Two Moms and a Dad in Ontario

[slappy]

Ontario judge rules that mom's same-sex partner is child's second mom. Divorced dad retains parental status. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070104/wl_canada_nm/canada_parents_ca_col_3)

I have no major problem with this, simply because it adds another responsible adult to the list of people upon whom this child is now entitled to depend. Presumably the number of parents now possible under Ontario law would be four in the case of joint custody awards involving two parents who each remarry (unless and until this gets knocked down on appeal, of course).

[Stoner]

That kid is going to need some serious therapy.

[AlonzoMourning23]

That kid is going to need some serious therapy.


SO it would have been better for the kid if his real dad was denied parental status?

[bobbylien]

Its really not a big deal.

[Buck Laser]

That kid is going to need some serious therapy.

I dunno but what he might be OK so long as none of the parents are Stoners. You can grow some pretty weird attitudes that way.

[Professor]

The biological father, named on the boy's birth certificate, is a friend of both women and is taking an active role in the child's life.

"It is contrary to (the child's) best interests that he is deprived of the legal recognition of the parentage of one of his mothers," Justice Marc Rosenberg wrote in the ruling, which did not name the three parents or the child.

"Perhaps one of the greatest fears faced by lesbian mothers is the death of the birth mother... Without a declaration of parentage or some other order, the surviving partner would be unable to make decisions for their minor child."

The two women, who have been together since 1990, told the court they did not want to adopt the child because it meant the father would lose his status as a parent.


Clearly there was much thought that went into what was best for the kid. The biological parents are still on good terms and everyone is still talking. To hold off on adopting in order to not shut someone else out of your child's life shows that there is a good relationship.



He added that the court found the family to be a very loving one and that A.A. had met all the criteria of being a loving mother.

"She read the bedtime stories, put the Band-Aids on his fingers, cleaned his runny nose, had taken him off to school," said Jervis.


Stoner, I'm failing to see where he'll need therapy, unless her bedtime stories are about the boogyman. Clearly she is a loving mother.

[Thirdparty]

Its really not a big deal.


Actually, it is, which are some of the unforeseen consequences of gay marriage people don't figure out.

In this case, everyone got along, but what if they don't? You are opening a whole pandora's box of legal issues, custody issues, parenting, etc.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

It's in Canadia, who cares? The kids already messed up.

[slappy]

In this case, everyone got along, but what if they don't? You are opening a whole pandora's box of legal issues, custody issues, parenting, etc.


You're right that this raises custody issues, at least on the face of it. However, I wonder if the custody issues are any different from the case of the stepdad who legally adopts his wife's kids. I don't see any major extra wrinkles beyond that.

[Thirdparty]

In this case, everyone got along, but what if they don't? You are opening a whole pandora's box of legal issues, custody issues, parenting, etc.


You're right that this raises custody issues, at least on the face of it.Â*Â*However, I wonder if the custody issues are any different from the case of the stepdad who legally adopts his wife's kids.Â*Â*I don't see any major extra wrinkles beyond that.


Well, let's see. Straight Couple A divorces, and they have two kids. Mom marries a lesbian partner, and they file for custody of the kids.

The judge decides in favor of the lesbian couple, despite the fact that the straight father was a great dad and has every right to at least joint custody.

However, in the name of PC, the judge decrees that the straight father has no rights in the issue.

Despite the kids's wishes. They are then placed with lesbian parents.

Now, tell me those kids won't have a few anger issues? In addition to not being with a father figure?

[slappy]

You've got a lot more on the scale there than just the notion of providing parental rights and responsibilities to a gay partner.

[Thirdparty]

Exactly my point. It is a complex issue, and one that will have repurcussions amongst children. That is why these things should not be undertaken on a whim.

[slappy]

That's not quite what I meant. The issue of gay partner parental rights is one thing. All of the extra facts you threw into your hypothetical do complicate your hypothetical, but I don't see how they complicate the issue itself.

Your hypothetical said that the dad gets no custody rights despite being a great father. Yet, there's no reason that I've seen to fear that the other parent will get screwed over in this way. So why toss that onto the scale? You say the gay mom gets custody despite the children's wishes, but what has that got to do with granting parental rights to a gay partner?

I agree that the kids in your hypothetical will have anger issues, but it's because you gave them a judge who seems to hate fathers. If there's a logical connection between the treatment of their dad and the rights granted to the mom's partner, I'm afraid I don't yet see it.

[Thirdparty]

What I am saying , slappy, is that kids have enough challenges today without throwing traditional marriage out the window and throwing in gay parenthood. It is not fair to the kids who suffer because of parents confusion.

[Elrathin]

What I am saying , slappy, is that kids have enough challenges today without throwing traditional marriage out the window and throwing in gay parenthood. It is not fair to the kids who suffer because of parents confusion.


Yes and the same thing could be said about a white family raising a black kid or a black family raising a white kid. These things aren't illegal to do, yet it does present problems for the child in many cases like this.

[Thirdparty]

No, Elathrin, because although race issues are always present in those cases, and they do present challenges, you are comparing race to behavior. A child doesn't have to have two moms or two dads in a mixed race marriage.

Many of my fellow black friends have wives that are white or other cultures, and there are challenges, but at least there is a mom and dad in the house, rather than two moms or two dads.

[Elrathin]

Many of my fellow black friends have wives that are white or other cultures, and there are challenges, but at least there is a mom and dad in the house, rather than two moms or two dads.


Sorry but I disagree and I am not alone, even adoption agencies are leary to place a white child with an ALL black family and vice versa. So there is obviously some troubles that come across.

My point being is that there are ALWAYS hurdles in a family. A child with a handicapped mother is going to be different than a family with a healthy mother.

There is no such thing as an ideal family, because an ideal family is different, even a family with a mother and father. Out of all the children I have seen raised by gay couples, I find NO reason not to allow it.

This court ruling I have a problem with because the father is still in the picture, however, it still doesn't change my mind that gay couples are quite able and capable of raising children just fine.

[slappy]

What I am saying , slappy, is that kids have enough challenges today without throwing traditional marriage out the window and throwing in gay parenthood. It is not fair to the kids who suffer because of parents confusion.

I'm skeptical about the harm suffered by children of gay parents, but that's not really the issue here. The child in the Ontario case already had a gay parent before the decision was rendered. All the judge did was put a second gay parent in the mix. I'm doubly skeptical that a second gay parent inflicts significantly more harm on a child than the first did, especially when the court will undoubtedly inquire, as it clearly did in this case, whether the second gay parent was already acting in the role of parent before the application was ever brought to court.

[Thirdparty]

I don't think we can know the effect as gay parenting is a relatively new cultural issue. The jury is still out.

[Pookie]

Where is the problem where the child is in any danger or having issues? I might have missed something here.
Hugs,
Pookie

[Thirdparty]

The child is not being raised with a father AND a Mother, or a Mother AND a Father. The child will have issues by virtue of having gay parents

[Pookie]

How so?
Hugs, Pook

[AlonzoMourning23]

The child is not being raised with a father AND a Mother, or a Mother AND a Father. The child will have issues by virtue of having gay parents


You're never going to present evidence, are you?

[Pookie]

I am politely asking again, how so?
Hugs,
Pook

[Elrathin]

The child is not being raised with a father AND a Mother, or a Mother AND a Father. The child will have issues by virtue of having gay parents


Thirdparty, that is not an absolute. The child may not have issues or he may. But then again, children have issues even growing up with a Mom and a Dad, let alone a single parent. Are you going to legislate that single parents can't raise their kids since there is not a mother or father sometimes?

[bobbylien]

Old traditions die hard, let people like thirdparty believe whatever they want. Theres no reasoning with them. We will get what we want in time anyways, it might not be fair but soon enough gays will get their parental rights. I have seen no study that says children who grow up in gay families are more likely to have problems or anything like that. I've known a few kids who have grown up with two moms and they are perfectly fine, or at least no more screwed up than a kid with divorced parents.

[Elrathin]

We will get what we want in time anyways, it might not be fair but soon enough gays will get their parental rights.

Well they already have their parenting rights. It is not illegal for gays to raise children. That is why the subject of gay marriage and people saying "Oh think of the poor children" is so funny because it is not illegal for gays to raise children so that point is already shot down.


I have seen no study that says children who grow up in gay families are more likely to have problems or anything like that. I've known a few kids who have grown up with two moms and they are perfectly fine, or at least no more screwed up than a kid with divorced parents.


I have only seen studies on the "what ifs" I have not seen a study where it says Gay Parents A, raising children was found to be lacking.

I have only seen "what ifs"

[Pookie]

I've heard stories about children, having been raised by abusive foster parents, becoming successful and well-adjusted adults. Why is this particular child different and how so?
Hugs,
Pookie