*Why High Education Can Get You Dead And Not Hired*

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But sometimes higher education can get you killed.
2. After last week we are realizing it as a fact.
3. Sure this kind of thing doesn't happen everyday.
4. But how is it we can't protect these kids?
5. Who's responsibility is it to protect these kids?
6. Can they be protected?
7. Can we take out problem kids for the betterment of the whole student body?
8. Is it fair to say to a problem child, *Your Done*.
9. Will that protect the kids if we do that?
10. Will it make it happen more often?
11. All these questions answered and a bag of chips, right here on DF.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Buck Laser]

That's it. I'm sending all my diplomas back on Monday.:(

[NortheastCynic]

I've sent Northeastern a letter detailing my de-enrollment.

Safety at last.

-NC

[Sugar]

Thats an extreme reactions. Would any one stop travelling just because there was an accident on the highway or will you stop eating if on a day you had an upset stomach.

This was and ugly incident and is best forgotten as an accident. However Govt. must tighten its belts and campus security so that there is no repition of such acts in the future.

[Nitrus]

Although "8." is quite thought provoking, I dont in any way think, that they were killed because of Higher Education. Unless Cho Seung Hi was taught how to kill people??? Which I doubt.

However, going back to "8.", that is the question that everyone is asking at the moment, i mean, there was nothing they could do, this isnt Minority Report, you cant arrest someone for a crime they are likely to commit in the future. And what were the police supposed to do? Ask him not to do it? Pfft, truth be told, there is no proper protection from people like him, apart from getting him some psychiatric help, but that would have been based on his writings, which could have just been him being "creative" and didnt neccesarily show that he was a violent psychopath.

Thoughts?

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But we are seeing, *The Universities*, looking into how to deal with these rough students.
2. Looks like they need a secret *Arms Handler*.
3. In every class room.
4. Kind of like what we do in the skies now.
5. On board *Air Marshals*.
6. Teach these students *Desk Marshals*, to carry secretly, and not cause alarm.
6.a) If anyone goes nutjob, at least there are these *Desk Marshals* in place to take these terrorists out!
7. Here's a link:
http://blog.nola.com/times-picayune/2007/04/local_colleges_review_policies.html
"
Local colleges review policies on disturbed students
Posted by By John Pope, Staff writer April 21, 2007 10:43PM
Categories: Breaking News
Even on a college campus, where eccentric behavior is as much a part of life as tattered blue jeans, this student stood out.

The young man believed he was God, and he didn't care who heard his thunderous declarations, said Cynthia Cherrey, Tulane University's vice president for student affairs. He trashed his dormitory room, emptying drawers and yanking the sheets off the bed.

His actions got attention, not only from horrified classmates but also from staff members who had been trained to watch for such behavior, said Cherrey, who cited confidentiality requirements in declining to identify the student or his school, except to say it wasn't Tulane.

Because people on campus were vigilant, the student was hospitalized, and he was diagnosed with schizophrenia. His family took him home in what the college called an "involuntary withdrawal," Cherrey said.

Cherrey's case study, offered amid national anguish over the deadly rampage by a student at Virginia Tech, is how such situations are supposed to work out: a combination of cooperation and heightened alertness in an atmosphere of relative calm and discretion.


In the wake of Monday's 32 killings and gunman Cho Seung-Hui's suicide in Virginia, counselors and psychologists at local colleges are reviewing their protocols for dealing with mentally distressed students to determine what they might need to do to spot and treat students with emotional problems and make campuses as safe as possible.

"This is like 9/11 for universities," said David Hayes, a clinical psychologist with Louisiana State University's Mental Health Service in Baton Rouge.

"There's going to be a period of shock," he said. "People are going to think about security. ... Mass murder happens about as often as snow in southern Louisiana, but when it does happen, it's so painful and destructive and dramatic that people start to think we need these things in place for a lot of reasons. ... I'm hearing buzz that people are trying to figure out what to do to protect the community."

As part of the process, behavioral experts have stressed the importance of watching for conduct that might seem psychotic and ensuring that help is available as early as possible for people who need it.

But how to determine what behavior is unusual and what constitutes a harbinger of destructive outburst?

In Cho's case, one symptom of his evidently worsening psychosis was neatly typed and submitted to a professor: snippets of theatrical dialogue so violent and perverse that students became afraid to share a classroom with him. More typically, indicators of emotional distress are harder to read or are excused as a kind of creative agony that may lead to work of genuine artistic worth.

"There's no exact science," said Cherrey, who has a background in counseling.

"But," she said, "there are changes that you look for, such as a change in behavior or a student who is isolating himself or herself. On an extreme, look at behavior that's a threat to the student or a threat to others."

These warning signs can include a change in behavior, difficulty concentrating, a dramatic drop in grades, notable changes in appearance, excessive aggressiveness and disruptive behavior, said Joy Osofsky, professor of pediatrics and psychiatry at LSU Health Sciences Center in New Orleans.

Cho, for example, had drawn harassment complaints from two Virginia Tech women.

Other signs can include examples of disproportionate behavior, such as sobbing over a bad grade or screaming at someone who took a desired seat, said Vera Triplett, director of the Thomas E. Chambers Counseling and Training Center at Our Lady of Holy Cross College.

"While that may not indicate that a person would kill someone, it does indicate that he might need to be examined," said Triplett, who holds a doctorate in counselor education.

At Loyola University, reports about students who exhibit such behavior are reviewed regularly. Once a week, representatives gather from an array of departments, including residential life, which runs the dormitories; university ministry; and judicial affairs, which is responsible for campus disciplinary matters, said Alicia Bourque, Loyola's interim director of counseling and career services.

At each meeting, members determine what needs to be done. While participants may dismiss some incidents as innocuous, they may regard others as serious enough to warrant follow-up with the students involved and, perhaps, a recommendation that they seek professional help.

Bourque, who has a doctorate in counseling psychology, is part of the review panel. But, she said, confidentiality rules prevent her from disclosing at these sessions whether any of the students under discussion already have come to her for help.

Several colleges offer workshops for faculty and staff members to help them recognize signs that students are in distress.

"The faculty are our eyes and ears," Bourque said. "This is not to say it's going to prevent everything, but at least you'll have an eye out there."

Part of this training needs to enforce the importance of distinguishing a crank from a threat, Osofsky said, adding, "There are a lot of people walking around with emotional problems, and they don't shoot people."

This emphasis on the potential for violence may require re-education for some people, Hayes said, because violence generally is foreign to campus life.

"The protective devices aren't in place for something like this," he said. "A university ought to be a place where there's a certain amount of innocence. The good faith of everyone is sort of taken for granted."

Such an environment makes a campus an ideal spot for savagery like Cho's, said Hayes, a Navy veteran who has served in Kuwait and Iraq.

"If you want to hurt somebody, going to a university is like going to a day-care center," he said.

But this easygoing environment is populated by young men and women who are going through a period of their lives when changes in brain chemistry can make chronic psychological disorders such as schizophrenia become evident, Triplett said.

The stress of being in college and being away from home for the first time can make such conditions worse, she said, particularly for young people whose response to their emotional difficulties is to withdraw from contact with others.

"Not everyone is equipped with a support mechanism," Triplett said.

The outcome most commonly of concern to counselors and friends of troubled students is suicide. According to the American College Health Association's national survey from last year, 16 percent of the 95,000 students who were polled said they had felt so depressed that they had difficulty functioning.

The report, which covered 117 campuses, also showed that more than 9 percent had considered suicide seriously and that 1 percent, nearly 1,000 young men and women, had tried to kill themselves.

But some students, Cho among them, respond to their inner turmoil by lashing out at others. For that reason, professors who note depression, a failure to communicate or writing that shows a tendency toward violence or aggressive behavior, traits Cho manifested, are being told to urge students to seek help and, perhaps, accompany them, said Barbara Mitchell, director of the University of New Orleans' Counseling Services.

That's as far as a mental-health professional can go if nothing more than thoughts of violence are involved, said Chris Brownson, a psychologist who directs the Counseling & Mental Health Center at the University of Texas at Austin.

"There's nothing that can be done if nobody has broken a law," Mitchell said. "It has to be an imminent danger, or you can't take away somebody's rights. You can't take away their rights because they might do something in the future."

Given those conditions, "it appears as if the (Virginia Tech) counseling-center folks did all they could do," she said. "I can't think that they did anything they shouldn't have done or that they didn't do something that they could have done."

At this point in the process, confidentiality must prevail, Brownson said, because it's a matter between the client and counselor.

However, all that changes if a counselor believes someone poses a direct, likely threat. At that point, the rule of confidentiality no longer applies, he said, because mental-health professionals must tell police. They can also arrange for an immediate intervention, which can include hospitalization in a mental-health facility for 72 hours for an assessment, said Mitchell, who has a doctorate in social work.

The system isn't foolproof, as the Virginia Tech rampage proved. Even though Cho seemed serious enough to warrant police attention and brief confinement in a psychiatric facility, he was discharged within days. Whether his hospitalization should have disqualified Cho from buying a gun is open to debate.

Determining when the possibility of violence seems imminent involves a balancing act, Brownson said. "We're very invested in wanting to protect our communities when danger is present, but we want to be sure that people in need feel safe about coming to us to talk about themselves and be sure we're going to respect their confidentiality and help them."

As colleges struggle to deal with troubled students, Hayes said, they might consider making a psychological evaluation an enrollment requirement and retaining a specialist who can handle people like Cho whose problems are beyond the capability of the personnel at the campus health center.

Such policy changes, Hayes said, would help to ensure appropriate responses to needy students while also protecting the school and everyone in it.

"Communities deserve to have someone looking out for them," he said.

"
Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[NortheastCynic]

Thats an extreme reactions. Would any one stop travelling just because there was an accident on the highway or will you stop eating if on a day you had an upset stomach.
I was being sarcastic.

Chess, all that I think needs to happen, and what I think is being overlooked is a competant administration simply must act quicker than Va Tech. Virginia Tech's administration had several opportunities to prevent this massacre from happening but either couldn't [do to restrictions placed on it as a public school] or didn't. No wide, sweeping changes need to be made, schools just need to stop being lax with rules and regulations, especially those pertaining to campus safety.

-NC

[bluchap]

Well its the free availability of arms to the students which result in such tragedies. If you need to stop these from happening again, the source of illicit arms needs to be quashed. There is not other option. Period.

[micfranklin]

So, because of that one incident last week higher education can automatically lead to death?

[Stoner]

You know what I love about Chess? His posts are intentionally chalked full of sarcasm and the libs on this board take the bait every single time. It's classic.

[Buck Laser]

You know what I love about Chess? His posts are intentionally chalked full of sarcasm and the libs on this board take the bait every single time. It's classic.


Wull, I don't know about you, but I just got receipts and rebates back from all the collidges what gave me thim degrees. I'm gonna go buy me a pickemup and a bass boat with a BIG cooler now that I don't hav ta think them heavey thughts no more. Life is much beter know.

[Elrathin]

You know what I love about Chess? His posts are intentionally chalked full of sarcasm and the libs on this board take the bait every single time. It's classic.


Take the bait? More like pointing out exactly how idiotic his and your posts are.

[Stoner]

Take the bait?Â*Â*More like pointing out exactly how idiotic his and your posts are.


More like hook, line and sinker. He gets a trophy catch with every post. Freakin awesome!

[Elrathin]

More like hook, line and sinker. He gets a trophy catch with every post. Freakin awesome!


Sure thing there slick, acting like a child is awesome to you I guess. Please carry on your childishness as usual.

Maybe when you actually want to debate something here instead of acting like a moron, come on back.

[nmspl]

It is a irony of fate that the 33 innocent persons were massacared at the educational institution. They must have never dreamt that their stay for higher education will leave them dead instead of getting proper jobs in future.

But such incidents are such that they cannot be generalised to state that higher education will lead to death and not jobs. the staement is an absurd statement.

[Professor]

4. But how is it we can't protect these kids?
5. Who’s responsibility is it to protect these kids?
6. Can they be protected?
7. Can we take out problem kids for the betterment of the whole student body?
8. Is it fair to say to a problem child, *Your Done*.
9. Will that protect the kids if we do that?
10. Will it make it happen more often?


These are good questions. I don't think you can just pull a kid out of school without explanation if you suspect something is wrong. It would violate the kid's rights. I think you would have to have some sort of proof. Maybe setting up some sort of "court" in the college would help. Just like police can't go through your house without getting a search warrant from a judge there would need to be some sort of probable cause to kick the kid out, or even consider kicking the kid out.

I think we need to look to the public high schools. They deal with mentally ill children and have to continue to educate them. My sister is severely bipolar and hasn't been a fulltime student since her 7th grade. She is going to be 18 in a month. She had to be hospitalized and the school gave her a tutor. She currently goes when she can and the school has set up an alternative schedule for her.

I think a large part of the problem is the lack of mental health facilities. My college advertised their services after the VTech shootings. They offer 30 visits, per college career. So 30 visits over my 4 years there. Though 30 might help, I don't think it would be enough to cure or significantly change someone like Cho Seung-Hui.


2. Looks like they need a secret *Arms Handler*.
3. In every class room.
4. Kind of like what we do in the skies now.
5. On board *Air Marshals*.
6. Teach these students *Desk Marshals*, to carry secretly, and not cause alarm.
6.a) If anyone goes nutjob, at least there are these *Desk Marshals* in place to take these terrorists out!


I have a couple of problems with this idea. Isn't security already in place at college campuses? Wouldn't they fill the need of "desk marshalls?" Also, by putting fake students in you are taking up room from the real students. This will mean fewer students can get into the classroom because there are fewer seats. And now there are more employees, which means in addition to taking a financial cut the college is also doling more money out.

Let's say you have a building with 100 rooms, 20 seats per room. All students pay $20,000 per year to go there. So in building you have $40,000,000 of pure profit (we won't count the professors since they will make the math harder when dealing with tenured, part time, full time, associate, ect).

Now we add one desk marshal per room. Desk Marshals are paid $50,000 a year. So you have 100 rooms, 100 desk marshals. That makes for $5,000,000 going out. Meanwhile because that one seat is now taken up there are only 19 seats available for paying students. So the new profit from the students is $38,000,000. This makes the new profit from that building $33,000,000

$40,000,000 versus $33,000,000 for just 100 students when some schools have 30,000 students is a huge difference. For this reason alone I don't think the desk marshal idea will work.



11. All these questions answered and a bag of chips, right here on DF.

You keep saying that, but I never get any! Where's my chips? I'd like BBQ please.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But you don't get no chips.
2. Not this time.
3. You get a cookie.
4. Here's how it should be done.
5. A student gets a discount on their tuition, for packing a rod.
6. This way they there is no added cost to having these *Desk Marshals* inside the class rooms.
7. Also it could be done in High Schools, with cash in the pocket.
8. Seeing public education is free, and most likely place to see a enraged gunman.
9. At least you do have interest in this topic professor, that could some day get you that coveted *Bag of Chips*.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[piratemonkey]

4. Here's how it should be done.
5. A student gets a discount on their tuition, for packing a rod.
6. This way they there is no added cost to having these *Desk Marshals* inside the class rooms.


Hmmm...

Turn our youth into a loose paramilitary organization.... where have I heard that idea before?

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But if the scholars need my help to figure it out, then that's cool by me.
2. I am always available to advise those in need, which is all Higher Education Orgs.
3. Public Schools, etc.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Professor]

Who would you get to decide who is stable enough to handle laying down their life and who should just be a student? There would almost have to be a military-like admissions procedure and boot camp. Can colleges afford that without jacking up tuition?

You also factor in the average college schedule. Most students take only 4-5 classes a semester. It would be a nightmare scheduling one in every classroom without duplicates.

It would be hard to police those kids, because they would be spread out. They would live in the dorms, be in class, everywhere at different times. It would be chaos trying to keep tabs on them.

To have that army of kids prancing around with weapons sounds more dangerous than the current situation.

[deepk]

this an extereme reaction that higher education will get you killed in place of getting you a job. Extreme thinking, rather paranoid.

[Sugar]

Cuuntries with loose gun control laws don't have the highest crime rates. The most dangerous persons in today's world are terrorists, organised criminals etc. who already have access to guns. Anyone who wants a gun can get one. These kind of persons who want to "kiss the world goodbye" already have guns. The personse who need to defend themselves from these maniacs do not.

[Professor]

Cuuntries with loose gun control laws don't have the highest crime rates. The most dangerous persons in today's world are terrorists, organised criminals etc. who already have access to guns. Anyone who wants a gun can get one. These kind of persons who want to "kiss the world goodbye" already have guns. The personse who need to defend themselves from these maniacs do not.


What is your solution?

[Labrocca]

College students should be allowed to carry firearms in school and teachers should be required to have one. At the very least it would get rid of some of the liberal anti-gun type teachers as they would refuse to carry a weapon. :) Let's seperate the men from the boys.

[Pookie]

If parents WOULD BE parents, we wouldn't have this problem. Some parents need to wake up, watch their kids, get smart and be a damn parent. That means discipline and watching for danger signs. Guns are never any answer, and don't start with me, I carry one.
I also have a responsible, NON-VIOLENT kid, Jennifer, 25 years old and she has never shot anybody. Figure it out. Sorry if I'm rude.
Purrs,

[crimzonsol]

So Instead of dealing with the issue we are going to give the people who are thinking about killing everyone a gun, also do you think that people will use their guns responsibly?

[Labrocca]

... also do you think that people will use their guns responsibly?


Millions of gun owners already do. We just need more legal gun owners.

[crimzonsol]

How many of those people are aged 21-26 and are in colledge? This just may be my exprience but colledge students are not the most responsible Human Beings in the world.

[bluchap]

As a parent it is your DUTY to ensure your kid does not take a gun to shcool. Thats the only solution I can think off at this time.

[crimzonsol]

I think that the parents are some fault, but the real fault lies with the kids. They need to figure out real fast that they need to grow up and not be so stupid, I know its alot to ask from them, but could they use logic once in a while.I not asking much, but if they used logic then we would not be hearing stories about school shootings.

[Pookie]

My whole point here is parents need to be parents, and discipline, watch, and deal with your children. Cops' kids are pretty responsible -- when was the last time (recently) you heard of a cop's kid getting hold of a gun and hurting anyone?
Think about it. Parents need to be parents. Sometimes it's a tough road. You choose to have a kid, you choose the tough road. Period.
As a mother, I know this for a fact.
Purrs,

[Elrathin]

Cops' kids are pretty responsible -- when was the last time (recently) you heard of a cop's kid getting hold of a gun and hurting anyone?


You may be right about a Cop's ki9d being responsible about guns, but you'd be wrong about being responsible. Typically the cop's kid is one of the most protected criminals when they commit a crime Pookie.

[Pookie]

Whoa! Not here! Usually they always know better (well, we only had one) and what bugs the crap out of me is the fact that where are the parents? Why, if they have guns in the home, why don't they teach their children safety and put those guns where the kids cannot get to them? I'm a gun-toting, tree-hugging liberal and my kid never shot anyone. She knew about guns, and she understood the danger of firing a gun at a person. Today, at 25, she chooses not to have a gun but boy does she believe in pepper spray and a watchdog! LOL. Hey, don't even try getting in her house. She also is a black belt in karate. LOL!
Purrs,

[lily]

Whoa! Not here! Usually they always know better (well, we only had one)

Um....doesn't that re-enforce El's point? If you only had one, then how do you know others weren't "taken care of"?

[Pookie]

Because I was a cop when it happened and knew. The kid wasn't a cop's kid, he was adopted at 16 by the cop (stepdad) and the brat tried to hold up a doughnut store with a watergun.
The Krispy Kreme was full of cops when he did it. He was stoned.
Purrs,

[lily]

Because I was a cop when it happened and knew. The kid wasn't a cop's kid, he was adopted at 16 by the cop (stepdad) and the brat tried to hold up a doughnut store with a watergun.
The Krispy Kreme was full of cops when he did it. He was stoned.
Purrs,


That wasn't my point, my point was how do you know if their crimes weren't covered up, if you only know of one....and really how could they cover it up if the Krispy Kreme was full of cops?

[Pookie]

Because the newspeople here are fanatics and they expose everything. When I got shot, they were camped out in my yard. We tried to keep that one quiet because it was a judge's nephew who did it.
It didn't work. Kinda like NBC airing Cho's video. I'm speaking of my own experiences here and if you haven't noticed, it is what I always do. I can't speak for anything else.
Purrs,

[crimzonsol]

Last time I checked there was little difference between cops kids and just regular kids for crime rates. Although that was a couple of years ago...

[deepk]

there is no directling between higher education and getting killed but definitley there is a very strong link between higer education and a goodjob. So the question of higher education getting you dead is remote. what happend in VT was just an accident and we cannot draw inferences from an accident.