I'm starting to understand pro lifers more

[Alonzo]

I was at a small organic grocery store with a good selection of vegan and vegetarian stuff today. After picking up all the stuff I wanted I walk over to the register to pay and there's one woman in front of me just walking to the register. The thing is she was wearing a fur coat.

Now, I have a problem with fur coats to begin with, but out of all the places to wear a fur coat an organic store doesn't seem like the ideal place, particularly one that catered to a lot of vegans and vegetarians.

So, anyway, the woman behind the register comes over to her, sees her coat, and says "sorry, the cash registers broken". The fur coat woman then said "but I just saw you ring up someone", and the cashier just shrugged. She was the only cashier (and the only employee visible) in the store. The fur coat woman got aggravated and the cashier kept essentially saying that she's not going to ring it up. Finally the woman just walked out without getting anything of the stuff she tried to buy. As soon as she walked out the cashier looked at me and said "I can't understand why people still wear those things", and then rung up my order. I couldn't believe she did that, but at the same time, I thought it was funny (which I told the cashier), and would have no problem if more places did that. The last part is why I said I'm starting to understand pro lifers more).

[Elrathin]

As soon as she walked out the cashier looked at me and said "I can't understand why people still wear those things", and then rung up my order. I couldn't believe she did that, but at the same time, I thought it was funny (which I told the cashier), and would have no problem if more places did that. The last part is why I said I'm starting to understand pro lifers more).


The problem I have with with most Animal rights/Vegetarian groups that I have seen is at the same time they are protesting eating animals and killing animals for food or clothing, they are wearing Nikes (Or some other hide in their clothes) while eating some animal parts like Fish or Chicken. :D

[Cobra]

Stupid she should have rung up the ladies purchase. Should pharmacist make up fake excuses not to dispense birth control because they disagree with its use. Or a cahier not serve black because she doesn’t like blacks.

[Alonzo]

Well, it's not like she was born wearing fur (like black people are born black), or had some real reason why she had to wear fur (like the med thing). And it's not like she was denying the woman something essential for her health. You can argue whether or not she should have done it, but it was at most an inconvenience for the woman, not life altering like the meds can be.Â*Â*

The problem I have with with most Animal rights/Vegetarian groups that I have seenÂ*Â*is at the same time they are protesting eating animals and killing animals for food or clothing, they are wearing Nikes (Or some other hide in their clothes) while eating some animal parts like Fish or Chicken.Â*Â*


Though no worthwhile animal rights group, at least that stakes a claim to vegetarianism or veganism, eats fish or poultry. The vast majority find it absurd that some people claim to be vegetarian but eat fish and poultry, and I've never encountered one of those people involved in such groups.

Now, as to fur/leather. Animals made into fur coats are killed purely for their coats. Leather is a byproduct, most of the animals would still be dead even if leather production stopped. The same is not true for the animals used to make fur coats. Leather is using what is already there, fut is killing more animals.

Because of that, fur protestors aren't necessarily vegetarian, or aspire to be. Though the ones who actually bother to protest tend to be, the supporters (but not activists) are more likely to do things like that.

Oh, and just to point out, I'm wearing nike shox basketball shoes. They're not made out of any animal materials.

[Cobra]

Well, it's not like she was born wearing fur (like black people are born black), or had some real reason why she had to wear fur (like the med thing). And it's not like she was denying the woman something essential for her health. You can argue whether or not she should have done it, but it was at most an inconvenience for the woman, not life altering like the meds can be.Â*
They are totally similar. It's all the same, people having a belief and forcing it down other people’s throats even though they are supposed to be doing their job and not passing judgments. Your okay with what she did because you hold her beliefs just like some people are okay with the other examples I mentioned because they share that belief.

[Alonzo]

But there's an undeniable difference between inconveniencing someone over your beliefs and risking someone health over your beliefs. The issue of medication is of a differen magnitude.

[Cobra]

But there's an undeniable difference between inconveniencing someone over your beliefs and risking someone health over your beliefs. The issue of medication is of a differen magnitude.

So is the level of torture other countries order and the level of torture the US orders. Many liberals claim that it is the principle not the level of inconvenience, actually people are always talking to me about principle. The principle is in this case the same even if it isn’t the same magnitude.

Not arguing they’re the same magnitude just in principle if you believe one you should believe the other or your just basing you opinion on wether or not you agree with the action being take in that one situation.

[Alonzo]

Well, I wouldn't care if a neo nazi skinhead was refused service, and in that case I think most people wouldn't be bothered by it.

And I've never been one to argue that principle is all that matters, at least when not discussing issues of equality regarding who the person is, as opposed to what the person chooses.

Now if people went and smashed her car window, that's obviously different. Honestly I probably wouldn't feel sorry for her or care, but I wouldn't encourage it. There's a line that's crossed there.

[Labrocca]

Trying to stay on topic...it's a good point that those who are vegans and vegetarians are often pro-abortion rights. Which imho is a conflict. How can you be for the rights of animals when you can't even be for the rights of babies?

[Alonzo]

Most abortions take place before the fetus has any awareness. And, even if it were done in the 7th month, the being is always part of an adult (at least biologically) being. It is part of someone elses body.

Not removing the fetus could have disasterous consequences on a womans life, not killing a cow may simply mean you have to buy an imitation leather jacket.

[sbannon]

This is sad. Zo, you're honestly applauding a cashier for discriminating against someone for the clothes they wore? I don't care what your personal thoughts on fur are, it's as irrelevant as my thoughts on plaid... the bottom line is this cashier acted in ignorance towards another individual because they were different or had made different choices in their life. It's not a criminal offense, but certainly not deserving of praise either. And personally, in my mind it's more of a supporting argument for pro-choicers than pro-lifers.

On a related side note, I think cows, chickens and chinchillas all make poor pets, but serve a greater purpose--one might even say it's a higher calling--as meals and apparel to nourish and protect us more evolved animals.

[BoogyMan]

Egads, you think you know something about someone and find out that they are a closeted plaidophobe!

[attachment=117]

[Alonzo]

This is sad. Zo, you're honestly applauding a cashier for discriminating against someone for the clothes they wore?

Well, what would your opinion be if it was a guy wearing a hitler shirt with a swastika tattoo? And, why would your opinion be that way?

the bottom line is this cashier acted in ignorance towards another individual because they were different or had made different choices in their life.

Well, I'm pretty sure someone wearing fur thinks wearing fur is acceptable. So I wouldn't really consider it ignorance towards another individual, since assumptions about them only involve whether they think wearing fur is desirable. Now if she were to assume that the woman drinks puppy blood, then that would be ignorance.

On a related side note, I think cows, chickens and chinchillas all make poor pets, but serve a greater purpose--one might even say it's a higher calling--as meals and apparel to nourish and protect us more evolved animals.

I find this statement bizarre. Particularly the chinchilla part, since they didn't even evolve due to humans (unlike cows and chickens which were altered through breeding), though they were almost driven to extinction because of humans. Also the part about animals being slaughtered in factories or to wear is something of a higher calling (the wear part especially) just leaves me confused.

[Cobra]

This is sad. Zo, you're honestly applauding a cashier for discriminating against someone for the clothes they wore?

Well, what would your opinion be if it was a guy wearing a hitler shirt with a swastika tattoo? And, why would your opinion be that way?

It would be mine.

Also are you completely sure it was real fur. They make pretty good immitation stuff.

[sbannon]

This is sad. Zo, you're honestly applauding a cashier for discriminating against someone for the clothes they wore?

Well, what would your opinion be if it was a guy wearing a hitler shirt with a swastika tattoo? And, why would your opinion be that way?
If I had any opinion (meaning I devoted time to form an opinion of some stranger's clothing, which I usually don't), whatever it was it would be kept to myself. And it certainly wouldn't be reflected in the way I treated him, especially in a business environment.

the bottom line is this cashier acted in ignorance towards another individual because they were different or had made different choices in their life.

Well, I'm pretty sure someone wearing fur thinks wearing fur is acceptable. So I wouldn't really consider it ignorance towards another individual, since assumptions about them only involve whether they think wearing fur is desirable. Now if she were to assume that the woman drinks puppy blood, then that would be ignorance.

See, and I would think someone wearing fur only needed to think it was acceptable to themselves to do so. In fact, I would be willing to bet that the lady in this story gave no considerations what so ever to what opinions some cashier might have when purchasing her wardrobe.

Sure, we all are entitled to our opinions on what's right and wrong, but we're not entitled to force them upon others. For example, I have the right to hold my belief that reality television is rotting the brains of every voyeur who watches it. I also have the right to picket and organize events that promote my view. I can try to pressure the corporate sponsors behind reality shows and even try to encourage my elected officials to write legislation according to my views.

But I don't have the right to demand you don't watch it on your TV so long as it's legal, nor should I be able to take it upon myself if I were a salesman at the electronics store to prevent you from buying a TV because you'll watch reality programming on it. That crosses a line into your personal life and space that I'm not entitled to invade for my beliefs.

[Labrocca]

Most abortions take place before the fetus has any awareness. And, even if it were done in the 7th month, the being is always part of an adult (at least biologically) being. It is part of someone elses body.

Not removing the fetus could have disasterous consequences on a womans life, not killing a cow may simply mean you have to buy an imitation leather jacket.


As a Vegan you don't eat eggs.Â*Â*How about you tell me why you don't?Â*Â*It doesn't hurt the chicken...technically it was never "born".Â*Â*It's just proteins and whatever.

Yeah eating eggs is terrible but killing unborn human fetus is just fine. Explain your position on this one...would love to hear your reasoning.

[Drocket]

As a Vegan you don't eat eggs. How about you tell me why you don't? It doesn't hurt the chicken...technically it was never "born". It's just proteins and whatever.

Actually, an egg isn't even a chicken fetus, at least the ones you get at the store, as they're not fertilized (trust me, you never want to eat a fertilized egg - I had an aunt who raised chickens for a while and gave us some, and they had blood veins in them. Eggs should NOT bleed when you crack them. *gag*) Commercial eggs are actually more accurately described as part of the chickens menstrual cycle. Mmm, menstrual castoff - tasty.

Anyway, I believe the most common objection vegans have to eggs isn't the 'hurting a chicken' angle directly, but the conditions that commercial egg-producing chickens are kept in. That was actually the reason my previously-mentioned aunt got into chicken-raising: she's been an on-and-off vegetarian for a long time because she's an animal-lover, and figured if she kept the chickens herself, she could still have eggs without the guilt, as she could treat the chickens well. Turned out to be a ridiculous amount of work, though, so eventually, the chickens went bye-bye (come to think of it, I never did ask where they went...)

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But I hate to pile on here, but I don't get all that many chances to pile on ZO, so here I go.
2. *ANYONE*, who can not eat an egg for some stupid reason, but condones the murder of a human, is got to have his priorities out of place.
3. Seeing Zo, was in the womb once, and came by way of birth from a woman's womb, I would feel deeply that he would respect that fact, and at the least offer the same protections he was afforded while he was riding in the womb.
4. In my excellent view, *Zo is a Hypocrite to the Max*.
5. And I do not think he can prove otherwise.
6. Labrocca just laid you wide open here, and I am very surprised that he would bring this up.
7. And Zo is going to need some hellacious fancy foot work to dance his way out of this.
8. I am looking forward to reading all about it.
9. Don't worry ZO, you are like so many misguided folks, your views on abortion are more or less atrocious, and *Anti-Human.*
10. When you begin to realize this, and your dance begins, then and only then will your feet start to touch the ground again.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Saigio]

Chess, are you saying, that to satisfy your faith in america, we should take aeay a womans right to bodily integrity? If the fetus is an unwanted pregnency, then it is using the womans body without her permission? Should she be punished for being raped, or having faulty birth-control?

[Alonzo]

See, and I would think someone wearing fur only needed to think it was acceptable to themselves to do so. In fact, I would be willing to bet that the lady in this story gave no considerations what so ever to what opinions some cashier might have when purchasing her wardrobe.

Obviously. And the ideo of fur being acceptable is what caused the reaction.

Sure, we all are entitled to our opinions on what's right and wrong, but we're not entitled to force them upon others. For example, I have the right to hold my belief that reality television is rotting the brains of every voyeur who watches it. I also have the right to picket and organize events that promote my view. I can try to pressure the corporate sponsors behind reality shows and even try to encourage my elected officials to write legislation according to my views.

But I don't have the right to demand you don't watch it on your TV so long as it's legal, nor should I be able to take it upon myself if I were a salesman at the electronics store to prevent you from buying a TV because you'll watch reality programming on it. That crosses a line into your personal life and space that I'm not entitled to invade for my beliefs.


Again, pick something you find reprehensible (such as a nazi skinhead) and see how concerned you are if they're denied service.

As a Vegan you don't eat eggs. How about you tell me why you don't? It doesn't hurt the chicken...technically it was never "born". It's just proteins and whatever.

Yeah eating eggs is terrible but killing unborn human fetus is just fine. Explain your position on this one...would love to hear your reasoning.

Well, the issue wouldn't be eggs. Most vegans wouldn't care if you ate a thousand eggs a day. It's the treatment of the animals involved in making the eggs. It's actually not uncommon for vegans to make clothing out of animal fur (including dog) if it's been shed, or sheered, in the case of sheep, alpaca etc. The reason is, in those cases, they know that the animal was not harmed or exploited for the sole purpose of their fur. For example, a vegan woman who makes wool clothing from her pet alpaca usually recieved the alpaca as a pet, and the wool was just a bonus.

3. Seeing Zo, was in the womb once, and came by way of birth from a woman's womb, I would feel deeply that he would respect that fact, and at the least offer the same protections he was afforded while he was riding in the womb.

I give you permission to kill fetus Zo.

[sbannon]

Again, pick something you find reprehensible (such as a nazi skinhead) and see how concerned you are if they're denied service.
Zo, you've completely missed my point apparently. It simply doesn't matter how reprehensible I might find somebody's choices, I will still respect their right to make them and not act in a petty or ridiculing manner towards them.

That's where this cashier went over the line, and honestly where animal rights activists have often lost my support over the years. They seem to think that their opinions have some superior weight to everyone else's which excuses them from behaving in a respectful manner towards anyone who doesn't see it their way. They don't. We are all equally entitled to our opinions and choices, and to an equal amount of respect for our differences as well.

It's that lack of respect towards fellow human beings that I find far more reprehensible than someone wearing a fur coat. Of-course people in our society are going to mistreat animals when the loudest group in our society against that so often mistreats people.

[Alonzo]

Well, if you respect someone who's a nazi in this day and age then you're in a small minority.

I can sit here and say what I think should be allowed legally, and I can also say what I, as simply a citizen, think. They're going to be very different answers.

Though I think fur should be illegal, so I don't think she should be allowed to choose to wear fur. Fur, considering it is the primary product, not a byproduct, and simply a luxury, is more problematic than leather or meat.

[lily]

alonzomourning23 Wrote:
Again, pick something you find reprehensible (such as a nazi skinhead) and see how concerned you are if they're denied service.

I'm going to go a little off topic and touch on this one, ok?

Drug dealers. I think most everyone here thinks that they are reprehensible. Working in a bank, I had to refuse to take their money to launder. Working in retail, when the kids would come in with wads that would stuff a horse, I would have to take their money or lose my job.

Sorry, Zo.......but it was that girls job to take her money. On the flip side, if a woman goes into a health food store wearing fur.......she has got to be clueless. I doubt she even "got it".

[sbannon]

Well, if you respect someone who's a nazi in this day and age then you're in a small minority.

I can sit here and say what I think should be allowed legally, and I can also say what I, as simply a citizen, think. They're going to be very different answers.

Though I think fur should be illegal, so I don't think she should be allowed to choose to wear fur. Fur, considering it is the primary product, not a byproduct, and simply a luxury, is more problematic than leather or meat.

Ah-ha, but your opinion is based on an assumption I see, that I can say first hand is wrong.

My Grandmother--who lived her entire life and died below the poverty line--wore a fur coat most of her adult years. It had been handed down when her mother passed away. The coat certainly held some sentimental value for my Grandmother because it had been her mother's, but it held no social status nor was it a luxury garment for her. It was a well crafted coat that kept her warm through the Pittsburgh winters.

And it's not about me respecting a modern day nazi, it's that I respect everybody's right to make their own choices, provided those choices are legal and don't infringe upon my rights--which don't include having my opinions or tastes be legislated.

[Alonzo]

So your grandmother thought wearing fur was wrong, but did it purely out of sentimental reasons?

But fur is a luxury. It's not an essential product by any stretch in our world. Meat is not essential, but close enough. Leather is a byproduct. Fur is produced for the sole purpose of clothing, and that can just as easily be made out of many other materials.

And it's not about me respecting a modern day nazi, it's that I respect everybody's right to make their own choices, provided those choices are legal and don't infringe upon my rights--which don't include having my opinions or tastes be legislated.

Everyone wants their opinions legislated, the opinions to be legislated just differ depending on the person. Some common opinions include prohibitions on child labor and child sex. People shouldn't be able to make any choice without restriction.

[sbannon]

So your grandmother thought wearing fur was wrong, but did it purely out of sentimental reasons?
To be absolutely honest, I don't know what her thoughts on wearing fur were, or if she ever even gave it any thought. I know she came from poverty, immigrated here with 12 siblings, and her parents were simple farmers.

Her coat was made in Czechoslovakia, and her mother most likely acquired it in trade for food or live-stock at some point.

The point was that fur coat had nothing to do with luxury. I admit there was probably some sentimental value attached to it for my Grandmother since it had been her mother's, but it was kept and worn out of necessity for decades.

I can say with full, honest confidence that I know the notion of
"discarding a perfectly good (as in worked to keep her warm) coat and having to spend money she couldn't spare on another just because of what the coat was made of" would never have crossed her practical mind.

But fur is a luxury. It's not an essential product by any stretch in our world. Meat is not essential, but close enough. Leather is a byproduct. Fur is produced for the sole purpose of clothing, and that can just as easily be made out of many other materials.
Again, this is only valid when working with the assumption that every fur coat being worn is viewed by the wearer as a luxury, and that's simply not the case.

And it's not about me respecting a modern day nazi, it's that I respect everybody's right to make their own choices, provided those choices are legal and don't infringe upon my rights--which don't include having my opinions or tastes be legislated.
Everyone wants their opinions legislated, the opinions to be legislated just differ depending on the person. Some common opinions include prohibitions on child labor and child sex. People shouldn't be able to make any choice without restriction.
Wanting your opinions legislated is different than having a right to get them legislated, which doesn't exist. I can want anything to be legislated, but I'm not entitled to have it so, nor to infringe upon the rights and lives of those who hold opposing opinions.

And people's rights to make any choices they want within the law absolutely must be respected without restrictions. That's America.

[Labrocca]

Well, the issue wouldn't be eggs. Most vegans wouldn't care if you ate a thousand eggs a day. It's the treatment of the animals involved in making the eggs. It's actually not uncommon for vegans to make clothing out of animal fur (including dog) if it's been shed, or sheered, in the case of sheep, alpaca etc. The reason is, in those cases, they know that the animal was not harmed or exploited for the sole purpose of their fur. For example, a vegan woman who makes wool clothing from her pet alpaca usually recieved the alpaca as a pet, and the wool was just a bonus.Â*Â*


Well what about you? Is that the reason you don't eat eggs? Would you eat eggs if you had your own chickens or bought them from a friendly organic store. I buy mostly organic eggs myself.

[Drocket]

Well what about you? Is that the reason you don't eat eggs? Would you eat eggs if you had your own chickens or bought them from a friendly organic store. I buy mostly organic eggs myself.

If you're buying organic eggs, you're almost certainly pouring money down the drain for absolutely nothing at all in return. There aren't any binding legal definitions of 'organic' in United States, as it applies to chickens, which often means that the eggs found in 'organic' egg cartons are quite literally the exact same eggs as in normal egg cartons - for more money, of course. Heck, I did a Google search for 'organic eggs' right before I posted this, as the top sites for producers that actually explain what's special about their eggs only describe them as being from chickens that haven't had 'pesticides, antibiotics, or hormones'. Nobody in their right mind sprays chickens with pesticides (why even advertise that?), chickens are disposable creatures, not worth the cost of antibiotics on ANY farm, and using hormones on chickens is illegal in the US (a number of problems back in the 50's...) So right off the bat, their definition of what makes their eggs special is complete bull.

The only meaningful definition for eggs (as it applies to animal rights activists and eggs) would be cage-free. Even that definition, though, doesn't really mean that the chickens are cared for in any meaningful way. It usually just means they get stuffed by the thousands in tiny fenced-in areas instead of tiny caged-in areas.

[Alonzo]

To be absolutely honest, I don't know what her thoughts on wearing fur were, or if she ever even gave it any thought. I know she came from poverty, immigrated here with 12 siblings, and her parents were simple farmers.

Her coat was made in Czechoslovakia, and her mother most likely acquired it in trade for food or live-stock at some point.

The point was that fur coat had nothing to do with luxury. I admit there was probably some sentimental value attached to it for my Grandmother since it had been her mother's, but it was kept and worn out of necessity for decades.

I can say with full, honest confidence that I know the notion of
"discarding a perfectly good (as in worked to keep her warm) coat and having to spend money she couldn't spare on another just because of what the coat was made of" would never have crossed her practical mind.

I don't think you understand the term "luxury". It can refer to anything that is unnecesary. The fur industry produces nothing but luxury goods. This isn't like leather shoes where they absolutely dominate the market either, and anything non leather may have performance issues (especially cheap stuff) or be hard to come by.

Besides, and lets be honest, the amount of people wearing a full fur coat (not fur trimmed) that they only have due to sentimental value or inability to afford otherwise is easily the exception. Unless we're talking about the homeless people PETA gives donated fur coats to, they're typically items people want to have due to them wanting that coat.

Wanting your opinions legislated is different than having a right to get them legislated, which doesn't exist. I can want anything to be legislated, but I'm not entitled to have it so, nor to infringe upon the rights and lives of those who hold opposing opinions.

And people's rights to make any choices they want within the law absolutely must be respected without restrictions. That's America.


No, legally peoples choices must be respected. I have the choice as an individual to respect their choices or not. The gray area, legally, would be the fact that no sign was posted. But if the store had posted a sign at the entrance saying "fur coats are not allowed in the store", then they'd be within their right to do that.

[sbannon]

Zo, I understand the term luxury. You're using the word as though it has an inherited negative attachment to it in some way, and it doesn't. Just because you think it's morally wrong to wear a fur coat doesn't make it so, it only makes it your opinion, and in a free society where wearing fur is still legal, your opinion carries no more weight than the lady shopper's did.

Look, I'm not trying to change your mind here about the wearing of fur, hell, I don't really disagree with you. But so long as animal rights activists continue to come to the table with little or no respect for those who do disagree they'll never receive the respect that their issues actually deserve.

In other words, petty acts of ignorance such as this cashier's, do a ton of harm to your cause, and to what benefit? So that you and the cashier could share a chuckle, I hope the laugh was worth it.

[Alonzo]

But so long as animal rights activists continue to come to the table with little or no respect for those who do disagree they'll never receive the respect that their issues actually deserve.

In other words, petty acts of ignorance such as this cashier's, do a ton of harm to your cause, and to what benefit? So that you and the cashier could share a chuckle, I hope the laugh was worth it.

Well, the years the activists were most vocal actually saw a significant reduction in fur. Fur is making a comeback, and it has been reappearing in stores that once did not stock it.

Now I'm not advocating certain, and I think some things cross the line and could possibly be harmful (things such as paint were used when fur took a nosedive, but there was a whole awareness thing at the time too). But, at the same time, if someone came running to me complaining about how their new fur was ruined I'm not going to care. I'd probably have some sarcastic negative comment playing in my head about the person akin to "it's your own damn fault". But I wouldn't engage in it or encourage others to.

But I don't see any harm if a store put up a no fur sign.

Well what about you? Is that the reason you don't eat eggs? Would you eat eggs if you had your own chickens or bought them from a friendly organic store. I buy mostly organic eggs myself.

Organic doesn't make that much of a difference, neither does cage free but cage free is the best of the 3 usually (normal, organic, cage free). But I don't know. Some things become disgusting in their own right. For example, pork is particularly disgusting to me. I'll eat things like a tofu dog, since hot dogs are often turkey and things like that, but the thought of imitation pork disugsts me as well. Same goes for things I never would have eaten at any time in my life, like imitation duck.

Disgust is the only issue though.

[Professor]

I'm taking a different view on this: what if I were the customer?

First, I probably would ask to wait while a new register was opened. Failing that I would have left the store and called the manager. If that didn't work, then corporate.

It's a bad business to run it that way. She didn't insult anyone. If you were an athesist store owner and a customer walks in with a cross necklace would you refuse to serve them?

[sbannon]

Well said, Professor. Gee, haven't said that in almost 20 years...

In my mind, people believing that the freedom to have their own opinions also somehow holds and justifies a right to ridicule or deny others of theirs, and provides free rein to engage others with any less civility, etiquette or respect is to me, a far worse problem in the world today than how many fur coats are being worn. Until we do better at how we treat each other as human beings, even and especially those who are different from ourselves, we'll never get better at how we treat animals.

[Alonzo]

I'm taking a different view on this: what if I were the customer?

First, I probably would ask to wait while a new register was opened.Â*Â*Failing that I would have left the store and called the manager.Â*Â*If that didn't work, then corporate.



It was just a small mom and pop store. Who knows what the owner would have thought.

Â*If you were an athesist store owner and a customer walks in with a cross necklace would you refuse to serve them?


I think there's a little bit of a difference with that.

[Cobra]

I think there's a little bit of a difference with that.

Not really that much, both incidents happen because a petty person decides to act like an ass because the customer apparently has different view points than thier own.

[Alonzo]

So when can we expect the new lawsuit over a guy being refused service for going shirtless? Or wearing a "I fucked your mom" (I actually saw something that said that, or said something pretty close, once) shirt.

Choice of attire and religious beliefs are a little different.

[Churchel]

After going through all of this I am wondering the same as another poster in regards to the coat being real or fake. Possibly the chuckle you guys had was in ignorance of modern manufacturing. I have a winter parka with a fake fur hood, would I have gotten the same treatment?

I know from my earlier years of fly fishing and fly tying that there was a change from using feathers from real birds to nylons. The fish did not notice the difference. Possibly your cashier friend 's assumptions fell into the "intelligence of a trout" range.

Tying this into the pro-lifer subject matter, I dated a young woman who worked as a counselor for planned parenthood. I did not understand how freaky some people are until the first day I dropped her off at work. Security guards met her at my car and escorted her in while people chanted and shoved religious fliers at her.

When I picked her up later in the day a group of people (being the same ones or not I don't know) were there singing church songs with a few semi-audible god-related phrases directed towards her above the singing. After the security guards walked her to my car and we drove off, I mentioned my state of shock and surprise to what she deals with everyday. She replied back that the reactions to her are nothing compared to the reactions towards her boss, who also deals with the same crowds but is currently 8 months pregnant!

[Alonzo]

After going through all of this I am wondering the same as another poster in regards to the coat being real or fake. Possibly the chuckle you guys had was in ignorance of modern manufacturing. I have a winter parka with a fake fur hood, would I have gotten the same treatment?


The parka with fake fur hood (though, recent findings have shown many are actually real) would not have caused an issue, primarily since many of them are fake, and fur trimmed always seems to cause less of a reaction that full fur. But full fur coats, the style popular in the 50's where the entire jacket was made of fur, that are fake seem few and far between.

It looked like this:

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/6654/furcoat25250ve8.jpg

Except a darker brown and it was longer.

When I picked her up later in the day a group of people (being the same ones or not I don't know) were there singing church songs with a few semi-audible god-related phrases directed towards her above the singing. After the security guards walked her to my car and we drove off, I mentioned my state of shock and surprise to what she deals with everyday. She replied back that the reactions to her are nothing compared to the reactions towards her boss, who also deals with the same crowds but is currently 8 months pregnant!


But, as much as I hate to admit it, it works. Doctors who provide abortions are aging, and fewer and fewer people are taking their place. I mean who wants to work in a field where you may find your face on an internet hit list? Clinics have closed, and areas where women once had access to abortions now they don't.

Frontline did a special on the last clinic in mississippi. In the description of the people interviewed for the show, the woman who runs a clinic had this said about her:

This woman has run an abortion clinic in the Deep South for more than two decades. FRONTLINE agreed, because of security concerns and as a condition of filming, not to identify her or the state in which her clinic is located. In this interview, she expresses her weariness after years of struggling to keep her clinic open and her feeling that abortion clinics in the South are being "triaged" and that not enough people are fighting to help poor women access abortion.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/clinic/interviews/