Waxmann - Iraq is a Defeat

[Waffletush]

Bush pitched his plan last month to send an additional U.S. forces into Iraq to quell sectarian violence there, igniting opposition from Democratic leaders and some Republicans.

Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., called Iraq a "defeat."

"What we now have in Iraq is a defeat. We cannot achieve the illusions of the Bush administration that we will be able to create a stable unified liberal democracy in Iraq that is pro-American," Waxman said on the House floor. "Instead, we have sectarian fighting, death squads and a disabled Middle East that threatens to be engulfed by the nightmare that we have unleashed."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,252382,00.html

So the Democrats have achieved their long desired goal.Â*Â*A defeat in Iraq to put them in power.Â*Â*Way to go, way to go.

[Elrathin]

So the Democrats have achieved their long desired goal. A defeat in Iraq to put them in power. Way to go, way to go.


Yeah it's always been the agenda of democrats to secretly get the republicans to start a war, then have the republicans fuck up so the democrats can gain power. :rolleyes:

If you really believe what your saying, seek help NOW, professional help, because that is the dumbest thing I have read from you yet.

[Waffletush]

Yeah it's always been the agenda of democrats to secretly get the republicans to start a war, then have the republicans fuck up so the democrats can gain power.Â*Â*:rolleyes:

Who ever said it was the goal of Democrats to get the Republicans to start a war?

If you really believe what your saying, seek help NOW, professional help, because that is the dumbest thing I have read from you yet.

What's worse?Â*Â*That I didn't say that, or that once again you intentionally misquoted someone?

So sad, a ranking Democrat call our military a failure, and all you can do is launch into personal attacks on a message board.

Oh well, your blind partisanship has lulled you into a false pretense that our troops are failure and failure is a good thing.

[Waffletush]

............

[Elrathin]

Who ever said it was the goal of Democrats to get the Republicans to start a war?

Well it is about as plausible as your accusation.


What's worse? That I didn't say that, or that once again you intentionally misquoted someone?

I never misquoted you, only clarifying on what you said. There is a difference.


So sad, a ranking Democrat call our military a failure, and all you can do is launch into personal attacks on a message board.


Sorry but attacking the post is not a personal attack. I clearly attacked your post. If you can't handle that perhaps you would be happier elsewhere.

[lily]

So the Democrats have achieved their long desired goal.Â*Â*A defeat in Iraq to put them in power.Â*Â*Way to go, way to go.


This is so cute! It's the Democrats fault that this war has been run like the fiasco it is. In case your memory has failed you, a defeat in Iraq didn't put the Democrats in power, the mess in Iraq put the Democrats in power...........not to worry, we'll fix this mess.

[Stoner]

not to worry, we'll fix this mess.


Funny, I thought you were independent. Whoops.

[lily]

Stoner there are things that can be done to help alzheimers now days, I've explained my status more than once to you. I take it you must agree with what I am saying, since you can't discuss the topic and have to resort to hyjacking the thread.

[ECW]

She means Americans not affiliated with the Neocons who bungled this war will fix the mess. If you were coherent, you would have been able to figure that out.

[BoogyMan]

So the Democrats have achieved their long desired goal. A defeat in Iraq to put them in power. Way to go, way to go.


This is so cute! It's the Democrats fault that this war has been run like the fiasco it is. In case your memory has failed you, a defeat in Iraq didn't put the Democrats in power, the mess in Iraq put the Democrats in power...........not to worry, we'll fix this mess.


Another intentional misread? I think so. Waffle is obviously pointing to the FACT that democrats have been armchair quarterbacking the war and cheerleading a failure for over two years now.

I am sure you THINK you will fix it, but democrats think yanking the only bit of stabilization in the area out and letting the area completely implode is a fix.

[Elrathin]

Waffle is obviously pointing to the FACT that democrats have been armchair quarterbacking the war and cheerleading a failure for over two years now.

Don't worry Boogy, most Drug filled conservatives think this way.


I am sure you THINK you will fix it, but democrats think yanking the only bit of stabilization in the area out and letting the area completely implode is a fix.


Yeah because Conservatives have been doing SOO WELL these past few years at stabilizing Iraq, right Boogy? Or do you think Blank checks with no results is the conservative way?

Please do tell us that "STAYING THE COURSE" is the way to victory as your side has been saying all these years until there was finally opposition voted into congress.

[BoogyMan]

Waffle is obviously pointing to the FACT that democrats have been armchair quarterbacking the war and cheerleading a failure for over two years now.

Don't worry Boogy, most Drug filled conservatives think this way.

Are you accusing me of something Elrathin? This is a new low for you.



I am sure you THINK you will fix it, but democrats think yanking the only bit of stabilization in the area out and letting the area completely implode is a fix.


Yeah because Conservatives have been doing SOO WELL these past few years at stabilizing Iraq, right Boogy? Or do you think Blank checks with no results is the conservative way?

Please do tell us that "STAYING THE COURSE" is the way to victory as your side has been saying all these years until there was finally opposition voted into congress.

Answer the gist of the comment El. Do you really want to run from the region and let conflict broaden? If we pack up and run the whole area will collapse.

[Elrathin]

Are you accusing me of something Elrathin? This is a new low for you.

Not unless you are confessing something Boogy.


Answer the gist of the comment El. Do you really want to run from the region and let conflict broaden? If we pack up and run the whole area will collapse.


Keep in Mind Boogy, no matter who is control, whether it be Shiite or sunni, they are going to inflict damage on the opposition. PERIOD. It doesn't matter who those are in charge there are going to be atrocities committed against the opposite side. Only an idiot would think this wouldn't happen.

There is CIVIL WAR GOING ON Boogy. You can try to deny it all you want, but those in control (whether sunni or shiite) are going to attack those of opposite sides.

Honestly the only smart ones as a whole are the Kurds in Iraq which are waiting for those two sides to wipe each other out to gain control themselves.

The smart move IMO is to either divide Iraq into three parts or let the civil war pan out and try to side with the victors.

[BoogyMan]

Are you accusing me of something Elrathin? This is a new low for you.

Not unless you are confessing something Boogy.

Sophomoric trash like this will, in the future, be summarily ignored.

Keep in Mind Boogy, no matter who is control, whether it be Shiite or sunni, they are going to inflict damage on the opposition. PERIOD. It doesn't matter who those are in charge there are going to be atrocities committed against the opposite side. Only an idiot would think this wouldn't happen.

There is CIVIL WAR GOING ON Boogy. You can try to deny it all you want, but those in control (whether sunni or shiite) are going to attack those of opposite sides.

El, I have not denied that there is most likely a civil war going on, I have not cheered it on like the left has either.

Honestly the only smart ones as a whole are the Kurds in Iraq which are waiting for those two sides to wipe each other out to gain control themselves.

The smart move IMO is to either divide Iraq into three parts or let the civil war pan out and try to side with the victors.


Running away at this point is also not an option. If we let the sectarian violence continue we will most likely see a broader conflict with outside nations coming to the aid of their favored populace.

[Elrathin]

Sophomoric trash like this will, in the future, be summarily ignored.

Hey I'm not judging your offtimes Boog, you can smoke all you want.


El, I have not denied that there is most likely a civil war going on, I have not cheered it on like the left has either.

Yet you have supported an administration of "STAY THE COURSE", one would not DREAM of saying you support one even you keep voting one in.


Running away at this point is also not an option. If we let the sectarian violence continue we will most likely see a broader conflict with outside nations coming to the aid of their favored populace.


Yeah because sticking U.S. forces in the middle of sectarian violence while supporting the other side, will NOT IN ANY WAY SWAY the objective that we are supporting one side over another. :rolleyes:

[BoogyMan]

Yet you have supported an administration of "STAY THE COURSE", one would not DREAM of saying you support one even you keep voting one in.

What?? I think we should hold off the debate until you can continue in english. :P

Yeah because sticking U.S. forces in the middle of sectarian violence while supporting the other side, will NOT IN ANY WAY SWAY the objective that we are supporting one side over another. :rolleyes:


You ignored the point, yet again to repeat the DNC's talking point for the day El. If we leave now, the whole area will implode. Is that what your side of the isle wants to see happen?

[Elrathin]

What?? I think we should hold off the debate until you can continue in english. :P

your votes speak for themselves Boogy.


You ignored the point, yet again to repeat the DNC's talking point for the day El. If we leave now, the whole area will implode. Is that what your side of the isle wants to see happen?


In the case of Civil war where one side wants to obliterate the other side Boogy, any side you take is the side of genocide.

Yes, I think we need to let them hash this one out themselves.

[BoogyMan]

So you are for the cut-n-run scenario where the whole region spirals into war?

Having said that, I would like for you to get back up onto that liberal high horse and tell me who is the more concerned with world affairs.

Egads Elrathin, the hypocrisy is palpable in that scenario.

[Elrathin]

So you are for the cut-n-run scenario where the whole region spirals into war?

In comparison to the "let's support one side for genocide", yeah cut and run sounds good. But seeing as you like genocide, I see tht doesn't suport YOUR views.


Having said that, I would like for you to get back up onto that liberal high horse and tell me who is the more concerned with world affairs.

You're right, I don't support one side committing genocide against another, but far from me to rain in on your little party.


Egads Elrathin, the hypocrisy is palpable in that scenario.


EGADS again Boogy, this is becoming a habit with you when you are proven to support hitleresk style attitudes. Maybe this time with YOUR support we can rid ourselves of the Sunnis once and for all :rolleyes:

[BoogyMan]

So you are for the cut-n-run scenario where the whole region spirals into war?

In comparison to the "let's support one side for genocide", yeah cut and run sounds good. But seeing as you like genocide, I see tht doesn't suport YOUR views.


Having said that, I would like for you to get back up onto that liberal high horse and tell me who is the more concerned with world affairs.

You're right, I don't support one side committing genocide against another, but far from me to rain in on your little party.


Egads Elrathin, the hypocrisy is palpable in that scenario.


EGADS again Boogy, this is becoming a habit with you when you are proven to support hitleresk style attitudes. Maybe this time with YOUR support we can rid ourselves of the Sunnis once and for all :rolleyes:


Bwaahahahahahahahahahah.

You completely ignored the point, if you are going to ignore the point being argued you might at least try to form a sentient point of argumentation in your reply.

Not wanting the while area to implode is Histleresque? That has to be the silliest thing I have ever read. The whole point of staying there is STOPPING the sectarian violence rather than seeing it an running away. Running away GUARANTEES that it will not only continue, but that it will broaden to the surrounding countries.

[Elrathin]

You completely ignored the point, if you are going to ignore the point being argued you might at least try to form a sentient point of argumentation in your reply.


The way it is going right now Boogy, is the only way for peace is to support one side which is supporting genocide for the other.


Not wanting the while area to implode is Histleresque? That has to be the silliest thing I have ever read. The whole point of staying there is STOPPING the sectarian violence rather than seeing it an running away. Running away GUARANTEES that it will not only continue, but that it will broaden to the surrounding countries.


How can you stop one side from wanting to kill the other? Do tell Boogy on how you plan to stop that. That is the whole problem and no plan by this administration has challenged that. The only thing this administration has done is suport one side over another.

[BoogyMan]

Like I said, running away GUARANTEES the middle east will explode, I would like for you to explain how you plan to stop that in the grand recession your side of the isle plans for the area?

[Elrathin]

Like I said, running away GUARANTEES the middle east will explode, I would like for you to explain how you plan to stop that in the grand recession your side of the isle plans for the area?


I would like for you to explain how the U.S. supporting one side will prevent sectarian violence Boogy.

Maybe when you wake up to reality you will see that supporting one side is supporting the genocide of another.

[BoogyMan]

And when you wake up to reality you will stop running from the FACT that to leave now will cause the whole area surrounding and including Iraq to explode in sectarian violence.

[Elrathin]

And when you wake up to reality you will stop running from the FACT that to leave now will cause the whole area surrounding and including Iraq to explode in sectarian violence.


You think there is no sectarian violence now? seriously Boogy, if you don't deny that, what does it mean to take a side in it now? It means genocide to the other right?

Are you really saying that staying there now prevents sectarian violence? Worked good so far right Boogy, no sectarian violence so far right Boogy? :rolleyes:

[BoogyMan]

El, to say that I have denied sectarian violence when I have talked about it throughout this thread is completely and utterly dishonest.

I am NOT saying that staying by itself will stop the violence, but staying and working to stop it will.

[Elrathin]

El, to say that I have denied sectarian violence when I have talked about it throughout this thread is completely and utterly dishonest.

Then you understand that taking a side against one is genocide against another. Case in Point.


I am NOT saying that staying by itself will stop the violence, but staying and working to stop it will.


REALLY? So staying by and supporting one side against the other will stop it? Well maybe you are correct there, but that means genocide against the other.

[BoogyMan]

Then you understand that taking a side against one is genocide against another. Case in Point.

.....

REALLY? So staying by and supporting one side against the other will stop it? Well maybe you are correct there, but that means genocide against the other.


I made no statement to that effect, but you go ahead and propagate your fantasy that there can be no other outcome. How again is stopping the violence genocide?

[Elrathin]

I made no statement to that effect, but you go ahead and propagate your fantasy that there can be no other outcome. How again is stopping the violence genocide?


You have yet to say HOW you stop the violence.

We are currently supporting a SHIITE regime for the most part and the Sunnis are currently getting killed off by DEATH SQUADS, which has spawned the other side to attack as well (As if they needed a reason).

So again HOW DO YOU STOP THE VIOLENCE WHEN BOTH SIDES WANT TO KILL EACH OTHER and the U.S. is supporting ONE SIDE?

When you come up with the answer please pass it on to Israel and Palestine ok?

[BoogyMan]

I would argue that there are some huge walls of hate that have been built up by Sunni actions under Saddam. That however, does not justify the violence now when they have the chance at a better life.

You make it sound like the populace of Iraq had no voice in the choice of the government that is ruling Iraq now and we both know that isn't true. Iraq is going to have to help us to help it. That is what has to happen.

Your assertion that the U.S. is supporting one side is just your desire to polarize the debate and the side the U.S. is supporting is the government of the country.

[Elrathin]

I would argue that there are some huge walls of hate that have been built up by Sunni actions under Saddam. That however, does not justify the violence now when they have the chance at a better life.

Of course it doesn't justify it, but it is happening none the less, despite the denials of some here in the U.s.


You make it sound like the populace of Iraq had no voice in the choice of the government that is ruling Iraq now and we both know that isn't true.

Again, they decried they don't want Saddam, not that they all wanted to work together.


Your assertion that the U.S. is supporting one side is just your desire to polarize the debate and the side the U.S. is supporting is the government of the country.


Not my desire, it is the truth. How do you think DEATH SQUADS are allowed to operate? Seriously, Death Squads should not be able to operate in a government such as the newly found Iraqi Government unless there was CORRUPTION TO THE HIGHEST DEGREE or the U.S. Supporting one side.

So take your pick, either the U.S. is supporting one side or the U.S. is supporting an incompetent government.

[BoogyMan]

Or, Elrathin, could it possibly be that these people don't yet know how to be free?

There are going to be portions of that government that will let us down no matter what we do, we cannot quit now because of that.

You still have not answered how your side will keep the middle east from falling into a complete and total meltdown of sectarian violence if we pick up and run.

[Elrathin]

Or, Elrathin, could it possibly be that these people don't yet know how to be free?

You're right after 4 years these people don't know HOw to be free. :rolleyes:


There are going to be portions of that government that will let us down no matter what we do, we cannot quit now because of that.

Of course we can't quit, Death Squads are no reason to quit supporting a government. :rolleyes:


You still have not answered how your side will keep the middle east from falling into a complete and total meltdown of sectarian violence if we pick up and run.


And you have failed to answer how the U.S. being there is going to PREVENT sectarian violence without supporting ONE side over another.

[BoogyMan]

Or, Elrathin, could it possibly be that these people don't yet know how to be free?

You're right after 4 years these people don't know HOw to be free. :rolleyes:

Yeah, I am glad we never had any american on american conflict on this soil aren't you El? Egads man.



There are going to be portions of that government that will let us down no matter what we do, we cannot quit now because of that.

Of course we can't quit, Death Squads are no reason to quit supporting a government. :rolleyes:

The argument you are making is that anything that any portion of that government does with which we disagree is a deal breaking cut and run action? How ridiculous.



You still have not answered how your side will keep the middle east from falling into a complete and total meltdown of sectarian violence if we pick up and run.


And you have failed to answer how the U.S. being there is going to PREVENT sectarian violence without supporting ONE side over another.


I can tell you that leaving won't stop it. We have to stay in and work towards stabilization and do what is necessary to get rid of the insurgent agents while making it clear that sectarian violence will not be tolerated. It may require radical action. I have no delusions of grandeur that we can stop this quickly, but am not willing to pack up and run with no regard for the consequences.

Now answer the question. How will your side stop the area wide conflict that will most likely occur if we pack up and leave.

[Elrathin]

Yeah, I am glad we never had any american on american conflict on this soil aren't you El? Egads man.

EGADS MAn, is that what you wanted to hear?


The argument you are making is that anything that any portion of that government does with which we disagree is a deal breaking cut and run action? How ridiculous.

Yeah because the Death Squads is somthing we should just ignore and support right Boogy? Of course you would feel that way.


I can tell you that leaving won't stop it. We have to stay in and work towards stabilization and do what is necessary to get rid of the insurgent agents while making it clear that sectarian violence will not be tolerated. It may require radical action. I have no delusions of grandeur that we can stop this quickly, but am not willing to pack up and run with no regard for the consequences.

I'm glad you can sit there without having to risk your own life, your family's life or your friend's life on that statement. It must be easy to say "Stay the Course" when you yourself aren't having to declare bankruptcy because you can't take care of your business in over 18 months, it must be nice that the government takes the time to free your business from bankruptcy (Which it doesn't) all from the comforts of your own home when you say "Stay the Course" right Boogy?

Now with that out of the way, let's not other to include the fact that the everyday Iraqis life has been shattered. Let's not delude ourselves with he fact that there have been death squads against the opposing side that HAVE YET TO BE STOPPED, and let's delude ourselves into forgetting the hate each side feels for each other and let us wash ourselves with John Lenon songs on how we can love one another ok?


Now answer the question. How will your side stop the area wide conflict that will most likely occur if we pack up and leave.


There is no way to stop the conflict. The fact of the matter is they hate each other Boogy. They hate each other with such a passion that the only way to extinguish that hate is to let them have at it until enough of them get tired of that fire that consumes them and fight to stop it or they kill enough of each other that the other side wins.

When you learn of their history you will learn that Saddam kept a peace of the gun and without Saddam that peace is gone and it is an all out war. Was Saddam right? Hell no, but now that we have taken him out of the pcture we have to deal with what is left. And that is hatred.

How do you stop hatred Boogy? We are still dealing with it ourselves.

[BoogyMan]

Yeah, I am glad we never had any american on american conflict on this soil aren't you El? Egads man.

EGADS MAn, is that what you wanted to hear?

No attempt to answer the question, as usual.



The argument you are making is that anything that any portion of that government does with which we disagree is a deal breaking cut and run action? How ridiculous.

Yeah because the Death Squads is somthing we should just ignore and support right Boogy? Of course you would feel that way.

I never said that. Must you constantly jump to the absurd extreme?



I can tell you that leaving won't stop it. We have to stay in and work towards stabilization and do what is necessary to get rid of the insurgent agents while making it clear that sectarian violence will not be tolerated. It may require radical action. I have no delusions of grandeur that we can stop this quickly, but am not willing to pack up and run with no regard for the consequences.

I'm glad you can sit there without having to risk your own life, your family's life or your friend's life on that statement. It must be easy to say "Stay the Course" when you yourself aren't having to declare bankruptcy because you can't take care of your business in over 18 months, it must be nice that the government takes the time to free your business from bankruptcy (Which it doesn't) all from the comforts of your own home when you say "Stay the Course" right Boogy?

Another ill thought out skreed with no knowledge of fact? Sure is. It seems easy for you to assume I have no-one over there, because you want it to be that way. I choose not to use my family in debate, and quite frankly my military family is none of your business.

You truly despise this country don't you?


Now with that out of the way, let's not other to include the fact that the everyday Iraqis life has been shattered. Let's not delude ourselves with he fact that there have been death squads against the opposing side that HAVE YET TO BE STOPPED, and let's delude ourselves into forgetting the hate each side feels for each other and let us wash ourselves with John Lenon songs on how we can love one another ok?


You aren't interested in anything other than getting out quickly. I cannot imagine such irrational thought, and don't think you and I will ever agree on anything regarding the war. You choose to focus on everything possible to paint a picture of failure and you completely ignore the FACT that if we leave now, very bad much broader conflict is very likely.



Now answer the question. How will your side stop the area wide conflict that will most likely occur if we pack up and leave.


There is no way to stop the conflict. The fact of the matter is they hate each other Boogy. They hate each other with such a passion that the only way to extinguish that hate is to let them have at it until enough of them get tired of that fire that consumes them and fight to stop it or they kill enough of each other that the other side wins.

When you learn of their history you will learn that Saddam kept a peace of the gun and without Saddam that peace is gone and it is an all out war. Was Saddam right? Hell no, but now that we have taken him out of the pcture we have to deal with what is left. And that is hatred.

How do you stop hatred Boogy? We are still dealing with it ourselves.


You are right that we have to deal with the issue, and leaving now will not deal with it. It will guarantee that our grandchildren will be dealing with a much broader and much nastier conflict.

Iraq is no defeat unless we allow the Democrats to pull our forces out without regard to the consequences. Surely you can see this?

[Elrathin]

No attempt to answer the question, as usual.

When you ask a coherent question let me know.


You aren't interested in anything other than getting out quickly. I cannot imagine such irrational thought, and don't think you and I will ever agree on anything regarding the war. You choose to focus on everything possible to paint a picture of failure and you completely ignore the FACT that if we leave now, very bad much broader conflict is very likely.

I choose to focus on reality, you choose to focus on what COULD be. Yeah there is a difference there. You would rather pit U.S. soldiers lives on a dream you have rather than reality. Again, showing you don't care about U.S. soldiers lives as long as it doesn't mean YOU have to serve. As a veteran it pisses me off that many U.S. citizens care NOTHING for soldiers lives they only care about pretty dreams.


You are right that we have to deal with the issue, and leaving now will not deal with it. It will guarantee that our grandchildren will be dealing with a much broader and much nastier conflict.

Again, you have proposed NO SOLUTION except STAY THERE. That isn't a solution that is a hope. HOW do you stop the violence? Oh yeah you don't care you just say "Stop it". It is like saying "have the people of the U.S. stop committing crimes". IT is a pretty thought, but no reasoning behind it.

For once in your life "HOW DO YOU STOP THE VIOLENCE IN IRAQ"? If you can't answer the question, you can't solve the problem.


Iraq is no defeat unless we allow the Democrats to pull our forces out without regard to the consequences. Surely you can see this?


And you RepubliCONS have not SHOWN HOW TO MAKE PEACE IN IRAQ. You're only statement is "We can't leave". Not "how can we fix it?" You only care that the U.S. soldiers stay and die to fit your DREAM of democracy without realizing that the people have to be willing to FIGHT AND DIE FOR IT. If EVERYONE in Iraq was willing to DIE for democracy, we wouldn't be there.

The fact is they aren't willing to FIGHT (By joining the military and police as a whole) and possibly dieing for it. This is prooof.

[BoogyMan]

You have not answered the question initially posed El. What will you do to deal with the inevitable conflict that will happen on a region-wide basis if your side wins and we cut and run.

You again assume that you know my circumstances, which is a foolish errand on your part and I refuse to sink to that level.

What will your side of the isle do to stop the broader conflict in the absence of our forces? What will you do? How will your side of the isle fix the problem it will have made worse by removing our forces?

[ECW]

The solution that has been offered and rejected by this administration is an Arab League force of troops from the Muslim world of all nationalities and sects to take the place of American/coalition forces. These troops would be so integrated that no one could attack them without risking killing their own kind. Once that happens, the pressure to stop will force the militias and insurgents to stop the killing. Arab League forces have been used a nember of times in the Middle East and elsewhere but this White House rejected this solution out of hand because the Arab League refused to allow American generals to run the operation. The Arab League said No Thanks because it was the presence of Americans that drives many of the killings and turmoil so the killing goes on. Thank you George Bush.

[BoogyMan]

The solution that has been offered and rejected by this administration is an Arab League force of troops from the Muslim world of all nationalities and sects to take the place of American/coalition forces. These troops would be so integrated that no one could attack them without risking killing their own kind. Once that happens, the pressure to stop will force the militias and insurgents to stop the killing. Arab League forces have been used a nember of times in the Middle East and elsewhere but this White House rejected this solution out of hand because the Arab League refused to allow American generals to run the operation. The Arab League said No Thanks because it was the presence of Americans that drives many of the killings and turmoil so the killing goes on. Thank you George Bush.


ECW, let me thank you for at least making an effort to answer the question.

[Elrathin]

You have not answered the question initially posed El. What will you do to deal with the inevitable conflict that will happen on a region-wide basis if your side wins and we cut and run.


We deal with whatever side wins. If that is favorable fine, if not we will see. But as it stands, we cannot be the ones who decides who wins and expect peace.


You again assume that you know my circumstances, which is a foolish errand on your part and I refuse to sink to that level.

Your point is to "stay the course", you voted that way in 2004 and even admitted to it.


What will your side of the isle do to stop the broader conflict in the absence of our forces? What will you do? How will your side of the isle fix the problem it will have made worse by removing our forces?


Again, the problem has to work itself out, not us. This has been proven. What I would do to prevent outside involvement to to move all our forces to the borders of Iraq to prevent involvement from outside forces.

[BoogyMan]

FINALLY!

That is what I have been trying to drag out of you for an hour now.

At least I have an understanding of what you would do now, no matter whether or not I agree with its efficacy.

[ECW]

As much as I would like to say "Let 'em kill each other" (and have taken that path on this board out of frustration) the only REAL SOLUTION comes from getting out and letting the neighbors help out.

Iraq is primarily a Shia nation that has been dominated by a minority for decades and numerous abuses have been the result. The insurgency is that part of Iraqi authority that does not want to give up power. They fear the revenge that is already taking place on the streets of Baghdad. Sending in the Arab League force quells much of that and keeps things in place until the government can work out power sharing that protects the rights of the Sunni while giving power to the Shia and keeping the Kurds in business for themselves within the nation itself.

The Bushies reject this solution because they cannot control it. They are left out of the loop. And the killing goes on unabated.

[ECW]

Just to set a few things straight:

Waffle is obviously pointing to the FACT that democrats have been armchair quarterbacking the war and cheerleading a failure for over two years now.

To borrow someone else's words here: "Sophomoric trash like this will, in the future, be summarily ignored."


You truly despise this country don't you?


See above.

[BoogyMan]

As much as I would like to say "Let 'em kill each other" (and have taken that path on this board out of frustration) the only REAL SOLUTION comes from getting out and letting the neighbors help out.

Thats exactly what will happen if we hit the road now. They will kill each other unabated by any kind of moderating force.

Iraq is primarily a Shia nation that has been dominated by a minority for decades and numerous abuses have been the result. The insurgency is that part of Iraqi authority that does not want to give up power. They fear the revenge that is already taking place on the streets of Baghdad. Sending in the Arab League force quells much of that and keeps things in place until the government can work out power sharing that protects the rights of the Sunni while giving power to the Shia and keeping the Kurds in business for themselves within the nation itself.

There are inside and outside hostile forces in Iraq. Yes, there is revenge being taken, but as I have said so many times, wait until we cut and run and then you will see some serious chaos.

The Bushies reject this solution because they cannot control it. They are left out of the loop. And the killing goes on unabated.


It is much more abated that if we hit the road ECW.

[ECW]

The solution, as I said, is the one not taken by Bush: the Arab League.

A troop surge won't fix it. It just drives it underground. Removing ourselves as targets helps. Putting Arab troops in charge will bring a positive change. Nothing else will. We won't see this solution from this president.

[BoogyMan]

The solution, as I said, is the one not taken by Bush: the Arab League.

A troop surge won't fix it. It just drives it underground. Removing ourselves as targets helps. Putting Arab troops in charge will bring a positive change. Nothing else will. We won't see this solution from this president.


I am not sure what to think of this idea, but don't remember hearing anything about it. Where did you get the info?

[ECW]

If I can't dig it up tonight, I'll post it within a few days. I'm not going anywhere.

the Arab League has a deep interest in keeping both countries in the Arab sphere, free of Iranian domination.

The United States finds itself increasingly unable to stem the violence in Iraq, and it seems unlikely that a surge of troops will strengthen American influence. American negotiators have not won the confidence of Sunnis or Shiites, the principal combatants, nor even of Kurds, the uneasy bystanders. Mr. Bush may still consider himself a liberator, but among Iraqis there is a widespread feeling that his invasion was just the latest crime of Western imperialism.

Curiously, the Iraq Study Group, in acknowledging Iraqi distrust of the United States, suggested a greater diplomatic role for Syria and Iran, the very countries that have an interest in Iraq's instability. Though better relations with these two countries might be in Washington's long-term interest, they are surely not going to help matters in Iraq.

That's where the Arab League comes in. Because it is Arab, it can count on a level of trust, even among suspicious Iraqis, not available to the United States or its Western allies.

Critics argue that the Arab League, being heavily Sunni, can have no influence on Iraq's Shiites. They forget that the bulk of the Iraqi Army that defeated Iran in the 1980-88 war was Shiite. This fact alone tells us that Iraqi Shiites, much as they want to be rid of the American occupation, are not ready to become Iranian. The Arab League can work from this premise to restore Iraq's stability. The United States cannot.

The Arab League's Baghdad offices are recognized by the Shiite government of Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki. President Jalal Talabani, a Kurd, has strongly supported Iraq's involvement with the Arab League. Amr Moussa, the Arab League's secretary general, has had an open door not just to Iraqi officials but also to Moktada al-Sadr, the radical Shiite leader, and to Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, the country's most powerful cleric, who has never received an American official. The Iraqi foreign minister, a Kurd, has participated regularly in Arab League meetings.

To be sure, the Arab League cannot offer miracles. The situation in Iraq has deteriorated much too far for that. But with an invitation from the American president, it could immediately get to work at mediating the conflict.

If the objective is political stability and national reconciliation in Iraq, neither President Bush nor the Democratic Congress has a more promising option.


Milton Viorst is the author of ''Storm from the East: The Conflict Between the Arab World and the Christian West.

[ECW]

Here's another from a couple of years ago:

JEDDAH, 2 August 2004 � Saudi Arabia yesterday set conditions for the deployment of Muslim troops in Iraq and emphasized that they would replace US-led multinational forces and not supplement them as suggested by Washington.

�The dispatching of Muslim troops to Iraq needs a number of requirements to be met, (including) that these troops would be replacing the coalition forces currently there, not supplementing them,� Foreign Minister Prince Saud Al-Faisal told a news conference here after talks on the plan with Arab League Secretary-General Amr Moussa.

He also said that troops should be sent only at Baghdad�s request and work under the auspices of the United Nations.

more...

Arab News Outlet (http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=49257&d=2&m=8&y=2004)

[BoogyMan]

ECW, I thought your were going to bring something to the table of which I had never heard. I was disheartened to see you trying to hide the old Assyria and Iran line of argumentation under this new name.

In the 2nd article since the use of their troops was declined by Allawi and Powell and Allawi specifically asked:

Allawi also said Iraq was seeking assistance from friendly states to stem the flow of funds to insurgents, saying the time had come for a “strong and clear stand� against terror.

We can see that the flow of funding has NOT stopped and that to have brought some of the surrounding nations in to replace us would be a huge mistake as they obviously don't have the best interests of Iraq in mind.

Have you even considered the possibility that the people in charge actually know more about what is going on than we do?

[ECW]

I used to consider that but when I look at the totality of the situation I no longer believe that the people in charge (1) know what they hell they are doing, (2) are in control of the situation, or (3) have a solution to the killing. Events have overtaken us, overwhelmed us and made the lives of everyday Iraqis a living hell.

The arrogance of the Neocons and their insistence that facts were made to fit their theories instead of gathering facts and then forming theories has caused this meltdown. This war has been a clusterf*** from the beginning and, in my opinion, we ought to enlist the help of the Arab League to put together a large force, move them in as we move out, and be done with the whole thing. Their country wants us out and our country wants us out and this is the ONLY solution that does not guarantee a bloodbath upon our departure. The Iraqis have not "stood up" because they are more interested in revenge than in nation building. Time to leave.

[BoogyMan]

I used to consider that but when I look at the totality of the situation I no longer believe that the people in charge (1) know what they hell they are doing, (2) are in control of the situation, or (3) have a solution to the killing. Events have overtaken us, overwhelmed us and made the lives of everyday Iraqis a living hell.

The arrogance of the Neocons and their insistence that facts were made to fit their theories instead of gathering facts and then forming theories has caused this meltdown. This war has been a clusterf*** from the beginning and, in my opinion, we ought to enlist the help of the Arab League to put together a large force, move them in as we move out, and be done with the whole thing. Their country wants us out and our country wants us out and this is the ONLY solution that does not guarantee a bloodbath upon our departure. The Iraqis have not "stood up" because they are more interested in revenge than in nation building. Time to leave.


I have no problem with the idea of enlisting the aid of moderate Arab countries to assist us. That cannot include countries like Iran and Syria. Iran is pushing the world ever closer to the brink and should not be allowed to be a player until it submits to the U.N. resolutions it is now currently blatantly in violation of.