Mandatory military service

[micfranklin]

I personally believe that a truly free society wouldn't force citizens into military service, but I had to post this just to see where everyone else stands. Any thoughts?

[Viper2]

Personally, I feel everyone male and female should be inducted into the military out of high school. At the end of the two years, those who wish to stay in stay in - and those who wish to be discharged (not everyone is suited for military life), are and given money for college if they qualify.

Considering what is going on in society concerning our youth, the military would be a personally beneficial experience in more ways then one - and at the same time those who left would have a much better understanding of military operations, and therefore would be able to analyze things with knowledge and experience instead of relying on the liberal left-wing mass media to do their thinking for them.

[NortheastCynic]

Well, I've still yet to here a compelling case against my assertion that mandatory military service is invoulentary servitude and therefor illegal. Unless a people's freedoms are being immediately threatened [say, the USSR invaded us], there is no legitimate case for mandatory military service, IMO. That isn't to say that the military wouldn't be good for some kids, but it is not the government's place to force people to do something that may or may not be "good for them".

-NC

[Viper2]

Well, I've still yet to here a compelling case against my assertion that mandatory military service is invoulentary servitude and therefor illegal.Â*Â*Unless a people's freedoms are being immediately threatened [say, the USSR invaded us], there is no legitimate case for mandatory military service, IMO.Â*Â*That isn't to say that the military wouldn't be good for some kids, but it is not the government's place to force people to do something that may or may not be "good for them".

-NC


You make some good points, however, I'm biased.

Consider that at present 98% of our Armed Forces are comprised of "Volunteers" - that should say something about the military. Also, consider that the "draft" was suspended - now there you had no choice.

Now, I would conclude that you have no military experience - right.

So, unless you have some sort of training that I am not aware of, how would you defend yourself, family, loved ones and neighbors if your community was suddenly attacked by terrorists going house to house ??

This is not meant to demean or insult you - I am only attempting to make a point as you did raise the point of "invasion"

Consider the time it takes to recruit, and train men and women who volunteer - now how much time do you think there is if we were to be invaded ???

Now, if the general population had gone through at least two years of military training, and many decided not to stay in, consider their increased abilities as opposed to no service at all. There is a difference in the overall mindset and thinking between the military and civilians.

Not that it matters at this point in time, however, I am still able to go into an ordinary everyday kitchen and make explosives - consider if we were invaded, I and all those Veterans who were trained would be able to mount a resistance force and do heavy damage to the enemy / invader, and have a better chance of survival to continue operations as opposed to untrained civilians.

If I'm not mistaken Israel has manditory service for men and women, and I don't see any uprisings from the people.

Now here are a few things that I see, just off the top of my head:

Benefits of Military Service:

The knowledge that you are serving your country and giving something of value back

The knowledge that you are an important part of defending our country, the Constitution, Bill of Rights, our way of life, along with the freedoms and rights so many take for granted.

Learn to handle instead of react to various levels of authority over you

Learn how to interact with peers, superiors and subordinates in an ordered society

Learn how to handle and deal with stress in a myriad of situations

Increase feelings and levels of self respect

Increase feelings and levels of self worth and pride

Knowledge that your contribution is important and worth something

Learn how to defend yourself and others

Become more focused in what you do

Become more orderly in your affairs

Become organized and deliberate in your actions

Become more analytical of your actions and learn periodic self-evaluation toward improvement

Learn accountability and responsibility

Learn the real meaning of teamwork and accomplishing goals and objectives as a part of the team

Establish a comradery resulting in long lasting ties and friendships

Learn skills and an occupation with advancement depending upon your ability

[bobbylien]

Its a good idea but I don't like the idea of intense nationalism being beaten into everyones heads.

[NortheastCynic]

First things first Viper, thank you for your service, and your selflessness.Â*Â*Now, on to why I disagree with you:D.

Now, I would conclude that you have no military experience - right.

So, unless you have some sort of training that I am not aware of, how would you defend yourself, family, loved ones and neighbors if your community was suddenly attacked by terrorists going house to house ??

This is not meant to demean or insult you - I am only attempting to make a point as you did raise the point of "invasion"No offense taken at all.Â*Â*However, there is a basic problem with this argument.Â*Â*I do not have military training, that is very true, but that does not make me [or anyone like me] defenseless.Â*Â*Just as a personal example, I do not have military training but have extensive training in several martial arts.Â*Â*My point that I'm trying to make is that the military does not hold a monopoly on defense training.Â*Â*"But not everyone takes advantage of non-military training" you might be saying...True, and that brings us to the legal/ethical argument.Â*Â*Does the gov't have the authority to force people to learn how to defend themselves and the country.Â*Â*Constitutionally, I see such a practice as indefensable unless the freedoms of the people of this country are under attack.Â*Â*If intelligence indicated that America was going to be invaded or go to war with a major power, then I am all for a draft.Â*Â*Beyond that, however, it is not the government's place to force military training on its citizens.

Consider the time it takes to recruit, and train men and women who volunteer - now how much time do you think there is if we were to be invaded ??? That assumes that we would start a draft the day we were invaded...I doubt that would be the case.

As for your list of positives regarding military service, I am in no place to dispute any of them but again pose the question "is it the government's place to force people to do something that's good for them?"

-NC

[slappy]

I teach teenagers for a living, so maybe I'm biased, but I'm marginally in favour of some form of mandatory national service. I don't think it should have to be military service, but I definitely think there's much to be gained, in the long run, by creating a culture of public service, discipline and cooperation among our youth.

[I apologize in advance if this is deemed a digression from the primary topic of mandatory military service. If need be, I'll C&P these comments to a new thread elsewhere.]

Think about the areas of public service where young people of various abilities and aptitudes are sorely needed. Younger teenagers need role models and mentors, the elderly need all manner of assistance, inner city neighborhoods need too many forms of positive youthful energy to mention. Disaster areas always need more sets of hands, and certainly the military route may be the ideal form of service for many others who would not choose it freely but might prefer it to running youth drop in centres or working with shut-ins.

I don't see this as anything like slavery. First, everyone would be treated equally: nobody gets a deferment or exemption. Second, there's no reason that some form of compensation, montary or otherwise, could not be offered in exchange for service. Third, the basic premiss of this program is the enrichment of all by all, not the enrichment of some at the expense of others. Fourth, such an experience would be designed to offer experiences to each young person that somehow coincide with her interests and abilities. At the very least, it is a character building experience which should be looked back upon as a stage in one's education and development toward mature citizenship.

I like it. Let's do it. :)

[wonder cow]

Personally, I feel everyone male and female should be inducted into the military out of high school.

Nope.

The less mandatory crap we have, the better.

, how would you defend yourself, family, loved ones and neighbors if your community was suddenly attacked by terrorists going house to house ??

They wouldn't stand a chance.

[NortheastCynic]

I don't see this as anything like slavery. First, everyone would be treated equally: nobody gets a deferment or exemption. Second, there's no reason that some form of compensation, montary or otherwise, could not be offered in exchange for service. Third, the basic premiss of this program is the enrichment of all by all, not the enrichment of some at the expense of others. Fourth, such an experience would be designed to offer experiences to each young person that somehow coincide with her interests and abilities. At the very least, it is a character building experience which should be looked back upon as a stage in one's education and development toward mature citizenship.I used the term "involuntary servitude" for a reason...That's exactly what it would be, servitude that is involuntary. Again, Slappy, I don't necessarily disagree with your premise that service would be good, but it is not the goverment's job to force things upon us simply because they would be good.

-NC

[Viper2]

Its a good idea but I don't like the idea of intense nationalism being beaten into everyones heads.


IMHO, it's not intense "nationalism" as you put it - it's more like making people aware of what they have, what has been provided through the sacrifices of millions of people who have lived and died throughout our history, and the role our military has played in that rich history from the very beginning.

[wonder cow]

Mommy government is fine with communism or other collectivist ideologies, but this 'cher is 'Merica.

*turns head but keeps eyes wide and still focused on Slappy, spits tobacco*

[micfranklin]

Personally, I feel everyone male and female should be inducted into the military out of high school. At the end of the two years, those who wish to stay in stay in - and those who wish to be discharged (not everyone is suited for military life), are and given money for college if they qualify.

Considering what is going on in society concerning our youth, the military would be a personally beneficial experience in more ways then one - and at the same time those who left would have a much better understanding of military operations, and therefore would be able to analyze things with knowledge and experience instead of relying on the liberal left-wing mass media to do their thinking for them.


So you adovcate forcing people to do something once high school is over, even if they don't want to do it?

[Elrathin]

I voted yes, but I do so with a caveat. I don't think that people should have to serve necessarily in the military, but I do think they should serve in the public interest, such as police officer, fire department, etc.

I liked very much how South Korea does it. Every male must serve 2 years in the public interest.

[micfranklin]

I said no simply because if they don't wanna go, then they don't wanna go, its as simple as that. If they want to do it, then let it be on their own will.

[Elrathin]

I said no simply because if they don't wanna go, then they don't wanna go, its as simple as that. If they want to do it, then let it be on their own will.


That's fair and understandable. I don't agree with it, but that's ok :)

[slappy]

I used the term "involuntary servitude" for a reason...That's exactly what it would be, servitude that is involuntary.
I guess I assumed you meant slavery because I don't see anything obvious wrong with involuntary servitude per se when we're talking about young people. We already give our youth very limited options for their own good, and for the long term benefit of our society. Public school is mandatory, obeying their parents is mandatory...why not simply extend that principle a couple more years if the aggregate benefit is likely to be worth the investment?

Again, Slappy, I don't necessarily disagree with your premise that service would be good, but it is not the goverment's job to force things upon us simply because they would be good.
Sometimes, sometimes not. Again, I'm talking about a certain age group here, but, more generally, I'd point out that there are various ways in which the government forces us to behave in certain ways when it is deemed sufficiently important that we do so.

[NortheastCynic]

I guess I assumed you meant slavery because I don't see anything obvious wrong with involuntary servitude per se when we're talking about young people. We already give our youth very limited options for their own good, and for the long term benefit of our society. Public school is mandatory, obeying their parents is mandatory...why not simply extend that principle a couple more years if the aggregate benefit is likely to be worth the investment?Involuntary servitude is illegal per the Constitution. In addition, I don't believe that public school should be mandatory and obeying your parents is not something that the gov't forces you to do.

Sometimes, sometimes not. Again, I'm talking about a certain age group here, but, more generally, I'd point out that there are various ways in which the government forces us to behave in certain ways when it is deemed sufficiently important that we do so.
There are various ways in which the gov't forces us to do something because it's good for us...And that's wrong...that's my point.

-NC

[slappy]

Involuntary servitude is illegal per the Constitution.
Yet, the United States maintained a military draft for years. If the value to the national interest were deemed sufficiently high, I suspect you could pull it off.

There are various ways in which the gov't forces us to do something because it's good for us...And that's wrong...that's my point.
I'm not a strict libertarian about these things, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that. (Unless you want to get into the moral philosophy of the matter...but that would best be undertaken in another thread, maybe another subforum?)

[NortheastCynic]

Yet, the United States maintained a military draft for years. If the value to the national interest were deemed sufficiently high, I suspect you could pull it off.Oh, I'm sure. The Federal Government has gotten away with and continues to get away with law breaking all of the time:)

I'm not a strict libertarian about these things, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that. (Unless you want to get into the moral philosophy of the matter...but that would best be undertaken in another thread, maybe another subforum?) Fair enough, I respect your point of view, but as you put it, we have a philosophical contention here.

-NC

[slappy]

Agreed.

Incidentally, has there ever been a Philosophy or Legal Theory forum here for issues of rights and morals that sometimes get raised in these policy discussions?

[NortheastCynic]

Decent question, I'm not sure, I'd ask Labrocca.

-NC

[Stoner]

Men should absolutely be required to serve in our armed forces for at least 2 years.

[underdawg]

I don't think that the military should be manditory, but I think that if you do serve all of your college education should be paid for and not just part of it. Also instead of going into the armed services right after high school, I personally felt that I had an advantage by entering the army at the age of 26 instead of 18 or 19.

[micfranklin]

Another reason that I say no is because if you don't then it gives the illusion that you are a bad person, or worse, a bad American that is traitorous.

[Cobra]

No way, worst idea ever.

[Viper2]

NortheastCynic:
First things first Viper, thank you for your service, and your selflessness. Now, on to why I disagree with you .

You are very welcome – it was an honor and privilege to serve my Beloved Country.

And it is your right to disagree - Lock & Load :D:D:D

No offense taken at all. However, there is a basic problem with this argument. I do not have military training, that is very true, but that does not make me [or anyone like me] defenseless. Just as a personal example, I do not have military training but have extensive training in several martial arts. My point that I'm trying to make is that the military does not hold a monopoly on defense training. "But not everyone takes advantage of non-military training" you might be saying...True, and that brings us to the legal/ethical argument. Does the gov't have the authority to force people to learn how to defend themselves and the country. Constitutionally, I see such a practice as indefensable unless the freedoms of the people of this country are under attack. If intelligence indicated that America was going to be invaded or go to war with a major power, then I am all for a draft. Beyond that, however, it is not the government's place to force military training on its citizens.

Your example is excellent and well said.

Now there are many who are trained in various Martial Arts, my training resulted in a black-belt combat Karate. Thus, we have any number of “civilians� who have some degree of training in self-defense. That at least affords them the opportunity for defensive and/or offensive action but in an up front and personal face to face confrontation only.

And yes there are countless civilians who own weapons of all sorts and are experienced in their use.

That said, it now begs the question – are you prepared to take the life of another human being without question and/or hesitation ??? Can you look that person straight in the eye and take their life either by hand, knife or gun ??

I’m not attempting to get gory or insanely cruel here – just presenting the possibilities, in light of the possible “terrorist� attacks that will some day happen right here in the USA.

That assumes that we would start a draft the day we were invaded...I doubt that would be the case.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, that is the crux of the point I am attempting to make. Thus, if there were millions of civilians who already had military training, you now have a defense force that could be mustered and equipped in short order. Additionally, at least the men and women would because of their prior training have a chance of survival and could make the difference between to victory or defeat.

As for your list of positives regarding military service, I am in no place to dispute any of them but again pose the question "is it the government's place to force people to do something that's good for them?"

I understand, however, these can be applied to civilian life as well. It's just that the military speed up the learning process.

Consider that those who decided not to stay in the military received their Honorable Discharge and returned to civilian life – some went on to college and others went directly into the work environment – now, please review the points I listed and see that all these positive attributes will enable and empower these men and women to if they put forth the effort to excel in whatever they choose to do.

Therefore, it is a win win situation for these young adults – and in many cases, their two years in the military will prevent them from going astray in many ways as we see so many doing today – the newspapers and broadcasts are full of reports every day.

[Viper2]

slappy:
I teach teenagers for a living, so maybe I'm biased, but I'm marginally in favour of some form of mandatory national service. I don't think it should have to be military service, but I definitely think there's much to be gained, in the long run, by creating a culture of public service, discipline and cooperation among our youth.

[I apologize in advance if this is deemed a digression from the primary topic of mandatory military service. If need be, I'll C&P these comments to a new thread elsewhere.]

Think about the areas of public service where young people of various abilities and aptitudes are sorely needed. Younger teenagers need role models and mentors, the elderly need all manner of assistance, inner city neighborhoods need too many forms of positive youthful energy to mention. Disaster areas always need more sets of hands, and certainly the military route may be the ideal form of service for many others who would not choose it freely but might prefer it to running youth drop in centres or working with shut-ins.

You make valid points that deserve consideration. Consider that there would be quite a number of males and females graduating from high-school who would not be able to pass a military physical for one reason or another – so in this instance, they would be perfect for placement in the areas you mentioned as well as many others. But for those physically fit, I still hold to a two year stint in the military – see my response to NortheastCynic above.

[Viper2]

wonder cow:
Nope.

The less mandatory crap we have, the better.

Why pray-tell do you consider military service “crap� ?????

They wouldn't stand a chance.

Exactly the reason for military training

[Viper2]

micfranklin:
So you adovcate forcing people to do something once high school is over, even if they don't want to do it?

A question to answer yours – we did have a military draft at one time, and there were those who didn’t want to go and did – and many of those stayed in. So, what was it that changed their minds from no way to yes I’ll stay ?????

Additionally, this can be properly explained to students at the beginning of their senior year by military personnel – and questions can be asked and answered. This way, it would be more of a cooperative agreement as opposed to you’re being forced.

[Viper2]

slappy:
Incidentally, has there ever been a Philosophy or Legal Theory forum here for issues of rights and morals that sometimes get raised in these policy discussions?

Perhaps one or both of these two forums would be what you’re looking for:

The Law or Civil Rights

[Viper2]

Stoner:
Men should absolutely be required to serve in our armed forces for at least 2 years.

I agree. However, nowadays, women have been proving their capabilities and worth more than ever – and there are quite a lot of women in all branches of the military – many in combat situations.

[Viper2]

underdawg:
I don't think that the military should be manditory, but I think that if you do serve all of your college education should be paid for and not just part of it. Also instead of going into the armed services right after high school, I personally felt that I had an advantage by entering the army at the age of 26 instead of 18 or 19.


Excellent point – but consider that you already had your head screwed on right & tight. Many of our youngsters don’t and to some degree or another are aimless and without discipline. So, at that point the military would be beneficial in more ways then one.

Thank you very much for your service - I appreciate it.

What years were you in – and where did you serve ???

[firefox]

Point of information: Are any of the mandatory service supporters 25 years of age or under?

[wonder cow]

Why pray-tell do you consider military service "crap" ?????

HaHa. Nice try.

I was referring to "things" that are mandatory. Not military training, which if it was mandatory, I would consider the fact that it is mandatory to be crap, not the training itself.

Exactly the reason for military training

I never had military training. But I'm perfectly capable of defending my home and family.

[Cobra]

Point of information: Are any of the mandatory service supporters 25 years of age or under?
I wonder that too, it's okay when your ass isn't at risk. Over 18 citizens have just as much rights as others and should not be forced into something like this against their will.

[Elrathin]

Point of information: Are any of the mandatory service supporters 25 years of age or under?


I was a supporter of it before I joined the military when I was 19. As I said though, I am not a supporter of just the choice of military service but public service as well for at least two years for people.

[Viper2]

Why pray-tell do you consider military service "crap" ?????

HaHa. Nice try.

I was referring to "things" that are mandatory. Not military training, which if it was mandatory, I would consider the fact that it is mandatory to be crap, not the training itself.

Exactly the reason for military training

I never had military training. But I'm perfectly capable of defending my home and family.


Shucks, I thought I'd get that by you :cool:

Okay, I can go along with that - however, you must admit that military training would give you an edge that you presently do not have.

[Viper2]

Point of information: Are any of the mandatory service supporters 25 years of age or under?
I wonder that too, it's okay when your ass isn't at risk. Over 18 citizens have just as much rights as others and should not be forced into something like this against their will.


Point of info - I was 17 when I enlisted and 19 when I volunteered for combat training and turned 20 the month I went into combat.

Question - what is so wrong with a person receiving two years of military training ???

[Viper2]

Point of information: Are any of the mandatory service supporters 25 years of age or under?


I was a supporter of it before I joined the military when I was 19.Â*Â*As I said though, I am not a supporter of just the choice of military service but public service as well for at least two years for people.


Understandable, and like I mentioned, not every male or female would pass the military physical exam, so they could be assigned any number of other tasks that would benefit not only themselves but America as well.

[micfranklin]

micfranklin:
So you adovcate forcing people to do something once high school is over, even if they don't want to do it?

A question to answer yours – we did have a military draft at one time, and there were those who didn’t want to go and did – and many of those stayed in. So, what was it that changed their minds from no way to yes I’ll stay ?????

Additionally, this can be properly explained to students at the beginning of their senior year by military personnel – and questions can be asked and answered. This way, it would be more of a cooperative agreement as opposed to you’re being forced.


I wasn't around during the Vietnam draft (if that's what you're referring to) but I bet the reason people changed their minds was because they felt they were in immediate danger or there was just too much tension in America. Some other people wouldn't go because, well, the military just isn't for everyone.

I know for a fact that I'd stay in America, should there be another draft.

[Viper2]

micfranklin:
I wasn't around during the Vietnam draft (if that's what you're referring to) but I bet the reason people changed their minds was because they felt they were in immediate danger or there was just too much tension in America. Some other people wouldn't go because, well, the military just isn't for everyone.

First, you're right, military life isn't for everyone.

Many fellow Nam Vets I've spoken with who stayed in because they liked military life, some because they were tired of hearing about and seeing the liberal, panty-waisted morality in civilian life. A couple said this isn't the America I left when I went to Nam. None that I have spoken to ever felt they were in danger.

I know for a fact that I'd stay in America, should there be another draft.

How so ??

[Thirdparty]

I tend to agree with the others and Viper that some form of service should be mandatory. I think it is in Israel.

For those who object to the military, such as Quakers, et. al, I think the idea of a national service corps is awesome.

I know there will be those who say anything is forced is wrong, but it seems to me if you made it optional from ages say, 17-30, and made it a one year minimum commmitment, not too many could object to that.

Of course, it raises issues, such as who is exempt, for what reasons, etc/

[Viper2]

I tend to agree with the others and Viper that some form of service should be mandatory. I think it is in Israel.

For those who object to the military, such as Quakers, et. al, I think the idea of a national service corps is awesome.

I know there will be those who say anything is forced is wrong, but it seems to me if you made it optional from ages say, 17-30, and made it a one year minimum commmitment, not too many could object to that.

Of course, it raises issues, such as who is exempt, for what reasons, etc/


Excellent points.

It's nice when we who have opposing views and opinions can debate in a rational manner and actually come up with a reasonable and viable result and solution.

[micfranklin]

micfranklin:
I wasn't around during the Vietnam draft (if that's what you're referring to) but I bet the reason people changed their minds was because they felt they were in immediate danger or there was just too much tension in America. Some other people wouldn't go because, well, the military just isn't for everyone.

First, you're right, military life isn't for everyone.

Many fellow Nam Vets I've spoken with who stayed in because they liked military life, some because they were tired of hearing about and seeing the liberal, panty-waisted morality in civilian life. A couple said this isn't the America I left when I went to Nam. None that I have spoken to ever felt they were in danger.

I know for a fact that I'd stay in America, should there be another draft.

How so ??


I wouldn't flee the country nor go into the military. I'd just stay put: it's not right for the government to force you into service and maybe shooting people who are no threat to you.

[slappy]

I don't think it's terribly unfair to require service of 18 year olds that we would not require of 30 or 50 year olds (and yes, I'm closer to 50 than 18 :(). Remember that, once instituted, all citizens would have to serve, so...just as we all had to wait to be a certain age to drive or just as we all had to attend public school...before too long everyone will have had to do their public service.

If that just won't wash, then I'd also go along with every able-bodied person over 20 being required to contribute two years as well, although you'd definitely have to let them break it up into weekends and other time off they might arrange, over a much longer period of time.

It's important to remember, however, the rationale behind such service requirements. If it's being viewed primarily as an extension of mandatory public education and training, there seems little reason to extend the requirement to people who are long out of school and already involved in careers. After all, if it were ever mandated that high school be extended to "Grade 13", you wouldn't expect all the bankers and cops and business owners in the country to drop everything and go back to high school. :)

[Labrocca]

Well, I've still yet to here a compelling case against my assertion that mandatory military service is invoulentary servitude and therefor illegal.Â*Â*Unless a people's freedoms are being immediately threatened [say, the USSR invaded us], there is no legitimate case for mandatory military service, IMO.Â*Â*That isn't to say that the military wouldn't be good for some kids, but it is not the government's place to force people to do something that may or may not be "good for them".

-NC


Is public education homework involuntary servitude? As far as I know kids don't get paid for homework while the military does. Kids are FORCED to attend school.

And just because a person must join the military doesn't mean they have to pick up a weapon. I would assume if military service did become mandatory we would have positions for those with moral objection to violence.

I am all for mandatory military service and would consider it part of a persons education. Some parents don't do enough and imho the military would fix that. It should be mandatory for anyone not attending college at the very least.

[NortheastCynic]

Is public education homework involuntary servitude? As far as I know kids don't get paid for homework while the military does. Kids are FORCED to attend school.You aren't imprisoned for not doing homework and are free not to do it, if that is your choice and your parents allow you to. Kids ARE forced to attend school, I don't believe that that should be the case...And I hate to bring that pesky Constitution thing back into this but, uh, the goverment doesn't have any Constitutional authority to force children to go to school either.

And just because a person must join the military doesn't mean they have to pick up a weapon. I would assume if military service did become mandatory we would have positions for those with moral objection to violence.This wouldn't make it any less involuntary or any less servitude-y.

I am all for mandatory military service and would consider it part of a persons education. Some parents don't do enough and imho the military would fix that. It should be mandatory for anyone not attending college at the very least. Two problems with that. One, it isn't the Federal Government's job to make up for shortcomings of parents. Two, if everyone without a college education went into any kind of service, who would do the jobs that are traditionally filled with uneducated people; the drain on the economy would be disasterous.

-NC

[Viper2]

micfranklin :
I wouldn't flee the country nor go into the military. I'd just stay put: it's not right for the government to force you into service and maybe shooting people who are no threat to you.

Okay, at leasy you're honest.

Now consider that it is part of the Constitution of the United States - do you agree with the Constitution or not ???

[Viper2]

slappy:
I don't think it's terribly unfair to require service of 18 year olds that we would not require of 30 or 50 year olds (and yes, I'm closer to 50 than 18 ). Remember that, once instituted, all citizens would have to serve, so...just as we all had to wait to be a certain age to drive or just as we all had to attend public school...before too long everyone will have had to do their public service.

You know, there's something I haven't seen throughout this entire thread besides what I listed:

Sacrifice[size=x-large]

All I hear is:
1 - It isn't fair
2 - It's not right
3 - It's indentured slavery
4 - Etc.

Our country was founded on the sacrifice of the lives and fortunes of our founding fathers, and countless millions who came here, worked their butts off, and was bought and paid for by the sacrifice and blood of countless thousands of those who served in the military and their families.

Damn it, that should count for something. The problem with our society today is there are too many who just want to enjoy and live in the freedom we have, and demand that everything is their "right" to have.

That is entirely wrong from the word go.

[Viper2]

Labrocca:
Is public education homework involuntary servitude? As far as I know kids don't get paid for homework while the military does. Kids are FORCED to attend school.

And just because a person must join the military doesn't mean they have to pick up a weapon. I would assume if military service did become mandatory we would have positions for those with moral objection to violence.

I am all for mandatory military service and would consider it part of a persons education. Some parents don't do enough and imho the military would fix that. It should be mandatory for anyone not attending college at the very least.

I agree 101% - thank you.

There are many occupations within the military that does not require a combat assignment, even in the Army and Marine Corps. However, within these two branches of the military, weapons training is required even if you are a cook or supply clerk.

[micfranklin]

micfranklin :
I wouldn't flee the country nor go into the military. I'd just stay put: it's not right for the government to force you into service and maybe shooting people who are no threat to you.

Okay, at leasy you're honest.

Now consider that it is part of the Constitution of the United States - do you agree with the Constitution or not ???


The majority of laws in the Constitution I can agree with, but this part I seriously don't. However, no one can impose the morals of serving the country on you, but you.

[Cobra]

Question - what is so wrong with a person receiving two years of military training ???
Nothing, being forced into that training is. Would I leave the country, maybe? I'll volunteer to serve my country but I won’t be force too. I'd be volunteering because I love the freedom this country offers. If that was taken away from me because I'm a certain age I would no longer feel free or wish to serve that country.

[potter]

I personally believe that a truly free society wouldn't force citizens into military service, but I had to post this just to see where everyone else stands. Any thoughts?


Considering that forced conscription is the opposite of freedom I agree. I've never served, but I understand the first thing they do in the military is take away your sense of self identity, and teach you to not make independent descisions or think for yourself. Basically they turn you into an unquestioning yes men. Good for politicians who want to rule without critical judgement, bad for the people.

[Stoner]

the first thing they do in the military is take away your sense of self identity, and teach you to not make independent descisions or think for yourself.Â*Â*Basically they turn you into an unquestioning yes men.Â*Â*

I have no clue where on God's green earth you pulled that out of (actually I do have an idea) but it is dead wrong.

I was in the USMC for 10 years. The only thing we were taught in regards to personality is to think for your self. Learn how to make those tough, in-the-field decisions that could save the lives of many men and to allow you to create your own personal identity and become unique.

Perhaps you should quit stating things you hear from friends as fact and stick to things you know.

And while you're at it have some fucking respect for my fellow soldiers and never potray them as weak, mindless, incapable robots again.

Dismissed.

[potter]

Gee stoner...didn't mean to push yer button like that.

TBH, my dad who served in Korea and worked at the pentagon all his life is the one who told me that. I also know some kids who have gone through basic the past few years who seem to lack direction or the ability to move forward with their lives. I also have many guard friends with issues...they seem to rely a lot on mood altering drugs to stay level....I probably just haven't been exposed to the right examples.

Could just be the local water.....

[Jaaaman]

[Considering that forced conscription is the opposite of freedom I agree. I've never served, but I understand the first thing they do in the military is take away your sense of self identity, and teach you to not make independent descisions or think for yourself.Â*Â*Basically they turn you into an unquestioning yes men.Â*Â*Good for politicians who want to rule without critical judgement, bad for the people.

I disagree with much of that statement. Basic training in the army helped give me confidence to face the world around me, gave me leadership skills, helped me to get into good shape and gave me real goals to go after. I was not an 'unquestioning yes man'. We were taught to be able to think on our own as well.

[micfranklin]

I personally believe that a truly free society wouldn't force citizens into military service, but I had to post this just to see where everyone else stands. Any thoughts?


Considering that forced conscription is the opposite of freedom I agree. I've never served, but I understand the first thing they do in the military is take away your sense of self identity, and teach you to not make independent descisions or think for yourself.Â*Â*Basically they turn you into an unquestioning yes men.Â*Â*Good for politicians who want to rule without critical judgement, bad for the people.


That's another reason for me not to join: I like having independent thoughts, and making one into an unquestioning person means they can make you do things normal people wouldn't dream of doing.

[Professor]

I don't think military service should be required but some sort of service to society should. Anything from X number of hours in a soup kitchen, to military to whatever. I do think it would help bring appriciation for the things people have and stop the sweet 16 complex (if you're confused, go into off topic and look at the thread "why MTV is crap").

I've done some volenteer work, which has made me feel grateful but the real thing that made me feel lucky was almost dying. After that and getting better, everything is easy and you know how lucky you are. Short of injecting every 18 year old with deadly diseases, I think social service is best.

[Labrocca]

There is nothing in the constitution about paying federal income tax too but you all pay it.

It was the 16th amendment that opened that door up to hell.

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Why not have a new amendment for mandatory military service?

[NortheastCynic]

Well, at least we can agree that military conscription as of right now is unConstitutional. So why don't we amend the Constitution? Because it is not the place of the gov't to force conscription in a circumstance in which our nation's territorial integrity and freedoms are being attacked.

-NC

[Viper2]

micfranklin :
I wouldn't flee the country nor go into the military. I'd just stay put: it's not right for the government to force you into service and maybe shooting people who are no threat to you.

Okay, at leasy you're honest.

Now consider that it is part of the Constitution of the United States - do you agree with the Constitution or not ???


The majority of laws in the Constitution I can agree with, but this part I seriously don't. However, no one can impose the morals of serving the country on you, but you.


With all due respect - this isn't really about you as an individual, it is about America as a country. Consider this:

The Constitution of the United States
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Article. I.

Section. 8.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

This actually refers to what we used to call the "Draft", and in-as-much as it is the "Law of the land", and has not been repealed by amendment - you can be compelled and prosecuted for any violation or refusal.

Considering that the draft was ended (not registration), and that 98% of our current military both enlisted and officer personnel are "volunteers" should speak volumes.

Look, there are a number of current laws that I personally do not like - but the plain simple fact is whether or not I agree, I am subject to them just the same.

[Viper2]

Question - what is so wrong with a person receiving two years of military training ???
Nothing, being forced into that training is. Would I leave the country, maybe? I'll volunteer to serve my country but I won’t be force too. I'd be volunteering because I love the freedom this country offers. If that was taken away from me because I'm a certain age I would no longer feel free or wish to serve that country.


Consider my response to micfranklin above.

[Viper2]

I personally believe that a truly free society wouldn't force citizens into military service, but I had to post this just to see where everyone else stands. Any thoughts?


Considering that forced conscription is the opposite of freedom I agree. I've never served, but I understand the first thing they do in the military is take away your sense of self identity, and teach you to not make independent descisions or think for yourself.Â*Â*Basically they turn you into an unquestioning yes men.Â*Â*Good for politicians who want to rule without critical judgement, bad for the people.


First, you have been woefully misinformed, and are sadly mistaken.

Question - have you ever played team sports ?????

Question - where is the I in team ?????

[Viper2]

the first thing they do in the military is take away your sense of self identity, and teach you to not make independent descisions or think for yourself.Â*Â*Basically they turn you into an unquestioning yes men.Â*Â*

I have no clue where on God's green earth you pulled that out of (actually I do have an idea) but it is dead wrong.

I was in the USMC for 10 years.Â*Â*The only thing we were taught in regards to personality is to think for your self.Â*Â*Learn how to make those tough, in-the-field decisions that could save the lives of many men and to allow you to create your own personal identity and become unique.

Perhaps you should quit stating things you hear from friends as fact and stick to things you know.

And while you're at it have some fucking respect for my fellow soldiers and never potray them as weak, mindless, incapable robots again.

Dismissed.


Ouch - that hurt - however, 101% accurately on target.

Semper Fi Marine

[Viper2]

Gee stoner...didn't mean to push yer button like that.

TBH, my dad who served in Korea and worked at the pentagon all his life is the one who told me that. I also know some kids who have gone through basic the past few years who seem to lack direction or the ability to move forward with their lives. I also have many guard friends with issues...they seem to rely a lot on mood altering drugs to stay level....I probably just haven't been exposed to the right examples.

Could just be the local water.....


Well, although I respect and thank you father for his service - I know it wasn't that way when I enlisted in the Air Force in 58.

As for the rest of the bunch - they are one sorry bunch of f'd up pieces of humanity. Tell them to go regular, perhaps that will kick the shit out of them and they'll square their lives away.

And NO NO NO you haven't been exposed to the proper influence / examples in this area.

If I may suggest there are a couple of websites that you could go to and do some personal investigation to obtain proper information.

http://www.military.com/

Here there are links to the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps and Coast Guard

http://www.defenselink.mil/sites/

Here there are links to the above an a whole lot more

http://www.about.com

Has a military section headed by Ron Powers which answers just about any and all questions you might think of

[Viper2]

[Considering that forced conscription is the opposite of freedom I agree. I've never served, but I understand the first thing they do in the military is take away your sense of self identity, and teach you to not make independent descisions or think for yourself.Â*Â*Basically they turn you into an unquestioning yes men.Â*Â*Good for politicians who want to rule without critical judgement, bad for the people.

I disagree with much of that statement.Â*Â*Basic training in the army helped give me confidence to face the world around me, gave me leadership skills, helped me to get into good shape and gave me real goals to go after.Â*Â*I was not an 'unquestioning yes man'.Â*Â*We were taught to be able to think on our own as well.


Way to go - you tell 'em - Thank you for your service - it is appreciated.

[Viper2]

micfranklin:
That's another reason for me not to join: I like having independent thoughts, and making one into an unquestioning person means they can make you do things normal people wouldn't dream of doing.

I personally do not know where you are getting this information – the current personnel in the military are among the highest educated that we’ve ever had.

Perhaps you’d take a minute to view this.

http://www.ibctoday.com/News/ViewNewsItem.aspx?newsItemId=12512&rootVideoPanelType=1

Sean Hannity - Candid interview with US troops in Mosul, Iraq, 12 Dec 2006

[Viper2]

There is nothing in the constitution about paying federal income tax too but you all pay it.

It was the 16th amendment that opened that door up to hell.

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Why not have a new amendment for mandatory military service?


If I may respectfully disagree:

The Constitution of the United States

Article. I.

Section. 8.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

IMHO this laid the basis for the 16th Amendment.

[Viper2]

Well, at least we can agree that military conscription as of right now is unConstitutional.Â*Â*So why don't we amend the Constitution?Â*Â*Because it is not the place of the gov't to force conscription in a circumstance in which our nation's territorial integrity and freedoms are being attacked.

-NC


Please refer to my previous responses indicating the portions of the US Constitution that speak directly to this matter - which in the final analysis shows it is Constitutional.

[NortheastCynic]

"Providing for the general defense" is a vague term that does not include Conscription specifically. I might side with you on your interpretation if not for the 13th Amendment: Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
It seems to me that any opening for a draft that may exist due to Article one is dismissed summarily by the 13th Amendment.

-NC

[Viper2]

"Providing for the general defense" is a vague term that does not include Conscription specifically.Â*Â*I might side with you on your interpretation if not for the 13th Amendment: Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
It seems to me that any opening for a draft that may exist due to Article one is dismissed summarily by the 13th Amendment.

-NC


Consider that our Founding Fathers knew from their experiences that in drafting the Constitution and Bill of Rights that it was impossible to make specific mention of every possible contingency or event in absolute detail that might happen in the future. Thus certain portions were mentioned in general

Now, IMHO, your interpretation of this amendment is incorrect. First you must consider how this amendment came to being, and the purpose of it - Military Service, even if drafted is not "slavery" or "involuntary servitude" or even "indenturship" Consider one of the reasons for the Civil War, and President Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation for further insight.

Now, if you carefully study the Constitution, you will note that where an Amendment is used to change a part of the Constitution in any way, it is mentioned in the Amendment itself, for instance, take Amendment 13 as you feel this is your escape clause:

AMENDMENT XIII

Passed by Congress January 31, 1865. Ratified December 6, 1865.

Note: A portion of Article IV, section 2, of the Constitution was superseded by the 13th amendment.

Section 1.
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2.
Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

The portion of Article IV Section 2 that this refers to is:

(3) (No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.)

Does this clear up any questions you may have ?????

[NortheastCynic]

Consider that our Founding Fathers knew from their experiences that in drafting the Constitution and Bill of Rights that it was impossible to make specific mention of every possible contingency or event in absolute detail that might happen in the future. Thus certain portions were mentioned in generalAgreed, hence the 9th and 10th Amendments.Â*Â*
Now, IMHO, your interpretation of this amendment is incorrect. First you must consider how this amendment came to being, and the purpose of it - Military Service, even if drafted is not "slavery" or "involuntary servitude" or even "indenturship" Consider one of the reasons for the Civil War, and President Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation for further insight.I fail to see how a draft or forced service could be called anything other than "involuntary servitude".

Does this clear up any questions you may have ?????As I've said, I cannot possibly see the argument for calling the draft or mandatory service anything other than "involuntary servitude".Â*Â*In order for me to agree that mandatory service is legal, I would have to believe that it isn't "involuntary servitude".

-NC

[Nemo]

“Utilizing the language of the ordinance of 1787, the 13th Amendment declares that neither slavery nor involuntary servitude shall exist. This Amendment was adopted with reference to conditions existing since the foundation of our government, and the term 'involuntary servitude' was intended to cover those forms of compulsory labor akin to African slavery which, in practical operation, would tend to produce like undesirable results. It introduced no novel doctrine with respect of services always treated as exceptional, and certainly was not intended to interdict enforcement of those duties which individuals owe to the state, such as services in the army, militia, on the jury, etc. The great purpose in view was liberty under the protection of effective government, not the destruction of the latter by depriving it of essential powers.â€� [Citations Omitted];Â*Â*Butler v. Perry, 240 U.S. 228, 333 (1916).

[NortheastCynic]

I respectfully disagree with that decision, for the simple reason that the law is written in such a way so as to prohibit "involuntary servitude", which it differentiates from slavary.Â*Â*If the authors of the amendment meant for the the two to be synonymous, they would have used different words.

In addition, the Constitutionality [or lack thereof, I should say] of mandatory service is but a PART of my reason for opposing it, as I've said all along. I have, in fact, mentioned three reasons for my opposition:
1. Constitutionality
2. The government has no business forcing service on anyone in a non-emergency situation
3. The result of the enlistment of every 18-20 year old in the service would be catostrophic to our economy.

-NC

[potter]

Gee stoner...didn't mean to push yer button like that.

TBH, my dad who served in Korea and worked at the pentagon all his life is the one who told me that. I also know some kids who have gone through basic the past few years who seem to lack direction or the ability to move forward with their lives. I also have many guard friends with issues...they seem to rely a lot on mood altering drugs to stay level....I probably just haven't been exposed to the right examples.

Could just be the local water.....


Well, although I respect and thank you father for his service - I know it wasn't that way when I enlisted in the Air Force in 58.

As for the rest of the bunch - they are one sorry bunch of f'd up pieces of humanity. Tell them to go regular, perhaps that will kick the shit out of them and they'll square their lives away.

And NO NO NO you haven't been exposed to the proper influence / examples in this area.

If I may suggest there are a couple of websites that you could go to and do some personal investigation to obtain proper information.

http://www.military.com/

Here there are links to the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps and Coast Guard

http://www.defenselink.mil/sites/

Here there are links to the above an a whole lot more

http://www.about.com

Has a military section headed by Ron Powers which answers just about any and all questions you might think of



Thank you for the links Viper2.

I'm willing to agree that military service is just what some people need, but not all people. I've always been driven and goal oriented so military service just wasn't in the cards for me. I'm also not one to rely on violence to solve my problems and it has servied me well. Society rejects violence as an answer to despuites within the US, so I really cannot understand why violence is so readily accepted as a proper response everywhere else.

As this is a poll I only stated my opinion, however I did not expect it to insult for which I apologize. I also have a very inherent distrust of anything government. The past few years have only served to strengthen my distrust of all things government.

Perhaps if the question was changed to reflect mandatory community service or national guard service I would have a different opinion. I think America is violent enough as it is without training people to be more agressive.

IMHO

[Nemo]

I would say that the decision of the United States Supreme Court is pretty much the last word on the subject.Â*Â*As Mr. Justice Jackson put it: “We are not final because we are infallible, but we are infallible only because we are final" - Associate Justice Robert H. Jackson on the Supreme Court; opinion concurring in judgement in Brown v. Allen, 344 U.S. 443 (1953).

[NortheastCynic]

I would say that the decision of the United States Supreme Court is pretty much the last word on the subject.Obviously as it stands right now, precedents says that a draft is legal...I just happen to disagree with that precedent. As I said, is there any possible way that mandatory military service is anything other than "involuntary servitude"? This is a question I've asked that has gone unanswered.

-NC

[Viper2]

My, my, my - this thread has taken on a life of its own.

Personally, I like and am enjoying the discourse. :D:D

[Viper2]

NortheastCynic:
Agreed, hence the 9th and 10th Amendments.

You’re straining at a gnat – and if push comes to shove, you will lose your case. Believe me, I knew a guy in my senior class in high-school who attempted almost the same as your argument here. His father hired a lawyer, and by the time everything was done and approximately $45,000 later the case was thrown out and still he went into the Army.

I fail to see how a draft or forced service could be called anything other than "involuntary servitude".

As I've said, I cannot possibly see the argument for calling the draft or mandatory service anything other than "involuntary servitude". In order for me to agree that mandatory service is legal, I would have to believe that it isn't "involuntary servitude".

Perhaps, if you looked up the definitions of those words, and reviewed the Emancipation Proclamation and its purpose, you would be more enlightened.

[Viper2]

“Utilizing the language of the ordinance of 1787, the 13th Amendment declares that neither slavery nor involuntary servitude shall exist. This Amendment was adopted with reference to conditions existing since the foundation of our government, and the term 'involuntary servitude' was intended to cover those forms of compulsory labor akin to African slavery which, in practical operation, would tend to produce like undesirable results. It introduced no novel doctrine with respect of services always treated as exceptional, and certainly was not intended to interdict enforcement of those duties which individuals owe to the state, such as services in the army, militia, on the jury, etc. The great purpose in view was liberty under the protection of effective government, not the destruction of the latter by depriving it of essential powers.â€� [Citations Omitted];Â*Â*Butler v. Perry, 240 U.S. 228, 333 (1916).


IMHO, excellent points - thanks.

[Viper2]

I respectfully disagree with that decision, for the simple reason that the law is written in such a way so as to prohibit "involuntary servitude", which it differentiates from slavary.Â*Â*If the authors of the amendment meant for the the two to be synonymous, they would have used different words.

In addition, the Constitutionality [or lack thereof, I should say] of mandatory service is but a PART of my reason for opposing it, as I've said all along.Â*Â*I have, in fact, mentioned three reasons for my opposition:
1. Constitutionality
2. The government has no business forcing service on anyone in a non-emergency situation
3. The result of the enlistment of every 18-20 year old in the service would be catostrophic to our economy.

-NC


With all due respect - Your interpretations of the Constitution are in error, and your premise would not stand up to Constitutional Law scrutiny - LSS, you would lose.

There are many laws that I personally feel are wrong - however, yet they are enacted and I am like it or not subject to them. That's life.

Consider WW II, you had 16 year olds attempting to join the military - we are the only country in history to fight a two fron war in two different hemispheres and win - and our economy survived.

[NortheastCynic]

There are many laws that I personally feel are wrong - however, yet they are enacted and I am like it or not subject to them. That's life.I never said I wouldn't be subjected to a manadatory military tour, if it were in fact enacted. What I'm saying is that I believe that if it were enacted it would be unConstitutional. I'm surely not saying I would not be subject to it, it would be on a long list of illegal things I am subjected to at the hands of the Federal Government. I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying, Viper, no offense. I'm not saying that a law would be null and void because I believe it to be illegal, I'm saying that if this particular act were passed it would be unConstitutional.

-NC

[Viper2]

potter:
Thank you for the links Viper2.

You are quite welcome

I'm willing to agree that military service is just what some people need, but not all people. I've always been driven and goal oriented so military service just wasn't in the cards for me. I'm also not one to rely on violence to solve my problems and it has servied me well. Society rejects violence as an answer to despuites within the US, so I really cannot understand why violence is so readily accepted as a proper response everywhere else.

Understood – and military life wouldn’t suit you. I was always goal oriented also starting when I joined the Cub Scouts at 8 – I then became an over achiever. My intentions were to make the military a career for 20 to 30 years – problem was my PTSD breakdown cut it short.

As far as society is concerned I would disagree – it has become more violent and morally corrupt over the past 20 or so years, increasing in intensity as time goes on.

Personally, I prefer to negotiate, however, I refuse to do so for time immemorial – there is a time for talking and when it is not achieving anything, then action is required. The problem is too many rely on a “possible� break through tomorrow – however, tomorrow never comes.


As this is a poll I only stated my opinion, however I did not expect it to insult for which I apologize. I also have a very inherent distrust of anything government. The past few years have only served to strengthen my distrust of all things government.

IMHO, there is no need for an apology, simply because I don’t see where you insulted anyone. You have specific thoughts and concerns like all of us do – and you just expressed them in a civil manner.

[underdawg]

I do think that if the government decides to have a manditory draft again, I don't think anyone should be exempt. Any able bodied person should do their part. The very rich, women, gays, and older people in good health can all do their part. If everyone were to be subject to a draft, then it would seem more fair. Old people and women might not have combat roles, but they can have other type of non-combat roles.

[Thirdparty]

I personally believe that a truly free society wouldn't force citizens into military service, but I had to post this just to see where everyone else stands. Any thoughts?


Considering that forced conscription is the opposite of freedom I agree. I've never served, but I understand the first thing they do in the military is take away your sense of self identity, and teach you to not make independent descisions or think for yourself.Â*Â*Basically they turn you into an unquestioning yes men.Â*Â*Good for politicians who want to rule without critical judgement, bad for the people.


Hey Potter,

I am a two term Iraqi vet, (both Gulf wars), Army reserve NG, and I am also a college graduate with Master's to boot. Does that sound like a mindless automon to you? Maybe if you got your lazy butt out from a computer screen and did something you might learn something about military personnel.

[firefox]

Point of info - I was 17 when I enlisted and 19 when I volunteered for combat training and turned 20 the month I went into combat.

Question - what is so wrong with a person receiving two years of military training ???


I think it's a good idea. I just don't think it should:

A) Be mandatory (aka conscription!), or
B) Done by the state

I'm all for private training though. There are already hundreds of firearms and survival training places around the US. I think there's no good reason why we can't have competing voluntary for/non profit military training organizations.

[potter]

I personally believe that a truly free society wouldn't force citizens into military service, but I had to post this just to see where everyone else stands. Any thoughts?


Considering that forced conscription is the opposite of freedom I agree. I've never served, but I understand the first thing they do in the military is take away your sense of self identity, and teach you to not make independent descisions or think for yourself.Â*Â*Basically they turn you into an unquestioning yes men.Â*Â*Good for politicians who want to rule without critical judgement, bad for the people.


Hey Potter,

I am a two term Iraqi vet, (both Gulf wars), Army reserve NG, and I am also a collegeÂ*Â*graduate with Master's to boot. Does that sound like a mindless automon to you? Maybe if you got your lazy butt out from a computer screen and did something you might learn something about military personnel.



Good for you. My experience with military personel leads me to believe that you are the exception.

Congratulations

[micfranklin]

I do think that if the government decides to have a manditory draft again, I don't think anyone should be exempt. Any able bodied person should do their part. The very rich, women, gays, and older people in good health can all do their part. If everyone were to be subject to a draft, then it would seem more fair. Old people and women might not have combat roles, but they can have other type of non-combat roles.


Hopefully, the draft won't be happening anytime soon.

[Stoner]

Hopefully, the draft won't be happening anytime soon.


A draft will never happen in this country again.

[Viper2]

There are many laws that I personally feel are wrong - however, yet they are enacted and I am like it or not subject to them. That's life.

I never said I wouldn't be subjected to a manadatory military tour, if it were in fact enacted.Â*Â*What I'm saying is that I believe that if it were enacted it would be unConstitutional.Â*Â*I'm surely not saying I would not be subject to it, it would be on a long list of illegal things I am subjected to at the hands of the Federal Government.Â*Â*I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying, Viper, no offense.Â*Â*I'm not saying that a law would be null and void because I believe it to be illegal, I'm saying that if this particular act were passed it would be unConstitutional.

-NC


Well, if the Draft was reinstituted - it would be "Constitionally" sound as the prerequsites are already part and partial of the Constitution itself, as I've already proven - and those portions have not been repealed by any subsequent Amendments.

And, no offense was taken as one was not issued. :D

So, prepare thyself :):)

[Viper2]

I do think that if the government decides to have a manditory draft again, I don't think anyone should be exempt. Any able bodied person should do their part. The very rich, women, gays, and older people in good health can all do their part. If everyone were to be subject to a draft, then it would seem more fair. Old people and women might not have combat roles, but they can have other type of non-combat roles.


I agree to a point, and your comment is a good one.

America and Americans have not sacrificed as individuals and a united country since WW II. Perhaps that's one of the reasone why so many complain as they do - which leads me to this:

Every good citizen makes his country's honor his own, and cherishes it not only as precious but as sacred. He is willing to risk his life in its defense and its conscious that he gains protection while he gives it.
Andrew Jackson

God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to guard and defend it.
Daniel Webster

No man is worth his salt who is not ready at all times to risk his well-being, to risk his body, to risk his life, in a great cause.
Theodore Roosevelt

Now, as I have stated previously - not everyone is suited for military life - and not everyone can pass a military physical.

Additionally, as with WW II - you need xxxxx number to be in the military in various jobs - and you still need xxxxx number of people in the civilian sector. So, some sort of directives would have to be established which would separate the two - and establish the criterion for those, say past acceptance age who would be required to perform various military duties. Additionally, one must remember that over the past 10 to 15 years alone technology has drastically changed the face of our Armed Forces, and not everyone could adapt or perhaps have the "smarts" to fill a number of positions.

[Viper2]

Thirdparty:
Hey Potter,

I am a two term Iraqi vet, (both Gulf wars), Army reserve NG, and I am also a college graduate with Master's to boot. Does that sound like a mindless automon to you? Maybe if you got your lazy butt out from a computer screen and did something you might learn something about military personnel.

Excellent point. Regretfully, too many listen to the likes of Senator Rangel - even though he's a racist bigot.

All it really take is a Google search or a search of the numerous military and/or DOD websites. Anyway, I got my BS degree in Business Management / Human Resources while I was in.

[Viper2]

Point of info - I was 17 when I enlisted and 19 when I volunteered for combat training and turned 20 the month I went into combat.

Question - what is so wrong with a person receiving two years of military training ???


I think it's a good idea. I just don't think it should:

A) Be mandatory (aka conscription!), or
B) Done by the state

I'm all for private training though. There are already hundreds of firearms and survival training places around the US. I think there's no good reason why we can't have competing voluntary for/non profit military training organizations.


I understand where you are comming from. Actually, quite a number of active Regulars that I know (in the Army, Air Force, Marines and Navy) all say they prefer to serve with "volunteers", as opposed to those who are drafted - and I conclude that the reason(s) are obvious.

Personally, having one official Armed Forces is better than having a civilian counterpart in addition to. Here also, I think the reason(s) are obvious as well.

[Viper2]

Potter:
Good for you. My experience with military personel leads me to believe that you are the exception.

Congratulations

If I may ask - how so ?????

[Viper2]

Hopefully, the draft won't be happening anytime soon.


A draft will never happen in this country again.


Personally, I hope it would not be necessary - however, you never know :cool::cool:

[firefox]

I agree. I would serve in the rare instance where it was a real threat situation, but I would have no qualms about disappearing if I judged the conflict to be a bad war.