I give you "Nuestro Himno"

[KrAzY3]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060428/D8H90A2GQ.html
British music producer Adam Kidron says that when he came up with the idea of a Spanish-language version of the U.S. national anthem, he saw it as an ode to the millions of immigrants seeking a better life.

But in the week since Kidron announced the song - which features artists such as Wyclef Jean, hip-hop star Pitbull and Puerto Rican singers Carlos Ponce and Olga Tanon - it has been the target of a fierce backlash.

Some Internet bloggers and others are infuriated by the thought of "The Star-Spangled Banner" sung in a language other than English.

"Would the French accept people singing the La Marseillaise in English as a sign of French patriotism? Of course not," said Mark Krikorian, head of the Washington-based Center for Immigration Studies, a think tank that supports tighter immigration controls.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/04/28/D8H94LTG0.html

The national anthem should be sung in English _ not Spanish _ President Bush declared Friday, amid growing restlessness over the millions of immigrants here illegally.

I've commented before that the influx of illegal immigrants has the potential to alter our very way of life. Immigration works for America because of integration. The problem becomes that of absorption. A influx of one group of people sharing a culture and language can be compared to a flood of water. The ground is only capable of absorbing so much water before the water starts to gather. Unfortunately, immigration has become so one-sided (illegals from the southern border outnumbering legal immigrants) that Latino immigrants are failing to integrate. For now, we see Espn Deportes and the occasional political debate in Spanish. Unfortunately though, we will become a nation of two cultures and two languages eventually (if the problem is not fixed). The rift can and will most likely lead to a larger division which will start to manifest itself in different ways. We will become a split country. Depending on the place you live, you might want to start learning Nuestro Himno...

[PittsburghAfterDark]

Something tells me that the illegal immigrant activists have jumped the shark.

First it was having the balls to protest by the millions in the streets without fear of arrest. Second having the Mexican flag being so prominent in those rallies. Last was this abomination.

They've destroyed any sympathy many Americans have for people operating in segments of the economy they don't actively seek employment in. The backlash is going to be severe for them and their cause of continued law breaking and receipt of public services. Their PR people are completely tone deaf.

[AlonzoMourning23]

It's not their PR people, it's a guy from britain.

Though it's not like we have an official language, and until we do any language should be able to be used.

[Labrocca]

I've commented before that the influx of illegal immigrants has the potential to alter our very way of life.


Every immigrant group has affected our way of life. Would we have Pizza without the Italian immigrants? Would we have French Fries if it wasn't for the Germans? So what they speak Spanish...I could care less if someday my ancestors spoke espanol. I doubt my great grandfather thought I would be speaking English instead of Italian. Things change...the great thing about America is that we adapt.

[KrAzY3]

I'm not in anyway saying people should or shouldn't speak a certain language. Obviously that is their own choice. I just see it as a symptom of the problem. The language "barrier" is something that will end up changing how we interact with each other, making a growing rift.

Let me explain a bit. As I understand it, we have 30 million Latinos that are American citizens. Most of those in fact speak English. However, most of them also speak Spanish. I have a good friend that is Columbian, perfect English speaker. But, when he is at family gatherings or the like he and everyone else speaks Spanish, I couldn't even talk to half the people there because they didn't speak English. The point in that is that if we reach a density like that (on a much larger level), even the English speakers will revert to Spanish speaking. As Latino communities grow disproportionately to the rest of the immigrants and population the density increases. The risk is that, as I said you have even the English speakers revert. The 30 million Latinos have the potential to double within 10 years (10 million illegals, plus their families members, plus the impending influx after that due to their new political power as citizens, etc...). If there is already a issue with integration, the problem will become compounded. As I have said in other threads, the threat becomes when the second generation fails to learn English. It is a symptom though, it just demonstrates their separation from the rest of America.

As far as what you said, Labrocca I think you're missing the point. I'm talking about America becoming separated. I'm talking about a rift that has the potential to dwarf any previous rifts in American culture and society. Look at other countries, you'll see histories of ethnic fighting and divisions based on culture and language. America (since the British settlers established their dominance I suppose) has managed to unite itself and the strength is in this unity. I am talking about something that has nothing to do with language in the long run, and everything to do with making this a split country. I can and have previously referred to several potential outcomes, but look no further than Quebec, a province that twice nearly voted itself out of Canada (the only reason they didn't the last time was because other Canadians come into Quebec to vote against their independence). The language/culture barrier can do a lot of harm to a country, and unfortunately I see little good. It is not a issue of fearing change, it is a issue of as I said before breaking the melting pot and destroying what makes this country so damned great in the first place.

You alluded to immigrants yet not so deftly avoided the entire point I made of integration. We have French fries and pizza (mind you our pizza kicks the shit out of real Italian pizza. If you're ever in Europe be sure to buy American style pizza or else you will probably not like the sloppy not so tasty mess you get) because we integrated different cultures into our own. American culture is nothing more than a combination, a mixture. A manifestation of the melting pot. From our music, food or our dress we've combined the cultures of the world. The problem, as I clearly stated was that this is a matter of failing to combine, failing to integrate. This is a matter of one group of people slowly separating itself from the rest of us. This isn't what we've seen before, some Latino music and burritos and salsa (I friggin' love salsa) and other Latino influences on our culture, this is a matter of that culture isolating itself and standing alone (in considerable part to the massive influx of illegal immigration).

[KrAzY3]

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/06.04.30.JoseCanYouSee-X.gif

[AlonzoMourning23]

Krazy, what immigrant group ever assimilated immediately? Look at the long history of italian, irish etc. immigrants. They tended to group together, stay in their own neighborhood, hell even criminal gangs were formed solely on the basis of ethnicity and consumed neighborhoods with conflict between rival groups. The concerns raised here seem to be concerns raised repeatedly throughout our history. The only extra barrier facing them is most won't ever be considered "white". The difference in appearance means they stand out much more than the average european immigrant and, therefore, have an extra hurdle. But there isn't much that's fundamentally different about the nature of hispanic immigrants than immigrants in the past.

Quebec is an entirely different scenario. The french where there first, their language and culture was established. The british had other colonies but came later and eventually took control of the french colonies. It was essentially a clash of two entrenched cultures and the french side got swallowed up.

The referendum for independence lost for many reasons. These include a controversy over racist statements (though it got worse after they lost), large increase of new canadian citizenships being given (to asians, middle easterners etc.) who had no interest in supporting the separatists (separatists tend not to like immigrants unless they're french), massive funding by the federal government supporting a "no" vote etc. It had nothing to do with people from ontario and other provinces voting in the referendum, something they couldn't do unless they moved there anyway.

[KrAzY3]

Immediately? Dude, Latinos have been immigrating for a long ass time. The problem as I stated is that the density is increasing and the assimilation is slowing if not stopping completely (if you don't believe me go some places in Miami, San Diego, etc..). Remember, we have a lot in place to make not assimilating easier. In areas of heavy Latino concentration you have every imaginable Spanish language service, including schooling and voting. It is becoming too easy not to assimilate. I am not blaming it all in the immigrants though, many stereotypes about "Mexican" immigrants exist and millions of people are being held by them. The same things we praise them for (cheap labor) we will expect of them in perpetuity. This is also a problem made worse by the densities. If you have greater integration and more diverse immigration it would be much harder to isolate one group of people.

This doesn't really get to the heart of the problem though. As I've made it clear before, I fear American immigration becoming monopolized by Latinos. If you look over time, there was much more balanced immigration. One illegal Latino immigrant for every legal non-Latino immigrant is making for a unbalanced system. Hell, look at the protests. It is not happenstance that a great deal of them are Latinos. It is not just becoming easier for them not to integrate, we are on the verge of allowing for almost exclusive Latino immigration, while we continue to prevent everyone else from coming here.

I've said it before, but I should say it again. The resolution is simple:
A: Hold all immigrants to the same standards. Do not give people here illegally any advantage at all. Force everyone to come in the front door and meet the same standards. This should include making legal immigration easier, but it should not give any advantage at all to people here illegally.
B: Punish employers hiring illegal immigrants. They are breaking the law, they should be punished accordingly.
C: Withhold public services from illegal immigrants. We do not let legal immigrants have public services, the fact that we allow them for illegals is absurd and insulting to legal immigrants. This would also decrease the incentive to come here illegally.
D: Tighten border security. If it is harder to come here illegally, more people will come via the legal route.

These four things would fix a vast majority of the problem. You push people to come in the legal way and make it easier for them to do so, you punish employers encouraging them to break the law, you take away other incentives for illegal immigrants and you make it harder to come here illegally. The problem would clear up in a relatively short period of time. I don't see why we can't start moving towards this right away. Enough of this amnesty talk. Just fix the problems and start treating all immigrants equally, regardless of what language the speak or what country they are from. Most importantly, we have to stop rewarding the illegal behavior. One reason we see less integration is because of the types of people we are welcoming here illegally (kind of a oxymoron but it is what is happening). These are people who don't identify with this country, they just want work and furthermore they show disregard for our laws and our way of life.

Immigration would become more balanced again, and perhaps more importantly assimilation (due to more balanced immigration and less favoritism) should become more prevalent.

As far as the last Quebec refferendum, my sources are Canadian and they told me that people came from outside to vote. I'm not really all that well educated on the subject though so I won't really argue about it. The point being it serves as a example of what a ethnic barrier within a country can lead to.

[sbannon]

KrAzY3, I'm actually aligned with you for the most part on how to address this. At-least, 3 of your 4 suggestions.

We certainly should be prosecuting employers of illegal labor and imposing much harsher penalties upon them. This step alone would solve much of the problem and make dealing with the rest far easier. There's been a trend recently in the rhetoric to lump all border-crossers with hardened criminals and terrorists, but the truth is that the overwhelming majority are opportunity seekers. People looking for work and pay beyond what's available to them elsewhere. If we began jailing CEO's and affluent parents who provide these opportunities in order to save a few dollars over hiring legal labor you'd see the well of opportunities dry up quick--which would have a decreasing effect on the number of people crossing the border.

That would make securing all of our borders (north and south as well as our coast lines) much more manageable.

I also agree that most public services should be limited to illegals. There are some, such as emergency medical or education for children who certainly didn't make the decision to come here for themselves that I wouldn't refuse, but beyond those it's a fair idea. With the children you can argue that we shouldn't pay to educate them, and it's a fair argument, however if they ultimately gain citizenship then all you've done is created a bunch of under-educated Americans who will likely drain on the system and get to vote. I don't see that as productive for anyone in the long term, but it's a personal position and I understand those who would oppose it.

The only suggestion I really disagree on, and it ties into the ideas you stated that past immigration was more balanced and previous groups were somehow faster to integrate, is to "Hold all immigrants to the same standards. Do not give people here illegally any advantage at all."

First, past cultural floodings have been the norm in our history. Asians, who took decades to expand beyond their tight-knit communities and begin to assimilate.

The Irish, who still today monopolize certain communities in several cities and some still devote more sincerity and attentions to Irish holidays and traditions than American.

The Polish and German, many of whom never learned enough english to even ask a waiter where the bathroom is, and it's only because their children assisted them they could manage. It's taken 2 and sometimes 3 generations to pass in many of these families to fully integrate into American life and culture.

My point is that every cultural boom in immigration has resulted in some lasting forms of separatism within America that took decades and decades to dilute. This isn't really a new phenomenon.

There's also a misconception that past immigrants were different in that they all came legally and 'signed the guest book' upon entry. I thought this was true myself until I began researching my own family genealogy a few years ago. What I found was that many early immigrants would come--usually the father/husband of a family--and establish work and a home to later bring the rest of his family to. They would stay with relatives, friends or in boarding houses often for several years building up the resources to bring their full family over. They would then claim "new entry" with the rest of the family, months or even years after having already been here.

It's funny how many people I found listed in census data from several years prior to their actual "arrival" (wink wink) dates.

So, basically there's a history and tradition of illegal immigrants seeking opportunities and being given a free-pass of sorts when they later apply for citizenship. It can be called 'rewarding criminal behavior', but it's an established precedent in American immigration history.

[KrAzY3]

I love immigration. Really, I do. My best friend in Atlanta was Columbian. My wife is German. I look around here in Mobile, Al and I see the stereotypical white trash and I think some immigration could raise the IQ of the population and probably increase the number of healthy teeth while they're at it. However, knowing the rigors of immigrating legally and the standards she is held to both of us are insulted by the idea that anyone who is here illegally could potentially have a easier path to citizenship. Everyone should have to abide by the same rules she is held to, otherwise why have these rules at all? I believe legal immigration should be easier, in truth but until that is done we can not let people who are waiting in line to come here legally get passed up by people who are here illegally. That is a big part of my emphasis on this issue. We have legal immigrants and they have to be given the preferential treatment if any immigrants are going to get it. Amnesty of any sort would say ok, you broke our laws but we're overlooking it. This is a slap in the face to anyone that didn't break them and went through all the trouble to legally immigrate. All I ask is that people who want to immigrate follow the legal process that is in place, not have some special criteria fabricated just for them.

Really though, if we let everyone in I wouldn't have as much of a problem. Our public schools, social security, welfare and so on would probably fail under the strain but I'm not big on social programs anyway. It isn't a matter of oh! Oh illegal immigrants they're bad bad people! It is more a problem with the fact the way things work the only effective way to come here illegally is through our southern border. If you are from Africa, Europe or Asia you have a much more difficult time coming here, legally or illegally. If we just had open borders, period I could accept that truth be told. I know immigration is a great thing. The problem I see is that we are allowing for one specific group of people to immigrate while holding all the other groups off. This one group of people are creating a political willpower that has the potential to make things even more lopsided in the future.

As far as integration. I don't mind isolated pockets of people that don't integrate. Don't get me wrong, I find it questionable to want to come to a new land and reap the rewards but fail to adapt to their ways. That to me isn't very respectful or appreciative. Like going to a church to get free food, but not bowing your head when they pray. I can accept, for instance places in Miami that don't have anything in English, nor do they have employees that speak English. It is pretty weird, but I can accept pockets of this. As I stated though, we are talking about a group that has the potential to reach 60 million in about ten years. This is no isolated pocket, this would represent about 25% of our population. The concern isn't relating to a few cities in America or small communities. I'm worried about a completely isolated, segregated group of people.

People we expect to do our farming, to work for next to nothing. People that unfortunately are not only three times as likely to not have graduated than immigrants from Europe or Asia, but whose children drop out at a rate of 50%. The blame goes to many people, but the problem as I see it is to have a whole new lower class. A group of people that, due to Telemundo, ESPN Deportes, polls in Spanish, schooling in Spanish, literature in Spanish, etc... have a very real risk of never learning English. I've worked with several Mexicans, I was saddened to see that only a couple of them learned English. I was saddened to see that only a husband and a wife took effort to learn and adapt to our culture. I was most saddened to see that none of them, even the English speaking ones moved on to a better job. This is a complex problem, and a problem that could/would better itself over time if we do not let a massive influx break the melting pot.