person's belief in God is not a choice.
Sorry... but I disagree with you too.
jafar00
08-23-2007, 07:05 PM
how many atheist are there in Iran or that will own up to it?
My vote: for most people no
There are quite likely many atheists in Iran, as there are other faiths. Did you know Iran has a large and very proud Jewish population that has repeatedly refused large bribes from Israel to emigrate?
They aren't all Muslims.
AnnEsthesia
08-23-2007, 07:11 PM
Not to mention the fact that just because your government says you *have* to be of a certain religion or act in a certain way does not mean you believe it or do so for any reason other than to get along.
If I were to go to court, I would not make a stink and refuse to swear on a bible, but just because I did so would not mean I think the book is anything more than a book.
vBulletin® v3.7.0, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.