who thinks that there will ever democracy in Iraq?

[Abraham]

I can make the claim that Iraq will not be a democracy any time soon. Any support?

[Newscaster]

You are totally correct.
Iraqis are muslims for the most part and follow the Quorran and Sharia Laws. This has been ingrained in them for centuries and one little war is not going to change a thing. They may think being able to vote is pretty cool and they may walk around holding up their inky fingtertips but when the do go to vote, its the Iman who tells them how to vote and whom to vote for. They will listen to their Iman before anyone else and if one day, the Iman tells them Iraq shall now become a full Theocracy, just watch how fast that will happen.
Look at Afghanistan. We supposedly kicked the Taliban out and oh how the people danced for joy, but the Taliban have returned and are becoming stronger again. Why? Because the Afghanis listen to Imans and are once again making it possible for the Taliban to regain the power they once held. The Middle East is Muslim and just as that wont change, American style government has no real chance in that area with the sole exception of Israel and even their, its not exactly the way we have it.

[ECW]

I knew it would never be a functioning democracy before George Chimpy McFlightpants took us to war there. A culture that has never known freedom cannot handle the responsibility when it is dropped in their laps.

[Newscaster]

Freedom was actually not dumped in Iraqi laps as much as it was shoved down their throat. If the Iraqis truly wanted Hussein eliminated, fine. Do it but then let the Iraqis form the kind of government THEY want. Not what you think is best for them and totally alien to their thinking.

If Bush has not learned that by now, he never will.

[sbannon]

We still hit daily road bumps after 230 years of practice... I don't think nearly enough time has passed to say it's flat out failed yet.

Not that I supported the initial invasion in any way, but the best thing for the Iraqi people now would be for peace to spread and the government that's in place to stabilize. It's just a little early to give up all hope and become prophets of doom.

[Alonzo]

Young democracies are very fragile, creating stable ones is incredibly difficult. Africa and the middle east were all democracies at one point, but when there's violence and conflict they tend to collapse quickly. Colonialism screwed up much of the world.

[Churchel]

I am starting to question whether its going to be a country in the next 5 years.

[ECW]

We still hit daily road bumps after 230 years of practice... I don't think nearly enough time has passed to say it's flat out failed yet.

Not that I supported the initial invasion in any way, but the best thing for the Iraqi people now would be for peace to spread and the government that's in place to stabilize. It's just a little early to give up all hope and become prophets of doom.


Democracy has not taken hold there because of the sectarian divisions that have not been bridged. Too many bad things came down the pike that one group or another cannot forget. Add to that the looting of the armories after Saddam fell and before Coalition troops took control and you have the recipe for civil war. Once they are tired of killing each other, peace may come but it ain't happening soon.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But I see we have a Liberal Negativity Party here.
2. Sure they seem to kill off each other on a regular bases.
3. But look at America, we kill more each day.
4. They have a elected Government, which as long as they stay alive I see it as viable.
5. These elected officials need to take hold of power now.
6. Start the oppression machine.
7. There is no other way to Govern Arabs, you have to oppress them like slaves. or worse, like animals.
8. At some point we will have to break away clean from Iraq.
9. And say to them, "Good Luck, Sink or Swim".
10. This way we can give them the room they need to start the death squads again.
11. I don't say this as to inflame, but just the facts on the ground.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[sbannon]

Gee chess, and I thought my (and ECW's) post was pretty optimistic and positive for the future in Iraq?

Do you even take the time to comprehend what you're reading in other's posts or just skim through looking for anything you can dispute or rant about?

I'm sorry bout that, but I've seen enough of your ignorant predjudices go unchallenged. Here's one, take your point number 7 in the above post:
7. There is no other way to Govern Arabs, you have to oppress them like slaves. or worse, like animals.
Now, replace Arabs with Texans and I'm almost in full agreement.

But wait, I know some Texans (I'm even related to a bunch) and they're pretty good people, so my saying that was really ignorant; not to mention the idea is just plain inaccurate.

Same applies to all groups of people my friend.

[mdickinson]

Sorry bout that,

1. But I see we have a Liberal Negativity Party here.
2. Sure they seem to kill off each other on a regular bases.
3. But look at America, we kill more each day.
4. They have a elected Government, which as long as they stay alive I see it as viable.
5. These elected officials need to take hold of power now.
6. Start the oppression machine.
7. There is no other way to Govern Arabs, you have to oppress them like slaves. or worse, like animals.
8. At some point we will have to break away clean from Iraq.
9. And say to them, "Good Luck, Sink or Swim".
10. This way we can give them the room they need to start the death squads again.
11. I don't say this as to inflame, but just the facts on the ground.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


My god, at least we've got conservative optimism to keep us going!

As far as I'm concerned, if we are ready to accept that they'll "start the death squads" as soon as we turn around, there's not a single reason to spend another second there.

[Churchel]

I am wondering if that since now Iran and Syria are showing solidarity if the attacks in iraq are going to start reflecting more on the US soldiers. It only seems reasonable that after the appeasment killings are over they will go back to hating us.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But if you look at all Islamic Nations they ALL have Death Squads.
2. Its a fact of life for Islam.
3. They pretty much expect it.
4. They have their own Local Death Neighborhood Death Squads.
5. Where if some one wore the wrong cloths, etc, she would be killed immediately.
6. Islamic Religious Laws are Deadly, and all their Laws are based on Death to worthless humans.
7. I can list some for you, because its what I do.
8. If you convert out of Islam, that's Death Penalty.
9. If you say something against their so called alllah, Death Penalty.
10. If you are a Homo, Death Penalty.
11. If you get raped, Death Penalty.
12. If you eat pork, Death Penalty.
13. If your found not praying 5 times a day, Death Penalty.
14. If you use free speech, Death Penalty, Example. Say you spoke out about some old fart who took a 9 year old niece as a wife. (Pedophiles are excepted in Islamic Nations, look where Micheal Jackson lives now.)
15. Holding up a Bank, Death Penalty.
16. Unproven Crimes, Death Penalty.
17. Speaking out against the Government, Death Penalty.
18. There are many more reasons that you could be put to death in a Islamic Nation, I can not list everything.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[mdickinson]

Sorry bout that,

1. But if you look at all Islamic Nations they ALL have Death Squads.
2. Its a fact of life for Islam.
3. They pretty much expect it.
4. They have their own Local Death Neighborhood Death Squads.
5. Where if some one wore the wrong cloths, etc, she would be killed immediately.
6. Islamic Religious Laws are Deadly, and all their Laws are based on Death to worthless humans.
7. I can list some for you, because its what I do.
8. If you convert out of Islam, that's Death Penalty.
9. If you say something against their so called alllah, Death Penalty.
10. If you are a Homo, Death Penalty.
11. If you get raped, Death Penalty.
12. If you eat pork, Death Penalty.
13. If your found not praying 5 times a day, Death Penalty.
14. If you use free speech, Death Penalty, Example. Say you spoke out about some old fart who took a 9 year old niece as a wife. (Pedophiles are excepted in Islamic Nations, look where Micheal Jackson lives now.)
15. Holding up a Bank, Death Penalty.
16. Unproven Crimes, Death Penalty.
17. Speaking out against the Government, Death Penalty.
18. There are many more reasons that you could be put to death in a Islamic Nation, I can not list everything.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas



Hmm...

I didn't understand what you meant by death squads before. I thought you were talking about people wandering the streets just to kill people, but I guess that's your view of capital punishment in Islam. There are some extremists, but your characterization of all Islamic nations in this way is not correct.

Here's an excerpt from http://pewforum.org/deathpenalty/resources/reader/15.php3.

A stereotypical presentation of Islam suggests that it is a conservative, misogynistic, and retributive religion. Even those with only a superficial acquaintance with the subject know better, of course. As in all religions, there are progressive and reactionary currents of thought. Even so-called “Islamic� states differ widely on many aspects of religious doctrine. Thus, in the international debates it is troubling to hear blunt pronouncements affirming that “Islam favors capital punishment,� as if this view meets with unanimous and unqualified support throughout the Moslem world.

…Despite popular impressions to the contrary, Moslem penal law is characterized by a strong undercurrent of clemency and sympathy for the oppressed. Punishment is ordered to be free of any spirit of vengeance or torture.

...

Although essentially all Moslem or Islamic countries retain the death penalty in their domestic law, practice varies considerably from one to another. Some, like Iran and Iraq, are enthusiastic practitioners, while others, such as Tunisia, conduct executions in only the rarest of cases. The religious argument is invoked frequently, yet the diversity of practice would suggest there is little consensus even among Moslems as to the scope of capital punishment. For example, Sudan has taken the position that offenders may be executed for crimes committed while under the age of eighteen, “in accordance with provisions of Islamic law.� Yemen, on the other hand, recently banned the juvenile death penalty, although it was argued that this step was taken “despite Islamic law.� The Libyan Arab Jamahiriya recently informed the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Extrajudicial, Summary, and Arbitrary Executions, Ms. Asma Jahangir, that “the aim of the Libyan society is to abolish the death penalty.�


Other than the extremists, which aren't too dissimilar from some positions taken by Christian nations throughout history, the basic concepts and ideas aren't too far from America's approach.

There's a whole internet full of actual knowledge...free for the taking.

[gpruitt54]

“who thinks that there will ever democracy in Iraq?�

There is a simpler question, one so simple that it goes un-noticed. The question should be “Why should there be democracy in Iraq?�

My question is based on something we learned as children. Simply put, nothing good comes from that which is built on lies, manipulation, and deception. Take an account:

There were no WMDs, but the president says there was.
There was no Yellow Cake Uranium, but the president says there was.
There was no hope of a mushroom cloud smoking gun, but the president says there was.
There was no link to al-Qaeda, but the president says there was.
There was no Iraq link to the Anthrax scar, but the president says there was.

The list goes on and on. Heaping Lies upon lies in order to foster doubt and confusion. Using fear of others and of fellow Americans. These are not the stuff of patriots and heroes. These are the tactics of simple minded fools and tyrants through the ages. Shame that such weakness comes from our leaders. It would have been better to call for the best in us rather than to evoke the base-fear in us. In times of crises, good men, Godly men, and brave men do not stoop to low levels, they rise to the highest levels, and by doing so they inspire us to do great things. Why have we not seen this of our president?

Abraham Lincoln said "A house divided against itself cannot stand." There are the words of greatness. Yet a president has invited and encouraged Americans to be fearful and in fear, he asks us to abandon cherished freedoms that so many have died to preserve.

Shame on us for allowing such men to make us afraid and not brave. There is a definition for those who call the worse in us. What do you think that definition is?

[underdawg]

Bush claimed that our goal was to remove Saddam from power because Iraq had weapons of mass distruction. Saddam is now gone and no weapons of mass destruction were ever found. I think it would be better if we just pull out completely and let the chips fall as they may. We messed up. Republicans kept saying it wasn't about the oil, so if this is true, we should just leave. It is not our oil and we do not need to have military bases there either. We have done enough damage. We do not need new soldiers there to kill more Iraqis. Even when we leave the country may be in chaos for a while, but eventually some sort of government will appear. It might not be the type of government that we like, but at least we they should be able to make that decision for themselves.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

Am I the only one who knows that there already is a democracy in Iraq?

[underdawg]

There is no democracy in Iraq when you need another government there trying to keep the facade of it going.

[Newscaster]

Letws just hope Chess never runs for elective office.

[ECW]

Am I the only one who knows that there already is a democracy in Iraq?


You're the only one here that thinks because you held a few elections where the minority faction refused to participate and the faction that won cannot govern their own country without death squads rounding up and killing the minority faction that that constitutes a democracy.

[CheesyMuslim]

Letws just hope Chess never runs for elective office.


Sorry bout that,

1. But who says I'm not already in elected office?
2. Anythings possible, here in America.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Stoner]

There already is democracy in Iraq despite what the left tries to brainwash us with.

[BoogyMan]

I seem to remember elections where a whole new government was put into power by the will of the Iraqi people.Â*Â*Sounds like democracy to me.

Those on the left who are cheerleading for these efforts to fail should be ashamed of themselves.

[Stoner]

I seem to remember elections where a whole new government was put into power by the will of the Iraqi people.Â*Â*Sounds like democracy to me.

Those on the left who are cheerleading for these efforts to fail should be ashamed of themselves.


Very well put. It's sad to see people (mostly libs) who stop at nothing to tarnish the truth and mislead Americans with their Bush conspiracy theories.

And why do they do that? Over an R and a D.

Very sad.

[underdawg]

If they were truely an independently functioning Democratic government, then why are we still there? The government of Iraq has no true power. Eventhough they are still occupied by the United States, the country is truely ruled by chaos right now. The only reason that the facade of a government still exists there, is because the United States keeps it artificially shielded.

[BoogyMan]

If they were truely an independently functioning Democratic government, then why are we still there?Â*Â*The government of Iraq has no true power. Eventhough they are still occupied by the United States, the country is truely ruled by chaos right now. The only reason that the facade of a government still exists there, is because the United States keeps it artificially shielded.


No-one here other than yourself underdawg has said they were truley fully functioning on their own yet.Â*Â*That doesn't modify the fact that they are a democratically elected government.Â*Â*A government elected by millions of Iraqis who faced death to place a vote for a brighter future.

[Newscaster]

Stoner writes:
There already is democracy in Iraq despite what the left tries to brainwash us with.

Stoner, Democrats and Republicans do not kill each other on a daily basis. Sunnis and Shiites do. And you call that democracy?

[BoogyMan]

Stoner writes:
There already is democracy in Iraq despite what the left tries to brainwash us with.

Stoner, Democrats and Republicans do not kill each other on a daily basis. Sunnis and Shiites do. And you call that democracy?


Hogwash! There is murder in this country every day. According to the FBI Uniform Crime Statistics as reported in September of 2006 the completed year of 2005 saw the national murder rate in the US at an average of just under 6 per 100,000 persons. Considering there are roughly 300,000,000 people in this country that is a staggering statistic. I am sure that those poor souls are not tied to a specific party.

The government of Iraq was elected in a democratic fashion and no amount of spinning can make that go away.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

There is no democracy in Iraq when you need another government there trying to keep the facade of it going.


Completely and totally wrong on your part, I suggest you look up the word in a dictionary.

Iraq is currently a democracy. That's a fact, plain and simple.

[underdawg]

It seems to me that a country occupied by a more powerful country such as ourselves can not be truely seen as an independent country. It was our country that conducted the election process and not by them. We set up the deadline. We determined the rules. It was the U.S. that insisted that they must become a democracy instead of any other form or government. I see their "elected government" as only a puppet of the United States, It has no real power outside the protection of the United States.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

No matter what you think, it is still a democracy.

[ECW]

Stoner writes:
There already is democracy in Iraq despite what the left tries to brainwash us with.

Stoner, Democrats and Republicans do not kill each other on a daily basis. Sunnis and Shiites do. And you call that democracy?


Hogwash!Â*Â*There is murder in this country every day.Â*Â*According to the FBI Uniform Crime Statistics as reported in September of 2006 the completed year of 2005 saw the national murder rate in the US at an average of just under 6 per 100,000 persons.Â*Â*Considering there are roughly 300,000,000 people in this country that is a staggering statistic.Â*Â*I am sure that those poor souls are not tied to a specific party.Â*Â*

The government of Iraq was elected in a democratic fashion and no amount of spinning can make that go away.


Does religion consitute the basis for the murders in this country? It does in Iraq!

If you are one faction, you can be murdered by another faction merely for your religious beliefs. It makes no difference that you are not angry at the other faction or just want to be left alone. You can be murdered for being a Sunni in a Shia neighborhood where you may have lived in peace for 25 years. You can be murdered by the Shia for having a Sunni name like Omar (the name of a Sunni holy man).

Murders in America are not based on religion or any other sort of division. They are certainly not based on one's politics. When one faction enforces ethnic/factional cleansing at the point of a gun, it ceases to be a democracy and, instead, becomes a civil war. Trouble is Chimpy & the Neo-cons haven't woke up to that reality yet. And American troops keep dying because he doesn't get it.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

When one faction enforces ethnic/factional cleansing at the point of a gun, it ceases to be a democracy and, instead, becomes a civil war.


Simply untrue on multiple levels. Factional violence doesn't translate automatically into a civil war, and civil war doesn't automatically translate into loss of democratic process.

Iraq has a functioning democratically elected government, and ergo is a democracy. No matter how much you ignore that truth, it is still the truth.

[ECW]

Iraq's government is not functioning on virtually every level. Their army sanctions death squads to kill Sunnis. Their police operates prisons where they torture Sunnis they capture. Illegal checkpoints allow these illegal operatives to operate above the law. Civil order has broken down and the government not only isn't doing anything to stop it, they are behind it all. And we are training the Shia to "take over" after we leave? Can you say blood bath? Can you say "regional conflict" when the Saudis send troops to protect their Sunni brothers from being slaughtered? I'm not ignoring the fact that three elections were held but all those elections did was set the stage for a civil war within Iraq as the Shia majority takes over and supplies a healthy dose of retribution for Saddam's 25 years of terror against the Shia.

When all is said and done, there will be far fewer dissenting voices to Shia rule because they will have been murdered and the blood will be on our hands because we set the bloody machine in motion. Doesn't sound like much of a democracy to me. Talk to the Red Chinese: they have the same sort of "democracy" in their country.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

Iraq's government is not functioning on virtually every level.


Your straw men can't change the simple basic fact that Iraq is a democracy.

It's simple definitions, irrefutable fact. Iraq has a government, and that government is a democracy.

[ECW]

A government democratically elected that systematically exterminates a section of it's own populace under the guise of religion no longer is a democracy but a theocracy. Simple definition. Irrefutable fact.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

A government democratically elected that systematically exterminates a section of it's own populace under the guise of religion no longer is a democracy but a theocracy. Simple definition. Irrefutable fact.


Not correct at all and certainly not applicable to this discussion.

Repeating straw men and invalid definitions over and over doesn't change the facts. Iraq is a democracy, with an elected representative government. It isn't a theocracy since the government is not run by a religious leader or leaders.

I'm sure you will post another try with more incorrect definitions, but you will still be wrong. Even Wikipedia, as liberal a reference site as exists, agrees with me and calls you wrong.

Iraq = democracy

[ECW]

The religious militia leaders who control most of Iraq and a great deal of Baghdad would be amused at your idealism. Rock on, doode.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

The religious militia leaders who control most of Iraq and a great deal of Baghdad would be amused at your idealism.


But since they are not the government of Iraq (and don't control most of Iraq), they don't really factor in on Iraqs status as a democracy, as every valid reference lists it as.

So keep denying plain, simple, obvious truth. Doing so defines you pretty well.

[ECW]

Being the government that was elected (including Sadr) and controlling the government are one and the same. If you think that the people that got elected won because they were "good citizens" and not an upholder of a particular religious sect, then you are as clueless as Chimpy is about what is going on in Iraq. It's ALL about religion. You and Chimpy can call the government secular all you want but it does not change the truth on the ground and the truth on the ground means that Iraq is a theocracy, controlled by religious leaders that are in power in the government.

[Stoner]

If a doctor ever tells me I'm dying and only have a few months to live I want to borrow a pair of those liberal glasses our democrats wear.Â*Â*Because with those you can twist cold-hard facts around and make them anything you want.

Hell, I could decide to be cancer-free...maybe even decide to give myself super-human powers.Â*Â*

After all, anything is possible with liberal blinders.

This is one of the reasons liberals fail so much in general elections. They don't connect with real people nor reality. You can show them stone-cold facts and they'll shove their fingers in their ears and yell, "La la la la la la la la!"

[BoogyMan]

Does religion consitute the basis for the murders in this country? It does in Iraq!

If you are one faction, you can be murdered by another faction merely for your religious beliefs. It makes no difference that you are not angry at the other faction or just want to be left alone. You can be murdered for being a Sunni in a Shia neighborhood where you may have lived in peace for 25 years. You can be murdered by the Shia for having a Sunni name like Omar (the name of a Sunni holy man).

Murders in America are not based on religion or any other sort of division. They are certainly not based on one's politics. When one faction enforces ethnic/factional cleansing at the point of a gun, it ceases to be a democracy and, instead, becomes a civil war. Trouble is Chimpy & the Neo-cons haven't woke up to that reality yet. And American troops keep dying because he doesn't get it.


ECW, was America a democracy when the practice of slavery was in full swing in the 1800's? Was America a democracy when the KKK was rushing through the South murdering anyone who got in their way? Sounds like ethnic or factional cleansing to me, and you better bet there were elected officials that supported those actions.

Your remarks show little more than a sophomoric desire to tar a president you hate and to twist facts to support that hatred. The government of Iraq was elected in democratic fashion and the country in a fledgeling democracy. Are there problems? Yes. Does that change the democratic fashion in which that government was put into place? No.

[Elrathin]

Well then going by Boogy's and Flea's definition of a democracy, since elections did happen in Iraq, Iraq was already a democracy before the U.S. invaded. It just soo happens that the people of Iraq loved their leader soo much that noone ran or voted against him. :rolleyes:

[BoogyMan]

Well then going by Boogy's and Flea's definition of a democracy, since elections did happen in Iraq, Iraq was already a democracy before the U.S. invaded.Â*Â*It just soo happens that the people of Iraq loved their leader soo much that noone ran or voted against him. :rolleyes:


Horse feathers Elrathin. Show me how the elections that put the current government into place and the "election" that kept Saddam in power are the same.

I cannot wait for your detailed answer to this question.

[Elrathin]

Horse feathers Elrathin. Show me how the elections that put the current government into place and the "election" that kept Saddam in power are the same.

It is a democracy none the less. It may not be the democracy you like, but it was one by YOUR definitions that you gave ECW.

[BoogyMan]

Horse feathers Elrathin.Â*Â*Show me how the elections that put the current government into place and the "election" that kept Saddam in power are the same.

It is a democracy none the less.Â*Â*It may not be the democracy you like, but it was one by YOUR definitions that you gave ECW.


No, its based on you assuming you know what I mean by democratically elected and trying to twist my commentary. When Saddam held his "elections" he was the only candidate as no-one dared to run against him. This is not a democratic election.

In the elections held in a democratic fashion there were multiple candidates and the populace came out and exercised their choice at great personal risk of insurgent attack to try and stop them.

This line of argumentation really is beneath you Elrathin.

[underdawg]

The reason I say that Iraq is not really a democracy is because right now it is not a truely independent country. It can not stand by itself without U.S. involvement. Maybe it will happen sooner or later, or maybe never at all. Right at this minute the country is held together by the United States.

[Newscaster]

Despite the variety of political opinions here, allow me to wish you all, rergardless of party affiliation, a very Happy New Year and the best that 2007 has to offer.
Party On Guys.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

The reason I say that Iraq is not really a democracy is because right now it is not a truely independent country.


So what? It is still a democratic country by definition.

[ECW]

The reason I say that Iraq is not really a democracy is because right now it is not a truely independent country.


So what? It is still a democratic country by definition.


A failed democracy, perhaps, but not a viable one.

[ECW]

If a doctor ever tells me I'm dying and only have a few months to live I want to borrow a pair of those liberal glasses our democrats wear.Â*Â*Because with those you can twist cold-hard facts around and make them anything you want.

Hell, I could decide to be cancer-free...maybe even decide to give myself super-human powers.Â*Â*

After all, anything is possible with liberal blinders.

This is one of the reasons liberals fail so much in general elections.Â*Â*They don't connect with real people nor reality.Â*Â*You can show them stone-cold facts and they'll shove their fingers in their ears and yell, "La la la la la la la la!"


Keep smokin yer weed, doode. Yer making all kinds of sense, especially nonsense.

[J316]

Yes, I think there will be Democracy in Iraq. HOWEVER, if we pull out of Iraq to early, that will completely destroy all that the U.S. has done. I think bush is on the right track with this new budget, perfect to get in and out of the middle east and bring home our troops...He is going to have a hard time with the new congress and senate,though.

[Guitarmitch]

I knew it would never be a functioning democracy before George Chimpy McFlightpants took us to war there. A culture that has never known freedom cannot handle the responsibility when it is dropped in their laps.


I got about this far before I read this post (third for those who are counting), and decided I didnt care to read further. But I guess I am the one dragging down the tone of the debate, right Baron?

[Newscaster]

The fighting now underway in Iraq has nothing to do with democracy or our being in that country. It is sectarian fighting that has gone on for hundreds of years, since long before there was a GW Bush or a Saddam Hussein. This is a civil war between Sunnis and Shiites and always will be and as I see it, a battle that will never be settled.

[Stoner]

There already is democracy in Iraq.

[BoogyMan]

Hey Stoner, don't throw fact into the slobbering jaws of radical hatred!

America can do nothing right, don't you understand that fact?

[/snark mode off]

[attachment=115]

[Stoner]

Sorry, boss. It will never happen again.

[Elrathin]

There already is democracy in Iraq.


Not one that can stand on its own.

[BoogyMan]

Elrathin, everyone I know has already admitted that fact. We are trying to get to a point where it can stand on its own without jerking the rug out from under that democratically elected government. :D

[Newscaster]

There is not Democracy in Iraq now or in the near future. Democracy is a process that must be employed and right now, it is not. You are close now to total anarchy which is nothing like democracy. Democracy will happen when all Iraqis participate together for the furthering of the ideals of democracy and the practicing of the things that must be dont to acgieve it. Until then, dont kid yourself.

Saying you have democracy doesnt make it so.

[Stoner]

Not one that can stand on its own.


As usual you're off topic.Â*Â*In case you missed it I'll copy and paste the title of this thread...ready...here it is...who thinks that there will ever be democracy in Iraq.

Your attempt to change the tone of the topic was weak.Â*Â*Going to have to try harder.Â*Â*Get back with moveon.org and see what they instruct you to respond with.

But good for you to admit that there is democracy in Iraq.Â*Â*I'm slightly proud of you.Â*Â*It's similiar the way my puppy opened its eyes for the first time after I cleaned all that gunk out of it, slapped him on the ass and sent him on his way.

[BoogyMan]

If you have a democratically elected government you have a democracy, no matter how frayed the support for it may be.

It is a fragile democracy that could fall in the blink of an eye, but it IS a democracy.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Iraqi_voters_inked_fingers.jpg/800px-Iraqi_voters_inked_fingers.jpg

[Newscaster]

Ink stains on your finger to prove you have voted is very nice but so what. If democracy at NOT at work in Iraq.....if Iraqis continue to kill other Iraqis then all the ink stains in the world will do you no good. I personally do not believe that the Iraqis understand what democracy is....they still follow sharia law as as long as they do that....kiss democracy goodbye.

[Elrathin]

As usual you're off topic. In case you missed it I'll copy and paste the title of this thread...ready...here it is...who thinks that there will ever be democracy in Iraq.

And in case you didn't get the hint, it isn't going to last with sectarian violence and an insurgency. Oops I guess I hit a nerve with you when I spoke the truth of what is going on instead of idiotic conservatives blowing smoke up the peoples ass. Oh is the insurgency in the last throes yet?


Get back with moveon.org and see what they instruct you to respond with.

Lay off the bong and get back with FreeRepublic since they tell you what to think.


But good for you to admit that there is democracy in Iraq. I'm slightly proud of you. It's similiar the way my puppy opened its eyes for the first time after I cleaned all that gunk out of it, slapped him on the ass and sent him on his way.


Too bad the Idiotic Conservatives are patting themselves on the back over Iraq's "Democracy" while the population is dying by sectarian violence and an insurgency. Something that took the administration almost 2 years to even admit was happening all the while commenting that the insurgency was in their last throes. What pathetic idiots conservatives can be.

The only thing you can say is that they have a democracy. That is like saying "Hey that tornado didn't destroy the city, because there is still one house left standing". It doesn't mean squat to say they have a democracy if it isn't going to last.

So have fun playing your word games, I am sure it will be much comfort to the Iraqis family and friends currently dying by insurgents and sectarian violence to know they have a democracy, yet cannot even find work for fear of them or their family being killed.

[Newscaster]

I would love to know what background Stoner has to allow him to make the comments he does.

[BoogyMan]

Too bad the Idiotic Conservatives are patting themselves on the back over Iraq's "Democracy" while the population is dying by sectarian violence and an insurgency. Something that took the administration almost 2 years to even admit was happening all the while commenting that the insurgency was in their last throes. What pathetic idiots conservatives can be.

Wow El, that was out of line, don't you think?

[BoogyMan]

I would love to know what background Stoner has to allow him to make the comments he does.

It's called freedom of speech. All Americans, not just those who hold left of center ideologies have access to it.

[Elrathin]

Wow El, that was out of line, don't you think?


Yes, I do think the administration blowing smoke up people's asses about the condition of Iraq all this time until recently is out of line all the while conservatives are patting each other on the back for it.

[BoogyMan]

Wow El, that was out of line, don't you think?


Yes, I do think the administration blowing smoke up people's asses about the condition of Iraq all this time until recently is out of line all the while conservatives are patting each other on the back for it.


BDS, never mind. I had hoped for a substantive discussion.

[Newscaster]

Boogeyman, dont lecture me about Freedom of Speech. Freedom of speech is not a license to spew nonsense. And one would think that if you are going to speak out, you know what you are talking about.

[BoogyMan]

Boogeyman, dont lecture me about Freedom of Speech. Freedom of speech is not a license to spew nonsense. And one would think that if you are going to speak out, you know what you are talking about.


Yes, one would think that if you are going to speak out, you would know what you are talking about. These are words you might think long and hard upon and hold yourself to the very same standard.


I would love to know what background Stoner has to allow him to make the comments he does.

The arrogance, gads.

[Elrathin]

BDS, never mind. I had hoped for a substantive discussion.


Instead you got the truth, continue to pat yourselves on the back for all I care if you wish. The job is far from finished and unless it is a STABLE democracy it doesn't matter one bit in the long term.

Getting people to SAY they want democracy is one thing, getting them to stop the sectarian violence and work together as Kurd, Sunni, and Shiites all while fighting an insurgency is a whole different problem that is yet another thing this administration did not think through before toppling a government.

Who pays the price this administration's mistakes? The soldiers on the ground in Iraq and the Iraqi civilians pay the price with their lives.

And for the record, I would be GLADLY and WHOLEHEARTEDLY be willing to eat crow for months if I was wrong about Iraq and they do make it work. I just don't think I'll see that day unfortunately.

[Stoner]

sectarian violence

That's like the 38th time I've heard him use that term. Al Franken has him by the grapes.

[Elrathin]

sectarian violence

That's like the 38th time I've heard him use that term. Al Franken has him by the grapes.


Funny, Bush has said the same thing. Does Al Franken have Bush by the balls too?

[BoogyMan]

Instead you got the truth, continue to pat yourselves on the back for all I care if you wish. The job is far from finished and unless it is a STABLE democracy it doesn't matter one bit in the long term.

Did you not read my commentary Elrathin? I just said that the democracy there was fragile and could fall at any minute and that we would have to work to stabilize it.

[Elrathin]

I just said that the democracy there was fragile and could fall at any minute and that we would have to work to stabilize it.


It's not OUR work to stabilize it. It is the Iraqi people's work right now, they are the only ones that can end the violence by working together. That would require Sunnis, Shiites, and the Kurds working ALL together, that just isn't happening on a grand scale. No amount of U.S. troops is going to change that.

[MAP2010.wireless]

I can make the claim that Iraq will not be a democracy any time soon. Any support?


You are right, Iraq is nothing like what happened here when The U.S.A started. They will never have our point of view, but I hope they have something close. We should not give up because we think they can't be just like us, this is a type of war that is not easy to win because Iraq must change their ways and how they run Iraq. We come to the U.S for Freedom, they did not start this war we did.

Mark

[Newscaster]

Boogyman, care to compare?

[BoogyMan]

Compare what Newscaster?

[BoogyMan]

I just said that the democracy there was fragile and could fall at any minute and that we would have to work to stabilize it.


It's not OUR work to stabilize it. It is the Iraqi people's work right now, they are the only ones that can end the violence by working together. That would require Sunnis, Shiites, and the Kurds working ALL together, that just isn't happening on a grand scale. No amount of U.S. troops is going to change that.


It IS our job though to try and get it to the point at which it CAN be stabilized by those who are of a mind to do so in Iraq.

This line of argumentation still doesn't change the fact that there is a democratically elected government in the country that was put in place by Iraqis who at great personal risk voted this government into existence.

[J316]

6. Start the oppression machine.
7. There is no other way to Govern Arabs, you have to oppress them like slaves. or worse, like animals.


Some arabs are okay. the terrorists are the ones that need to be oppressed. Extreamists are the ones we need to worry about

[Newscaster]

Boogey, you wouldnt understand.

But let me point to one thing that I see as quite ironic. During past administrations following the end of WW2, people would ask the rhetorical question......Why must America be the world's policeman? Its a valid question and one that has never really been answered.
Now, you say it is up to the United States to see that Iraq gets to a stablizing point. Why is it up to us? Because we caused the chaos that is in Iraq at this moment? Maybe its our job because we feel guilty? Simply stated......Why must America be the world's policeman? Especially when our popularity around the world is at a very low ebb and Bush's so-called "coalition of the willing" has morphed into a coalition of the unwilling. In the world of crime, police dont go into a den of thieves without backup. Our potential backup has decreased to dangerously low numbers.

[Elrathin]

In the world of crime, police dont go into a den of thieves without backup. Our potential backup has decreased to dangerously low numbers.


Good point.

And to add, why should the rest of the world help out when we ourselves said we can do it ourselves? I think the world is kinda letting us choke on the arrogance of our administrators that got us into this war. And after our actions, who can blame them?

[BoogyMan]

Boogey, you wouldnt understand.

Again, this is pure arrogance after asking me to compare and I ask to compare what.

But let me point to one thing that I see as quite ironic. During past administrations following the end of WW2, people would ask the rhetorical question......Why must America be the world's policeman? Its a valid question and one that has never really been answered.

Now, you say it is up to the United States to see that Iraq gets to a stablizing point. Why is it up to us? Because we caused the chaos that is in Iraq at this moment? Maybe its our job because we feel guilty? Simply stated......Why must America be the world's policeman? Especially when our popularity around the world is at a very low ebb and Bush's so-called "coalition of the willing" has morphed into a coalition of the unwilling. In the world of crime, police dont go into a den of thieves without backup. Our potential backup has decreased to dangerously low numbers.


Why is it up to us? That one is pretty obvious, we helped to create the situation on the ground in Iraq. We now need to help resolve the situation there.

[Newscaster]

Gentlemen, I would love to debate you know, but I have an appointment to get too and just dont have the time. Next time....okay?

[BoogyMan]

Gentlemen, I would love to debate you know, but I have an appointment to get too and just dont have the time. Next time....okay?


I will look forward to it Newscaster. Have a great day! :D