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lily
01-10-2007, 08:38 PM
The generals on the ground, the joint chiefs and Maliki himself has said extra troops are not wanted and will do no good. Why the big hurry? Seems like that' s how we got into this mess, not listening and being in such a hurry. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/09/AR2007010901872.html?referrer=email)

With Iraq Speech, Bush to Pull Away From His Generals

By Michael Abramowitz, Robin Wright and Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, January 10, 2007; Page A01

When President Bush goes before the American people tonight to outline his
new strategy for Iraq, he will be doing something he has avoided since the
invasion of Iraq in March 2003: ordering his top military brass to take
action they initially resisted and advised against.

Bush talks frequently of his disdain for micromanaging the war effort and
for second-guessing his commanders. "It's important to trust the judgment of
the military when they're making military plans," he told The Washington
Post in an interview last month. "I'm a strict adherer to the command
structure."

But over the past two months, as the security situation in Iraq has
deteriorated and U.S. public support for the war has dropped, Bush has
pushed back against his top military advisers and the commanders in Iraq: He
has fashioned a plan to add up to 20,000 troops to the 132,000 U.S. service
members already on the ground. As Bush plans it, the military will soon be
"surging" in Iraq two months after an election that many Democrats
interpreted as a mandate to begin withdrawing troops.

Pentagon insiders say members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff have long opposed
the increase in troops and are only grudgingly going along with the plan
because they have been promised that the military escalation will be matched
by renewed political and economic efforts in Iraq. Gen. John P. Abizaid, the
outgoing head of Central Command, said less than two months ago that adding
U.S. troops was not the answer for Iraq.

Bush's decision appears to mark the first major disagreement between the
White House and key elements of the Pentagon over the Iraq war since Gen.
Eric K. Shinseki, then the Army chief of staff, split with the
administration in the spring of 2003 over the planned size of the occupation
force, which he regarded as too small.

It may also be a sign of increasing assertiveness from a commander in chief
described by former aides as relatively passive about questioning the advice
of his military advisers. In going for more troops, Bush is picking an
option that seems to have little favor beyond the White House and a handful
of hawks on Capitol Hill and in think tanks who have been promoting the idea
almost since the time of the invasion.

"It seems clear to me that the president has taken more positive control of
this strategy," said Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.), one of those pushing
for more troops. "He understands that the safety of the nation and his
legacy is all on the line here."

Others familiar with Bush's thinking said he had not been happy with the
military's advice. "The president wasn't satisfied with the recommendations
he was getting, and he thought we need a strategy that was more purposeful
and likely to succeed if the Iraqis could make that possible," said Philip
D. Zelikow, who recently stepped down as State Department counselor after
being involved with Iraqi policy the past two years.

This impulse may well expose Bush to more criticism from Democrats on
Capitol Hill, who have sharply condemned him for not listening to Shinseki's
counsel in the beginning. "I think a number of our military leaders have
pulled their punches, and will continue to pull their punches publicly,"
Carl M. Levin (D-Mich.), the new chairman of the Senate Armed Services
Committee, said yesterday.

There is little question that more troops for Iraq seemed far from the
conventional wisdom in Washington after the beating Bush and the Republican
Party took in the midterm elections Nov. 7. Indeed, when Bush met with Iraqi
Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki in Amman, Jordan, on Nov. 30, Maliki did not
ask for more American troops as part of a new Baghdad security plan he
presented to Bush, U.S. officials said.

Maliki's idea was to lower the U.S. profile, not raise it. "The message in
Amman was that he wanted to take the lead and put an Iraqi face on it. He
wanted to control his own forces," said a U.S. official familiar with the
visit.

Another problem for the administration was the Iraq Study Group, the
prestigious bipartisan panel headed by former secretary of state James A.
Baker III, a Republican, and former congressman Lee H. Hamilton (D-Ind.).
Soon after Bush returned from Jordan, the group delivered its
recommendations, including proposing a high-level dialogue with Iran and
Syria to help stabilize Iraq and setting a goal of early 2008 for the
removal of almost all U.S. combat troops.

Stoner
01-10-2007, 09:08 PM
Most of the generals in charge are for this and I just saw an interview with several Iraqi generals and they too think this is a very good idea.

And when you get right down to it this really is the best option.

sbannon
01-10-2007, 09:26 PM
And when you get right down to it this really is the best option.
Stoner, in all seriousness here, can you explain to me what makes this "the best", or even a good option?

I only ask because in all the time that this surge has been discussed, I have yet to hear anyone describe how it will actually make any difference at all. What we're talking about here isn't a new strategy by any means, we've done it 3 or 4 times before. The only difference was before we took troops from other locations and moved them into Baghdad, this time we're sending them from here at home.

So the bottom line is, it seems a lot like just another "more troops into Baghdad" move, which hasn't panned out well for us the last few times and that's why I'm honestly sitting here racking my brain and feeling like the biggest idiot in the world (since I must be missing something really big about this idea) trying to figure out what makes anyone think this time will have a different outcome?

Anti-Racism
01-10-2007, 10:14 PM
Nothing will help this situation. It was a stupid idea to go in and to win we'll have to use Genghis Khan moves like driving the Iraqi population into the sea.

lily
01-10-2007, 10:18 PM
Most of the generals in charge are for this and I just saw an interview with several Iraqi generals and they too think this is a very good idea.

And when you get right down to it this really is the best option.


Well, I guess I can't ask you to post the interview you saw on TV.....but if there were several generals agreeing, I would think this was news. Can you find an article? I'd like to read their reasoning.

piratemonkey
01-10-2007, 10:27 PM
I only ask because in all the time that this surge has been discussed, I have yet to hear anyone describe how it will actually make any difference at all. What we're talking about here isn't a new strategy by any means, we've done it 3 or 4 times before.


Great point.

Each other time we've concentrated troops in a specific area of Iraq, the insurgents just melt away and turn up in another, less protected area.

Why on earth would we expect anything different to happen this time?

Viper2
01-10-2007, 10:49 PM
Ihave a question here.

The opening post stated Maliki didn't want additional troops - however, it seems even the Iraqi government has different views:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/21/AR2006122100629.html?referrer=email

Iraqi Prime Minister Tells Gates He'll Let U.S. Decide on Troop 'Surge'
By Thomas E. Ricks and Sudarsan Raghavan
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, December 22, 2006; Page A23

BAGHDAD, Dec. 21 -- Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki told visiting Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates that he would let U.S. generals decide whether there is a need for a "surge" in U.S. troops deployed in Iraq, according to Iraqi officials with knowledge of the meeting.

In a news conference, Gates said his conversation with the Iraqi prime minister and defense minister included "no numbers. . . . We were really talking in broader terms."

Iraqi Defense Minister Abdul Qadir Muhammed Jassim later indicated general acceptance of an idea that has emerged as one of the chief options President Bush is considering as he reevaluates Iraq policy. "I did not say no to an increase in the number of U.S. troops," Qadir said in a brief interview after the meeting at Maliki's residence in the Green Zone. "If we need it, we need it."

But after seeing Gates, Maliki met with Shiite Muslim members of his alliance, in a session where divisions unfolded over whether more U.S. troops were needed, said Sami al-Askari, a Shiite member of parliament who is close to Maliki. Askari, who attended the second meeting, said there was a general feeling that "there's no need for further troops."

Gates said that during his meeting with Maliki, he "emphasized . . . the steadfastness of American support" for Iraq. The message he heard back from Maliki, he said, was that the Iraqi government wants to take the lead role in solving the country's security problems -- including in the most violent zones in and around Baghdad.

According to a statement issued by the prime minister's office, Maliki told Gates that Sunni Arab insurgents and loyalists of Saddam Hussein's former Baath Party were behind the violence unfolding in the capital.

Maliki spoke in general terms about the Baghdad security plan he has developed, saying Iraqi forces were working with U.S. troops to enact the plan "according to a new vision," the statement said. Maliki's close advisers say he has proposed a two-pronged strategy in which U.S. troops would target Sunni Arab insurgents in outer Baghdad neighborhoods for four to eight weeks, while Iraqi forces would take over control of inner Baghdad.

Maliki would also launch a political offensive, which would include threats of force, to persuade radical cleric Moqtada al-Sadr to agree to contain his Mahdi Army militia during the operation.

Gates has billed his trip to Iraq, launched the day after he became defense secretary earlier this week, as key to formulating his recommendations for Bush on how to reshape the U.S. approach in Iraq. But in his public comments, he gave little indication of how his two days of talks here so far with generals, enlisted soldiers and Iraqi officials have affected his views.

He had breakfast Thursday with more than a dozen enlisted soldiers who were less bashful. Along with his scrambled eggs and hash browns, Gates got an earful about the need for more personnel.

"I really think we need more troops here," said Spec. Jason Glenn, who said he operates an unmanned aerial vehicle in an intelligence unit in the 1st Infantry Division. He said he has noticed that when insurgents see a drone aircraft overhead, they simply lie low, "so I think more presence on the ground" is the answer.

"I think we do need more troops over here," agreed Pfc. Cassandra Wallace, a support soldier in the 10th Mountain Division. "More troops would help us integrate the Iraqi army into patrols here."

Asked later about his breakfast with the soldiers, Gates said he asked for their advice, and "they were not hesitant to give it." He dodged the question raised by their call for a boost in troop levels, saying, "Like most people on the front lines in a battle, they'd always like to have more forces."

There are about 140,000 U.S. soldiers in Iraq, and recently there has been an intense discussion inside the Bush administration about whether to increase that by roughly 30,000 troops for six months, to try to bring security to Baghdad.

"Some say 140,000 troops is quite enough to secure Iraq," said Askari, the Shiite politician allied with Maliki. "The problem is not in the number but in the way the security plan is conducted. The concept of trying to balance between a majority and minority in Iraq, and doing plans only if the minority accepts, is the issue. Some see this as the main problem with the plan. As long as the Americans don't change this tactic, adding more troops won't matter."

Other Shiite politicians at the meeting with Maliki said U.S. and Iraqi commanders should decide whether to increase U.S. troop levels, Askari said.

Late Thursday, the Associated Press reported that Sadr had agreed to allow his supporters to return to their positions in the government and end a three-week boycott of the government begun to protest Maliki's meeting with Bush last month. Nassar al-Rubaie, head of Sadr's parliamentary bloc, denied that account.

Askari said members of the Shiite alliance, a coalition of Shiite groups that leads the government, are planning to meet with Sadr to try to persuade him to end the boycott. Others want to take stronger action and demand that he denounce the Mahdi Army's involvement in sectarian strife.

"We have to solve this for good," Askari said. "We have to have him denounce the militias for good." He added that the meeting would dovetail with Maliki's effort to persuade Sadr to lay down his arms, provided the U.S. accepts the prime minister's security plan.
But Askari said it was still unclear whether Sadr would meet with the Shiite alliance members.

BoogyMan
01-10-2007, 10:55 PM
Stoner, in all seriousness here, can you explain to me what makes this "the best", or even a good option?

I only ask because in all the time that this surge has been discussed, I have yet to hear anyone describe how it will actually make any difference at all. What we're talking about here isn't a new strategy by any means, we've done it 3 or 4 times before. The only difference was before we took troops from other locations and moved them into Baghdad, this time we're sending them from here at home.

Hey Scott, I would like to drop my 2 coppers in on this one if you will excuse my bargin in to your discussion.

I too believe that we need more men on the ground for a single reason.Â*Â*Despite all the he-said she-said hoohah, we need to get control of the country and once and for all shut down the insurgent factors in order to for an exit to be readily available.

If we send more troops over there for any other reason than to get control of the situation in order to allow for training to be completed then we are fools.

If we up and hit the road without having done so, I do believe that what we will have done is to create a situation where a broader middle east conflict will be innevitable.

My 2 pennies are just as valuable and anyone elses.Â*Â*I hope they are spent wisely.

piratemonkey
01-10-2007, 10:59 PM
Â*Â*Despite all the he-said she-said hoohah, we need to get control of the country and once and for all shut down the insurgent factors in order to for an exit to be readily available.

And you really think that 20k more troops will "get control of the country?"

I really, really doubt that.

lily
01-10-2007, 11:13 PM
Ihave a question here.

The opening post stated Maliki didn't want additional troops - however, it seems even the Iraqi government has different views:



Viper.......the only thing I can say is look at the dates of the article. Maliki changes his mind, depending on the last conversation he's had with Bush, or the wind blows another way.

I'm waiting for tonight. IF Bush says Maliki will match troops sent in, men to men, then this might have a chance. If it's going to be our soldiers fighting alone..........forget it. Then we also have to wait and see if Maliki will actually live up to his word.