House passes minimum wage increase

[Cobra]

Yay

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/minimum_wage

WASHINGTON - The Democratic-controlled House voted Wednesday to increase the federal minimum wage to $7.25 an hour, bringing America's lowest-paid workers a crucial step closer to their first raise in a decade.

The vote was 315-116, with more than 80 Republicans joining Democrats to pass it.

"You should not be relegated to poverty if you work hard and play by the rules," said House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (news, bio, voting record), D-Md.

The bill was the second measure passed since Democrats took control of the House, ending more than a decade of Republican rule.

The measure, which now goes to the Senate, would raise the federal wage floor by $2.10 from its current $5.15 an hour in three steps over 26 months.

The Senate is expected to move quickly — perhaps in the next few weeks — on a similar bill. Business groups and some Republican lawmakers, however, hope they will be able to get some business-friendly provisions into the Senate package.

The last increase was in 1997, when President Clinton successfully prodded the GOP-controlled Congress to enact the increase. Republicans declined to approve another raise for the six years in which they held majorities in the House and Senate and President Bush was in the White House.

Organized labor and other supporters pitched the bill as badly needed assistance for the working poor.

Business groups and other critics said it could lead to higher prices for goods and services, force small companies to pink-slip existing workers or hire fewer new ones, and crimp profits.

The White House issued a statement saying it opposed the bill because it "fails to provide relief to small businesses."

Senate Democratic leaders have already signaled they will accept changes designed to shield small businesses from adverse consequences of higher labor costs.

"This bill increases costs for mom-and-pop businesses," said Steve Chabot (news, bio, voting record), R-Ohio, contending the legislation doesn't do anything to help offset that burden.

Many businesses want the pot sweetened, perhaps by faster depreciation or other tax breaks or letting small businesses band together to buy health insurance for their workers.

"In America we can either have maximum opportunity or we can have minimum wages. We cannot have both," said Rep. Jeb Hensarling (news, bio, voting record), R-Texas.

The bill would raise the wage floor in three steps. It would go to $5.85 an hour 60 days after signed into law by the president, to $6.55 a year later and to $7.25 a year after that.

"For 10 years the lowest-paid Americans have been frozen out. They have been working at a federal poverty wage, not a federal minimum wage," said Rep. George Miller (news, bio, voting record), D-Calif., author of the legislation.

Bush has said he supports a wage boost paired with "targeted tax and regulatory relief" to help businesses — which would have to pay for the higher labor costs — stay competitive.

The Labor Department says 479,000 workers paid by the hour earned exactly $5.15 in 2005, the most recent estimate available.

The federal minimum wage is like a national wage floor, though some people can be paid less under certain circumstances. States can set minimum wages above the federal level; more than two dozen states plus the District of Columbia do.

People who are paid the minimum wage tend to be young — under age 25 — never married, more likely to be women, minorities and part-timers, according to a recent analysis of 2005 data by the Labor Department.

If the federal wage does rise in 26 months to $7.25 an hour, about 5.6 million people — 4 percent of the work force — who make less than that would be directly affected, according to the Economic Policy Institute, a liberal leaning group. The group estimates that an additional 7.4 million workers would benefit indirectly as raising the floor would ripple through the work force.

Recent attempts to boost the federal minimum wage had failed when Republicans had control of Congress. But prospects changed after the Nov. 7 midterm elections put Democrats in charge in both the House and Senate.

[lily]

Long overdue.

[Labrocca]

Yeah I can see this getting passed. It's not imho a big deal. Anyone accepting a job below $7 an hour deserves to get their head examined. One does have to wonder though if this won't push some business to hire cheaper illegal immigrants.

[Cobra]

Yeah I can see this getting passed.Â*Â*It's not imho a big deal.Â*Â*Anyone accepting a job below $7 an hour deserves to get their head examined.Â*Â*
That's all most places around here will pay people like me if you can get a job. This means I'll be making way more this summer though.

[Labrocca]

Yeah I can see this getting passed.Â*Â*It's not imho a big deal.Â*Â*Anyone accepting a job below $7 an hour deserves to get their head examined.Â*Â*
That's all most places around here will pay people like me if you can get a job. This means I'll be making way more this summer though.


Not really...it might mean they just won't hire more people.

[Cobra]

Not really...it might mean they just won't hire more people.

They already work at the bare minimum to save money. You have to some people to have a business. The economy isn't bad and rich chains which nearly all are should not have a problem with it.

[Waffletush]

It's not thie 'rich chains' that will have an issue with it. Sure it makes great news to attack big box stores like WalMart and Home Depot, but in the end, it is the mom and pop stores who everyone frets about, and claims to be looking out for, that will suffer.

[lily]

Yeah I can see this getting passed.Â*Â*It's not imho a big deal.Â*Â*Anyone accepting a job below $7 an hour deserves to get their head examined.Â*Â*One does have to wonder though if this won't push some business to hire cheaper illegal immigrants.


Then those business need to be busted.

Waffeltush wrote:

It's not thie 'rich chains' that will have an issue with it.Â*Â*Sure it makes great news to attack big box stores like WalMart and Home Depot, but in the end, it is the mom and pop stores who everyone frets about, and claims to be looking out for, that will suffer.

I didn't read in the article or anyone's repsonse where WalMart and Home Depot were mentioned. Those stores serve a purpose and people that don't believe in their practices don't shop there. As for the mom and pop stores......isn't the very definition family owned? You pay your family what you want.

From the article:

Business groups and other critics said it could lead to higher prices for goods and services, force small companies to pink-slip existing workers or hire fewer new ones, and crimp profits.

The auto plants have been doing this for years. Offering early retirement, buy outs, so they can hire in younger workers at less pay and with less benefits.

[Stoner]

This means I'll be making way more this summer though.


Wrong.Â*Â*Try again.

Minimum wage increase hurts people like you...doesn't help.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

Yeah I can see this getting passed. It's not imho a big deal. Anyone accepting a job below $7 an hour deserves to get their head examined. One does have to wonder though if this won't push some business to hire cheaper illegal immigrants.


Then those business need to be busted.


Except the same people who want to increase minimum wage are usually the same ones protecting the illegals.

Raising the minimum wage is a typical liberal cause, it does basically nothing for the betterment of society, but it does sound good.

[sbannon]

It always amazes me, the excuses I hear from the right against raising the minimum wage, and yet none of them [the excuses] have ever born out as true when raises were enacted.

My state, like 19 others plus the District of Columbia, grew tired of waiting for Washington to do this right thing and raised the minimum wage on our own.

In states where the state took it upon themselves to do this, it hasn't had any significant negative effects at all. It hasn't hurt job growth, in fact many states report an increase in growth since raising the minimum wage.

It hasn't driven up prices to infinity, the fact is prices for everything (food, rent, fuel and etc.) have climbed every year since 1997 (the last federal minimum wage increase) while minimum wage workers have seen no increase in pay to keep up with the rising costs.

And it hasn't hurt small businesses, to the contrary, the Fiscal Policy Institute ran a study comparing states that had raised the minimum wage against states which hadn't and found that "the number of small business establishments grew twice as quickly in states with a higher minimum wage. Employment and payroll also grew faster in higher minimum wage states."
Source: http://www.fiscalpolicy.org/minimumwageandsmallbusiness.pdf

In a nation where we use standards, typically someone's moral standards, to justify and legislate on everything shouldn't we have the standard that says nobody willing to work full time should live below the poverty line? It just seems... I don't know... morally right to me.

[Waffletush]

And who decides what is morally right? What is that phrase we hear over and over... "Don't push your morals on me."

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

In states where the state took it upon themselves to do this, it hasn't had any significant negative effects at all.


Prove that please.

[Cobra]

Wrong.Â*Â*Try again.

Minimum wage increase hurts people like you...doesn't help.


Not if I don't spend it once I make it.

[sbannon]

In states where the state took it upon themselves to do this, it hasn't had any significant negative effects at all.


Prove that please.

Gee, I thought I did provide evidence? Um, here, I'll recap:

1) Those states which increased their minimum wage have seen faster growth in employment and payroll rates than states who haven't raised the minimum wage
2) Those states which increased their minimum wage saw small business start ups at twice the rate of states which hadn't raised the minimum wage
3) Workers in those states which increased their minimum wage can better pay for essentials like food, shelter, fuel and etc.--making life better for the worker as well as providing more cash flow for the local economy.
4) Even the smallest of small businesses, categorized as having fewer than 50 employees--these are the businesses even I thought would be somewhat negatively impacted by minimum wage increases--have done better and grown faster in states where the minimum wage was raised.

Take the time to read the study (I provided a nice link in my original post), it was an eye opener even for me and I was already in favor of raising the minimum wage.

http://www.fiscalpolicy.org/minimumwageandsmallbusiness.pdf

[Stoner]

"Raising the minimum wage destroys jobs, and the evidence for that is overwhelming. --- Alan Greenspan - Federal Reserve Chairman

[sbannon]

Stoner, I've shown a study of statistical information... actual facts. If you disagree, do you have anything more conclusive than a quote to offer as evidence?

[Stoner]

I've shown a study of statistical information... actual facts.

Not yet you haven't. When you respond with non-partisan facts I'll reply.

One question for you, Bannon. What would you like to see the minimum wage at?

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

1) Those states which increased their minimum wage have seen faster growth in employment and payroll rates than states who haven't raised the minimum wage


Provide complete data please, not just the historical data of all states, but all other impacts to the economy in all the states.


2) Those states which increased their minimum wage saw small business start ups at twice the rate of states which hadn't raised the minimum wage


As above, include startup failures as well.


3) Workers in those states which increased their minimum wage can better pay for essentials like food, shelter, fuel and etc.--making life better for the worker as well as providing more cash flow for the local economy.


I see no proof of that, please prove it.


4) Even the smallest of small businesses, categorized as having fewer than 50 employees--these are the businesses even I thought would be somewhat negatively impacted by minimum wage increases--have done better and grown faster in states where the minimum wage was raised.


As in #1

Causality has not been proved in any of these claims of yours.

[underdawg]

I think the government should go one step further and increase taxes on those companies that outsourse jobs and give tax breaks to those companies who hire people within this country.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

What? And get sued for unfair trade practices?

[sbannon]

Stoner, I doubt anything supporting a raise to the minimum wage as "good or beneficial" would ever be "non-partisan" for you, so I'll let you stew in defeat over this move by Congress on your own unless you have something factual (not a quoted opinion) to offer as argument against what I've posted.

Provide complete data please, not just the historical data of all states, but all other impacts to the economy in all the states.
FBM, back to the old asking for the impossible as validation are we? To provide measures of all other impacts to the economy in all other states is like asking me to prove infinity by drawing a line to its end. This sort of debating is less than honorable and if it's what you intend to engage in I'll have to leave you stewing in defeat with stoner.

If you'd like to pick specifics in my posts and offer actual counter points for debate I'm happy to oblige, otherwise I haven't time to waste running in circles for the sake of obfuscation with you.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

To provide measures of all other impacts to the economy in all other states is like asking me to prove infinity by drawing a line to its end.


Well then, just provide enough to prove specifically what the economic impact of minimum wage was, separate from all other effects.

You are the one claiming to have proof, right?

[Stoner]

Nice fencing but you didn't answer the question.

What do you think the minimum wage should be? Simple, basic question.

[sbannon]

To provide measures of all other impacts to the economy in all other states is like asking me to prove infinity by drawing a line to its end.


Well then, just provide enough to prove specifically what the economic impact of minimum wage was, separate from all other effects.

You are the one claiming to have proof, right?

Actually, it is the right who always opposes minimum wage increases with claims of how they will hurt...well, just about everyone if you listen to them, yet never provide any sort of evidence nor studies to support those claims.

What I offered was that an independent study, based on actual statistics rather than rhetoric and/or surveys, shows every indication that the exact opposite is true. By comparing the states which did raise the minimum wage against the states that didn't, every indication pointed to faster economic, jobs, and small business growth across the board in those that had raised the minimum wage.

You can't separate the minimum wage from any other economic factors because nobody lives in a bubble. It doesn't even make sense to try, so asking for such evidence is simply a red herring.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

You can't separate the minimum wage from any other economic factors because nobody lives in a bubble. It doesn't even make sense to try, so asking for such evidence is simply a red herring.


No it's not, it's done to show the bogus nature of the study you provided.

How many minimum wage employees existed before and after each minimum wage increase in each state compared to non minimum wage employees, broken down by education? It seems to me that rather than studying all employment like your study does, the effects can be seen most readily by studying the minimum wage earners.

[Stoner]

I'm still waiting for Bannon or any other lib out there to tell me what number minimum wage should be at.

This is usually when you lose the libs on this topic. They can talk a good game but when you ask them to come up with a number they all of a sudden become speechless.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

BTW, here is a collection of minimum wage research, most of it showing devastating effects on the poor and young.

http://www.house.gov/jec/cost-gov/regs/minimum/50years.htm

[sbannon]

Stoner, to be honest, I ignored your question because it was asked as a setup to take the debate away from the topic and facts of what's been done, and into a realm of opinions and conjecture of the hypothetical. Try asking the same question in its own thread and I, and perhaps others, would be happy to discuss it.

FBM, the Joint Economic Committee is the same dumb-ass body that issued reports saying the Estate Tax "forces families to sell or break up their businesses and farms upon the death of the parent who founded the company or farm"--yet, when challenged couldn't produce a single case where this occurred as a result of the tax. Then justified their previous claims by issuing a new report which said they concluded it "could" happen, therefor was a demonstrated risk. Gee, I "could" grow fangs and wings to become the first real living vampire on Earth, but does saying so actually now make that a demonstrated risk?

Please, I think I'll stick with more independent resources to put stock in.

[Stoner]

I ignored your question because it was asked as a setup

No setup. Just your simple, basic question. It's ok. I understand why you can't answer it.

[sbannon]

Stoner, it's off-topic. It has nothing to do with what's been done, you're asking for opinions of the hypothetical. Like I said, ask this in its own thread and I'll be happy to answer, but I'm not going to engage in a branch of discussion here to take this thread off topic.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

FBM, the Joint Economic Committee is the same dumb-ass body that issued reports...


Which is an ad hominum, and you missed the point anyway, the JEC didn't write the reports showing the detrimental effects of the minimum wage on the poor and minority worker, they only compiled a list of them, and there are quite a few.

[sbannon]

And you don't imagine such a ridiculous body could ever cherry-pick where they obtained their "reports", from places such as republican or business owner funded think-tanks?

Come on, I know very few sources are actually neutral and completely bi-partisan, but some (like the JEC) are just a joke to me and I'm sorry, I won't take their publishings of findings into account.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

And you don't imagine such a ridiculous body could ever cherry-pick where they obtained their "reports", from places such as republican or business owner funded think-tanks?

Come on, I know very few sources are actually neutral and completely bi-partisan, but some (like the JEC) are just a joke to me and I'm sorry, I won't take their publishings of findings into account.


So lets recap, you post a single source in favor of minimum wage increase from a dubious source, I provide a report that is a synopsis of multiple sources claiming otherwise, and those sources are not applicable because they might be from republican sources?

I think that pretty much shows everyone here where you are coming from.

[alias]

And the democrats say they are for the "little guy". This does not help the little guy at all. Small business owners are the ones who suffer. It helps the unions though. It gives them more to bargain with. Politics as usual. Now watch the economy slow down and they will blame Bush.

[Buck Laser]

And the democrats say they are for the "little guy". This does not help the little guy at all. Small business owners are the ones who suffer. It helps the unions though. It gives them more to bargain with. Politics as usual. Now watch the economy slow down and they will blame Bush.

You know, I've been hearing this "little guy will suffer" mantra about the minimum wage ever since the minimum wage was $1.60 an hour. I leave it to you to figure out how long ago THAT was. But I've never seen a recession, a downturn in the economy, or a rise in unemployment attributed to a rise in the minimum wage. Do you have some evidence to the contrary? How about showing us, along with a link?

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

Do you have some evidence to the contrary? How about showing us, along with a link?



I did already. Awww, you got me on ignore! Too bad, lol!

[Stoner]

I'm not going to engage in a branch of discussion here to take this thread off topic.


What?Â*Â*Last I checked this thread is about raising the minimum wage.Â*Â*And my question is what you think the minimum wage should be raised to.

That's off topic?

Good ole lib logic for you.

[alias]

And the democrats say they are for the "little guy".Â*Â*This does not help the little guy at all.Â*Â*Small business owners are the ones who suffer.Â*Â*It helps the unions though.Â*Â*It gives them more to bargain with.Â*Â*Politics as usual.Â*Â*Now watch the economy slow down and they will blame Bush.

You know, I've been hearing this "little guy will suffer" mantra about the minimum wage ever since the minimum wage was $1.60 an hour.Â*Â*I leave it to you to figure out how long ago THAT was.Â*Â*But I've never seen a recession, a downturn in the economy, or a rise in unemployment attributed to a rise in the minimum wage.Â*Â*Do you have some evidence to the contrary?Â*Â*How about showing us, along with a link?


If I have a ma and pa greasy spoon in a small town and I hire 2 or 3 high school kids, where do I get the money to pay for this government raise?Â*Â*I have 2 choices, out of my pocket or raise my prices.

I am not a CNN fan, but I do agree with this:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/12/22/minimum.wage.ap/index.html