Warmongers Please Reply:

[gpruitt54]

Can you tell me why it is so appealing to Conservatives that Americans act like the people we are trying to kill in these wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and soon to be Iran?

What do I mean? There are threads all over this forum and the Internet, where some if not all right-wing (even Evangelical) types including the President (a supposed Christan) and VP (who knows what he is) are condoning torture. While left wingers (Also Christians) and Independents (Christian also) argue that torture and other barbaric behavior should not be used by Americans.

Here is the absolute contradiction for right wingers. You people used the idea of Sadam and his torture chambers as justification for attacking Iraq and killing Sadam. Yet, you right wingers support torture.

What the?… If using torture made Sadam the scum of the earth, what does it make us when we torture? We cannot be the good guys when we behave like the evil we are fighting. Also remember that we were going to hang Milosevic of Bosnia for war crimes that included torture. After WWII we hung Nazis, and Japanese for doing what some of you are supporting.

How do you morally justify this contradiction? Your honest answers please?

[Obama08]

That’s a great point.
These hypocritical contradictions are what we're seeing come from the right time and time again. Apparently Evangelicals assume its ok to ignore "thou shall not kill" in their 2,000 year old fairy tale album. They put all their effort into abiding by the bible only when it comes to not being gay and not having sex.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But this war is like no other war.
2. The enemy walk amongst us.
3. They act like regular everyday Arabs, wearing burk-as and sheets, when they blow themselves up beside you.
4. Or pretend to be businessmen, and hijack airplanes and crash them into buildings with innocent people in them, which I shall never forget and or forgive, freaking f'in forever!
5. This war on Islam is just begun.
6. It will only come to a pause, when we go nuclear on them.
7. This pause will not be permanent.
8. Then all hell breaks loose on them.
9. We win!

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[gpruitt54]

Sorry bout that,

1. But this war is like no other war.
2. The enemy walk amongst us.
3. They act like regular everyday Arabs, wearing burk-as and sheets, when they blow themselves up beside you.
4. Or pretend to be businessmen, and hijack airplanes and crash them into buildings with innocent people in them, which I shall never forget and or forgive, freaking f'in forever!
5. This war on Islam is just begun.
6. It will only come to a pause, when we go nuclear on them.
7. This pause will not be permanent.
8. Then all hell breaks loose on them.
9. We win!

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


I was looking for honest answers; you have just provided a list of excuses. Could you please go back to the drawing board and try actually answering the overall question of moral justification of torture vs. the contradiction posed by the Christian ethic. Sorry bout that.

[Obama08]

1. But this war is like no other war.
Actually its quite similar to Vietnam...
2. The enemy walk amongst us.
3. They act like regular everyday Arabs, wearing burk-as and sheets, when they blow themselves up beside you.
4. Or pretend to be businessmen, and hijack airplanes and crash them into buildings with innocent people in them, which I shall never forget and or forgive, freaking f'in forever!
When other than September 11th have Islamic terrorists ever attacked us on US soil???
5. This war on Islam is just begun.
6. It will only come to a pause, when we go nuclear on them.
7. This pause will not be permanent.
8. Then all hell breaks loose on them.
9. We win!
Alright fascist!

[Red Dragon]

I see the war against terror a war that is near unwinnable. We are not fighting against a country we are fighting against an idea. History has taught us over and over again that a war like this is very costly. And while we may be able to destroy people we can never destroy an idea. Also Chess there's this one country called china, its government hates us. They have nuclear weapons too, and if we use even one of our missiles or bombs, doesn't matter where it is, they will shot off missiles right towards Washington, New York, and other cities. Do you seriously think we can get away with using a WMD on people who may not even be an enemy? Would you condone destroying a hundred terrorists for thousands of innocent civilians in America and Islamic countries and maybe even other countries?

[BoogyMan]

Can you tell me why it is so appealing to Conservatives that Americans act like the people we are trying to kill in these wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and soon to be Iran?

What do I mean? There are threads all over this forum and the Internet, where some if not all right-wing (even Evangelical) types including the President (a supposed Christan) and VP (who knows what he is) are condoning torture. While left wingers (Also Christians) and Independents (Christian also) argue that torture and other barbaric behavior should not be used by Americans.

Here is the absolute contradiction for right wingers. You people used the idea of Sadam and his torture chambers as justification for attacking Iraq and killing Sadam. Yet, you right wingers support torture.

What the?… If using torture made Sadam the scum of the earth, what does it make us when we torture? We cannot be the good guys when we behave like the evil we are fighting. Also remember that we were going to hang Milosevic of Bosnia for war crimes that included torture. After WWII we hung Nazis, and Japanese for doing what some of you are supporting.

How do you morally justify this contradiction? Your honest answers please?


You are comparing keeping people cold and in specific positions for long periods of time to Saddam having them thrown off of buildings and cutting off their limbs? How many terrorists have Americans fed into chipper shredders qpruitt?

Take a look here -> http://fdd.typepad.com/fdd/2006/01/alert_saddams_c.html

Once you have watched and pondered those videos come back and try that equivocation garbage again!

[firefox]

The left did this warmongering bit as well, though slightly different language was used. As in wars past, the "making the world safe for democracy" bit was pulled out and dusted off. Six of one, half a dozen of the other, IMHO.

[piratemonkey]

You are comparing keeping people cold and in specific positions for long periods of time to Saddam having them thrown off of buildings and cutting off their limbs?Â*Â*


I'll compare them.Â*Â*It's a good comparison.

Both are just at different points down the same road of abjectly immoral behavior.

OUR government broke Jose Padilla's brain by torturing him.

[ECW]

AG Gonzales said The Geneva Convention was "quaint." Which of those torture techniques would you consider to be such?

[BoogyMan]

You are comparing keeping people cold and in specific positions for long periods of time to Saddam having them thrown off of buildings and cutting off their limbs?


I'll compare them. It's a good comparison.

Both are just at different points down the same road of abjectly immoral behavior.

OUR government broke Jose Padilla's brain by torturing him.



Source: Link (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1565798,00.html)

Now, after more than three years in custody, Padilla's lawyers are claiming that new images taken from a government video show that he received unduly harsh treatment while being held at a U.S. Navy brig in Charleston, S.C. The pictures, still shots from an unclassified Department of Defense video, show his hands and feet shackled as he wears headphones and blacked-out goggles while being escorted by three guards dressed in helmets and riot gear to a dental appointment.

Wow, sounds like prison................with dentistry.

So we are now accepting that he was tortured because HE says so? Once again, watch videos of what REAL torture is, and get back to me.

[Elrathin]

Once again, watch videos of what REAL torture is, and get back to me.


When you actually go through what the prisoners have, then maybe you'll hold some credibility on defining what is and isn't torture, until then it is a chicken response to say otherwise.

[AlonzoMourning23]

I think people fail to understand that many modern torture techniques don't look nearly as bad. They take advantage of what we have learned about humans physical and psychological nature. No long is torture as crude as it once was.

[BoogyMan]

El, that is the biggest bunch of hogwash you have posted yet. Once again you are equivocating and tearing down the truth as to what torture is to support the fantastic claims of the left and the self loathers.

Watch those videos. It sure isn't being cold or having to sit or stand in a single position for a long time. It is REAL torture.

[piratemonkey]

Wow, sounds like prison................with dentistry.

So we are now accepting that he was tortured because HE says so?Â*Â*Once again, watch videos of what REAL torture is, and get back to me.


"Real" torture?!?!Â*Â*Wow.Â*Â*That's an incredibly sadistic thing to say, Boogy.

The torture took myriad forms, each designed to cause pain, anguish, depression and, ultimately, the loss of will to live....
For nearly two years – from June 9, 2002 until March 2, 2004, when the Department of Defense permitted Mr. Padilla to have contact with his lawyers – Mr. Padilla was in complete isolation.

Two years of complete isolation alone is torture and against international law. Not letting him see a lawyer for two years is an utter violation of the US Constitution.

Stress positions, sensory deprivation and complete sleep deprivation were also used.

Do me a favor, Boogy.Â*Â*Go kneel in your driveway for 4 hours and then see if you can walk... nah, see if you can stand.Â* Then sleep on concrete for two years in the dark.Â*Tell me that isn't torture.Â*Â*Tell me it's a Christian thing to make someone do.Â*Â*Sometime I think I adhere more to Christian ethics than you do.

Boogy, this guy has PTSD... and very obviously so.Â*Â*What do you think caused that?Â*Â*Cuddling?

[BoogyMan]

Wow, sounds like prison................with dentistry.

So we are now accepting that he was tortured because HE says so? Once again, watch videos of what REAL torture is, and get back to me.


"Real" torture?!?! Wow. That's an incredibly sadistic thing to say, Boogy.

The torture took myriad forms, each designed to cause pain, anguish, depression and, ultimately, the loss of will to live....
For nearly two years – from June 9, 2002 until March 2, 2004, when the Department of Defense permitted Mr. Padilla to have contact with his lawyers – Mr. Padilla was in complete isolation.

Two years of complete isolation alone is torture and against international law.

Stress positions, sensory deprivation and complete sleep deprivation were also used.

Do me a favor, Boogy. Go kneel in your driveway for 4 hours and then see if you can walk... nah, see if you can stand. Then sleep on concrete for two years in the dark. Tell me that isn't torture. Tell me it's a Christian thing to make someone do. Sometime I think I adhere more to Christian ethics than you do.

Boogy, this guy has PTSD... and very obviously so. What do you think caused that? Cuddling?


Being in a terrorist detainee camp is certainly no picnic I am sure.

Did you watch the videos pirate?

[piratemonkey]

Being in a terrorist detainee camp is certainly no picnic I am sure.

I see you avoided the part about it being sadistic, unChristian, unconstitutional and against international law.Â*Â*I know those are easy things to ignore. :rolleyes:


Did you watch the videos pirate?


Boogy, Just because robbing a bank is illegal... does that mean stealing a purse isn't?

In both cases you are violating the same ethical norm.Â*Â*Just to different degrees.

You are arguing that it's OK to be immoral, as long as you aren't TOO immoral... and as long as you really, really think the person you are torturing is a bad guy.

[BoogyMan]

Being in a terrorist detainee camp is certainly no picnic I am sure.

I see you avoided the part about it being sadistic, unChristian, unconstitutional and against international law. I know those are easy things to ignore. :rolleyes:


Did you watch the videos pirate?


Boogy, Just because robbing a bank is illegal... does that mean stealing a purse isn't?

In both cases you are violating the same ethical norm. Just to different degrees.

You are arguing that it's OK to be immoral, as long as you aren't TOO immoral... and as long as you really, really think the person you are torturing is a bad guy.


No pirate, I didn't avoid those allegations, I find them to be without merit and therefore unworthy of redress.

Did you watch the videos?

[Elrathin]

El, that is the biggest bunch of hogwash you have posted yet. Once again you are equivocating and tearing down the truth as to what torture is to support the fantastic claims of the left and the self loathers.

Have it done to you then Boogy.


Watch those videos. It sure isn't being cold or having to sit or stand in a single position for a long time. It is REAL torture.


I have Boogy, but just because you show one extreme of torture does not equate something else not being torture just because it is to a lesser extent.

[potter]

Sorry bout that,

1. But this war is like no other war.
2. The enemy walk amongst us.
3. They act like regular everyday Arabs, wearing burk-as and sheets, when they blow themselves up beside you.
4. Or pretend to be businessmen, and hijack airplanes and crash them into buildings with innocent people in them, which I shall never forget and or forgive, freaking f'in forever!
5. This war on Islam is just begun.
6. It will only come to a pause, when we go nuclear on them.
7. This pause will not be permanent.
8. Then all hell breaks loose on them.
9. We win!

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas



Same excuses used by all dictators....only the target has changed

[piratemonkey]

No pirate, I didn't avoid those allegations, I find them to be without merit and therefore unworthy of redress.


I never thought I'd hear a Christian Conservative argue so stridently for moral relativism.Â*Â*I'm sure Jesus, who you are supposed to model your ethics after, would be just fine with your position.Â*Â*:rolleyes:Â*
44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. Matthew 5 Â*

Loving your enemy means just a little bit of torture, eh?

Tell me Boogy, is it OK to steal, as long as it's just a little money?

Is it ok to hit your wife, as long as you don't leave a bruise?

[Guitarmitch]

You obviously didnt want to have an honest debate because of how you titled the thread......

[BoogyMan]

No pirate, I didn't avoid those allegations, I find them to be without merit and therefore unworthy of redress.


I never thought I'd hear a Christian Conservative argue so stridently for moral relativism. I'm sure Jesus, who you are supposed to model your ethics after, would be just fine with your position. :rolleyes:
44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. Matthew 5

Loving your enemy means just a little bit of torture, eh?

Tell me Boogy, is it OK to steal, as long as it's just a little money?

Is it ok to hit your wife, as long as you don't leave a bruise?


Sorry, you cannot win this one pirate. You have a flawed understanding of justice. Did Christ come to cease justice? No.

Submit yourself to the governing authorities is the teaching that he left us with. Consider the following.

13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

Did you watch the videos?

[piratemonkey]

Sorry, you cannot win this one pirate.Â*Â*You have a flawed understanding of justice.Â*Â*Did Christ come to cease justice?Â*Â*No.

Submit yourself to the governing authorities is the teaching that he left us with.Â*Â*Consider the following.



You can't argue what our "governing authorities" should do and then a second later just say we should submit to whatever they decide.

Would you say we should "submit to governing authorities" if Gore was in the White House right now?
Would you say we should "submit to governing authorities" if the Feds started rounding up Jews?
You can't have it both ways.


And on top of that, you arguing for Moral Relativism.

Watching the videos (which I did) has absolutely no baring on this intellectual argument.Â*Â*By pushing those videos, you are attempting to make the argument an emotional one.

So again... torture is OK with you, as long as it's not too bad?

[BoogyMan]

Sorry, you cannot win this one pirate. You have a flawed understanding of justice. Did Christ come to cease justice? No.

Submit yourself to the governing authorities is the teaching that he left us with. Consider the following.



You can't argue what our "governing authorities" should do and then a second later just say we should submit to whatever they decide.

Would you say we should "submit to governing authorities" if Gore was in the White House right now?
Would you say we should "submit to governing authorities" if the Feds started rounding up Jews?
You can't have it both ways.


And on top of that, you arguing for Moral Relativism.

Watching the videos (which I did) has absolutely no baring on this intellectual argument. By pushing those videos, you are attempting to make the argument an emotional one.

So again... torture is OK with you, as long as it's not too bad?


Pirate, you seem to be arguing in a circle.

Those videos give you an idea of what torture is, we don't torture.

[gpruitt54]

You are comparing keeping people cold and in specific positions for long periods of time to Saddam having them thrown off of buildings and cutting off their limbs? How many terrorists have Americans fed into chipper shredders qpruitt?

Take a look here -> http://fdd.typepad.com/fdd/2006/01/alert_saddams_c.html

Once you have watched and pondered those videos come back and try that equivocation garbage again!


Thanks for your comments:

You are answering a question with a question. Not a good way to start. First you are asking me about a specific kind of treatment. Then you attempt to equate this with things that Sadam did. You have failed to address the question.

It is simple; I am asking a philosophical question. How does one hold on to a Christian ethic, an ethic that specifically address questions of war, and humanity, while at the same time express a political ideology that at its heart is antithetical to the teachings of the God that Evangelicals serve.

You are trying to build situational ethics argument. The question still remains, how does one obey the teachings and commandments of God while embracing the behavior of evil. Which God do the Evangelicals serve?

Try answering the question and keeping the trash mouth to your self. It does not add to an intelligent discussion.

[BoogyMan]

You are comparing keeping people cold and in specific positions for long periods of time to Saddam having them thrown off of buildings and cutting off their limbs? How many terrorists have Americans fed into chipper shredders qpruitt?

Take a look here -> http://fdd.typepad.com/fdd/2006/01/alert_saddams_c.html

Once you have watched and pondered those videos come back and try that equivocation garbage again!


Thanks for your comments:

You are answering a question with a question. Not a good way to start. First you are asking me about a specific kind of treatment. Then you attempt to equate this with things that Sadam did. You have failed to address the question.

No, gpruitt54, YOU equated it in your commentary and I pointed out the foolishness of doing so.

[gpruitt54]

You obviously didnt want to have an honest debate because of how you titled the thread......


I thought about that a lot. But I figured I would stir the pot a bit. Don't let the title discourage honest debate.

[piratemonkey]

Pirate, you seem to be arguing in a circle.

Hello, Kettle.Â*Â*I and everyone else seems to think that you are the one that is arguing in circles.

You didn't answer a single question.

You didn't even try to defend your position.


Those videos give you an idea of what torture is, we don't torture.


All you keep doing is claiming that "what we do" isn't torture.Â*Â*You ignore the fact that the almost the entire rest of the world thinks it IS torture.Â*Â*
You ignore the fact that we signed the UN Convention Against Torture and are now flagrantly violating it.
Torture is defined by the United Nations Convention Against Torture as "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity."

You ignore the fact that we sent Mr. Arar to Syria to be tortured. (Why couldn't we have just held him in NY?)
You ignore the fact that even "mild" torture still violates the moral tenet that torture isn't OK.

Keep saying "we don't torture."Â*Â*You may be able to convince yourself with enough repetition.

[gpruitt54]

No, gpruitt54, YOU equated it in your commentary and I pointed out the foolishness of doing so.


OK, so you don't intend to address anything, simply rant and scream about how much you disagree. Well, that is you choice.

I am actually interested in how Evangelicals square up the word of God against right-wing politics.

Have a nice day Dude.

[Elrathin]

Those videos give you an idea of what torture is, we don't torture.


WRONG, those videos give an idea of what SOME torture is, not ALL torture. Thank you very much.

[BoogyMan]

El, this is just ridiculous. Do you not get what "an idea of what torture is" means? I never said it was what ALL torture is, I am sure there is some that is worse.

Yet again, obfuscation at the expense of fact.

[Elrathin]

El, this is just ridiculous. Do you not get what "an idea of what torture is" means? I never said it was what ALL torture is, I am sure there is some that is worse.

Yet again, obfuscation at the expense of fact.



Boogy, first of all you're wearing out the word "obfuscation" so quit acting like some pompous English major and get it out of your vocabulary, it doesn't fit.

Second of all, Yes, I have an idea of what torture is and some of the methods we used I would classify it as torture. You are ok with it as long as you don't have to ever go through it yourself. That is detachment and Apathy for the problem.

[BoogyMan]

It does fit El. I wish you could see it from my side of the discussion.

[piratemonkey]

Second of all, Yes, I have an idea of what torture is and some of the methods we used I would classify it as torture.Â*Â*

This doesn't even matter.

What matters is that all these "methods" are defined as torture, by a document which we signed and ratified.

[ECW]

Second of all, Yes, I have an idea of what torture is and some of the methods we used I would classify it as torture.Â*Â*

This doesn't even matter.

What matters is that all these "methods" are defined as torture, by a document which we signed and ratified.


C'mon, pirate! You know those documents don't meat squat to the Neocons. The Geneva Conventions are "quaint" and don't apply anymore because George attached a signing statement to them. Liberals signed those things which means Neocons don't have to follow those rules. Besides what's a little loud music for a couple of weeks? People like Stoner deal with that crap standing on their head while stoned out of their gourds. THAT can't be torture!