Navy SEALs Face Assault Charges for Capturing Most-Wanted Terrorist

[Corodon]

link (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576646,00.html)
Fox NewsNavy SEALs have secretly captured one of the most wanted terrorists in Iraq — the alleged mastermind of the murder and mutilation of four Blackwater USA security guards in Fallujah in 2004. And three of the SEALs who captured him are now facing criminal charges, sources told FoxNews.com.

The three, all members of the Navy's elite commando unit, have refused non-judicial punishment — called an admiral's mast — and have requested a trial by court-martial.

Ahmed Hashim Abed, whom the military code-named "Objective Amber," told investigators he was punched by his captors — and he had the bloody lip to prove it.
I haven't Googled for a response from Holder or the president yet. I should probably wait a few months.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Please post more if more is found on this story.

If there is any truth to this, Americans had better wake up.

[Corodon]

Please post more if more is found on this story.

If there is any truth to this, Americans had better wake up.
Nothing beyond this report and a couple of blogs riffing on the same. As of yet.

FTA:Lt. Col. Holly Silkman, spokeswoman for the special operations component of U.S. Central Command, confirmed Tuesday to FoxNews.com that three SEALs have been charged in connection with the capture of a detainee. She said their court martial is scheduled for January.

[lily]

Unless I'm reading this story wrong, the charges of assult isn't for when he was captured, but while he was sitting in a jail cell?

[Boots]

Good on them for turning down the Admiral's Mast.

[MonsterMan]

The guy had a bloody lip?

This is the kind of crap that makes me want to puke and then punch someone myself.

[Theski]

God the fox news title isnt even close.. Christ.. the flat out lies..

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/11/24/three-navy-seals-court-martialed-after-giving-most-wanted-iraqi-terrorist-a-fat-lip/

[San Diego John]

Navy SEALs Face Assault Charges for Capturing Most-Wanted Terrorist
Not true. They are not facing assault charges for capturing this terrorist. They are facing charges for assaulting him after he was detained and in their custody in a cell, for dereliction of duty, and for making false official statements.
Matthew McCabe, a Special Operations Petty Officer Second Class (SO-2), is facing three charges: dereliction of performance of duty for willfully failing to safeguard a detainee, making a false official statement, and assault.

Petty Officer Jonathan Keefe, SO-2, is facing charges of dereliction of performance of duty and making a false official statement.

Petty Officer Julio Huertas, SO-1, faces those same charges and an additional charge of impediment of an investigation.

I haven't Googled for a response from Holder or the president yet. I should probably wait a few months.
There shouldn't be any response from the President or from Holder. This is a military matter that is best handled within the chain of command and the military justice system.

[Theski]

Not true. They are not facing assault charges for capturing this terrorist. They are facing charges for assaulting him after he was detained and in their custody in a cell, for dereliction of duty, and for making false official statements.



There shouldn't be any response from the President or from Holder. This is a military matter that is best handled within the chain of command and the military justice system.

thank you.. and you have been missed

[LadyLawyer]

I doubt the prosecutors are wasting their time on a "fat lip". C'mon.

[william the wierd]

God the fox news title isnt even close.. Christ.. the flat out lies..

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/11/24/three-navy-seals-court-martialed-after-giving-most-wanted-iraqi-terrorist-a-fat-lip/
This stunt does insure that many suspects will be shot while attempting to escape during transfer. Shot twice actually once to the heart once to the head.

[San Diego John]

Good on them for turning down the Admiral's Mast.
I disagree. Both times I knew I had screwed up while on duty, I took Captain's Mast. The rules are all in the government's favor, but the punishment is much more informal. It's one of those, "yeah, I screwed up, so I'll take my licks and we'll move on."

By requesting Courts Martial, they are stepping into a more formal courtroom situation. Once there, the power for the commanding officer to smack 'em on the wrist for an understandable mistake is more or less off the table, and they will likely have the book thrown at them for making false official statements.

For those not familiar with a military scenario, think of Captain's Mast (or Admiral's Mast, depending on your branch of service) as your Father spanking you. Yeah, it hurts, and yeah, it's embarrassing, but it isn't really that big of a deal. Compare that to a Court Martial, which is the military equivalent of a full trial. You have more legal protection, sure, but the possible punishment is usually far worse if you are, in fact, found guilty.

[Boots]

I disagree. Both times I knew I had screwed up while on duty, I took Captain's Mast. The rules are all in the government's favor, but the punishment is much more informal. It's one of those, "yeah, I screwed up, so I'll take my licks and we'll move on."

By requesting Courts Martial, they are stepping into a more formal courtroom situation. Once there, the power for the commanding officer to smack 'em on the wrist for an understandable mistake is more or less off the table, and they will likely have the book thrown at them for making false official statements.

For those not familiar with a military scenario, think of Captain's Mast (or Admiral's Mast, depending on your branch of service) as your Father spanking you. Yeah, it hurts, and yeah, it's embarrassing, but it isn't really that big of a deal. Compare that to a Court Martial, which is the military equivalent of a full trial. You have more legal protection, sure, but the possible punishment is usually far worse if you are, in fact, found guilty.

I agree with your legal analysis. I give them credit for holding their ground. If we are really going to court martial and punish some seals for punching the guy in the mouth, then we are a country that has truly fallen for the moral relativism bullshit. Some guys need a punch in the mouth.

[San Diego John]

I agree with your legal analysis. I give them credit for holding their ground. If we are really going to court martial and punish some seals for punching the guy in the mouth, then we are a country that has truly fallen for the moral relativism bullshit. Some guys need a punch in the mouth.
It seems to me they are not going to court martial over a single punch. They are going over failing to follow orders - which include safeguarding a prisoner - and then lying about it when asked. Who doesn't know by now that the cover-up is always worse than the crime?

Purely speculative, but if they had just said, "yeah, I f*ckin' punched him for calling my Mom a western whore," their CO would have sentenced them to a week of extra duty or loss of pay, but the whole thing would never have escalated.

And, of course, if it turns out the assault was more than a shot to the lip, then there are issues of prisoner abuse to deal with.

[Boots]

It seems to me they are not going to court martial over a single punch. They are going over failing to follow orders - which include safeguarding a prisoner - and then lying about it when asked. Who doesn't know by now that the cover-up is always worse than the crime?

Purely speculative, but if they had just said, "yeah, I f*ckin' punched him for calling my Mom a western whore," their CO would have sentenced them to a week of extra duty or loss of pay, but the whole thing would never have escalated.

And, of course, if it turns out the assault was more than a shot to the lip, then there are issues of prisoner abuse to deal with.

Ya know what...I kinda don't care right now. I know that is the wrong attitude. But I just don't. The same way that I wished the guys that captured Saddam would have just told everyone to close their eyes and then shot him in the head. Whoopsee. Our bad. He's dead.

[San Diego John]

Ya know what...I kinda don't care right now. I know that is the wrong attitude. But I just don't. The same way that I wished the guys that captured Saddam would have just told everyone to close their eyes and then shot him in the head. Whoopsee. Our bad. He's dead.
I won't lose any sleep over a Seal popping some guy in the lip. Doesn't break my heart in the least. But lying to an investigator is amateur hour.

[Theski]

I guess we all take it for granted that fox will lie in the headline. .

[Boots]

I won't lose any sleep over a Seal popping some guy in the lip. Doesn't break my heart in the least. But lying to an investigator is amateur hour.

It's what it's come to. Unfortunate.

[Corodon]

There shouldn't be any response from the President or from Holder. This is a military matter that is best handled within the chain of command and the military justice system.Couldn't they at least predict the SEALs will be acquitted and released?

:D

[Boots]

It seems to me they are not going to court martial over a single punch. They are going over failing to follow orders - which include safeguarding a prisoner - and then lying about it when asked. Who doesn't know by now that the cover-up is always worse than the crime?

Purely speculative, but if they had just said, "yeah, I f*ckin' punched him for calling my Mom a western whore," their CO would have sentenced them to a week of extra duty or loss of pay, but the whole thing would never have escalated.

And, of course, if it turns out the assault was more than a shot to the lip, then there are issues of prisoner abuse to deal with.

And some day I want to hear about your Captains Mast! My friend never got to really see Hawaii...he punched a guy an hour into his leave...that and the MP's were all he got to see!! :lmao:

[william the wierd]

The assumption here is that the SEALs actually popped the guy even though zero evidence has yet been presented that any beating happened in their custody, much less that it was unjustified use of force. Sounds like an awful lot of conjecture over allegations by a felon made to sympathetic authorities. What is known is that the suspect was unbeaten when he left a US secure facility and that he had wounds consistent with a mild and visible beating when returned.

In other words all three special operators were ignorant of the old police trick of beating with pillows to avoid bruising and lacerations. The purportedly more modern version, which I doubt works as well, is to put the victim in body armor that spreads the impact that "just like using pillows" also reduces evidence of a beating. This story as reported is highly inconsistent with the allegations. An unjustified beating by skilled personnel either puts the victim in the local morgue/ICU/CCU or is nearly impossible to prove. Sound like either a justified use of force or a frame to me.

[San Diego John]

The assumption here is that the SEALs actually popped the guy even though zero evidence has yet been presented that any beating happened in their custody, much less that it was unjustified use of force. Sounds like an awful lot of conjecture over allegations by a felon made to sympathetic authorities. What is known is that the suspect was unbeaten when he left a US secure facility and that he had wounds consistent with a mild and visible beating when returned.
I'm not basing this on anything the terrorist claims. I'm relying on the facts presented.
The SEAL leader reported the charge up the chain of command, and an investigation ensued.
Matthew McCabe, a Special Operations Petty Officer Second Class (SO-2), is facing three charges: dereliction of performance of duty for willfully failing to safeguard a detainee, making a false official statement, and assault.

Petty Officer Jonathan Keefe, SO-2, is facing charges of dereliction of performance of duty and making a false official statement.

Petty Officer Julio Huertas, SO-1, faces those same charges and an additional charge of impediment of an investigation.

[Corodon]

The assumption here is that the SEALs actually popped the guy even though zero evidence has yet been presented that any beating happened in their custody, much less that it was unjustified use of force. Sounds like an awful lot of conjecture over allegations by a felon made to sympathetic authorities. What is known is that the suspect was unbeaten when he left a US secure facility and that he had wounds consistent with a mild and visible beating when returned.

In other words all three special operators were ignorant of the old police trick of beating with pillows to avoid bruising and lacerations. The purportedly more modern version, which I doubt works as well, is to put the victim in body armor that spreads the impact that "just like using pillows" also reduces evidence of a beating. This story as reported is highly inconsistent with the allegations. An unjustified beating by skilled personnel either puts the victim in the local morgue/ICU/CCU or is nearly impossible to prove. Sound like either a justified use of force or a frame to me.

I'm not basing this on anything the terrorist claims. I'm relying on the facts presented.The "facts presented" that you see are that charges have been filed. William the wierd points to other facts presented in the same report that point toward a different explanation of circumstances. We'll have to wait to see how it all shakes out.

I do trust the court-martial process to be fair to our guys, though maybe I'm naive.

[San Diego John]

I do trust the court-martial process to be fair to our guys, though maybe I'm naive.
I trust the process, too, and I prefer to think that the accused are innocent of the charges. If they are guilty, though, I think they made a tactical mistake in not taking Captain's Mast.

[Shanty]

I agree with your legal analysis. I give them credit for holding their ground. If we are really going to court martial and punish some seals for punching the guy in the mouth, then we are a country that has truly fallen for the moral relativism bullshit. Some guys need a punch in the mouth.

If the SEALS had done it while the guy was already detained and in a cell, then there is not excuse for their actions.

But, some people have not learned the lessons of Abu Grahib and are doomed to repeat the same cheerleading for illegal acts.

[Shanty]

I won't lose any sleep over a Seal popping some guy in the lip. Doesn't break my heart in the least. But lying to an investigator is amateur hour. Agreed. It seems they had specific orders to not allow anything to happen to this guy while he was being detained. But when it happened, the thing to do was to own up to it and get the punishment over with.

[San Diego John]

Agreed. It seems they had specific orders to not allow anything to happen to this guy while he was being detained. But when it happened, the thing to do was to own up to it and get the punishment over with.
Yep. And these guys are trained to not react like the rest of us would like to. They are in a league of their own in terms of self-control. If there is truth to the allegations, the breakdown in discipline would not endear them to their team members. Simply put, they do not have the luxury to lash out in anger like most of us would want to.

[Corodon]

Agreed. It seems they had specific orders to not allow anything to happen to this guy while he was being detained. But when it happened, the thing to do was to own up to it and get the punishment over with.
It's worth repeating that a "bruised lip" can be self-inflicted.

We don't know yet.

[gurutoo]

Hmmm, we can KILL these guys, but don't dare give them a fat lip or bruise them. Yep, I predict a vast increase in dead terrorists shot for trying to escape.

[Bok_Tukalo]

Kafka smiles.

[lily]

Hmmm, we can KILL these guys, but don't dare give them a fat lip or bruise them. Yep, I predict a vast increase in dead terrorists shot for trying to escape.

You know guru.....if they gave him the fat lip capturing him, there wouldn't be anything said.....but they didn't......and I don't think anyone here really cares if he got a fat lip or not.....what at least I care about, is they lied and tried to cover it up.

[Boots]

You know guru.....if they gave him the fat lip capturing him, there wouldn't be anything said.....but they didn't......and I don't think anyone here really cares if he got a fat lip or not.....what at least I care about, is they lied and tried to cover it up.

Allegedly.

[Theski]

Allegedly.

Maybe you could change the thread title in this one.

[Boots]

Maybe you could change the thread title in this one.

That's an editor's job. They're union.

[San Diego John]

That's an editor's job. They're union.

Allegedly.

[lawless168]

Pure BS ...

[william the wierd]

Pure BS ...
in regards to what in particular or just in general?

[Shanty]

It's worth repeating that a "bruised lip" can be self-inflicted.

We don't know yet.
Absolutely. That's what the court martial will be about, partially. And if it's established that they struck this guy during his detetnion and not when they were making the grab on him, then it will move on to the issues of their obstructing military investigations and justice.

But, we'll have to sit back to watch and see. But frankly, if they did this and they get convicted for it, some careers are going to be sullied.

[Corodon]

Absolutely. That's what the court martial will be about, partially. And if it's established that they struck this guy during his detetnion and not when they were making the grab on him, then it will move on to the issues of their obstructing military investigations and justice.

But, we'll have to sit back to watch and see. But frankly, if they did this and they get convicted for it, some careers are going to be sullied.
I think I read that the trial will be in January. So far (still) I have only the one report on FOX News to go on, complete with its Wrong headline. A "bruised lip" should not be all there is to it.

[Shanty]

I think I read that the trial will be in January. So far (still) I have only the one report on FOX News to go on, complete with its Wrong headline. A "bruised lip" should not be all there is to it. It could be that if a SEAL had struck this scumbag it was still out of bounds, whether or not he had a bruised lip or not. Again, we don't know.

[Corodon]

It could be that if a SEAL had struck this scumbag it was still out of bounds, whether or not he had a bruised lip or not. Again, we don't know.
I remember once I had to report a misbehaving boy (3rd or 4th grade, it's now several years ago) to the principal's office. While I was writing up the report, he was sulking, angrily rubbing his arm just above the elbow.

I didn't think anything of it, but when his guardians came, damn if he didn't show off a redness around his arm where he had been rubbing and claim that I did it. The guardians flew off the handle and called the cops; it was a fun afternoon. Luckily I had witnesses, and this family had a history.

[Boots]

It could be that if a SEAL had struck this scumbag it was still out of bounds, whether or not he had a bruised lip or not. Again, we don't know.

I really can't imagine what that scenario would be. Trying real hard. Nope. Just can't see it.

[Shanty]

I remember once I had to report a misbehaving boy (3rd or 4th grade, it's now several years ago) to the principal's office. While I was writing up the report, he was sulking, angrily rubbing his arm just above the elbow.

I didn't think anything of it, but when his guardians came, damn if he didn't show off a redness around his arm where he had been rubbing and claim that I did it. The guardians flew off the handle and called the cops; it was a fun afternoon. Luckily I had witnesses, and this family had a history. Relevance?

[Shanty]

I really can't imagine what that scenario would be. Trying real hard. Nope. Just can't see it.
Maybe you're a little more sheltered than I am, but not every hit to the face will show visible signs of being struck. I was hit in the face once with a wrench by accident and didn't show any signs of being hit, but another time my daughter was about 3 and she left me with a slight black and blue mark under my eye just playing around.

Funny how it happens, but that's reality.

[San Diego John]

I really can't imagine what that scenario would be. Trying real hard. Nope. Just can't see it.
Try this. If a SEAL commander gave an order, any action taken by his subordinates to the contrary would be out of bounds.

[Lady Marva]

I remember once I had to report a misbehaving boy (3rd or 4th grade, it's now several years ago) to the principal's office. While I was writing up the report, he was sulking, angrily rubbing his arm just above the elbow.

I didn't think anything of it, but when his guardians came, damn if he didn't show off a redness around his arm where he had been rubbing and claim that I did it. The guardians flew off the handle and called the cops; it was a fun afternoon. Luckily I had witnesses, and this family had a history.

Yep. Myself doesn't think terrorists are going to be above lying. :unreal:

[San Diego John]

Yep. Myself doesn't think terrorists are going to be above lying. :unreal:

And I'm sure the SEAL's chain of command is well aware of that and would take that into consideration when investigating the allegations.

[Shanty]

Yep. Myself doesn't think terrorists are going to be above lying. :unreal:
No one is disputing that, either. But the general objection to the whole thing is that people are focusing on the injury, because it's an extremely minor one, as opposed to servicemen who disobeyed orders.

Frankly, I hope it's found out that the alleged terrorist is lying. So does SDJ and everyone else on the forum, I'm sure.

[Boots]

Try this. If a SEAL commander gave an order, any action taken by his subordinates to the contrary would be out of bounds.

Yeah, thinking hard. Real hard. Sort of sympathize with the position. Nope. Still can't wrap my brain around it. The Virgin Mary, Mohammed, John Smith, and Hercules could order not to punch him in the sucker and I still gotta side with the punch. Yeah, I know. I haven't learned my lesson from Abu Ghraib. That's okay. I can live with that.

[San Diego John]

Yeah, thinking hard. Real hard. Sort of sympathize with the position. Nope. Still can't wrap my brain around it. The Virgin Mary, Mohammed, John Smith, and Hercules could order not to punch him in the sucker and I still gotta side with the punch. Yeah, I know. I haven't learned my lesson from Abu Ghraib. That's okay. I can live with that.
But the Virgin Mary, Mohammed, John Smith and Hercules are not in situations daily where their lives depend on the men in their chain of command following orders. Not just the easy orders. Not just the fun orders. Not just the orders they like. But orders. All of them.

Discipline and self-control are best evaluated when they are most difficult to maintain.

[Boots]

But the Virgin Mary, Mohammed, John Smith and Hercules are not in situations daily where their lives depend on the men in their chain of command following orders. Not just the easy orders. Not just the fun orders. Not just the orders they like. But orders. All of them.

Discipline and self-control are best evaluated when they are most difficult to maintain.

And I believe the mere fact that the man didn't die will hanging from a bridge with Marine tattoos all over him shows just how much self control those men exercised.

[Shanty]

Yeah, thinking hard. Real hard. Sort of sympathize with the position. Nope. Still can't wrap my brain around it. The Virgin Mary, Mohammed, John Smith, and Hercules could order not to punch him in the sucker and I still gotta side with the punch. Yeah, I know. I haven't learned my lesson from Abu Ghraib. That's okay. I can live with that.

You definitely never served in the military where orders are moire important than your feelings. But, without order, the miltary's authority breaks down and there is chaos with a bunch of (mostly) under 30 guys with weapons that can do grievious damage and death. Orders aren't optional. These SEALs knew that when they signed up for BUDS training. They knew that after boot camp. They were told it before they went to boot camp.

[San Diego John]

And I believe the mere fact that the man didn't die will hanging from a bridge with Marine tattoos all over him shows just how much self control those men exercised.
Psst. SEALS are more likely to have Navy tattoos. :cool:

[Shanty]

Psst. SEALS are more likely to have Navy tattoos. :cool:
I'll take a guess here, but I think Boots may be referring to one of the Blackwater employees, and that he may have been a former Marine.

[Boots]

Psst. SEALS are more likely to have Navy tattoos. :cool:

Heh...did you not read my I believe post? Still no sleep and considering a dinner invite. I am a glutton.

[Boots]

You definitely never served in the military where orders are moire important than your feelings. But, without order, the miltary's authority breaks down and there is chaos with a bunch of (mostly) under 30 guys with weapons that can do grievious damage and death. Orders aren't optional. These SEALs knew that when they signed up for BUDS training. They knew that after boot camp. They were told it before they went to boot camp.

On, I'm sorry, I had no idea. Thank you for your service.

[San Diego John]

I'll take a guess here, but I think Boots may be referring to one of the Blackwater employees, and that he may have been a former Marine.
I prefer to believe it's that she thinks about the SEALS and their serious kick-ass, get it done attitude and assumes they must all be Marines. :evil:

[San Diego John]

Heh...did you not read my I believe post? Still no sleep and considering a dinner invite. I am a glutton.
Oh, man. I just read that. I'm surprised you aren't so delirious by now you think these are the seals we are talking about.

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/images/poster-trained-seals.jpg

[Shanty]

I prefer to believe it's that she thinks about the SEALS and their serious kick-ass, get it done attitude and assumes they must all be Marines. :evil: SEALs are inferior imposters to Marines.

[Shanty]

Oh, man. I just read that. I'm surprised you aren't so delirious by now you think these are the seals we are talking about.

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/images/poster-trained-seals.jpg
with all of that ball playing going on, no wonder someone got a bruised lip.

[San Diego John]

SEALs are inferior imposters to Marines.
You know where my loyalties are, but damn if I would say something like that to a SEAL. I prefer to think we all just have our own areas of expertise. :fight:

[Corodon]

Relevance?
I'm skeptical about the origin of the "bruised lip."

[Dick Tuck]

I remember once I had to report a misbehaving boy (3rd or 4th grade, it's now several years ago) to the principal's office. While I was writing up the report, he was sulking, angrily rubbing his arm just above the elbow.

I didn't think anything of it, but when his guardians came, damn if he didn't show off a redness around his arm where he had been rubbing and claim that I did it. The guardians flew off the handle and called the cops; it was a fun afternoon. Luckily I had witnesses, and this family had a history.

You're assuming that there were no other witnesses, and it's just the word of a scumbag, aren't you?

[Dick Tuck]

The military is funny like that. When they give someone an order, they expect it to be carried out. When they believe that witnesses are lying about something, they seem to not like that very much either. Go figure. The guy was a scumbag, so it was OK not to follow orders, and lie about it (assumming guilt).

BTW, I just read that one of the Blackwater people killed was a SEAL. Wonder if that had something to do with it.

[Dick Tuck]

I'm skeptical about the origin of the "bruised lip."

It's FOX reporting it, and it's even contradicted by its own reporting. I'm not surprised at anything they write.

[Corodon]

You're assuming that there were no other witnesses, and it's just the word of a scumbag, aren't you?
I'm assuming exactly what I said: a "bruised lip" can be self-inflicted.

[Corodon]

It's FOX reporting it, and it's even contradicted by its own reporting. I'm not surprised at anything they write.So it would be a good thing if other outlets reported on this. Most (if not all?) of the stories out there are rewrites of the FOX piece, though a few add details, like this one (http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-local_seals_1126nov26,0,5808558.story) in the Daily Press:Neal Puckett, an attorney representing McCabe, told Fox News that the SEALS are being charged for allegedly giving the detainee a "punch in the gut."

[Dick Tuck]

So it would be a good thing if other outlets reported on this. Most (if not all?) of the stories out there are rewrites of the FOX piece, though a few add details, like this one (http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-local_seals_1126nov26,0,5808558.story) in the Daily Press:Neal Puckett, an attorney representing McCabe, told Fox News that the SEALS are being charged for allegedly giving the detainee a "punch in the gut."

Only one was charged with assault according to FOX, and that seemed an afterthought. Once again, according to the story:

Matthew McCabe, a Special Operations Petty Officer Second Class (SO-2), is facing three charges: dereliction of performance of duty for willfully failing to safeguard a detainee, making a false official statement, and assault.

Petty Officer Jonathan Keefe, SO-2, is facing charges of dereliction of performance of duty and making a false official statement.

Petty Officer Julio Huertas, SO-1, faces those same charges and an additional charge of impediment of an investigation.

I don't see punching someone in the gut in the list of charges. In fact, I only see one person who has beeen charged with assault, and that's only one of three charges.