Gays in the military

[Cobra]

Are you for or against the don't ask don't tell policy.

I'm personally against because I think if you’re qualified for the job why should you be discriminated against based on your sexuality. I also think the reasons against getting rid of it are a bit exaggerated, people will get used to the idea in time even if it causes some short term problems and the benefits would eventually outweigh the negatives.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

Don't drop the soap in the shower!

[lily]

Darn, Cobra........I screwed up. I voted on the topic "Gays in the military", so I voted for. I dont' see what difference it makes if you're gay or not.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

Everybody's gay in a foxhole.

Wait... That's not right...

[Cobra]

Darn, Cobra........I screwed up. I voted on the topic "Gays in the military", so I voted for. I dont' see what difference it makes if you're gay or not.
Lol I was going to write it that way butn I thought someone was bound to nail and say gays are allowed in the military if they don't let anyone know there gay/be in gay relationships so changed it to the don't ask don't tell policy. Sorry bout that.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

The thing is you can be for or against gays in the military and no matter which side of that issue you are on you can be for or against "don't ask don't tell" as well.

"don't ask don't tell" is a pretty average clinton type solution to an issue, which is to say it's not very good.

[Thirdparty]

I vote no. I don't care what people do in private, and if they can fight and pass all the tests I can, fine, but I personally don't need to be distracted in combat if the guy next to me is scoping me out.

[Cobra]

Why would he be scoping you out in combat, you'd think people in combat would be focused on other things besides sex. Now scoping you out while not in combat I could see…..

[Thirdparty]

Why would he be scoping you out in combat, you'd think people in combat would be focused on other things besides sex. Now scoping you out while not in combat I could see…..



I just said it is a distraction I don't need. I just got back from a tour in the sandbox, my second, and I can tell you any gays over there keep it quiet. That is why "don't ask don't tell" works best. I don't want to know, and political agendas don't belong in firefights.

[Waffletush]

Why would he be scoping you out in combat, you'd think people in combat would be focused on other things besides sex. Now scoping you out while not in combat I could see…..

Well, believe it or not, one of the reasons for a long time there was an argument against having women in combat arms positions is that when it came to crunch time in a firefight, a good portion of males said they would be more interested in defending the well-being of the woman (because she is a woman, not a fellow solider) than worrying about the fight around them.

(and this was from a 60 minutes show a few years back, so no, I don't have a link)

Sitting in a fox hole, in tight, cramped proximity, one straight, one gay, may make people nervous enough NOT to focus on the mission at hand.

You never know what goes through people's minds.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

Why would he be scoping you out in combat, you'd think people in combat would be focused on other things besides sex.


How little you know about people...

[Cobra]

How little you know about people...

Lol I only know myself and that would not be the first thing on my mind if I was in the middle of a war zone trying not to get shot.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

How little you know about people...

Lol I only know myself and that would not be the first thing on my mind if I was in the middle of a war zone trying not to get shot.


most of the time in a war is not actually in combat, but it does raise the human libido to be exposed to danger or tension.

[firefox]

Be as gay as you want to be, just keep it to yourself. On the other hand, coming out of the closet shouldn't get you fired, given that the military is a government institution.

[underdawg]

There has been gays in the military as long as there has been wars. Thirdparty brought up the point that he was worried that he might be distracted that someone might be scoping him out. I am sure people get scoped out all the time. I am sure women get scoped out all the time, but I am sure they don't let that keep them from doing their job. Yeah, at first if you are working with someone who is gay, there is always the possibility that he might find you attractive. But as a military person you also realize the term fraternization. The army can let people be openly gay yet can impose fraternization clauses that would make it a crime to have sex with anyone from the same platoon, company, or what ever.

Just knowing that someone is a homosexual doesn't mean that he is going to be staring at you or whatever. People would get used to it and then it would be a non issue. As a soldier you learn discipline more so that you would in the civilian world. The things you would fear are just reasonable.

Also as an openly gay soldier, there is no chance of blackmail. The danger of being in the closet is that if the enemy discovered your secret, you could be blackmailed into divulging secrets you would not otherwise do if you lived a truthfull life. I do not think it is in the best interest of the military to encourage certain soldiers to live a lie and tell lies to where they go when they are off post.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

There has been gays in the military as long as there has been wars.


There have been rapists in schools as long as there have been schools.

People in the military have enough to worry about without being hit on by Sargent Bruce in the middle of a deployment. The military is volunteer, and it has the right to discriminate, let the soldiers choose. They will vote overwhelmingly for a "no gays" over the silly "don't ask don't tell".

[underdawg]

Well FBM there is no way to rid the army of gays period. They are either going to be undercover or out in the open.

[Oedipus Rex]

I'm against the policy because I think we should ask and then either throw them out of the service or deny their enlistment.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

Well the whole idea of "don't ask don't tell" is that they remain hidden by choice, right?

It means if you admit to being gay, out you go.

[Oedipus Rex]

Well the whole idea of "don't ask don't tell" is that they remain hidden by choice, right?

It means if you admit to being gay, out you go.




That's right. Every soldier should be compelled by personal convictions to their duty with honor by not lying about who they are. Gays should not be in the Armed Services.

[underdawg]

I was a gay soldier in the Ranger Bn. When I joined they asked me if I ever had sex with a man. I truthfully answered no. Then they asked if I was a homosexual. I didn't think that the army had privilege to my private thoughts. I did lie on that question, but I felt it was something that was none of their business, and nothing they could ever prove.

I did my job and was a very good medic. I remained a virgin all through my army enlistment and lost my virginity to a woman near the end of my term of service. I know there were probably many like me that served this country and no one ever knew.

There is no way that the military can weed out homosexuals. We look like heterosexuals, most of us act just like heterosexuals, some even get married and have children. You might not like homosexuality, but there is no way to rid them from the military. You either have a choice of knowing who they are or not knowing.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

From your post, you were a hetrosexual when in the military.

[underdawg]

No, definitely not. I had some serious crushes on lots of guys and they never had a clue.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

No, definitely not. I had some serious crushes on lots of guys and they never had a clue.


So you had same sex sex in the military?

[underdawg]

No, I said I was a virgin up until I had sex with a woman. You do know about crushes don't you? You can lust after someone without physically doing anything.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

without physically doing anything.


If you didn't do anything, then you weren't gay at that time.

[underdawg]

FBM you can't be serious. You do understand there is a difference between a homosexual act and homosexuality? I can have sex with a woman and still be a homosexual. A prisoner can have sex with a man and still be a heterosexual.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

If you didn't have sex with a man there is really no proof you were homosexual at the time.

[underdawg]

Definitions of homosexuality on the Web:

sexual desire within the same sex.
www.willdurant.com/glossary.htm
Sexual relationships with individuals of the same gender.
www.sexualcounselling.com/Glossary/Glossaryh.htm
Being attracted to or aroused by members of the same gender. See Sexual Orientation.
allpsych.com/dictionary/dictionary2.html
a sexual attraction to (or sexual relations with) persons of the same sex
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Homosexuality may refer to:* A sexual orientation characterized by aesthetic attraction, romantic love, and sexual desire exclusively or almost exclusively for members of the same sex or gender identity.* Sexual relations with another of the same sex or gender regardless of sexual orientation or self-identification.* A sexual identity or self-identification, which may or may not imply exclusively homosexual behavior or attraction.

I am not going off topic again but from the definitions of homosexuality shown above. I was most definitely a homosexual because of my attraction to the same sex. Being attracted to someone does not mean that you have to have physical sex with them.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

If you didn't have sex with a man there is really no proof you were homosexual at the time.

[Elrathin]

If you didn't have sex with a man there is really no proof you were homosexual at the time.


Bullshit, so what do you call someone that has not had sex with a woman or man then?

By your definition you can't call them a heterosexual and you can't call them a homosexual, which is bullshit.

If you have homosexual thoughts towards the same sex, you are a homosexual. Not everything is about sex.

[lily]

Well, after another two pages of strawman argument, how about getting the discussion back on topic?

I would think that knowing that your fellow soldier sitting in a foxhole with you, or sleeping in the same tent would be better than having to guess about it distracting you.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

I would think that knowing that your fellow soldier sitting in a foxhole with you, or sleeping in the same tent would be better than having to guess about it distracting you.


Your assumption that you spend significant time being distracted by trying to guess who is gay seems not too well connected with reality.

Would you care to explain the logic that brought you there?

[Thirdparty]

There has been gays in the military as long as there has been wars. Thirdparty brought up the point that he was worried that he might be distracted that someone might be scoping him out. I am sure people get scoped out all the time. I am sure women get scoped out all the time, but I am sure they don't let that keep them from doing their job. Yeah, at first if you are working with someone who is gay, there is always the possibility that he might find you attractive. But as a military person you also realize the term fraternization. The army can let people be openly gay yet can impose fraternization clauses that would make it a crime to have sex with anyone from the same platoon, company, or what ever.

Just knowing that someone is a homosexual doesn't mean that he is going to be staring at you or whatever. People would get used to it and then it would be a non issue. As a soldier you learn discipline more so that you would in the civilian world. The things you would fear are just reasonable.

Also as an openly gay soldier, there is no chance of blackmail. The danger of being in the closet is that if the enemy discovered your secret, you could be blackmailed into divulging secrets you would not otherwise do if you lived a truthfull life. I do not think it is in the best interest of the military to encourage certain soldiers to live a lie and tell lies to where they go when they are off post.


Have you ever been in a unit training or in combat, Dawg?

[underdawg]

I wasn't in combat at the time, but I think the 2/75th Ranger BN would qualify as a combat unit.

[Stoner]

The 'don't ask don't tell' policy is fine.

[MAP2010.wireless]

i change my vote, they should be open so that they can have there own place just like men and women have a place.

Men
Gay Men
Women
Gay Women

Women need their own place and so do Gay Men and Women.

I can tell you I would not feel right to have a gay guy in the same dorm, just like women would not feel right with me in their dorm.

Mark

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

ijust like women would not feel right with me in their dorm.

Mark


Wow, is that an opening!

*bites tongue*

[Professor]

I don't see the issue. It's like not having blacks or Jews in the army, what's the problem?

I've shared a room with a lesbian, it's not big deal. Just because someone is homosexual doesn't mean they are a diseased mad dog in heat.

[Buck Laser]

i change my vote, they should be open so that they can have there own place just like men and women have a place.

Men
Gay Men
Women
Gay Women

Women need their own place and so do Gay Men and Women.

I can tell you I would not feel right to have a gay guy in the same dorm, just like women would not feel right with me in their dorm.

Mark

Try telling that to my daughter, who was in an integrated dorm in her first year in college at Grinnell College, back in 1983. She made friends in that dorm who remain lifelong friends. Several of them married each other, including a gay couple as well as straight couples. Her freshman roommates have been guests in our home for over twenty years, and we look forward to visiting them as much as she does.
Mark, I think you've condemned yourself to living in way too narrow a world.

[Professor]

i change my vote, they should be open so that they can have there own place just like men and women have a place.

Men
Gay Men
Women
Gay Women

Women need their own place and so do Gay Men and Women.

I can tell you I would not feel right to have a gay guy in the same dorm, just like women would not feel right with me in their dorm.

Mark


Actually depending on how you behave and what your expectations were I am okay with it. I've shared a bed with both girls and guys. When there's only one bed and no one wants to sleep on the floor that what happens. People can sleep in the same building, room and bed without having sex. Those of you who are married, do you have sex every night?

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

Those of you who are married, do you have sex every night?


Close to it, I hope my wife never finds out!

[Elrathin]

Close to it, I hope my wife never finds out!


Ah those conservative values coming out again I see.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

Close to it, I hope my wife never finds out!


Ah those conservative values coming out again I see.



It's one area where I am very liberal!

[Professor]

Close to it, I hope my wife never finds out!


Ah those conservative values coming out again I see.



It's one area where I am very liberal!


Most people tend to me more liberal in these matters.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

BTW, I'm now a liberal, so I have changed my stance on this. I still thinks gays should not be in the military, I think they should be preachers and priests, so they can tear down the evil church!

Frock gay Cocks!

[Thirdparty]

I wasn't in combat at the time, but I think the 2/75th Ranger BN would qualify as a combat unit.


Glad you have served. I have done two tours in Iraq, just back and healing up.