Can sex between consenting and mentally competent adults be immoral?

[AlonzoMourning23]

In my opinion when one person, but not both, are under 18 (though there's some leeway depending on the circumstances and culture), when one person is being taken advantage of (ie. lied to or in some way mislead) and when one person is not mentally competent. That last one doesn't mean, for example, that someone with mental retardation can't have sex. I'm talking about someone who realistically is unable to even comprehend what they're doing.

Though, the only instance that involves competent adults where sex would be immoral is when it involves cheating.

[crimzonsol]

I agree with you, exept I would also include prostitution as immoral.

[lily]

That last one doesn't mean, for example, that someone with mental retardation can't have sex.

I voted no on this one before reading the whole thing. I thought this was going to be about two people with mental retardation being allowed to have sex and procreate. I should have known you better Zo. I know you wouldn't be so narrow minded.

Anyway.......my vote is still no, it's not immoral

[underdawg]

I think it is only immoral when people cheat. The person getting cheated on could contract a disease from their partner. I don't see prostitution as immoral as long as the prostitute is doing this of their own free will and they are of legal age.

[crimzonsol]

How many prostitutes wanted to be prostitutes when they were little. We as a society fuck them instead of helping them. Capitalism at its Finest.

[Pookie]

A friend's marriage was ruined because of spousal cheating. He messed around for years and she couldn't trust him any more. When trust is broken, many things are broken and often there is no fixing stuff.
Purrs,

[AlonzoMourning23]

Want to help them? Legalize and regulate it. Get rid of the pimps, ensure proper testing, give them benefits etc. You'll dramatically cut STD rates, cut the rate of abuse of prostitutes both by pimps, by eliminating them, and by clients, since the prostitues wouldn't have to worry about being arrested by police.

[crimzonsol]

Or we could help them get real Jobs.

[jafar00]

From an Islamic point of view, sex outside of Marriage is immoral. However for those outside of those moral constraints I agree on the "only if it's cheating".

[AlonzoMourning23]

Or we could help them get real Jobs.


And the monetary difference between the two means you'll still have a huge prostitute population.

[Pookie]

Ok, so if helping them get real jobs and cracking down on the pimps won't work, I have a question.
It is mostly men who give the prostitutes busines.
Perhaps somebody needs to look at that and address this: Keep it in your pants and off the streets.
Just an idea, folks.
Purrs,

[Mayberry]

How many prostitutes wanted to be prostitutes when they were little. We as a society f_ck them instead of helping them. Capitalism at its Finest.

Nobody is holding a gun to their heads. And it's not just a capitalist thing. I was in the Navy, trust me, prostitution is a world wide industry. It is mostly men who give the prostitutes busines.
Perhaps somebody needs to look at that and address this: Keep it in your pants and off the streets.
Yeah, what Pookie said.

[Mover]

It is immoral when the "consenting and mentally competent adults" refuse to accept the consequences of their decision to have sex together.

Consequences like changing a relationship (cheating) or by succeeding in achieving the natural outcome of sex, getting pregnant and it's consequences. IMO.

[Truth_and_Power]

It's a lot of fun being open minded until it's your daughter or friend that gets in a bad way and ends up doing that shit. Every time they do it it's a new bruise on their soul, and you can see it if you know them. Supporting prostitution via being a customer is immoral on its face IMO. Only detachment allows us to think otherwise. And if you're cheating, it's doubly immoral.

[AlonzoMourning23]

Only detachment allows us to think otherwise.

In toronto they have a place set up so sex workers can come and socialize, talk, get help (drugs, legal advice, escape pimp etc.). Many of the people who volunteer there are sex workers themselves. It was designed to be non judgemental and was not opposed to sex work. One of the biggest problem for abused men and women (yes, there are many male prostitutes) is that they are afraid to report crimes to the police since they put themselves at risk for being arrested. Many were even too scared to go to the place I just mentioned.

[Churchel]

quoting the great George Carlin:

Selling is legal, fucking is legal; why isn't selling fucking legal?

[1Samuel8]

One of the biggest problem for abused men and women (yes, there are many male prostitutes) is that they are afraid to report crimes to the police since they put themselves at risk for being arrested.Agreed. That is the source of the problem.



Want to help them? Legalize and regulate it. Get rid of the pimps, ensure proper testing, give them benefits etc.I think your heart is in the right place but I do NOT want it regulated. I suggest a simpler strategy: decriminalize prostitution.
If you decriminalize prostitution, it can be treated like any other business. The problems of pimps, proper testing and benefits can already be managed.

I am not trying to be semantic but rather I do not want the government to have anything to do with it.

The main problem prostitutes face is physical violence and lack of physical protection: for example, prostitutes are forced to take drugs or forced to have sex. A victim of those things who is NOT a prostitute would have no trouble getting legal help. A prostitute can not get help from the police and the general public. Keeping prostitution illegal perpetuates the problem.

[AlonzoMourning23]

I think your heart is in the right place but I do NOT want it regulated. I suggest a simpler strategy: decriminalize prostitution.
If you decriminalize prostitution, it can be treated like any other business. The problems of pimps, proper testing and benefits can already be managed.

Ummmm.......... in what fantasy world are you going to have drug dealers and other criminals play nicely when it comes to prostitution? The trick is to minimize the criminal element.

I am not trying to be semantic but rather I do not want the government to have anything to do with it.

The main problem prostitutes face is physical violence and lack of physical protection: for example, prostitutes are forced to take drugs or forced to have sex. A victim of those things who is NOT a prostitute would have no trouble getting legal help. A prostitute can not get help from the police and the general public. Keeping prostitution illegal perpetuates the problem.


And not regulating it simply allows the criminals to have a field day. The idea that somehow we could decriminalize it and not face significant issues of abuse and criminal activity is misguided.

[Mayberry]

The idea that somehow we could decriminalize it and not face significant issues of abuse and criminal activity is misguided.
Amsterdam.

[AlonzoMourning23]

The Government has imposed conditions on the location, organization and business operations of brothels in an attempt to regulate prostitution, tackle forced prostitution and protect minors from sexual abuse. These conditions are laid down in legislation, zoning plans and various bi-laws. As part of a move to improve working conditions for prostitutes, establishments must obtain a certificate stating that they have met the legal requirements.

Monitoring the regulations
The police and the urban district council (Building and Housing Inspectorate) are the main bodies responsible for enforcing the various laws and stipulations, though sometimes the Health & Safety Inspectorate or Tax Administration are also brought in. Inspections are regularly held to assure that illegal or under-age prostitutes are not working in the establishments.

A business that fails to comply with the regulations will face various measures. Minor violations such as a lack of supervision, the presence of illegal prostitutes or creating nuisance to the surrounding area, will result in the imposition of a step-by-step plan that may eventually lead to closure.

Streetwalking Zones
While street prostitution is prohibited, between 1996 and December 2003, the 'Tippelzone' area on the Theemsweg was designated for such activities. While this seemed contradictory, it is a measure for the municipal authorities to concentrate street prostitution into one area, outside of the city centre, in order to regulate it. The area is also an attempt to improve the safety and negotiating position of the prostitutes.

However, an evaluation carried out in 2002 showed that too many prostitutes were working in the streetwalking area. Many of them were staying in the Netherlands illegally and there was even evidence to suggest that they had been brought here by groups working within organized crime.

The tighter policy introduced to resolve the problem had little effect. The evaluation report stated that although the situation had improved slightly, the area was still being used by women traffickers who were forcing their victims into prostitution. The municipal authorities decided to close this zone.

Care
The GG&GD (Municipal Health Services) plays a large role in supplying prostitutes with information and care. They provide regular surgeries, projects for various target groups and a free or low-cost clinic for sexually transmitted diseases. A number of smaller organizations, such as the Prostitutes' Union ‘Stichting de Rode Draad’ (literally 'The Red Thread', but meaning 'The Common Thread') and the ‘Prostitutie Informatie Centrum’ (Prostitutes' Information Centre), also provides information and support to prostitutes on all issues and problems. ‘AMOC’ and ‘Regenboog’ are organizations that focus their efforts on helping prostitutes with drug habits.


http://www.iamsterdam.com/introducing/government_politics/policies/prostitution

The move is part of a crackdown on crime in the area.

"We're not knights on a morality crusade, and this is intended to target financial crime, not prostitution per se," city spokesman Martien Maten said Thursday. "But we do think it will change the face of the Red Light District."

The Dutch government legalized prostitution in 2000 to make it easier to tax and regulate.

Maten said the city was now making use of a new law to revoke brothels' licenses when it suspects operators have used them for money laundering or other illegal financial activity.

"In concrete terms (that) means that those involved won't be able to continue their businesses" after the measures takes effect on Jan. 1, the city said in a statement.

But advocacy groups for prostitutes said the move was misguided, since it will hurt the women who act as independent contractors renting space behind the windows. Brothel owners said they would appeal the decision in court.

"The biggest problem we have is with pimps on the street, not the people who own the windows," said Mariska Majoor, a former prostitute who now runs the Prostitution Information Center in the heart of the Red Light District.

"Local politicians don't understand that. Because they want to crack down on crime so badly they are acting like bulls in a china shop," she said.

"Fat" Charlie Geerts, who owns 20 buildings in the district and 60 of the windows slated for closure, said he would appeal the decision. Prosecutors cleared him of any criminal wrongdoing in September 2005.

"You're hurting a bunch of people who have nothing to do with it (crime)," he told local television station AT5.

The narrow streets near Amsterdam's center have been known as a hangout for hookers since the city was the hub of a global trading empire during the Netherlands' 17th century Golden Age.

Even before the formal legalization, prostitution in the district was tolerated by authorities and had become a major tourist attraction.

Women in lingerie stand behind the windows, tapping their fingers against the glass to attract customers, who are no longer sailors on shore leave. The area is home to numerous popular bars, as well as brothels and sex clubs. By some estimates, nearly a third of tourists who visit Amsterdam visit the Red Light District -- most just for a peep.

But the area is a magnet for human traffickers, drug dealers, and petty criminals, and Mayor Job Cohen and members of his Labor Party called for the crackdown.

Earlier, Cohen's administration earned a reputation for prudishness by barring pole dancers from a prominent nightclub and cracking down on public nudity during the city's annual Gay Pride festival.

Smaller brothels say the financial screening is unfair, because banks and reputable accountants are often unwilling to work with them, making it difficult to keep correct books.

"This is a war between the city and the real estate bosses, and it's the women who are suffering," said Metje Blaak, spokeswoman for De Rode Draad, a labor union for prostitutes.

She said she feared many prostitutes would end up working on the street, which is more dangerous and where it is more difficult to halt the spread of sexually transmitted diseases.

But city spokesman Maten said business in the area has been in a slump and he suspected many of the prostitutes affected -- around 300, given that the 105 windows that will be shut are often occupied in shifts -- will find work at the remaining legal brothels.

He added he didn't expect the closures to hurt tourism revenues.

"Amsterdam has many other things to offer," he said.


http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2006/11/30/amsterdam_curbs_prostitution_windows/

[Mayberry]

What's the point, 'Zo?

[AlonzoMourning23]

That amsterdam is not unregulated, and that abuse and other criminal activity has surfaced in the less regulated areas.

[Mayberry]

Oh. I took your statement as "de-criminalizing prostitution could not be done without abuse and criminal activity". Of course some regulation would be called for. I missed that part. My mistake.

[1Samuel8]

Ummmm.......... in what fantasy world are you going to have drug dealers and other criminals play nicely when it comes to prostitution? The trick is to minimize the criminal element.Here is a better trick: stop declaring prostitution a crime. Presto! The criminal element vanishes!

And not regulating it simply allows the criminals to have a field day. The idea that somehow we could decriminalize it and not face significant issues of abuse and criminal activity is misguided.You think declaring something a crime makes people "play nice".

[AlonzoMourning23]

Here is a better trick: stop declaring prostitution a crime. Presto! The criminal element vanishes!

Yup, the drug dealers, gangs and violent pimps will just leave it to good honest people. Right?

You think declaring something a crime makes people "play nice".

Which part of regulate it did you miss?

[1Samuel8]

Which part of regulate it did you miss?I missed the part where you explained why tax-payers should be morally obligated to pay for regulating prostitution. Could you expand on that part?

[AlonzoMourning23]

Which part of regulate it did you miss?I missed the part where you explained why tax-payers should be morally obligated to pay for regulating prostitution. Could you expand on that part?


Which produces the better end result for society?

It would be a nice world if we could simply pay for whatever we want and ignore the rest. I'm sure there's a lot of people out their who wouldn't give their taxes to roads, schools etc., but it just isn't practical for anything.

[1Samuel8]

Which produces the better end result for society?There is no objective way to judge that.
Even if there was, nobody has the moral right to impose that judgment upon anybody else.

It would be a nice world if we could simply pay for whatever we want and ignore the rest.You are glossing over the fact that "ignore the rest" involves forcing other people to pay for something they do not voluntarily offer.

I'm sure there's a lot of people out their who wouldn't give their taxes to roads, schools etc., but it just isn't practical for anything.You could say the same thing for electircity service or automobiles or televsion broadcasting or food or foot-ware or video games or tobacco etc. etc. etc.
Roads and schools do not have to be funded by taxes.

[AlonzoMourning23]

So your problem is taxation, not regulation itself.

A tax free world may work on paper, maybe, but would do nothing but worsen overal wellbeing if implemented.

I honestly don't care about the moral arguments on taxation, show me where your idea produces a better society.

[1Samuel8]

I honestly don't care about the moral arguments on taxation, show me where your idea produces a better society.Two things:
1) other than morality, what other argument is there?
2) show me how you can measure "a better society"

[AlonzoMourning23]

General wellbeing is more important than any hypothetical moral argument. And, honestly, I can see no reasonable argument other than a moral belief to oppose taxation. Their is no practical reason.

A better society would include better living conditions and greater ability to improve themselves.

[Keramac]

"There are but two certainties, death and taxes."

Benjamin Franklin said it, and it still stands today. Taxation is one of the most hated things about everyday life. However, there is no other logical way to garner enough money to pay for all the things we enjoy in Canada: free healthcare, police, fire department, a decent education system, a (really crappy) military, among others. I don't mind paying taxes, because I know that it will benefit both me and my fellow countrymen in the long run.

Towards the idea that innocent taxpayers should not have to shoulder the burden of regulating prostitution, who is paying for all the police work in keeping it criminal? The taxpayers, and they're paying a lot more than if it were legal. Why? Because when something is legal it can be taxed. When prostitution becomes legal, it will be better for the women that work in the sex trade, it will be better for the johns who won't be locked up and/or fined, and it will be better for the taxpayer because they won't have as much of their tax dollars directed into police work. Who's losing out here?

It is only through legalizing prostitution that we can try to clean up our streets. If we continue on the path of criminalizing anyone involved in the sex trade, we are harming everyone.

And, lastly, there is no definite measure for measuring how to better a society, but I think with this it is pretty obvious. We would be protecting the women that can only make money in the sex trade, making sure that sexually frustrated men aren't prosecuted for it, and we would be putting money in the pocket of the taxpayer. How is this bad?[/quote]