Do you think "jihad" is justified?

[Nitrus]

"Jihad" means "Religous War".

Do you think a war is justified just because it is deemed "Religous"?

[Deacon]

Well if you look back to the crusades, the English were fighting the Muslims out of present day Spain, the Muslims were fighting in a "jihad" then, and you brought up how they call it a "jihad" or holy war. It is not truly a holy war from a christian aspect, but in Islam and Muslim religons, any attack on their soil is view as an attack on religion, so that is why they think it a jihad.

The reason they are not afraid to die is becasue if you die protecting allah in a jihad its your ticket straight to the muslim heaven

[smub]

well i sort of agree with you navy pilot.

Basically relgion is what people believe in, so ofcourse everybody thinks it differently otherwise everybody would've been a follower of one religion. So to muslims Jihad is a holy war, while christian or any other religon don't think that.

Basically Jihad is an attack on a religon, so the question is why they say if you attack on our land then we are going on jihad ?

Answer - Because that land is a muslim land, so for instance if you attack a country and it have a mosque in it, and you are killing muslims, then others have a right to jihad and fight to defend the religon.

I hope i made myself clear.

[Defender]

Holy wars are insanity. It's like a oxymoron...how can there be a Holy War? Something that is Spiritual and Holy should not include a war.

[khuldun]

Well defender, i think you might like to know about what bush thinks of his invasions :)

Jihad doesnt only mean fighting, it mean controlling oneself. There isnt only fighting in jihad, jihad as described by Islam is

1. fighting against those who fight against you or invade you (i.e. muslims)
2. Gaining education
3. Fighting the evil temptations whispered from satan

Thus, there are three types of Jihads in Islam!

[DemocraticWoof]

I think when you cannot see your god ,then cannot do comic or personifiy which is illegal as it states ,how are yuo gonna recognise it when it comes in front of you?
Contrary to the belief,Man has a habbit to personify everything.They also hate to change and new trends.
When the minds are used for nothing but as records to record, creativity has lesser scope to dwell or has a smaller portion of mind available. A practical application for such a extrimism is Terrorism which is easily fermented in the minds !

[bbalegere]

Most terroists create propaganda about Jihad.
Most terrorists do not know what exactly Jihad.
They are brainwashed when they are in their teens and they attack in the name of Jihad.

[IRoNiK]

I agree, it does seem an aweful lot like a holy war is an oxymoron.

I also agree that not many terrorists know the complete truth about Islam. i watched a special by Barbara Walters in which she talked to different religious figures around the world ranging from christianity to islam to hinduism etc. about heaven.

When she talked to a muslim who had been arrested after his bomb failed to explode, and asked him about why he was doing things, he was almost completely wrong from what the beliefs were of the Muslim Scholars. (The muslim scholars are the ones who spend their entire lives reading, and praying, and thinkin about Islam)

[demo_news]

yeah, u also i agreee, it is like an holy war is practilly oxymoron. =(

[demo_news]

"u also i agreee" <<--- edit " i also agree"

[KrAzY3]

On the contrary, I believe war is never justified if the only or primary justification is over religion.

A lot of the time religion is used as a excuse to take certain actions. Look at the Inquisitions or the Crusades. I also feel that the current situation in the middle east is deliberately fueled by both religious and political leaders that know the key to their power is in creating constant religious fervor.

[AlonzoMourning23]

Yes. Jihad is a very broad term that can mean a personal struggle for improvement (this is the most common form), a struggly against injustice, corruption, to protect the weak etc.

For example, a few years ago the head mufti in Rwanda gave a speech on how muslims should engage in jihad to stamp out ignorance and hatred between hutu's and tutsi's, and attempt to heal the rift between the two.

[forest_ranger254]

"Jihad" means "Religous War".

Do you think a war is justified just because it is deemed "Religous"?


heck no it isn't. the Crusades were fruitless when it comes to converting people. war should be taken at something more serious than a religious difference (ex: the government of another country condoning the mass murder of another country's citizens for no reason.).

disclaimer: example was hypothetical

[PittsburghAfterDark]

The reverse of the crusades though was the settlement of the new world. You will find no stronger bastions of Catholicism than you do south of the Rio Grande to Tierra Del Fuego.

Likewise you find incredibly strong bastions of Catholicism in Africa that resulted from colonial occupation. Same is true of the Phillipines.

The Crusades were not for the purpose of converstion but military conquest of the Holy Lands to Christian rule.

[forest_ranger254]

The reverse of the crusades though was the settlement of the new world.Â*Â*You will find no stronger bastions of Catholicism than you do south of the Rio Grande to Tierra Del Fuego.

Likewise you find incredibly strong bastions of Catholicism in Africa that resulted from colonial occupation.Â*Â*Same is true of the Phillipines.

The Crusades were not for the purpose of converstion but military conquest of the Holy Lands to Christian rule.


Not totally correct, the purpose of the crusades was to bring the holy lands under the papal authority. The pope wanted more money and more land. I still wouldn't condone them. They were an un-Christian chase after land and money. Shoot, one missed the holy land completely and went after the city of Constantinople. you will find no more of bastion there than you do in anywhere else.

[Athena]

Islam is one of several religions that pictures the world as the scene of a struggle between good and evil. The Zoroastrains did this and "established in the popular imagination a powerful supernatural stimulus and sanction for morals. The soul of man, like the universe, was represented as a battleground of beneficent and maleficent spirits, every man was a warrior, whether he liked it or not, in the army of either the Lord or the Devil; every act or omission advanced the cause of Ahura-Mazda or of Ahirman. It was an ethic even more admirable than the theology- if men must have supernatural supports for their morality; it gave to the common life a dignity and significance grander than any that could come to it from a world-view that locked upon man (in medieval phrase) as a helpless worm or (in modern terms) as a mechanical automaton. Human beings were not, to Zarathustra's thinking, mere pawns in the cosmic war; they had free will, since Ahura-Mazda wished them to be personalities in their own right; they might freely choose whether they would follow the Light or the Lie. For Ahirman was the Living Lie, and every liar was his servant." quoted from Our Oriental Heritage by Will Durant.

Hindus, Muslims and Christians carry this same reasoning, and all fight holy wars. The only different understanding is the Athenian belief in reason that makes us as the Gods. Athenians engaged in war, but this was earthly motivated, not holy warring. No, to be as the Gods for an Athenian meant to debate truth and to reason. The Gods being immortal couldn't resolve their differences by killing each other, but had to argue until their was resolution. Reason, is the controlling force of the universe, made manifest in speech. A more civilized way to address conflicts, I think. On the other hand, religions that advance holy wars are Hindu, Christian and Islam.

I put a bit of an explanation of Athenian thinking under American History, and quoted Cicero.

[Athena]

The reverse of the crusades though was the settlement of the new world.Â*Â*You will find no stronger bastions of Catholicism than you do south of the Rio Grande to Tierra Del Fuego.

Likewise you find incredibly strong bastions of Catholicism in Africa that resulted from colonial occupation.Â*Â*Same is true of the Phillipines.

The Crusades were not for the purpose of converstion but military conquest of the Holy Lands to Christian rule.


Not totally correct, the purpose of the crusades was to bring the holy lands under the papal authority. The pope wanted more money and more land. I still wouldn't condone them. They were an un-Christian chase after land and money. Shoot, one missed the holy land completely and went after the city of Constantinople. you will find no more of bastion there than you do in anywhere else.


Those who fought in the crusades were completely caught up in the belief they were fighting for God. May be the chruch had other intentions, but the Christians who went to war didn't know this. One army was all children who almost all died on the way to save the Holy Land. These were very superstitious times and the army of children was motivated by the belief that God would enable them win the war. What happened then and the holy warring occuring today, is the same thing. As outsiders we can see the foolishness of those who give their lives in these holy wars, but those who are giving their lives, sincerely believe they fighting and dying for God. And they all have religious and political leaders who bring them to this.

Billy Graham did a very impressive holiday special about God compelling men to serve in Iraq. I was so moved, I almost signed up to serve in Iraq myself, and I am not a believer in this Hebrew war God, served by Christians and Muslim alike.

[forest_ranger254]

Those who fought in the crusades were completely caught up in the belief they were fighting for God.Â*Â*May be the chruch had other intentions, but the Christians who went to war didn't know this.Â*Â*One army was all children who almost all died on the way to save the Holy Land.Â*Â*These were very superstitious times and the army of children was motivated by the belief that God would enable them win the war.Â*Â* What happened then and the holy warring occuring today, is the same thing.Â*Â*As outsiders we can see the foolishness of those who give their lives in these holy wars, but those who are giving their lives, sincerely believe they fighting and dying for God.Â*Â*And they all have religious and political leaders who bring them to this.Â*Â*

Billy Graham did a very impressive holiday special about God compelling men to serve in Iraq.Â*Â*I was so moved, I almost signed up to serve in Iraq myself, and I am not a believer in this Hebrew war God, served by Christians and Muslim alike.Â*Â*


And they were deceived. It wouldn't be so difficult in those days, the economy and everything still recovering from the fall of Rome. The God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament are one and the same. However, God promised a time where grace ruled, and the god of the Catholics is not reconcilable with God Himself. neither is Allah the same as YHWH (God's name in Hebrew consanants). God supports the country that fights for the helpless. If God was served by both Christians AND Muslims, He would not lead one side into war against another. God is impartial to His followers. It is quite simple to get in His favor, just believe. It isn't too hard.

[forest_ranger254]

Islam is one of several religions that pictures the world as the scene of a struggle between good and evil.Â*Â*The Zoroastrains did this and "established in the popular imagination a powerful supernatural stimulus and sanction for morals.Â*Â*The soul of man, like the universe, was represented as a battleground of beneficent and maleficent spirits, every man was a warrior, whether he liked it or not, in the army of either the Lord or the Devil; every act or omission advanced the cause of Ahura-Mazda or of Ahirman.Â*Â*It was an ethic even more admirable than the theology- if men must have supernatural supports for their morality; it gave to the common life a dignity and significance grander than any that could come to it from a world-view that locked upon man (in medieval phrase) as a helpless worm or (in modern terms) as a mechanical automaton.Â*Â*Human beings were not, to Zarathustra's thinking, mere pawns in the cosmic war; they had free will, since Ahura-Mazda wished them to be personalities in their own right; they might freely choose whether they would follow the Light or the Lie.Â*Â*For Ahirman was the Living Lie, and every liar was his servant."Â*Â*quoted from Our Oriental Heritage by Will Durant.

Hindus, Muslims and Christians carry this same reasoning, and all fight holy wars.Â*Â* The only different understanding is the Athenian belief in reason that makes us as the Gods.Â*Â* Athenians engaged in war, but this was earthly motivated, not holy warring.Â*Â*No, to be as the Gods for an Athenian meant to debate truth and to reason.Â*Â*The Gods being immortal couldn't resolve their differences by killing each other, but had to argue until their was resolution.Â*Â* Reason, is the controlling force of the universe, made manifest in speech.Â*Â*A more civilized way to address conflicts, I think.Â*Â* On the other hand, religions that advance holy wars are Hindu, Christian and Islam.Â*Â*Â*Â*

I put a bit of an explanation of Athenian thinking under American History, and quoted Cicero.Â*Â*


And that helps us? How. Christians go to war to help the helpless or to defend themselves, if they go under God. Any other war led by a "christian" is not under God's favor, and will ultimately come to failure.

PS: I put the quotes there to emphasize that they aren't acting too Christian-like.

[Athena]

Islam is one of several religions that pictures the world as the scene of a struggle between good and evil.Â*Â*The Zoroastrains did this and "established in the popular imagination a powerful supernatural stimulus and sanction for morals.Â*Â*The soul of man, like the universe, was represented as a battleground of beneficent and maleficent spirits, every man was a warrior, whether he liked it or not, in the army of either the Lord or the Devil; every act or omission advanced the cause of Ahura-Mazda or of Ahirman.Â*Â*It was an ethic even more admirable than the theology- if men must have supernatural supports for their morality; it gave to the common life a dignity and significance grander than any that could come to it from a world-view that locked upon man (in medieval phrase) as a helpless worm or (in modern terms) as a mechanical automaton.Â*Â*Human beings were not, to Zarathustra's thinking, mere pawns in the cosmic war; they had free will, since Ahura-Mazda wished them to be personalities in their own right; they might freely choose whether they would follow the Light or the Lie.Â*Â*For Ahirman was the Living Lie, and every liar was his servant."Â*Â*quoted from Our Oriental Heritage by Will Durant.

Hindus, Muslims and Christians carry this same reasoning, and all fight holy wars.Â*Â* The only different understanding is the Athenian belief in reason that makes us as the Gods.Â*Â* Athenians engaged in war, but this was earthly motivated, not holy warring.Â*Â*No, to be as the Gods for an Athenian meant to debate truth and to reason.Â*Â*The Gods being immortal couldn't resolve their differences by killing each other, but had to argue until their was resolution.Â*Â* Reason, is the controlling force of the universe, made manifest in speech.Â*Â*A more civilized way to address conflicts, I think.Â*Â* On the other hand, religions that advance holy wars are Hindu, Christian and Islam.Â*Â*Â*Â*

I put a bit of an explanation of Athenian thinking under American History, and quoted Cicero.Â*Â*


And that helps us? How. Christians go to war to help the helpless or to defend themselves, if they go under God. Any other war led by a "christian" is not under God's favor, and will ultimately come to failure.

PS: I put the quotes there to emphasize that they aren't acting too Christian-like.


I do not understand your point.

My point was religions believe in supernatural powers of good and evil. When the people of these religions go to war, the are always fighting against evil in the name of their God. Always. You may not see their point of view, or you may not agree with their point of view, but from their point of view, they doing God's will by fighting evil. I don't care if these are Jews fighting for Israel, or Christians in all their wars, or Muslims in all their wars, or religous terrorist, they all sincerely believe they are doing the will of God and fighting evil.

A Japanese exchange student I spend time with, thought all US citizens carry guns. The world knows the US best by the movies the US sends around the world. These movies are made to attract young males, and therefore they are action packed and usually violent. The US has a terrible drug and alcohol problem, high divorce rate, high crime rate. The US citizens don't respect the laws of Muslim countries when we enter them, but kill citizens, get drunk, seduce women, and thanks to Bush, are also known for perverted sexual torture. Come on, how much of a display of immorality does it take before a Muslim is justified in thinking fighting against the US is fighting against evil?

[Labrocca]

Athena don't try and say that Muslims or anyone else don't commit strange sex acts. The current thought process of the Muslims is very much anti-american. We are who we are though. And as you stated a friend thought all US citizens carried guns. Just because people don't like us or think ill of us doesn't make us bad. We have a PR problem with the world right now. Maybe more people need to remember what the US did for the world against the Nazi's. America represents freedom. However many parts of the world don't understand the concept since they have never truely had it.

I don't think Jihad is justified but I think the Muslims do justify it to themselves. EVERYONE always justifies their own actions no matter what they do. NO ONE believes they are wrong or the bad person.

[forest_ranger254]

I do not understand your point.Â*Â*

My point was religions believe in supernatural powers of good and evil.Â*Â*When the people of these religions go to war, the are always fighting against evil in the name of their God.Â*Â*Always.Â*Â*You may not see their point of view, or you may not agree with their point of view, but from their point of view, they doing God's will by fighting evil.Â*Â* I don't care if these are Jews fighting for Israel, or Christians in all their wars, or Muslims in all their wars, or religous terrorist, they all sincerely believe they are doing the will of God and fighting evil.Â*Â*

A Japanese exchange student I spend time with, thought all US citizens carry guns.Â*Â*The world knows the US best by the movies the US sends around the world.Â*Â*These movies are made to attract young males, and therefore they are action packed and usually violent.Â*Â*The US has a terrible drug and alcohol problem, high divorce rate, high crime rate.Â*Â*The US citizens don't respect the laws of Muslim countries when we enter them, but kill citizens, get drunk, seduce women, and thanks to Bush, are also known for perverted sexual torture.Â*Â*Come on, how much of a display of immorality does it take before a Muslim is justified in thinking fighting against the US is fighting against evil?


And once we get past the elementary level stuff. Anybody who is into religion even a little knows that everyone has a good and evil side to the supernatural. Now, how the heck does that add to the debate?

[Athena]

I do not understand your point.Â*Â*

My point was religions believe in supernatural powers of good and evil.Â*Â*When the people of these religions go to war, the are always fighting against evil in the name of their God.Â*Â*Always.Â*Â*You may not see their point of view, or you may not agree with their point of view, but from their point of view, they doing God's will by fighting evil.Â*Â* I don't care if these are Jews fighting for Israel, or Christians in all their wars, or Muslims in all their wars, or religous terrorist, they all sincerely believe they are doing the will of God and fighting evil.Â*Â*

A Japanese exchange student I spend time with, thought all US citizens carry guns.Â*Â*The world knows the US best by the movies the US sends around the world.Â*Â*These movies are made to attract young males, and therefore they are action packed and usually violent.Â*Â*The US has a terrible drug and alcohol problem, high divorce rate, high crime rate.Â*Â*The US citizens don't respect the laws of Muslim countries when we enter them, but kill citizens, get drunk, seduce women, and thanks to Bush, are also known for perverted sexual torture.Â*Â*Come on, how much of a display of immorality does it take before a Muslim is justified in thinking fighting against the US is fighting against evil?


And once we get past the elementary level stuff. Anybody who is into religion even a little knows that everyone has a good and evil side to the supernatural. Now, how the heck does that add to the debate?


Choosing to ignore the laws in Muslim countries is about bad reasoning not supernatural powers.Â*Â*If a Christian nation wants to stop attacks done by those who believe they are fighting evil, it had darn well better work on its own morality so the attacks are not so easily justified.Â*Â*If a democratic country wants to prove living by laws is superior to anarchy, than perhaps they should obey the laws of Muslim countries.Â*Â*

What is going on here?Â*Â*Forest appears to be the only one responding to my post and he doesn't reason.Â*Â*This is my idea of hell, trying to reason with someone doesn't reason but has a faith based, knee jerk reaction to everything.Â*Â*Talk about being like a robot.Â*Â*What I have gained from the frustrating communications with someone who has poor reasoning skills, is that good reasoning skills liberate us and make less like worms or robots and more like human beings and the Gods.Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*

[forest_ranger254]

Choosing to ignore the laws in Muslim countries is about bad reasoning not supernatural powers.Â*Â*If a Christian nation wants to stop attacks done by those who believe they are fighting evil, it had darn well better work on its own morality so the attacks are not so easily justified.Â*Â*If a democratic country wants to prove living by laws is superior to anarchy, than perhaps they should obey the laws of Muslim countries.Â*Â*

What is going on here?Â*Â*Forest appears to be the only one responding to my post and he doesn't reason.Â*Â*This is my idea of hell, trying to reason with someone doesn't reason but has a faith based, knee jerk reaction to everything.Â*Â*Talk about being like a robot.Â*Â*What I have gained from the frustrating communications with someone who has poor reasoning skills, is that good reasoning skills liberate us and make less like worms or robots and more like human beings and the Gods.Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*

Ok, so kill every person that does not practice Islam. Sounds like mass genocide is in your agenda. "Follow the Muslim laws." Pshaw. Reasoning is what gave us the stupidity of the Nazis, the Communists, and the evolutionists. There is an amount of reasoning needed, but the events in the Bible do not break the laws of science. They require only the hypothesis that God exists. Polytheism is too illogical to make sense, with so many holes that there has to be a god for everything. Transcendentalism is just plain stupid and impersonal. Atheism has its own holes that can not and will not be filled, like the questions in the evolutionary chain, all the way from the beginning to the end. The number of fraudulent fossils that are still held as the number one answers to the evolutionary chain.