Minimum Wage Hikes Good For The Economy

[ECW]

When I flew to Seattle last week, airport security gave me trouble over the four-pound ham I was carrying. Several TSA officials gathered to consider the question of whether ham is a "gel," to which I retorted: If ham is a gel, so am I. I suggested that they biopsy it for hidden box-cutters. I offered to divide it into 21 three-ounce chunks, each appropriately stowed in a Ziploc baggie. But no deal.

So I broke down and told them I was flying into what I had been warned would be a food-free zone: Washington, with the highest minimum wage in the country ($7.63 an hour), could hardly be expected to have affordable restaurants or a functioning economy of any kind. Notable conservative economists have almost unanimously predicted that an increased minimum wage would result in wild price increases and mass unemployment, and I had a suitcase full of clippings to prove it.

I would be entering a culinary wasteland, facing fast food meals of $20 and up, and if I tried to fall back on soup kitchens, thousands of unemployed restaurant workers would be lined up ahead of me.

So imagine my surprise when I arrived, ham-less, in Seattle to find it fully functional, if not positively bustling. Restaurants were packed, and I could still get a grilled salmon sandwich for $7.95 at a cafeteria-style place overlooking the sound. My hotel was amply staffed with congenial people and - perhaps only because of the un-Seattle-like cold, no beggars approached me on the streets. Nor can you say the dire effects of a higher minimum wage just haven't had time to set in: Washington raised its minimum wage above the federal level of $5.15 an hour about a decade ago.

In fact, according to a January 9th article New York Times, Washington's economy is booming, generating 90,000 new jobs in the last year. Even business groups have stopped griping about the state's minimum wage. The article quotes a pizza store owner in the western part of the state: ''We're paying the highest wage we've ever had to pay, and our business is still up more than 11 percent over last year.''

My next stops were in California, with a minimum wage of $7.50 an hour, slated to go up to $8 next year. Again, no imported ham was required. Sidewalk taquerias flourished, as well, or so I'm told, as those celebrity sushi spots where you can pay $100 for a bite of fresh chum.

Overall, 29 states have raised their minimum wages above $5.15 an hour, and -- lo! -- the sky has not fallen. Could we have some apologies, please, from the economists who predicted a retail apocalypse?

Not that a $7 or even $8 minimum wage is utopian. My book Nickel and Dimed is often wrongly described as an account of my attempts to live on the minimum wage. Far from it; I averaged $7 an hour, which, according to the federal government, is well above the poverty level for a family of one. But I couldn't get by on that, thanks to the high rents even in trailer parks and residential motels, and I never went near pricey housing markets like San Francisco or Seattle. In the Seattle area, a "living wage" (calculated to reflect local housing and other basic costs) is $11.89 an hour for a single person and $25.35 for a family of three - more than three times the current minimum wage.

There is no moral justification for a minimum wage lower than a living wage. And given the experience of the 29 states that have raised their minimum wages, there isn't even an amoral economic justification either.

~link~ (http://www.alternet.org/story/47051/)

The Chamber Of Commerce in their ever-vigilant desire to force workers to accept less and less for the privilege of holding down a job would dispute what Ms Ehrenreich has witnessed. They never met a wage cut they didn't like or a lost benefit they couldn't spin into a better bottom line for business as a whole.

Despite numerous studies that show that more money in the pockets of the least paid workers means more consumer purchases and a greater boost for the local economy, The Chamber holds fast with their beliefs. Hopefully, Congress will push thru a nationwide minimum wage bill and render their arguments (and every other argument against paying our poorest workers more to help their standard of living) moot.

[Mayberry]

Blah blah blah. I'm not gonna pay some slug $7.50 an hour just because. You've got to be worth more than you are paid, or your employment is useless. And if you are not a slug, it is usually noticed very quickly, and your pay will increase. I started at a boat builder's at $5 an hour and within 3 weeks I was making $10, plus 5% on every boat sold. Life is not free, nor should it be. No one is ENTITLED to ANYTHING.

[Red Dragon]

Well the way I see it the Chamber Of Commerce just wants more money for it's self, thy're as greedy as they come. I really don't see how paying people enough money so they can live properly and support themselves will destroy the economy. Also not everyone's hard work gets noticed, especially if you’re working for a large business. But enough of my socialist ramblings, I want to hear other people's view on this.

[ECW]

No one is ENTITLED to ANYTHING.

Except to be paid a fair wage for the work that they are doing. In the greatest economic power in the world, no person should be working 40 hours a week and be paid less than poverty wages. Thirty years ago, the ratio of worker to average CEO pay was 40 to one. Now it's 200 to one. Have the value of CEOs gone up fivefold in the last thirty years or has the value of hard labor gone down because the least job can be filled by an illegal alien who will work for less than MW? Add in that the CEO is never punished for decreasing his payout by hiring illegals and you have a stagnant wage pool that punishes the poor and the middle class, no one else.

A hike in the MW is ten years overdue, the ten years the GOP has been running Congress.

[Oedipus Rex]

Well, I don't have to worry about this anymore. I sold my business because I was tired of government raping me of my earnings. Now, I do consulting with large aerospace firms and make nearly as much money as I did before. Who lost in this change for me? I'll tell you who... I had 12 guys working for me making an average of $27/hr. The lowest made $12/hr and the highest made $36/hr. Those guys will now have to work for someone else and hopefully, make as much or better than they did with me. Thank you California and San Diego.

[ECW]

Well, I don't have to worry about this anymore. I sold my business because I was tired of government raping me of my earnings. Now, I do consulting with large aerospace firms and make nearly as much money as I did before. Who lost in this change for me? I'll tell you who... I had 12 guys working for me making an average of $27/hr. The lowest made $12/hr and the highest made $36/hr. Those guys will now have to work for someone else and hopefully, make as much or better than they did with me. Thank you California and San Diego.


And to think you could have hired illegals to do the same job and paid them $4 an hour under the table, kept the difference for yourself and no one would have been the wiser. Oh, well.


[/sarcasm]

[Oedipus Rex]

Well, I don't have to worry about this anymore. I sold my business because I was tired of government raping me of my earnings. Now, I do consulting with large aerospace firms and make nearly as much money as I did before. Who lost in this change for me? I'll tell you who... I had 12 guys working for me making an average of $27/hr. The lowest made $12/hr and the highest made $36/hr. Those guys will now have to work for someone else and hopefully, make as much or better than they did with me. Thank you California and San Diego.


And to think you could have hired illegals to do the same job and paid them $4 an hour under the table, kept the difference for yourself and no one would have been the wiser. Oh, well.


[/sarcasm]


I don't know about you, but I want to be able to live with myself. Besides, there are a couple of reasons why your POV is impractical. 1. The government had the right to spot-check my facility at nearly any time. Some of my employees had to have security clearances. Imagine what would've happened if I had illegals working on those government jobs? 2. My reputation took years to gain. Why would I want to tarnish my name or my company name? 3. If I did hire an illegal and that illegal was hurt on the job... he/she could claim workman's comp. The state of California would penalize me with fines and my workman's comp rates would've went up.

I just didn't need those headaches and I only could hire American citizens anyway.

[ECW]

Geez, man. It was a joke.

Your rant said nothing about raising the minimum wage. Neither did mine. I thought that was obvious.

[Mayberry]

Except to be paid a fair wage for the work that they are doing. Right! And a toilet scrubber doesn't rate $7.50 an hour! Now I do agree that CEOs make an obscene amount of money, but if you took that away, it doesn't mean that the janitor should get it. If you drop out of school and go to work flipping hamburgers, you should be paid burger flipper (read MINIMUM) wages. That's called INCENTIVE. I didn't want to flip burgers or scrub toilets, so I finished school and joined the Navy to learn a trade. Minimum wage never has been, nor ever should be a living wage. It is an entry level wage. If you are 34 years old and making minimum wage, something is VERY wrong with you. You are a slacker, you have NO ambition, or self respect for that matter. Don't like your pay? Find a better paying job! None where you live? MOVE!

[firefox]

I am pro under the table! ;) I have never had a business permit, have done about half my wage work "under the table" up to this point, and pay the minimum amount of taxes I can get away with. Some of the people that I hire/reward get very high compensation for their time, while others get relatively little. Often, the situation applies to the same individual in various situations. This may just be me, but I really prefer working several different jobs/contracting out random things on an ever-changing basis. After all, they say it is better to have multiple income streams and work with many different people for maximum job stability and prosperity. You never know what might happen. You may get fired, loose clients, etc, so think of it as employment diversity. You wouldn't want to put all your investment eggs in one basket, so why would you do the same thing by having only one full time job?

Related directly to the topic: I live nearby Seattle and there is a very large homeless and critically poor population living paycheck to paycheck. Many are chronically unemployed. This is the result of minimum wage and various other labor restrictions that protect the "good old boys" in the unions and other high paying jobs at the expense of those who are willing and able to work for less. If I want to hire you for less than the decreed price fix (which is what it is), and you want to work for it, what right does the state have to get involved?

The same applies to the various "employee benefits": Why is it "bad"/illegal for you to encourage responsibility and thrift amongst your employees by paying them higher wages so they have the freedom to shop around for the best insurance? This is why healthcare costs are so high, guys. Government mandates that prevent choice, flexibility, and innovation in the field.

[lily]

Mayberry. You have to factor in inflation. Making $5.00 an hour doesn't even give you enough money to buy your lunch at where you are flipping the burgers.

[Oedipus Rex]

Except to be paid a fair wage for the work that they are doing. Right! And a toilet scrubber doesn't rate $7.50 an hour! Now I do agree that CEOs make an obscene amount of money, but if you took that away, it doesn't mean that the janitor should get it. If you drop out of school and go to work flipping hamburgers, you should be paid burger flipper (read MINIMUM) wages. That's called INCENTIVE. I didn't want to flip burgers or scrub toilets, so I finished school and joined the Navy to learn a trade. Minimum wage never has been, nor ever should be a living wage. It is an entry level wage. If you are 34 years old and making minimum wage, something is VERY wrong with you. You are a slacker, you have NO ambition, or self respect for that matter. Don't like your pay? Find a better paying job! None where you live? MOVE!


Amen! Mayberry for President!

[ECW]

Except to be paid a fair wage for the work that they are doing. Right! And a toilet scrubber doesn't rate $7.50 an hour! Now I do agree that CEOs make an obscene amount of money, but if you took that away, it doesn't mean that the janitor should get it. If you drop out of school and go to work flipping hamburgers, you should be paid burger flipper (read MINIMUM) wages. That's called INCENTIVE. I didn't want to flip burgers or scrub toilets, so I finished school and joined the Navy to learn a trade. Minimum wage never has been, nor ever should be a living wage. It is an entry level wage. If you are 34 years old and making minimum wage, something is VERY wrong with you. You are a slacker, you have NO ambition, or self respect for that matter. Don't like your pay? Find a better paying job! None where you live? MOVE!

Thanks for recycling an old Sam Kinison routine. It had been a long time since I heard it but I recognized it the second I saw you post it. It was much funnier when he did it, though. You should try it with a beret and a trench coat next time. Try screaming every few lines. That might make it a bit more amusing.

Your analogies don't hold a lot of water. In fact, they are kind of pissy. Bitching about a 34 year old who is working for MW is irrelevant. Even if it was a typical thing, what gives you the right to pass judgement on that person? Who made you cheerleader for the poor? Who gave you the right to tell people to move if there were no good jobs where they live? Maybe they can't afford to move. Maybe they don't have a car and they take public transportation. Are you offering to help them load their couch on a Greyhound so they can move to where the jobs are? And their dresser and bed? Maybe the guy just got laid off from his last job and needed a job to pay the bills. Maybe his child got sick and the job he had did not have health insurance so he signed on with McD so he could get some after a few months. Maybe his job got out-sourced and he needed to feed his kids. Maybe he needed a second job so his wife could get her teeth fixed. Maybe he took a second job so he COULD pay to go to a trade school and find a better job.

You have no damned idea why the people who work for MW are there and to slap some assinine reason up there to discredit the proposed hike is disingenuous at best. They deserve to to work their 40 hour week and NOT wind up under the poverty line once they do. Maybe your social sentiments don't favor fair treatment for everyone or a decent wage for 40 hours of work. Maybe the kid that has the toilet scrubbing job is trying to better himself by saving up for a car, or to move out of his mom's house, or even to move to a bigger town where the job opportunities are better for him. Your arbitrary decision that he is not entitled to get the MW is as Social Darwinist a position as I have ever seen posted on this board. Would you prefer that an illegal alien be hired that you could pay less to clean your filthy bathrooms be hired instead so that the wages will be forced down even more than they are now? Would you prefer that you install a coin-operated john in every bathroom that made you pay before you got to dispose of your wastes and would not release the door to let you out until you cleaned up after yourself, picked up all the stray toilet paper, and wiped off everywhere you urinated but didn't hit the inside of the bowl? Then you wouldn't need to pay a guy to scrub your toilets at all. Make everyone clean their own!

So, you see, Mayberry, you can contrive a whole host of reasons that you do not want to pay the lowest paid workers a fair and decent wage and I can come up with twice as many reasons that you should. Thankfully, you did not go on about the increase in MW pay causes job loss becuase I was ready to pop that Chamber Of Commerce myth right out of the water. In fact, here is the best citation against that argument. (http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_viewpoints_raising_minimum_wage_2004)

[ECW]

Additionally, I find it telling that Senate Republicans are the major stumbling block to helping the poorest of the poor to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. They are not asking for a handout, just a hand up.

President John F Kennedy once said:

"If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich."

We are a rich nation, but unless we do more to help the poorest Americans, we will not be able to save ourselves.

We have an opportunity today to take one bold step toward solving the problem of poverty in this great Nation. Today -- right now -- we can pass the House bill and send it to the President. We can raise the minimum wage and give 13 million hard-working people hope for a brighter future.

But, hey! Who gives a rat's ass about 40 year old platitudes from a Liberal President, heh? Screw 'em if they can't make ends meet. Get the hell out of Dodge, punk. Take yer unskilled ass and beat it! Yeah, that's the ticket.

[Oedipus Rex]

The poor should pay a 'poor tax'. That way, there would be an incentive to not be poor.:)

[ECW]

The poor should pay a 'poor tax'. That way, there would be an incentive to not be poor.:)


Only if the rich pay a "rich tax" as an incentive to prevent them from trying to screw over the poor.

[Guitarmitch]

3% of the workforce make the minimum wage. 90% or more of those are students and others living in a multi-income household.

The government has no right to tell anyone what a "fair wage" is. A 'fair wage is whatever a person is willing to pay or willing to work for. If a business doesnt pay enough, they will get only the worst workers. If a worker asks for too much, that business will get someone else.

Jobs will be lost as small business owners cut jobs to be able to pay the workers they already have. Jobs will be lost because small business will stop hiring new workers. The poor, young, an uneducated will be hurt the most because small business will no longer see them as worth the money and will hire someone older, better educated, more experienced to do the job.

Most small businesses operate at minimal to no profit margin.

Those businesses that have no choice but to keep workers and pay them the new wage will be forced to raise the price of their goods or services to compensate. This of course will hurt the very people you are supposedly trying to help. Afterall, these are the ones who will be most affected.

Unions who get their pay scale based on minimum wage will cost bigger businesses more money or cost people jobs as well. Again this will be reflected in the price of goods and services these businesses produce, or they will cut jobs. Either way, its bad.

Lets be honest here. This whole issue only affects a VERY SMALL protion of the working population. The numbers clearly show that 97% of all workers already make more than the minimum wage as it is.

So why then , is it such a big issue? What is the real reason behind it? It seems to me that Unions would have the most to gain by the raising of the minimum wage. A wage based on a % of $7.25 is WAY MORE than a wage based on a % of $5.15. Especially when multiplied over a 40 hour week by however many workers you count.

If you are going to debate the topic, be honest about what the real reasons are. Liberal platitudes about "the poorest of the poor" just doesnt cut it.

[Elrathin]

A 'fair wage is whatever a person is willing to pay or willing to work for. If a business doesnt pay enough, they will get only the worst workers. If a worker asks for too much, that business will get someone else.


Really? So how do you explain China and other countries third world wages they pay their workers?

It's called people need jobs and what would happen in that regard is they need them so bad they would have to accept those slave wages.

[piratemonkey]

A wage based on a % of $7.25 is WAY MORE than a wage based on a % of $5.15.

If you are right, then unemployment should have steadily dropped as the inflation-adjusted minimum wage has steadily gone down over the last decade.

Simple question:

10 years ago, when the minimum wage was still $5.15, but that $5.15 was closer to the inflation-adjusted equivalent of $7.25 today...

How was our economy doing?

[ECW]

Uh oh. I smell a Bill Clinton dodge coming up here...

[firefox]

Mayberry. You have to factor in inflation. Making $5.00 an hour doesn't even give you enough money to buy your lunch at where you are flipping the burgers.


This is a very good point. The solution here is to dissolve the Federal Reserve and return to a norm of 100% reserve, commodities backed currency! This will eliminate constant inflation and will end the crazy boom-and-bust cycle that we all know and hate today. With a stable currency, "COLA"s are not needed.

[Mayberry]

Fox, we are just beating our heads against the wall. There is no more common sense to be had in this country. We are on the downhill slide to socialism and the slow miserable death of democracy and freedom. I may just have to move to New Hampshire yet, as it may well become the last stronghold for freedom. Things are going downhill fast, and it scares me. I'm seriously considering moving to another country. I do not want to be part of this decay any longer. It sickens me.

[piratemonkey]

I do not want to be part of this decay any longer. It sickens me.


Thinking back to the working conditions before labor laws in the US sickens me.

Look at ANY country or time where there were no labor standards.Â*Â*Disgusting, inhuman working conditions always follow. Every time.

[ECW]

You mean, piratemonkey, that big business doesn't always have the workers' best interests at heart and that we should trust them to do the right thing instead of the cheap or expedient thing? Wow. Just wow.

[MAP2010.wireless]

When I flew to Seattle last week, airport security gave me trouble over the four-pound ham I was carrying. Several TSA officials gathered to consider the question of whether ham is a "gel," to which I retorted: If ham is a gel, so am I. I suggested that they biopsy it for hidden box-cutters. I offered to divide it into 21 three-ounce chunks, each appropriately stowed in a Ziploc baggie. But no deal.

So I broke down and told them I was flying into what I had been warned would be a food-free zone: Washington, with the highest minimum wage in the country ($7.63 an hour), could hardly be expected to have affordable restaurants or a functioning economy of any kind. Notable conservative economists have almost unanimously predicted that an increased minimum wage would result in wild price increases and mass unemployment, and I had a suitcase full of clippings to prove it.

I would be entering a culinary wasteland, facing fast food meals of $20 and up, and if I tried to fall back on soup kitchens, thousands of unemployed restaurant workers would be lined up ahead of me.

So imagine my surprise when I arrived, ham-less, in Seattle to find it fully functional, if not positively bustling. Restaurants were packed, and I could still get a grilled salmon sandwich for $7.95 at a cafeteria-style place overlooking the sound. My hotel was amply staffed with congenial people and - perhaps only because of the un-Seattle-like cold, no beggars approached me on the streets. Nor can you say the dire effects of a higher minimum wage just haven't had time to set in: Washington raised its minimum wage above the federal level of $5.15 an hour about a decade ago.

In fact, according to a January 9th article New York Times, Washington's economy is booming, generating 90,000 new jobs in the last year. Even business groups have stopped griping about the state's minimum wage. The article quotes a pizza store owner in the western part of the state: ''We're paying the highest wage we've ever had to pay, and our business is still up more than 11 percent over last year.''

My next stops were in California, with a minimum wage of $7.50 an hour, slated to go up to $8 next year. Again, no imported ham was required. Sidewalk taquerias flourished, as well, or so I'm told, as those celebrity sushi spots where you can pay $100 for a bite of fresh chum.

Overall, 29 states have raised their minimum wages above $5.15 an hour, and -- lo! -- the sky has not fallen. Could we have some apologies, please, from the economists who predicted a retail apocalypse?

Not that a $7 or even $8 minimum wage is utopian. My book Nickel and Dimed is often wrongly described as an account of my attempts to live on the minimum wage. Far from it; I averaged $7 an hour, which, according to the federal government, is well above the poverty level for a family of one. But I couldn't get by on that, thanks to the high rents even in trailer parks and residential motels, and I never went near pricey housing markets like San Francisco or Seattle. In the Seattle area, a "living wage" (calculated to reflect local housing and other basic costs) is $11.89 an hour for a single person and $25.35 for a family of three - more than three times the current minimum wage.

There is no moral justification for a minimum wage lower than a living wage. And given the experience of the 29 states that have raised their minimum wages, there isn't even an amoral economic justification either.

~link~ (http://www.alternet.org/story/47051/)

The Chamber Of Commerce in their ever-vigilant desire to force workers to accept less and less for the privilege of holding down a job would dispute what Ms Ehrenreich has witnessed. They never met a wage cut they didn't like or a lost benefit they couldn't spin into a better bottom line for business as a whole.

Despite numerous studies that show that more money in the pockets of the least paid workers means more consumer purchases and a greater boost for the local economy, The Chamber holds fast with their beliefs. Hopefully, Congress will push thru a nationwide minimum wage bill and render their arguments (and every other argument against paying our poorest workers more to help their standard of living) moot.



I liked that, I think its sad that people would kick people who are just getting by. You should be happy to have a job, how can any one say people do not have the right to fair wage?

"Poor people are not a dog you kick on the steet, and if you where worth something you would not even kick that dog. If a Man works and is worth his work he must be paid, if a Man is to be able to work he must be strong and well feed. How can you say a man is not worth his work if the work is done? For if you give to others you may get in return, have so many lost the Ideas of help thy bother? Why do we feel that a Mans worth is only how little that man will work for? If a Man comes to you and wishies to buy your Gold and you want its worth and he tell you but your lessor Person for your Gold is worth less, would that be fair?"

It blows my mind how people can treat others like trash, people who may just not have what it takes to get a better job. just because they are not as smart as others who have high paying jobs don't mean they are worth less, nor should they be treated as if they should be lucky to get anything at all. Very sad when People can look at others as worthless and with respect, I hear about the right to life and how we need to protect it. But so many care less about the people who have less, maybe we should do both.

Every Person who works has the Right to a Fair Wage!!!!!!!!!!


Mark


Edit: If a Man is fair and is just, so would be the wage he pays for his workers.

[Mayberry]

OK, I think my job should pay me $30 an hour. This is what I feel is a fair wage for my job. Oh, and I work for the State, so that $30 an hour is being paid by YOU, the tax payer. My work is done every day, so I deserve it, right? And let me justify my $30 an hour. Since burger flippers and toilet scrubbers are worth $7.50, I am worth $30 because I am a plumber/ electrician/ mechanic/ truck driver/ fiberglass technician/ carpenter/ logistics specialist/ purchasing agent/ tour guide/ biologist and lab assistant/ marine sampler/ boat operator/ anything else I haven't thought of. Do I make what I'm worth? No, I make half that. So tell me why a burger flipper is worth half of me? I don't see it. And before you even say it, I WAS a burger flipper (ok, chicken fryer, same difference) in high school for about 2 weeks until I found a real job.

[ECW]

OK, I think my job should pay me $30 an hour. This is what I feel is a fair wage for my job. Oh, and I work for the State, so that $30 an hour is being paid by YOU, the tax payer. My work is done every day, so I deserve it, right? And let me justify my $30 an hour. Since burger flippers and toilet scrubbers are worth $7.50, I am worth $30 because I am a plumber/ electrician/ mechanic/ truck driver/ fiberglass technician/ carpenter/ logistics specialist/ purchasing agent/ tour guide/ biologist and lab assistant/ marine sampler/ boat operator/ anything else I haven't thought of. Do I make what I'm worth? No, I make half that. So tell me why a burger flipper is worth half of me? I don't see it. And before you even say it, I WAS a burger flipper (ok, chicken fryer, same difference) in high school for about 2 weeks until I found a real job.


State jobs are not minimum wage jobs and, thus, the comparison is not valid. Why do you hate working people who are trying to better their lives so much?

[Mayberry]

State jobs are not minimum wage jobs and, thus, the comparison is not valid. The argument was that people aren't paid what they're worth. If a Man works and is worth his work he must be paid Every Person who works has the Right to a Fair Wage!!!!!!!!!! At least that's how I read it. Why do you hate working people who are trying to better their lives so much? I don't. I do dislike people who have no drive to better themselves and get out of their minimum wage jobs. A burger flipper isn't a career, and raising his wages "just because" doesn't provide much incentive for him to strive for more. My wife's friend started out as a burger flipper. She excelled at her job and was promoted to "Team Leader". Then Assistant Manager. She now is a Manager and makes close to $50,000 a year, owns her own home (and a nice one at that), and drives a fairly new Suburban. She started at minimum wage, and climbed the ladder, as you are supposed to do. Oh, and she was a single mother to boot! It is possible, and all it requires is a little drive and effort. Some 30 year old slug who's been at minimum wage his whole life is there for a reason, and doesn't deserve to be rewarded for his laziness. Give him a $2 an hour raise, and he'll continue to be at minimum wage and a parasite on "social services" for the rest of his life. We'll all get the privelege of paying his way. And I don't enjoy paying other people's way. I already lose about 40% of my income to legalized theft, and I'm not willing to part with any more. Any argument you throw at me will never sway my opinion, and I can reasonably assume mine won't sway yours either, so I'm done with this one. I'm tired of pointless arguments.

[Mayberry]

Oh, one more thing. 8 bucks for a fish sandwich is highway robbery! I can get a nice grilled mahi mahi sammich in Port Aransas for 5 bucks, with drink and fries. Oh, that's right. Minimum wage in Texas is still $5.15.

[MAP2010.wireless]

Oh, one more thing. 8 bucks for a fish sandwich is highway robbery! I can get a nice grilled mahi mahi sammich in Port Aransas for 5 bucks, with drink and fries. Oh, that's right. Minimum wage in Texas is still $5.15.


Ok.... First State Workers get paid well and they have great retirements even if they are not worth it. And if you are making $30 an hr then you have pay that $7 or $8, people do not choice to grow up poor and then end up just making the payments every month.

What I was saying is you can't just treat some one like trash and pay them lower then living wage, they are Human and just like you have a right to live and make a living even if they are not doing as well as you.
Should Bill Gates come to you and say your worthless you can even Buy half what I can so you just do try, would he be right too think you where? No, you can't look at some one who is doing their best and say your not trying. I come from a very poor family so I know how hard it is to get out of that and get where you can do good.

And that min wage person is worth the same as you or I, no more or no less. You know about a man from how he treats others.


Edit: tired

[Mayberry]

Ok.... First State Workers get paid well and they have great retirements If you think $24k a year is well paid...... And the "great retirement" is 60% of your highest 3 years, and it costs me $160 a month. people do not choice to grow up poor No, but you do choose to stay poor. Poor people can go to college for free, or nearly so. And with rent subsidies and food stamps, some "poor folk" live better than I do. Just ask the woman who buys her groceries (steak, shrimp, all name brand stuff) in her Lone Star card and drives off in her Escalade. I've reported her to the welfare people, and I still see her almost every month. Downright criminal. you have a right to live and make a living Yes, you do have a right to MAKE a living. You are not ENTITLED to one.

[MAP2010.wireless]

Ok.... First State Workers get paid well and they have great retirements If you think $24k a year is well paid...... And the "great retirement" is 60% of your highest 3 years, and it costs me $160 a month. people do not choice to grow up poor No, but you do choose to stay poor. Poor people can go to college for free, or nearly so. And with rent subsidies and food stamps, some "poor folk" live better than I do. Just ask the woman who buys her groceries (steak, shrimp, all name brand stuff) in her Lone Star card and drives off in her Escalade. I've reported her to the welfare people, and I still see her almost every month. Downright criminal. you have a right to live and make a living Yes, you do have a right to MAKE a living. You are not ENTITLED to one.


If you work for the State and only make $24k a year thats $12.50, you must have not been with the State very long. I know a Front Desk Man who works for the State of TexasÂ*Â*TxDOT makes $20.00 an hr, plus anther friend of mine makes more after he retired contracting to them plus his retirement he is set.

And if you think paying fair wages are bad, then I say thank God for welfare. If it was up too you they would all die and be homeless.

Mark

[Mayberry]

I say thank God for welfare. If it was up too you they would all die and be homeless.
I say you love welfare so much, you pay for it. And if it was up to me, yes they would all die and be homeless if they choose not to pull their weight. Harsh? Maybe. But I don't really care. I have a wife and 2 kids, and they and the rest of my family are the only ones I care about. The rest are on their own. I'm tired of having to do without so some fat slob can eat ribeyes on my nickle. Call me callous, uncaring, or any other adjectives you can come up with, because it really doesn't bother me. You should stand or fall on your own merits. Period. If life dealt you a crappy hand, sorry, but those are the cards you were dealt and you have to live with it. Not my responsibility. Set up your charities, etc., but stop stealing my money to redistribute to whoever you feel like. The government is not your nanny, nor should it be, and government has no right to take my money and give it away.

[AlonzoMourning23]

Mayberry made me think of something. Why am I paying subsidies so the government can inspect his beef and chicken? Or give subsidies to the farms supplying them? The government has no right to take my money for practices that I find barbaric.

[MAP2010.wireless]

I say thank God for welfare. If it was up too you they would all die and be homeless.
I say you love welfare so much, you pay for it. And if it was up to me, yes they would all die and be homeless if they choose not to pull their weight. Harsh? Maybe. But I don't really care. I have a wife and 2 kids, and they and the rest of my family are the only ones I care about. The rest are on their own. I'm tired of having to do without so some fat slob can eat ribeyes on my nickle. Call me callous, uncaring, or any other adjectives you can come up with, because it really doesn't bother me. You should stand or fall on your own merits. Period. If life dealt you a crappy hand, sorry, but those are the cards you were dealt and you have to live with it. Not my responsibility. Set up your charities, etc., but stop stealing my money to redistribute to whoever you feel like. The government is not your nanny, nor should it be, and government has no right to take my money and give it away.


We all pay for Welfare!!!! And its because they don't make good money. Sorry but you should learn to be kind and understand not every one can do as good as you.

Mark

[MAP2010.wireless]

Look its called being caring, Reps want to be the work for your own dollor and stay away from mine. We must work to fix this problem, if all people can do is say let them swim or die its a weak plan for a better tomorrow. If you have learned how to do better then you should be willing to show others, if you get a head and do not give nothing back.
Don't cry if you have no one helping if you fall.

Growth brings Growth.


http://www.map2010.com/images/1457526.gif

[ECW]

Look its called being caring, Reps want to be the work for your own dollor and stay away from mine. We must work to fix this problem, if all people can do is say let them swim or die its a weak plan for a better tomorrow. If you have learned how to do better then you should be willing to show others, if you get a head and do not give nothing back.
Don't cry if you have no one helping if you fall.

Growth brings Growth.


http://www.map2010.com/images/1457526.gif


Finally! A Republican on this board that believes in the Christian Charity of their faith and not the Social Darwinism of the neocons. By George, I think you got it, Mark.

[MAP2010.wireless]

Look its called being caring, Reps want to be the work for your own dollor and stay away from mine. We must work to fix this problem, if all people can do is say let them swim or die its a weak plan for a better tomorrow. If you have learned how to do better then you should be willing to show others, if you get a head and do not give nothing back.
Don't cry if you have no one helping if you fall.

Growth brings Growth.


http://www.map2010.com/images/1457526.gif


Finally! A Republican on this board that believes in the Christian Charity of their faith and not the Social Darwinism of the neocons. By George, I think you got it, Mark.


Thats one of the Big Christian view points, but sad to say it takes the back seat when this is talked about. Rep who are Christians should know there has to be something to fix the problem not just let them die, But I thank you for your kind words.

Mark Pendergraft

[firefox]

If it's voluntary, do it. If not, don't. Libertarian social welfare is that easy! :D It's all about maximizing opportunity and minimizing dependency, especially dependence on the men with guns (aka government)!

If you're religious, think about this core issue: What would Jesus do? How does the Golden Rule apply in each situation?

[MAP2010.wireless]

If it's voluntary, do it. If not, don't. Libertarian social welfare is that easy! :D It's all about maximizing opportunity and minimizing dependency, especially dependence on the men with guns (aka government)!

If you're religious, think about this core issue: What would Jesus do? How does the Golden Rule apply in each situation?


The point really is this, there is something that needs to be done and we can't just say well them sink or swim. It needs to be fixed and I feel I know a way.

[MingFromMongo]

Finally! A Republican on this board that believes in the Christian Charity of their faith and not the Social Darwinism of the neocons. By George, I think you got it, Mark.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You've nailed it.Â*Â*Christian Charity.Â*Â*Christians giving to charity to their fellow man.Â*Â*Not government forcing individuals to pave the way for those that may or may not be totally disinclined to making their own way.Â*Â*If the giving were left to those closest to the individual situations, the benefits of helping out others would not only be more efficient, it would also be more effective.Â*Â*The federal government has been nothing but an albatross on the backs of those who are really in the business of helping out.Â*Â*

[firefox]

I agree. Americans have been proven in studies to be the most giving people as a group in the world. Just imagine what we can do with all that extra money and time when we get it back from the cold dead hands of the state? :)

[Guitarmitch]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0210biz-teenwork0210.html

No suprises here. Expect to see similar stories across the nation.