Illegals Will Destroy America Unless..........

[Viper2]

Okay, although the big item in the news seems to be the war in Iraq - little is really being said about what I consider a more dangerous and immediate problem - Illegal Aliens.

Yes, I know we can take sides by party affiliation, however, IMHO, this goes way beyond our political views - and yes we will throw our political views at each other - but that's what debating is all about.

First, let me say that I violently oppose President Bush's "guest worker" and the Democrats "Amnesty" programs as they are. This is too damn serious a problem that affects America and Americans in almost every facit of our daily lives.

So, let me start with the obvious - Illegal:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/Illegal

Main Entry: 1il·le·gal
Pronunciation: (")i(l)-'lE-g&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle French or Medieval Latin; Middle French illegal, from Medieval Latin illegalis, from Latin in- + legalis legal
: not according to or authorized by law : UNLAWFUL, ILLICIT; also : not sanctioned by official rules (as of a game)

This simply say it all - and in-as-much as we have Immigration Laws, etc., this shouldn't be the problem we have today.

So, do you agree with "Illegals" running around free as can be, or do you feel stronger actions should be taken to eleviate this problem ??

[sbannon]

Just to offer my two cents worth here, first I don't see this as the End of Days problem that some make it out to be. When I was growing up it was the Irish who were going to overrun the country. At one time it was the black man. In the 80's we were 'turning Japanese'... maybe this situation is different and more extreme, maybe not, but I can't help being a little tired of this dooms-day overrun scenario being fed to me.

As for the "illegals running around free" part, it's nothing new. Vast numbers of established American families (my own included) had relatives who came here illegally and only after a certain period acquired legal citizenship. This isn't a new phenomenon. My great-grandfather came here in the early 1900's and lived and worked illegally for 4 years to establish a home he could then bring his family (my great grandmother and their 12 children) to. When he sent for them and they arrived, he finally "signed the guestbook" with them.

This sort of 'advanced landing' has been common in our history when large groups from specific regions (Ireland, Germany, Eastern Europe and etc.) were migrating en mass to America.

Was it illegal? Certainly, and I'm not trying to diminish that at all. My point though, is that knowing the facts of the past, I just don't see what's happening today as anything new and it doesn't in and of itself pose any greater threat or danger than what's always been the case. I think the reason it's getting so much play is because after 9/11 there's a new fear which has been falsely attached to a large group of non-whites crossing our borders.

If we're really concerned about border security, why don't we better address our northern border first? Or even discuss it publicly? That's the only border we know of for certain that's been crossed by terrorists so far, it would seem to me that we should focus there first. So why haven't we?

Could it be because there's more political play in the southern border? Isn't that just playing politics with our national security? We know Canada is still far too easy for terrorists to gain entry to. They've refused to tighten their entry point security despite our demands. We've identified numerous terrorists and suspected terrorist cells operating and fund raising up there, and as I mentioned we know they've crossed that border before... so what's the real problem here? Is it the southern invasion; or is it really our own leaders who are just rolling the dice with our security for political gain?

[Anti-Racism]

Just to offer my two cents worth here, first I don't see this as the End of Days problem that some make it out to be. When I was growing up it was the Irish who were going to overrun the country. At one time it was the black man.

Could be a successive decline. Definitely our national IQ average is plunging.

Oh well, you'll all see soon enough.

[Alonzo]

So, let me start with the obvious - Illegal:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/Illegal

Main Entry: 1il·le·gal
Pronunciation: (")i(l)-'lE-g&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle French or Medieval Latin; Middle French illegal, from Medieval Latin illegalis, from Latin in- + legalis legal
: not according to or authorized by law : UNLAWFUL, ILLICIT; also : not sanctioned by official rules (as of a game)

This simply say it all - and in-as-much as we have Immigration Laws, etc., this shouldn't be the problem we have today.

So, do you agree with "Illegals" running around free as can be, or do you feel stronger actions should be taken to eleviate this problem ??


And I thought you were going to make an argument. Somehow saying "they're illegal immigrants, illegal means unlawful, therefore they're destroying america" isn't a very compelling argument for anything.

I speed a lot of the time, and speeding is unlawful, therefore I too must be destroying america.

[lily]

This isn't a new phenomenon. My great-grandfather came here in the early 1900's and lived and worked illegally for 4 years to establish a home he could then bring his family (my great grandmother and their 12 children) to. When he sent for them and they arrived, he finally "signed the guestbook" with them.



My grandfather was born on the bhip, while it was docked in Pt. Huron. Set up his farm and the rest is history.

If we're really concerned about border security, why don't we better address our northern border first? Or even discuss it publicly? That's the only border we know of for certain that's been crossed by terrorists so far, it would seem to me that we should focus there first. So why haven't we?

I think the reason we haven't is because Canadians have it pretty good. They're not coming here to work, although after 911, Detroit had a special lane on the bridge for the nurses that did live in Canada to come over here and work. Going to go off topic, and do a little remembering. On 911, we imediately closed the bridges and tunnels. It was warm for September. Canadians walked the bridges and the tunnel offering water and food.

They've refused to tighten their entry point security despite our demands.

I'm not aware of any demands being put on Canada.

.......but I will totally agree, I to am tired of this dooms-day overrun scenario

[sbannon]

I'm not aware of any demands being put on Canada.

.......but I will totally agree, I to am tired of this dooms-day overrun scenario
Lily, it hasn't been front page news often, and at times not making the news at all sadly, but the State Dept. web site often carries/publishes reports on these efforts. And also seems to pull them down when they do get publicity oddly enough?

I'll admit not having looked recently, but just a couple of months ago the state department issued a report that blasted Canada, saying that "terrorists have exploited the liberal Canadian immigration and asylum policies to enjoy safe haven, raise funds, arrange logistical support and plan terrorist attacks".

The fact (and my point) is, there's just no political gain from publicizing and escalating that border problem--just the opposite, it's an embarrassment that we haven't been able to get Canada's submission to our demands--but with that southern border there's fear-mongering to be had. People see large numbers of Hispanics all over (you can't really tell a Canadian just from looking, unless they're in a Mounty uniform), so just tell them that they're coming for your job and bringing drugs for your kids and now you've got a movement (of voters) energized.

[Labrocca]

I like illegal immigrants. I get to pay them less and they don't quit no matter how bad I treat them. VIVA LA MEXICO!

[lily]

I'll admit not having looked recently, but just a couple of months ago the state department issued a report that blasted Canada, saying that "terrorists have exploited the liberal Canadian immigration and asylum policies to enjoy safe haven, raise funds, arrange logistical support and plan terrorist attacks".


Living on the border, I've honestly not heard of this, there are few people that I trust enough not to demand proof of what they are saying, and you are one of them. I will be chking out the website you mentioned, to keep current.

[Stoner]

I like illegal immigrants. I get to pay them less and they don't quit no matter how bad I treat them.Â*Â* VIVA LA MEXICO!


My Mexican works for less than your Mexican http://planetsmilies.net/person-smiley-1142.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

[Anti-Racism]

That's gross, no offense guys. Why not just own slaves?

Immigration creates pluralism, pluralism destroys consensus, and that destruction ruins republics.

This is only one of America's problems however :)

[Buck Laser]

I like illegal immigrants. I get to pay them less and they don't quit no matter how bad I treat them. VIVA LA MEXICO!

Yeah, and that's why there are so many illegal immigrants in the US. I think a lot of the problem would go away if the US spent as much effort tracking down the employers of illegal immigrants as it does going after the wetbacks themselves.

I was born and raised on the Mexican border, so illegal immigrants have been around for much of my life. The border has always been pretty permeable, and except for crackdowns every twenty or thirty years, the free flow of people back and forth has been mostly unremarkable.

There are some who claim that Mexico is using the US as a kind of safety valve instead of dealing directly with its economic problems, and I suspect that there's likely some truth to that. But with worrying about our War Against Iraq and our own economic difficulties, I'm not sure I have much of an idea about how to get Mexico to face up to its own problems, especially when so many Americans are anxious to hire Mexicans so they can mistreat them.

[Labrocca]

That's gross, no offense guys. Why not just own slaves?

Immigration creates pluralism, pluralism destroys consensus, and that destruction ruins republics.

This is only one of America's problems however :)


If I owned a slave I would have to pay taxes on them.

btw...I do hope you all realize I was very much joking. I pay my Mexican immigrants pretty good. lol

[sbannon]

I'll admit not having looked recently, but just a couple of months ago the state department issued a report that blasted Canada, saying that "terrorists have exploited the liberal Canadian immigration and asylum policies to enjoy safe haven, raise funds, arrange logistical support and plan terrorist attacks".


Living on the border, I've honestly not heard of this, there are few people that I trust enough not to demand proof of what they are saying, and you are one of them. I will be chking out the website you mentioned, to keep current.

Lily, I appreciate your trust but would never want to raise doubts with readers here, so here's a link to one such report I've found still online--though it is a few months old, but it'll give you an idea of where on the SD's site to search for these.

http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2005/64346.htm

Keeping in mind that this is a diplomatic report (so stuffed with fluff), when you get to the middle where the actual SD assessment of Canada is located you'll see despite the fluff, we still made a point to mention items such as:

1) The concern over the presence in Canada of numerous suspected terrorists and terrorist supporters. With the example of Ahmed Ressam, the "millennium bomber" who was caught attempting to bring bomb making materials into the U.S., even though he was denied asylum in Canada they let him stay in Montreal for seven years where he used false id to get a Canadian passport.

2) There's a listing of "Other known suspected terrorists in Canada"

3) It's pointed out that Canada is home to the Khadr terrorist family.

4) It's mentioned that Canada passed an Antiterrorism Act after September 11th, but isn't enforcing it with any enthusiasm.

And there's more, but that's enough to make the point I think. These sort of publishings never directly say something like "Canada, you're being bad."--they always say it in that diplomatic round-talk of political mumbo-jumbo, such as "Canada's our good friend...who just needs to do [this and that] to be our great friend" with a smile, but it doesn't take a Brain Scientist or Rocket Surgeon to make sense of it, you just have to be persistent because reading these things is like digging ditches to nowhere sometimes.

[lily]

Thanks sbannon. I see the subtle poke in the ribs, or not so subtle huge lettering, reserved only for Canada.;)

[Viper2]

Consider this, if you would:

http://www.washtimes.com:80/national/20070109-122510-1365r.htm

Illegals become repeat criminals

By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
January 9, 2007

Criminal aliens set free on the streets of America -- instead of being deported after serving their time -- are being rearrested as many as six more times by U.S. authorities, according to a government audit released yesterday.

But the Justice Department's Office of Inspector General said it did not know how many of 262,105 illegals in the audit, who had been charged with a crime and then released, had been rearrested.

Inspector General Glenn A. Fine said that the volume of available files "was too great to search manually and quantify the results" and that investigators instead selected a sample of 100 illegal aliens arrested in 2004 and reviewed their criminal histories for evidence of rearrests.

Mr. Fine noted that although the limited audit did not find any instances of "outright failure" to cooperate with Homeland Security in the removal of criminal aliens from the United States, a review of the 100 criminal histories "produced results that, if indicative of the full population of criminal aliens identified, suggest that the rate at which released criminal aliens are re-arrested is extremely high."

The 91-page audit, which was requested by Congress, said the limited sampling found that of the 100 selected aliens, 73 had an average of six arrests each after being released from custody. They were arrested, collectively, 429 times on 878 charges, ranging from traffic violations and trespassing to drug crimes, burglary, robbery, assault and weapons violations.

The audit found that local jurisdictions "prioritize enforcement of state and local laws, while sometimes permitting or encouraging law-enforcement officers" to work with Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE).

Last year, Congress required an annual audit as part of the Justice Department's State Criminal Alien Assistance Program (SCAAP), which provides federal funding to states and localities for the costs of incarcerating criminal aliens on state or local charges. The program is administered by the Justice Department in conjunction with ICE, which is part of Homeland Security.

During fiscal 2005, Justice distributed $287.1 million in SCAAP payments to 752 state, county and local jurisdictions -- nearly 70 percent of which went to 10 jurisdictions: the states of California, New York, Texas, Florida, Arizona, Illinois and Massachusetts; New York City; and two California counties, Los Angeles and Orange.

The report also said investigators identified an official "sanctuary" policy for two jurisdictions that received at least $1 million in SCAAP funding: Oregon, which received $3.4 million, and the city and county of San Francisco, which received $1.1 million and has designated itself a "city and county of refuge."

In addition, an executive order issued in New York City limits the enforcement of immigration law by local authorities, the report said.

The audit defined "sanctuary" as a jurisdiction that may have state laws, local ordinances or departmental policies limiting the role of local authorities in the enforcement of immigration laws.

The audit also examined the level of cooperation among federal, state and local authorities, but found "conflicting views between ICE and local jurisdictions as to what actions constitute full cooperation."
"Congress did not define 'fully cooperate,' nor did our review of immigration legislation disclose any specific steps that localities are required to take to help effect the removal of criminal aliens from the United States," the audit said.

The report also found that among 164 state and local agencies surveyed:
• 30 jurisdictions do not generally ask those arrested about their immigration status.
• 17 said they do not inform ICE when they have someone they suspect may be an illegal alien in custody. Some agencies said they do not inform ICE about possible illegals in custody because they don't think ICE will respond.
• 18 jurisdictions do not alert ICE before releasing undocumented criminal aliens.

[tony mitra]

The subject heading was: Illegals Will Destroy America Unless..........

One might respond with: .... unless the legitimates do it first. :scared:

Okay, was being a smartass.

[preservanation]

..Unless they all vote GOP.

[davo]

That's gross, no offense guys. Why not just own slaves?

Immigration creates pluralism, pluralism destroys consensus, and that destruction ruins republics.

This is only one of America's problems however :)


That's very true but I'm baffled about why you claim to be an anti-racist when you know this. It's exactly what race-based groups have always said: that civilizations fall when there's too much diversity, and that empires fail because they become corrupted by the "inferior" races.

Note: I'm not PRO racist, but I'm certainly no anti-racist. I believe immigration policies for a country should be decided by the people who live there, not by private profits.

Anyways I can probably give a pretty good prediction of how it's going to end for America:
- Dubya attacks Iran, disruptions to oil supplies, domestic and foreign outrage follows.
- US economy takes a hit and plunges into depression
- Welfare dependents suddenly no longer get their bread and circuses
- Poverty, crime and corruption flourish amidst economic hardship
- Neocons get filthy rich and bugger off to Israel with everyone's money
- Christian Taliban emerges in the United States and does a Spanish Inquisition, shooting everyone not properly devoted to Jesus enough.
- US balkanizes along ethnic and ideological lines.
- Years of extremely crappy government follow.
- China and other Asian countries emerge as the new superpowers in the world.

[HumanBeast]

We definately have to squeeze the immigration flow. I couldn't get three jobs here in Nashville because of them.

[Kyi Yo]

*coughs* Well, you all knew this was coming right?.....:dork: I think you're ALL illegal immigrants and need to go back!:madlaugh:

http://picasaweb.google.com/NDNDancer/Jokes/photo#5116433970116350818

http://picasaweb.google.com/NDNDancer/Jokes/photo#5116434734620529522

[Trish]

Goodness knows I don't have a problem with immigrants. I don't really even have a problem with illegals to some degree. I understand why they come here and I can empathize with that drive. What I have a problem with is 1) the sheer numbers of illegals that are arriving on a daily basis, 2) the lack of desire to assimilate, 3) the demand that this society change to fit them instead of them changing to fit us, 4) the "special services" that the illegals are given. I have a real problem with all that.

I don't believe that anyone not born here has a "right" to be here. I don't believe that just because a baby is born here it should automatically be a citizen and then along with its parents and extended family have the right to stay here. I don't believe that if one is here illegally, one should expect to have everything printed in his or her native language, have special teachers paid for with tax dollars so that his or her children who also cannot speak the language can go to school here. I don't believe that law enforcement should be prohibited from asking for proof of citizenship or informing ICE when an illegal is discovered here. I don't believe that illegals who commit crimes here should ever be released on bail. I don't believe that illegals who are caught more than once here should be freed/deported to come here again. I think they should go to jail. I don't believe that I, a citizen born in this country, should HAVE to speak another language to get hired by a company here that doesn't do international business just so that I can communicate with the laborers.

That's the problem I have with illegals. They may not be "destroying" America - but they are changing America to suit them instead of changing to suit America.