foundation of US government

[Athena]

The democracy of the US is threaten because the citizens have forgotten the Greek and Roman begins of democracy. Cicero a Roman statesman was one of the most influential people in the oraganization of the US democratic republic. He studied in Athens, so it is the Ahtenian understanding of the gods and reason, that is the foundation of what Cicero believes is right and the United States early documents. Would anyone care to comment about this?

..."And reason, when it is full grown and perfected, is rightly called wisdom. Therefore, since there is nothing better than reason, and since it exists both in man and God, the first possession of man and God, is reason. But those who have reason in common must also have right reason in common. And since right reason is Law, we must believe that men have Law also in common with gods. Further, those who share Law must also share Justice; and those who share these are to be regarded as members of the same Commonwealth. If indeed they obey the same authorities and powers, this is true in a far greater degree; but as a matter of fact they do obey this celestial system, the divine mind, and the God of transcendent power. Hence we must now conceive of this whole universe as one commonwealth of which both gods and men are members.

Out of all the material of the philosophers' discussions , surely there comes nothing more valuable than the full realization that we are born for Justice, and that right is based, not upon men's opinions, but upon nature."...... Cicero

[Labrocca]

Why would you say that Cicero was influential in organizing the US democratic republic?Â*Â*He had been dead for over 1700 years!

I will try to read up on Cicero but from what I can see at Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicero he really wasn't all that big a deal.

He was NOT a founding father of our nation and while the beginning principals of democracy started with the Athena's it evolved much farther.

I am not sure your point in your post.Â*Â*Do you just want Cicero to have credit or something?Â*Â*Your quote has religious undertones but you said you don't want all topics to get religious.Â*Â*Are you saying you don't want topics to become "Christian"?Â*Â*I really don't know what you are expecting here...please explain.


btw Cicero was dead before Jesus of Nazareth was even born. How do you know that Cicero would not have been a Christian believer? He seems from your post to be a man of faith and not an atheist. He may have converted if he had lived 350 years later during Constantine's time.

[Athena]

Why would you say that Cicero was influential in organizing the US democratic republic?Â*Â*He had been dead for over 1700 years!

I will try to read up on Cicero but from what I can see at Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicero he really wasn't all that big a deal.

He was NOT a founding father of our nation and while the beginning principals of democracy started with the Athena's it evolved much farther.

I am not sure your point in your post.Â*Â*Do you just want Cicero to have credit or something?Â*Â*Your quote has religious undertones but you said you don't want all topics to get religious.Â*Â*Are you saying you don't want topics to become "Christian"?Â*Â*I really don't know what you are expecting here...please explain.


btw Cicero was dead before Jesus of Nazareth was even born.Â*Â*How do you know that Cicero would not have been a Christian believer?Â*Â*He seems from your post to be a man of faith and not an atheist.Â*Â*He may have converted if he had lived 350 years later during Constantine's time.





That's it. I am out of here.

[Athena]

How do I know Cicero influenced the design of the US government? Because literate used to mean literate in Greek and Roman classics. I know this because I studied the history of education. It is amazing what can be learned through the study of history of education, begining in Athens and Sparta.

Sparta was the first military/socialist state. When males came of age they entered military service and lived in the barracks until retirement.
They did nothing but serve in the military, and their education was physical fitness and military arts. That is it, no choice, not personal interest. To assure this the state controlled all resources and the people had no money so they could not develop individual interest even if the wanted to.

When the Persians began invading, Athens had no money for defense and looked to Sparta as a model of citizen participation in service to the city/state. But Athens didn't want to go to the extreme of Sparta. They encouraged family life, and an economy of individual enterprise, and they educated for well rounded individual development in the arts.
Physical fittness was important, but so was the ability to speak, and music was considered essential to sound mental development. The US imitated Athens education, until the 1958 National Defense Education Act, which replaced liberal education with education for technology.

There is much more to say about education, but maybe that should be a different thread, and you can avice me which forum it should go under.

Basically a classic education means the Greek and Roman classics, and Cicero was one of the most important people to read about government matters. He is known for defending the republic of Rome, when the republic was being destroyed, much as the US republic is being destroyed today.

[Athena]

The God of Abraham is nothing like Cicero's understanding of God. Several of our forefathers rejected the traditional understanding of God in favor of Cicero's understanding of a God of Reason. Perhaps I should be more patient in explaining this, considering it is my life's purpose to inform people of the difference, and increase understanding of democracy. Note, the bible is a book of kings and slaves, not of a God of reason and democracy. Note, the God of Abraham is supernatural much like Zeus, and goes with a supernatural power of evil, Satan and demons; and the belief that it is possible to malnipulate God with prayers and acts of devotion. This God rules by whim, like kings of old could rule by whim. Maybe you please Him or maybe you displease Him even more? You can not be sure.

Beginning with Athens we have the belief that, reason, is the controlling force of the universe, made manifest in speech. Now we have the law of karma and know if we want good things to happen to us, we best act on that. Our fate isn't up to the whims of a God, but is the consequence of our own doing.

The Law are the laws of this God of reason. That is universal laws and includes nature, math and physics, and all things of cause and effect. It isn't demons that make us sick, but bacteria and viruses, and Jesus was wrong when he said it isn't necessary to wash our hands before eating. Really, have you ever counted demons coming out of a person, or would you chose a witch doctor to take care of the demons that make you ill, over a regular doctor who studied medicine? The God of Abraham and evolved religion (Christianity and Islam) is not a God of Reason as Cicero and our Deist forefathers understood God.

What we value is due to a belief in this God or Reason, that ended superstition for enough people to make an important difference. The difference science has made since people started looking for the cause of disease, instead of believing disease is caused by God, Satan or demons. See the important secular difference? Science is to democracy, what the bible is autocracy. I use to think we could tolerate religions, but with the Christian Right making very bad government policy and fundamentalist Christians supporting a war against Muslims and blindly supporting Israelis at the expense of Palestinians, and the rapid of loss of liberty we are witnessing today, I don't think we can tolerate religion based on myth any more. I get real crazy when all people can talk about is religion, and they know nothing of other world views. This is poisonous to our minds and dangerous to the world.

[Labrocca]

Saying Cicero was influential on our founding fathers is like saying Mozart was influential on Eminem. Yeah there is a connection if you want to trace it back and back and back. But it's so thin. You seem really well educated and that's great but that doesn't mean you are better than the rest of us with opinions.

It can be argued all day long the positive and negative effects on religion. But do you really think religion will ever cease to exist? It's part of our humanity. Every culture in the world has a religion even if it's not Christianity. All cultures have a belief system in some type of divinity. Whether it's the indians, asians, africans or euro's.

I think the acceptance of others beliefs is more the problem. A level of tolerance for things different is needed. America has more tolerance than almost anywhere else on Earth.


The topic of this thread is that you feel America's in trouble because it's not following the example of Cicero. Can you show me examples of the founding fathers speaking of Cicero that would make you believe they even knew he existed?

[Drocket]

I don't consider myself a particularly knowlegable student of history, but even I know that Jefferson was a major fan of Cicero:

Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 B.C.) Roman philosopher, orator, and statesman, was Jefferson's favorite classical scholar. Jefferson is believed to have modeled his own life on Cicero's love of study and aristocratic country life. Most of Jefferson's Ciceronian extracts are from the Tusculan Disputations a discourse or dialogue about pain, grief, and the necessity of coming to grips with death. Jefferson owned more than forty Cicero titles during his life. (http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/jefflib.html)

[Labrocca]

Well there ya go then.

[Athena]

Saying Cicero was influential on our founding fathers is like saying Mozart was influential on Eminem.Â*Â*Yeah there is a connection if you want to trace it back and back and back.Â*Â*But it's so thin.Â*Â*You seem really well educated and that's great but that doesn't mean you are better than the rest of us with opinions.

It can be argued all day long the positive and negative effects on religion. But do you really think religion will ever cease to exist?Â*Â*It's part of our humanity. Every culture in the world has a religion even if it's not Christianity. All cultures have a belief system in some type of divinity. Whether it's the indians, asians, africans or euro's.

I think the acceptance of others beliefs is more the problem.Â*Â*A level of tolerance for things different is needed.Â*Â*America has more tolerance than almost anywhere else on Earth.


The topic of this thread is that you feel America's in trouble because it's not following the example of Cicero.Â*Â*Can you show me examples of the founding fathers speaking of Cicero that would make you believe they even knew he existed?


The fourms are titled Democracy Forums.Â*Â*Do you know about the origin of democracy in Athens?Â*Â*Do you know its history through Rome?Â*Â*How about the philosophers during the Age of Enlightenment who were literate in Greek and Roman classics?Â*Â*Please help me here.Â*Â*What made the USA unique was it was started after there was literacy in Greek and Roman classics and knowledge of them is essential to having a democracy.Â*Â*Religion will not generate democracy without such literacracy.Â*Â*What was anyone thinking to start a Democracy Forum with evidently no knowledge of democracy?Â*Â*Come on, what is happening here?Â*Â*Why did the forums get named Democracy Forums?Â*Â* And you all go to war under a President who says the US is spreading democracy, when the people know Christianity and only Christianity and know what about democracy?Â*Â*How can they spread something they don't know themselves?Â*Â*

The importance is being a democracy and not a police state, which the USA is becoming.Â*Â*Christianity will support a police state such as Nazi controlled Germany, not a democracy, because it is not knowledge of democracy.Â*Â*Germany was the Holy Roman Empire, so named to separate it from Rome when Rome as too weak to rule. Germany is where the Protestant Reformation movement began. It was not lack of Christianity that made Germany our enemy in two world wars. It is philoosophy opposed to Greek philosophy. Hegel instead of Socrates.

[Robodoon]

The democracy of the US is threaten because the citizens have forgotten the Greek and Roman begins of democracy.Â*Â*Cicero a Roman statesman was one of the most influential people in the oraganization of the US democratic republic.Â*Â*He studied in Athens, so it is the Ahtenian understanding of the gods and reason, that is the foundation of what Cicero believes is right and the United States early documents.Â*Â*Would anyone care to comment about this?

..."And reason, when it is full grown and perfected, is rightly called wisdom.Â*Â*Therefore, since there is nothing better than reason, and since it exists both in man and God, the first possession of man and God, is reason.Â*Â*But those who have reason in common must also have right reason in common.Â*Â*And since right reason is Law, we must believe that men have Law also in common with gods.Â*Â*Further, those who share Law must also share Justice; and those who share these are to be regarded as members of the same Commonwealth.Â*Â*If indeed they obey the same authorities and powers, this is true in a far greater degree; but as a matter of fact they do obey this celestial system, the divine mind, and the God of transcendent power.Â*Â*Hence we must now conceive of this whole universe as one commonwealth of which both gods and men are members.

Out of all the material of the philosophers' discussions , surely there comes nothing more valuable than the full realization that we are born for Justice, and that right is based, not upon men's opinions, but upon nature."......Â*Â* CiceroÂ*Â*


The USA isn't a Democracy, its a Republic.

Is America a Republic or a Democracy?

I know it as a Republic…but I’m told by leaders and when I was in school and on my Nightly News today….that this is a Democracy.

But why would I think this was a Republic and not a Democracy?
Certainly the ideas of democracy dwell within a Republic…but the ideas of a Republic do not dwell within a Democracy. ( or maybe I don’t understand )

Where has this confusion come from? Why do some of us have a problem with this…can’t we all just get along…

but


Has the Definition of Democracy been changed over the years?

- Democracy
A goverment of the masses.
Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of 'direct' expression.
Results in mobocracy.
Attitude toward property is communistic - negating property rights.
Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate,... without restraint or regard to consequences.
Results in demagogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.
Army Training Manual Concerning Citizenship 1928

And the Words of old wisdom [Federalist papers]
From this view of the subject it may be concluded that a pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction. A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions.


http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/federalist/

People who support Democracy support slavery, not freedom.

[Labrocca]

The fourms are titled Democracy Forums.Â*Â*Do you know about the origin of democracy in Athens?Â*Â*Do you know its history through Rome?Â*Â*How about the philosophers during the Age of Enlightenment who were literate in Greek and Roman classics?Â*Â*Please help me here.Â*Â*What made the USA unique was it was started after there was literacy in Greek and Roman classics and knowledge of them is essential to having a democracy.Â*Â*Religion will not generate democracy without such literacracy.Â*Â*What was anyone thinking to start a Democracy Forum with evidently no knowledge of democracy?Â*Â*Come on, what is happening here?Â*Â*Why did the forums get named Democracy Forums?Â*Â* And you all go to war under a President who says the US is spreading democracy, when the people know Christianity and only Christianity and know what about democracy?Â*Â*How can they spread something they don't know themselves?Â*


Ugh...this is from an encyclopedia.


democracy [Gr.,=rule of the people], term originating in ancient Greece to designate a government where the people share in directing the activities of the state, as distinct from governments controlled by a single class, select group, or autocrat. The definition of democracy has been expanded, however, to describe a philosophy that insists on the right and the capacity of a people, acting either directly or through representatives, to control their institutions for their own purposes. Such a philosophy places a high value on the equality of individuals and would free people as far as possible from restraints not self-imposed. It insists that necessary restraints be imposed only by the consent of the majority and that they conform to the principle of equality.


Also Democracy has this definition:


1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
4. Majority rule.
5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.


IMHO that definition is why this is Democracy Forums. This is not ancient Greece from 2000+ years ago. This is a modern day internet forums where people discuss the definition of democracy as listed above. I know you are great with the history and all but the past does not define the future...it is only a marker.

[Robodoon]

The fourms are titled Democracy Forums.Â*Â*Do you know about the origin of democracy in Athens?Â*Â*Do you know its history through Rome?Â*Â*How about the philosophers during the Age of Enlightenment who were literate in Greek and Roman classics?Â*Â*Please help me here.Â*Â*What made the USA unique was it was started after there was literacy in Greek and Roman classics and knowledge of them is essential to having a democracy.Â*Â*Religion will not generate democracy without such literacracy.Â*Â*What was anyone thinking to start a Democracy Forum with evidently no knowledge of democracy?Â*Â*Come on, what is happening here?Â*Â*Why did the forums get named Democracy Forums?Â*Â* And you all go to war under a President who says the US is spreading democracy, when the people know Christianity and only Christianity and know what about democracy?Â*Â*How can they spread something they don't know themselves?Â*


Ugh...this is from an encyclopedia.


democracy [Gr.,=rule of the people], term originating in ancient Greece to designate a government where the people share in directing the activities of the state, as distinct from governments controlled by a single class, select group, or autocrat. The definition of democracy has been expanded, however, to describe a philosophy that insists on the right and the capacity of a people, acting either directly or through representatives, to control their institutions for their own purposes. Such a philosophy places a high value on the equality of individuals and would free people as far as possible from restraints not self-imposed. It insists that necessary restraints be imposed only by the consent of the majority and that they conform to the principle of equality.


Also Democracy has this definition:


1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
4. Majority rule.
5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.


IMHO that definition is why this is Democracy Forums.Â*Â*This is not ancient Greece from 2000+ years ago. This is a modern day internet forums where people discuss the definition of democracy as listed above.Â*Â*I know you are great with the history and all but the past does not define the future...it is only a marker.


The definitions of democracy has changed in the last hundrend years.
Our founders HATED DEMOCRACY, it brings slavery.

[Athena]

The democracy of the US is threaten because the citizens have forgotten the Greek and Roman begins of democracy.Â*Â*Cicero a Roman statesman was one of the most influential people in the oraganization of the US democratic republic.Â*Â*He studied in Athens, so it is the Ahtenian understanding of the gods and reason, that is the foundation of what Cicero believes is right and the United States early documents.Â*Â*Would anyone care to comment about this?

..."And reason, when it is full grown and perfected, is rightly called wisdom.Â*Â*Therefore, since there is nothing better than reason, and since it exists both in man and God, the first possession of man and God, is reason.Â*Â*But those who have reason in common must also have right reason in common.Â*Â*And since right reason is Law, we must believe that men have Law also in common with gods.Â*Â*Further, those who share Law must also share Justice; and those who share these are to be regarded as members of the same Commonwealth.Â*Â*If indeed they obey the same authorities and powers, this is true in a far greater degree; but as a matter of fact they do obey this celestial system, the divine mind, and the God of transcendent power.Â*Â*Hence we must now conceive of this whole universe as one commonwealth of which both gods and men are members.

Out of all the material of the philosophers' discussions , surely there comes nothing more valuable than the full realization that we are born for Justice, and that right is based, not upon men's opinions, but upon nature."......Â*Â* CiceroÂ*Â*


The USA isn't a Democracy, its a Republic.

Is America a Republic or a Democracy?

I know it as a Republic…but I’m told by leaders and when I was in school and on my Nightly News today….that this is a Democracy.

But why would I think this was a Republic and not a Democracy?
Certainly the ideas of democracy dwell within a Republic…but the ideas of a Republic do not dwell within a Democracy. ( or maybe I don’t understand )

Where has this confusion come from? Why do some of us have a problem with this…can’t we all just get along…

but


Has the Definition of Democracy been changed over the years?

- Democracy
A goverment of the masses.
Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of 'direct' expression.
Results in mobocracy.
Attitude toward property is communistic - negating property rights.
Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate,... without restraint or regard to consequences.
Results in demagogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.
Army Training Manual Concerning Citizenship 1928

And the Words of old wisdom [Federalist papers]
From this view of the subject it may be concluded that a pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction. A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions.


http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/federalist/

People who support Democracy support slavery, not freedom.



The USA educated for a democratic society until 1958, and now it is becoming what it fought against. You know, that Christian, Republic, Fascist, Germany. You have made some prejudice statements, and do not appear very literate, so it is pointless arguing with you.

[Athena]

The fourms are titled Democracy Forums.Â*Â*Do you know about the origin of democracy in Athens?Â*Â*Do you know its history through Rome?Â*Â*How about the philosophers during the Age of Enlightenment who were literate in Greek and Roman classics?Â*Â*Please help me here.Â*Â*What made the USA unique was it was started after there was literacy in Greek and Roman classics and knowledge of them is essential to having a democracy.Â*Â*Religion will not generate democracy without such literacracy.Â*Â*What was anyone thinking to start a Democracy Forum with evidently no knowledge of democracy?Â*Â*Come on, what is happening here?Â*Â*Why did the forums get named Democracy Forums?Â*Â* And you all go to war under a President who says the US is spreading democracy, when the people know Christianity and only Christianity and know what about democracy?Â*Â*How can they spread something they don't know themselves?Â*


Ugh...this is from an encyclopedia.


democracy [Gr.,=rule of the people], term originating in ancient Greece to designate a government where the people share in directing the activities of the state, as distinct from governments controlled by a single class, select group, or autocrat. The definition of democracy has been expanded, however, to describe a philosophy that insists on the right and the capacity of a people, acting either directly or through representatives, to control their institutions for their own purposes. Such a philosophy places a high value on the equality of individuals and would free people as far as possible from restraints not self-imposed. It insists that necessary restraints be imposed only by the consent of the majority and that they conform to the principle of equality.


Also Democracy has this definition:


1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
4. Majority rule.
5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.


IMHO that definition is why this is Democracy Forums.Â*Â*This is not ancient Greece from 2000+ years ago. This is a modern day internet forums where people discuss the definition of democracy as listed above.Â*Â*I know you are great with the history and all but the past does not define the future...it is only a marker.


Note the argument that the USA is not a democracy. Was the communist USSR a democracy? How about fascist Germany?

What does morality have to do with liberty or a police state?

What does the law have to do with a God that is not the God of Abraham but a God of reason? How is good law determined? How does democracy work? How is liberty defended? How is a democracy manifest and defended?

[Labrocca]

The USA educated for a democratic society until 1958, and now it is becoming what it fought against.Â*Â*You know, that Christian, Republic, Fascist, Germany.Â*Â* You have made some prejudice statements, and do not appear very literate, so it is pointless arguing with you.Â*Â*


Sad you feel that I am below you so much you can't either debate me or educate me. I though your "democracy" was all about educating our current population about the true meaning. Am I to assume that I am hopeless since you feel it's pointless?

I find lots of your posts very educating about the history of democracy. However I don't fully agree that an ancient definition needs to apply to today. During the past week a lot of the discussions on the site has made me rethink a lot of things. One of them is my stance on the future of the world. I am getting more and more uneasy these past few years with the direction of things. I am not 17 anymore. I want a stable place for my kids to grow up in. I want freedoms for them. I want them to be educated. While it's true I am not literate..I feel I am intelligent. I was unable to attend higher education because of financial means. I guess since you no longer argue with me that I am a lost cause.

Oh well...time to go drive my pick-up truck, check out Nascar, and chew some tobacco. yuck yuck...

As for me having made prejudicial statements...don't we all.

[Labrocca]

What does morality have to do with liberty or a police state?Â*Â*



I have no idea why you brought up morality.Â*Â*I don't believe it was mentioned in the thread.

however...


1. The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.
2. A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct: religious morality; Christian morality.
3. Virtuous conduct.
4. A rule or lesson in moral conduct.


Only definition 2 brings up religion...however I don't see how morality is bad in a society. Basically it's a standard of what's right or wrong. We all have some sense of morality.

[Athena]

The fourms are titled Democracy Forums.Â*Â*Do you know about the origin of democracy in Athens?Â*Â*Do you know its history through Rome?Â*Â*How about the philosophers during the Age of Enlightenment who were literate in Greek and Roman classics?Â*Â*Please help me here.Â*Â*What made the USA unique was it was started after there was literacy in Greek and Roman classics and knowledge of them is essential to having a democracy.Â*Â*Religion will not generate democracy without such literacracy.Â*Â*What was anyone thinking to start a Democracy Forum with evidently no knowledge of democracy?Â*Â*Come on, what is happening here?Â*Â*Why did the forums get named Democracy Forums?Â*Â* And you all go to war under a President who says the US is spreading democracy, when the people know Christianity and only Christianity and know what about democracy?Â*Â*How can they spread something they don't know themselves?Â*


Ugh...this is from an encyclopedia.


democracy [Gr.,=rule of the people], term originating in ancient Greece to designate a government where the people share in directing the activities of the state, as distinct from governments controlled by a single class, select group, or autocrat. The definition of democracy has been expanded, however, to describe a philosophy that insists on the right and the capacity of a people, acting either directly or through representatives, to control their institutions for their own purposes. Such a philosophy places a high value on the equality of individuals and would free people as far as possible from restraints not self-imposed. It insists that necessary restraints be imposed only by the consent of the majority and that they conform to the principle of equality.


Also Democracy has this definition:


1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
4. Majority rule.
5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.


IMHO that definition is why this is Democracy Forums.Â*Â*This is not ancient Greece from 2000+ years ago. This is a modern day internet forums where people discuss the definition of democracy as listed above.Â*Â*I know you are great with the history and all but the past does not define the future...it is only a marker.


The definitions of democracy has changed in the last hundrend years.
Our founders HATED DEMOCRACY, it brings slavery.


Only some of them hated democracy. Jefferson stayed in politics to oppose those who would have ended the US democracy before it was established. When I get home to my books, I will provide information about the conflict between Hamilton and Jefferson that resulted in dividing the founding fathers between two parties. Much further down the line, the Bank of America had to fight laws that kept money tied up by the rick and prevented the common man from taking advantage of capitalism. The US has a few heroes and they were not the people who wrote the Federal Papers, and not the early big business men or bankers.

[Athena]

What are the principles and values of a Republic?Â*Â*

Here are "the ideals and procedures of democracy" promoted by public education, and quoted from the "Democracy Series" of text books used in public schools when we mobilized for war against the Christian German Republic.

1.Â*Â*Respect for the dignity and worth of the individual human personality.

2.Â*Â*Open opportunity for the individual.

3.Â*Â*Economic and social security.

4.Â*Â*The search for truth.

5.Â*Â*Free discussion; freedom of speech; freedom of the press.

6.Â*Â*Universal education.

7.Â*Â*The rule of the majority; the rights of the minority; the honest ballot.

8.Â*Â*Justice for the common man; trail by jury; arbitration of disputes; orderly legal processes; freedom from search and seizure; right to petition.

9.Â*Â*Freedom of religion.

10. Respect for the rights of private property.

11. The practice of the fundamental social virtues.

12.Â*Â*The responsibility of the individual to participate in the duties of democracy.

"Democracy is a way of life and social organization which above all others is sensitive to the dignity and worth of the individual human personality, affirming the fundamental moral and political equality of all men and recognizing no barrier of race, religion, of circumstance."Â*Â*(General Report of the Seminar on "What Is Democracy?"Â*Â*Congress on Education for Democracy, August, 1939.)

The previous definition of democracy omitted the most important element.Â*Â*The most important element of democracy is a search for truth.Â*Â*Democracy must have freedom of speech, but this is not the freedom to say anything we want to say, anywhere or at any time, because that leads to immorality.Â*Â*No, our freedom of speech is a morally restricted freedom of speech. It is a freedom to reason, as the Gods of ancient Athens, not a freedom to lie or insult, or insite hate crimes, etc.Â*Â*

Cicero's understanding of God and law is essential to understanding democracy is most importantly a search for truth and a good laws.Â*Â*Â*Â*

Look at how we are arguing about what democracy is, and then explan why we are in Iraq pushing democracy. We can not agree on what democracy is, so how can we push it on anyone?

[Labrocca]

I 100% agree with those 12 points.Â*Â*

#7 says that the rule of the majority...75% of the nation is Christian...so what does that mean?

#9 says freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion...

If you want to change this argument to WHY we are pushing democracy in Iraq and what that means let me know. I think it deserves a whole new thread though.


I want to make it clear that in my discussions with you don't assume my views.Â*Â*This is my forums and discussion is what I encourage.Â*Â*Often you should just consider me a devil's advocate.Â*Â*Don't consider everything I say or point out as something I actually believe. I don't want you to misunderstand my statements.Â*Â*I am not a Right-Wing-Christian.

Thanks for continuing the discussion for my ignorant butt.Â*Â*I truely do like your posts.

[Robodoon]

The democracy of the US is threaten because the citizens have forgotten the Greek and Roman begins of democracy.Â*Â*Cicero a Roman statesman was one of the most influential people in the oraganization of the US democratic republic.Â*Â*He studied in Athens, so it is the Ahtenian understanding of the gods and reason, that is the foundation of what Cicero believes is right and the United States early documents.Â*Â*Would anyone care to comment about this?

..."And reason, when it is full grown and perfected, is rightly called wisdom.Â*Â*Therefore, since there is nothing better than reason, and since it exists both in man and God, the first possession of man and God, is reason.Â*Â*But those who have reason in common must also have right reason in common.Â*Â*And since right reason is Law, we must believe that men have Law also in common with gods.Â*Â*Further, those who share Law must also share Justice; and those who share these are to be regarded as members of the same Commonwealth.Â*Â*If indeed they obey the same authorities and powers, this is true in a far greater degree; but as a matter of fact they do obey this celestial system, the divine mind, and the God of transcendent power.Â*Â*Hence we must now conceive of this whole universe as one commonwealth of which both gods and men are members.

Out of all the material of the philosophers' discussions , surely there comes nothing more valuable than the full realization that we are born for Justice, and that right is based, not upon men's opinions, but upon nature."......Â*Â* CiceroÂ*Â*


The USA isn't a Democracy, its a Republic.

Is America a Republic or a Democracy?

I know it as a Republic…but I’m told by leaders and when I was in school and on my Nightly News today….that this is a Democracy.

But why would I think this was a Republic and not a Democracy?
Certainly the ideas of democracy dwell within a Republic…but the ideas of a Republic do not dwell within a Democracy. ( or maybe I don’t understand )

Where has this confusion come from? Why do some of us have a problem with this…can’t we all just get along…

but


Has the Definition of Democracy been changed over the years?

- Democracy
A goverment of the masses.
Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of 'direct' expression.
Results in mobocracy.
Attitude toward property is communistic - negating property rights.
Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate,... without restraint or regard to consequences.
Results in demagogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.
Army Training Manual Concerning Citizenship 1928

And the Words of old wisdom [Federalist papers]
From this view of the subject it may be concluded that a pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction. A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions.


http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/federalist/

People who support Democracy support slavery, not freedom.



The USA educated for a democratic society until 1958, and now it is becoming what it fought against.Â*Â*You know, that Christian, Republic, Fascist, Germany.Â*Â* You have made some prejudice statements, and do not appear very literate, so it is pointless arguing with you.Â*Â*


Did you read the FEDERALIST PAPERS?

And yes the Germans were a Christian nation, but Hitler was not, he was occult like our president Bush. And the Christians were put to sleep with Romans 13, The Same thing is happening here, the US government is telling pastors that use Roman 13 to keep their flocks in line with the government, but its used out of Context. The Christians of Germany should have never followed Hitler because of Romans 13, it doesn't mean follow evil. Same is true in the USA, the Christians should not be following mr Bush, who's own Grandfather Funded Hitler and then Championed for the UN as a solution to future Hitlers. the German aren't a Christian nation any more, and Bush today is an Active Fascist under THIRD WAY which is active in the USA today.

[Robodoon]

The fourms are titled Democracy Forums.Â*Â*Do you know about the origin of democracy in Athens?Â*Â*Do you know its history through Rome?Â*Â*How about the philosophers during the Age of Enlightenment who were literate in Greek and Roman classics?Â*Â*Please help me here.Â*Â*What made the USA unique was it was started after there was literacy in Greek and Roman classics and knowledge of them is essential to having a democracy.Â*Â*Religion will not generate democracy without such literacracy.Â*Â*What was anyone thinking to start a Democracy Forum with evidently no knowledge of democracy?Â*Â*Come on, what is happening here?Â*Â*Why did the forums get named Democracy Forums?Â*Â* And you all go to war under a President who says the US is spreading democracy, when the people know Christianity and only Christianity and know what about democracy?Â*Â*How can they spread something they don't know themselves?Â*


Ugh...this is from an encyclopedia.


democracy [Gr.,=rule of the people], term originating in ancient Greece to designate a government where the people share in directing the activities of the state, as distinct from governments controlled by a single class, select group, or autocrat. The definition of democracy has been expanded, however, to describe a philosophy that insists on the right and the capacity of a people, acting either directly or through representatives, to control their institutions for their own purposes. Such a philosophy places a high value on the equality of individuals and would free people as far as possible from restraints not self-imposed. It insists that necessary restraints be imposed only by the consent of the majority and that they conform to the principle of equality.


Also Democracy has this definition:


1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
4. Majority rule.
5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.


IMHO that definition is why this is Democracy Forums.Â*Â*This is not ancient Greece from 2000+ years ago. This is a modern day internet forums where people discuss the definition of democracy as listed above.Â*Â*I know you are great with the history and all but the past does not define the future...it is only a marker.


The definitions of democracy has changed in the last hundrend years.
Our founders HATED DEMOCRACY, it brings slavery.


Only some of them hated democracy.Â*Â*Jefferson stayed in politics to oppose those who would have ended the US democracy before it was established.Â*Â*When I get home to my books, I will provide information about the conflict between Hamilton and Jefferson that resulted in dividing the founding fathers between two parties.Â*Â*Much further down the line, the Bank of America had to fight laws that kept money tied up by the rick and prevented the common man from taking advantage of capitalism.Â*Â*The US has a few heroes and they were not the people who wrote the Federal Papers, and not the early big business men or bankers.Â*Â*


The Banks are owned by one source today, offer shoots of the Federel Reserve via the BIS which is a private for profit bank, which has not reserves and isn't part of the US Government. And there is a big difference between a "Republic that has democracy" and a Straight Democracy which is nothing but Mob Rule...

[Athena]

Did you read the FEDERALIST PAPERS?

And yes the Germans were a Christian nation, but Hitler was not, he was occult like our president Bush. And the Christians were put to sleep with Romans 13, The Same thing is happening here, the US government is telling pastors that use Roman 13 to keep their flocks in line with the government, but its used out of Context. The Christians of Germany should have never followed Hitler because of Romans 13, it doesn't mean follow evil. Same is true in the USA, the Christians should not be following mr Bush, who's own Grandfather Funded Hitler and then Championed for the UN as a solution to future Hitlers. the German aren't a Christian nation any more, and Bush today is an Active Fascist under THIRD WAY which is active in the USA today.


It is wonderful to start of the day with a good laugh. There is just as much talk of Bush being a member of Skull and Bones and practicing occultism as there was talk of Hitler. However, what you said is right on. The US has become fascist, and this began occurring during the Great Depression, when many people thought fascism was the answer to economic problems, and industrial leaders rejected Deming's democratic model. The Bush boost of the US being the New World Order, did come right out of Germany. And in 1958 we replaced liberal education for the education that made Germany the first leader of the New World Order.

By Federalist Papers do you mean the ones beginning with Hamilton's defense of the union? I believe he was a monarchist and the main reason Jefferson stayed so active in politics.

I think our disagreement is really caused by you being a Christian and me not being a Christian. That bible is a book of kings of slaves, not a book for democracy. The belief system for democracy is distinctly different, and this may become more obvious if you defend Hamilton.

[Athena]

The Banks are owned by one source today, offer shoots of the Federel Reserve via the BIS which is a private for profit bank, which has not reserves and isn't part of the US Government. And there is a big difference between a "Republic that has democracy" and a Straight Democracy which is nothing but Mob Rule...

Now things are looking good. We might so meaningful after all.

I will start a thread for discussing the Federal Reserve.

Here the most important statement is "there is a big difference between a "Republic that has democracy" and a Straight Democracy which is nothing but Mob Rule". There is a serious difference between a Republic that teaches and therefore manifest democracy, and a Republic that does not. That difference is the USA of the past and the Germany the USA defended its democracy against. Since the USA replaced the education it had with the German model of education for technology, there is no difference from the Germany the USA defended against and what it is today.

[Athena]

democracy [Gr.,=rule of the people], term originating in ancient Greece to designate a government where the people share in directing the activities of the state, as distinct from governments controlled by a single class, select group, or autocrat. The definition of democracy has been expanded, however, to describe a philosophy that insists on the right and the capacity of a people, acting either directly or through representatives, to control their institutions for their own purposes. Such a philosophy places a high value on the equality of individuals and would free people as far as possible from restraints not self-imposed. It insists that necessary restraints be imposed only by the consent of the majority and that they conform to the principle of equality.

What bothers me about this encyclopedia explanation is the idea that our understanding of democracy is new.Â*Â*

When Athens determined to become a democracy, participation in political forums was mandatory, as it was in some early American religious colonies.Â* This how people came to understand the reasoning of the laws, and the laws became their laws, not laws made by a higher authority imposed on them. Â*Education was also considered very important, because this way of life demands a degree of education.Â*Â*It was recognized that people who didn't have property might not have the time or money they needed to meet their basic needs and still have time for education and politics, so Athens created paid government jobs for these people.Â*Â*

Their work projects included rebuilding Athena's temple and telling the world of this new democratic relationship with the gods in murals.Â*Â*Athens used this temple for Athena and a university, to attract people from the known world, and this was a great economic benefit to Athens. With people coming to Athens to learn, or to honor Athena, street vendors increased and so did their business, leading to a growing middle class.

Athens wanted to spread Hellism around the world and did so through education.Â*Â*Consider this like being Christian and wanting to spread the Good News.Â*Â*Only with democracy, the learning is not restricted to religion.Â* Democracy doesn't teach people what to think. It teachings them how to think. Socrates was most concerned with expanding consciousness and developing good reason, in pursuit of the highest morality.Â*Â*His thoughts are still good today, and we based our education system on Athens system until 1958.Â*Â*

Liberal education is preparing everyone to be as the gods. It prepared everyone to be civic or industrial leaders, by teaching about the world, training for logic and abstract thinking, and independent thinking. There are not right and wrong answers, but questions to assure the student understood concepts. This education manifest a completely different society from the education for technology and praising of efficiency and stressing technological correctness. History is important to understanding democracy and how the Prussians turned Germany into the military state, and how the USA comes to Bush's New World Order.

If we think all the good stuff is new and improved, we can be easily lead down the wrong path. Hail Hitler.

[Robodoon]

[quote]Did you read the FEDERALIST PAPERS?

And yes the Germans were a Christian nation, but Hitler was not, he was occult like our president Bush. And the Christians were put to sleep with Romans 13, The Same thing is happening here, the US government is telling pastors that use Roman 13 to keep their flocks in line with the government, but its used out of Context. The Christians of Germany should have never followed Hitler because of Romans 13, it doesn't mean follow evil. Same is true in the USA, the Christians should not be following mr Bush, who's own Grandfather Funded Hitler and then Championed for the UN as a solution to future Hitlers. the German aren't a Christian nation any more, and Bush today is an Active Fascist under THIRD WAY which is active in the USA today.


It is wonderful to start of the day with a good laugh. There is just as much talk of Bush being a member of Skull and Bones and practicing occultism as there was talk of Hitler. Â*
Sure because he belongs to basically the same groups, Bush even attends a Club that Hitler was a member of, here it is on film

And here is our leaders including our president attanding PAGAN RITES (devil rites) in Calif...on film. http://www.infowars.com/bg1.html
http://www.infowars.com/banners/bg_engraving.gif

And here is Bush on film saying he is a member of the bones and its Secret and he can't tell the American people about what goes on.
http://www.infowars.com/print/Secret_societies/kerry_bush_sb.htm



However, what you said is right on. The US has become fascist, and this began occurring during the Great Depression, when many people thought fascism was the answer to economic problems, and industrial leaders rejected Deming's democratic model. The Bush boost of the US being the New World Order, did come right out of Germany. And in 1958 we replaced liberal education for the education that made Germany the first leader of the New World Order. Its a bit older then that, Germany has definity been a part of it, but its much broader, but you do have some good points.

By Federalist Papers do you mean the ones beginning with Hamilton's defense of the union? I believe he was a monarchist and the main reason Jefferson stayed so active in politics.

I was more pointing to the point about democracy, not the whole thing.

I think our disagreement is really caused by you being a Christian and me not being a Christian. That bible is a book of kings of slaves, not a book for democracy. The bible doesn't support slavery.
And Democracy brings slavery...its Mob Rule. So in a democracy, the majority can tell the minority, you will be slaves...thats Democracy.
We are a Constitutional Republic.
Democracy is 3 wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch.
A Constitutional Republic is 3 wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch, but there are laws against eating sheep and the sheep are armed.


The belief system for democracy is distinctly different, and this may become more obvious if you defend Hamilton.

My point is democracy on its own brings ruin....it is a weak and unbalenced system, which always ends with trouble.

[Robodoon]

The Banks are owned by one source today, offer shoots of the Federel Reserve via the BIS which is a private for profit bank, which has not reserves and isn't part of the US Government. And there is a big difference between a "Republic that has democracy" and a Straight Democracy which is nothing but Mob Rule...

Now things are looking good.Â*Â*We might so meaningful after all.

I will start a thread for discussing the Federal Reserve.

Here the most important statement is "there is a big difference between a "Republic that has democracy" and a Straight Democracy which is nothing but Mob Rule".Â*Â*There is a serious difference between a Republic that teaches and therefore manifest democracy, and a Republic that does not.Â*Â*That difference is the USA of the past and the Germany the USA defended its democracy against.Â*Â*Since the USA replaced the education it had with the German model of education for technology, there is no difference from the Germany the USA defended against and what it is today.Â*Â*





Well today the masters of Germany and the USA are the same.

Since you like Education talk, you might like this.

http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/ (http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/)

This goes into how the USA took on the Soviet Ed system under Reagan.

[Robodoon]

democracy [Gr.,=rule of the people], term originating in ancient Greece to designate a government where the people share in directing the activities of the state, as distinct from governments controlled by a single class, select group, or autocrat. The definition of democracy has been expanded, however, to describe a philosophy that insists on the right and the capacity of a people, acting either directly or through representatives, to control their institutions for their own purposes. Such a philosophy places a high value on the equality of individuals and would free people as far as possible from restraints not self-imposed. It insists that necessary restraints be imposed only by the consent of the majority and that they conform to the principle of equality.

What bothers me about this encyclopedia explanation is the idea that our understanding of democracy is new.Â*Â*

When Athens determined to become a democracy, participation in political forums was mandatory, as it was in some early American religious colonies.Â* This how people came to understand the reasoning of the laws, and the laws became their laws, not laws made by a higher authority imposed on them.Â*Â*Â*Education was also considered very important, because this way of life demands a degree of education.Â*Â*It was recognized that people who didn't have property might not have the time or money they needed to meet their basic needs and still have timeÂ*Â*for education and politics, so Athens created paid government jobs for these people.Â*Â*

Their work projects included rebuilding Athena's temple and telling the world of this new democratic relationship with the gods in murals.Â*Â*Athens used this temple for Athena and a university, to attract people from the known world, and this was a great economic benefit to Athens.Â*Â*With people coming to Athens to learn, or to honor Athena, street vendors increased and so did their business, leading to a growing middle class.

Athens wanted to spread Hellism around the world and did so through education.Â*Â*Consider this like being Christian and wanting to spread the Good News.Â*Â*Only with democracy, the learning is not restricted to religion.Â* Democracy doesn't teach people what to think.Â*Â*It teachings them how to think.Â*Â*Socrates was most concerned with expanding consciousness and developing good reason, in pursuit of the highest morality.Â*Â*His thoughts are still good today, and we based our education system on Athens system until 1958.Â*Â*

Liberal education is preparing everyone to be as the gods.Â*Â*It prepared everyone to be civic or industrial leaders, by teaching about the world, training for logic and abstract thinking, and independent thinking.Â*Â*There are not right and wrong answers, but questions to assure the student understood concepts.Â*Â*This education manifest a completely different society from the education for technology and praising of efficiency and stressing technological correctness.Â*Â*History is important to understanding democracy and how the Prussians turned Germany into the military state, and how the USA comes to Bush's New World Order.Â*Â*

If we think all the good stuff is new and improved, we can be easily lead down the wrong path.Â*Â*Hail Hitler.


good points / disagree on some of it .

[Athena]

"The bible doesn't support slavery".

Evidently you don't remember Mark Twain and the history of the South in the United States.Â*Â*The South used the bible to support slavery, and consider Mark Twain and Tom Sawyer's fear of God when helping a slave escape.Â*Â*

Leviticus makes it very clear that Jewish men can own slaves and pass them on to their children, and they can sell their daughters into slavery, but they can not to be slave themselves because of their special relationship with God.Â*Â*God reward Solmon with slaves.Â*Â*Any old testament statement against slavery is only against male Jews being slaves.Â*Â*

[Athena]

Well today the masters of Germany and the USA are the same.

Since you like Education talk, you might like this.

http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/ (http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/)

This goes into how the USA took on the Soviet Ed system under Reagan.


I am aware of the book and several more as this has been a special subject of study for me every since the USA announced a nation youth crisis. Should we start a New World Order Education thread?

[Athena]

=Robodoon]

The USA isn't a Democracy, its a Republic.

Is America a Republic or a Democracy?

I know it as a Republic…but I’m told by leaders and when I was in school and on my Nightly News today….that this is a Democracy.

But why would I think this was a Republic and not a Democracy?
Certainly the ideas of democracy dwell within a Republic…but the ideas of a Republic do not dwell within a Democracy. ( or maybe I don’t understand )

Where has this confusion come from? Why do some of us have a problem with this…can’t we all just get along…

but


Has the Definition of Democracy been changed over the years?

- Democracy
A goverment of the masses.
Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of 'direct' expression.
Results in mobocracy.
Attitude toward property is communistic - negating property rights.
Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate,... without restraint or regard to consequences.
Results in demagogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.
Army Training Manual Concerning Citizenship 1928

And the Words of old wisdom [Federalist papers]
[quote]From this view of the subject it may be concluded that a pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction. A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions.

http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/federalist/

People who support Democracy support slavery, not freedom.

Do you read anything or just keep parroting the same few lines? The Federalist Papers were prejudiced against democracy by those who prefered monarchy and they did not win this debate.

If we do not have domcracy, we loose our liberty and freedom.Â*Â*

"In the past, personal and political liberty depended to a considerable extent upon governmental inefficiency.Â*Â*The spirit of tyranny was always more than willing; but its organization and material equipment were generally weak.Â*Â*Progressive science and technology have changed all this completely."Â*Â*Aldous Huxley

At no time in the history of humanity has the power of the people to control their government, been more important than it is today, and you are standing this against this.Â*Â*Why?