Immigration is the news of the day

[Labrocca]

Seems like all the news channels are really covering the Immigration Issue heavily. I am pretty upset personally cuz I think there is bullcrap motivations behind most of it. I think a lot of bigotry is involved. I am usually not one to throw out the race card but honestly I know too many Mexicans that work damn hard here for little wages and their bosses are getting rich, houses are getting built, and restaurants are making money.

I think this whole debate started with "border security" and has moved out of the clouds and directly into "illegal immigration".

Well imho make it easier for them to be legal and for jobs to hire them. Tax them, teach them english, and generally help them help us.

[Churchel]

I was listening to Fred Thompson on hannity and colmbs. This is a balancing act where if we make it too easy we will have 24 million next year.

I am all up for them getting paid a living wage, but unfortanutely the company owners will simply cut staff, so the (made up number) 6 million workers will become 3 million workers. We need stronger labor laws to protect this and prevent this from happening.

I have been listening to rabble about this for the past 4 years and it seems the "redneck republicans" we all up for tossing them out until the administration weighed in on it, and of course they forgot who roofed their house and built their patio last year.

[E-Z-B]

If companies would pay livable wages, then Americans would be "willing to work these jobs". A single parent working full-time for minimum wage makes $10,712/yr. As a result, you have illegal immigrants flooding our country, where we must subsidize their hospital costs, extra police enforcement, school education, prison expenses, etc. So we're not only paying our share for America's society, but also Mexico as well. The system's broken, and needs fixed. And I'm looking at this not as a bigotry issue, but as an economic issue.

[sbannon]

Our capitalistic system depends upon immigrant workers to function properly. There are certain jobs which can't have what we American's consider 'fair wages' attached to them. For example, the agricultural industry. First, it's seasonal work. If you look at other seasonal industries such as construction then you see that American's demand more than just minimum wages to even take those jobs.

But beyond that, if the farming industry that uses migrant workers was forced to begin paying even just minimum wage then Americans could expect to begin paying $6 or more for a head of lettuce, $2 per ear of corn, $4 for a grapefruit and so on. The agricultural industry has a hair-thin profit margin as it is, if you raise their expenses by 400% or 500% then you have to accept that the prices of produce will rise equally.

Now, back to the seasonal aspect. If you do make these fair paying jobs for Americans only, then what you'll have--in addition to outrageous produce prices--are a million or more Americans who only work part of the year and then depend on taxpayer's money to sustain them during the off-season months. That could become more of a drain than providing for basic and emergency services for immigrants is now.

Bottom line, it's cheaper and better for everyone to have immigrant workers to some extent. What's happened recently though and is cause for real concern is that other industries which haven't traditionally depended upon migrant workers have seen an opportunity to cut costs by replacing Americans with illegals.

It's a complex problem. We want (and need) them for certain things, but when they move into other areas it creates a real economical and social problem that scares people. That fear naturally turns ugly and often gets expressed in the form of bigotry.

[KrAzY3]

I could write about 50 multi-page papers on this issue. I wrote something a while ago and it is so long I'm not even sure if I'll post it.

I'll hit on a few things quickly.

A: Legal immigration is very, very difficult. Any system that allows for "easy" illegal immigration without making legal immigration easier is insulting to law abiding people and rewarding to those that have no regard for our law.

B: Mexicans are not the only people willing to do certain jobs. This is a myth perpetuated by people who either have a agenda or haven't thought through it clearly. We literally turn away boatloads of immigrants from all over the world that would love nothing more than to do the same labor Mexicans do. The problem is, we look the other way while Mexicans sneak in, as well as employ them yet other immigrants typically can't even come into the country. As it stands now, we give a massive advantage to Mexican immigrants over immigrations from European, Asian and African countries. That is not fair and it goes against the "melting pot" style of immigration that has worked for us.

C: Border security is a issue. Likewise, I don't think we can reward lawlessness. Fix some of the problems, secure the border some more and most importantly do not reward illegal behavior. Then and only then should you think about giving the illegal aliens a second chance at legal immigration (which I believe should be made easier). To allow them to cut in line on legal immigrants is of the utmost disrespect to our legal immigrants.

[Labrocca]

I am getting a pool built in my backyard. It's costing me $40k ....most the workers are Mexican (I am in Las Vegas). I can assume some may not be legal. Now if I have to pay $40k for this now imagine what I would have to pay if US or union workers wanted to do the job!!! Sorry but Americans can't afford to hire other Americans for most jobs. We already import cheap chinese/taiwanese products all day long. I see the work that immigration workers do as the same thing. I always see the Mexicans working VERY hard. They are some of the hardest working immigrants ever. They clean our houses, wash our cars, do our dishes, rake our lawns, and so much more.

There is one clear advantage I see if we stop illegal immigration. We would lose weight. Yeah we might have to get off our butts and do more.

[KrAzY3]

I am getting a pool built in my backyard. It's costing me $40k ....most the workers are Mexican (I am in Las Vegas). I can assume some may not be legal. Now if I have to pay $40k for this now imagine what I would have to pay if US or union workers wanted to do the job!!! Sorry but Americans can't afford to hire other Americans for most jobs.


If we allowed legal immigration from other developing countries you would see others with impressive work ethics. Look on some of those boats we turn away, you're telling me the starving guy from a war torn country would refuse to do the job for as much if not less? Have you seen the work that Eastern European workers or Asian workers do? Watch the Discovery Channel, these guys work on some of the biggest projects on earth, complex tasks and many times they are working for very little. Once again, the idea that only Mexicans can or will do certain tasks is a joke. We're just keeping everyone else out.

Once again, my problem is not with Mexican immigration it is with the fact that we keep immigrants from other countries out. For every legal immigrant from ANY country (including Mexico) we have a illegal immigrant from Mexico. That isn't a melting pot, what we have is a cultural invasion. The end result is that the immigrants become a lower class segregated community. It is not coincidence that the children of these hard working people drop out at a rate of 50% and it is not coincidence that both legal and illegal Mexican immigrants put huge burdens on our social programs.

If we were able to both stem the flow of Mexican illegals and increase the flow of legal immigrants from other developing countries everyone would benefit. You would have more diversity, Mexicans would be less likely to be pegged exclusively for low paying labor jobs and in the end everyone would be better off. As things stand now, when/if we provide amnesty to the 10 million illegal aliens, we will undergo a political and social catastrophe.

If you think our politicians are wary of the Latino vote now, imagine how they will act when over ten million are added to the voting numbers (mind you once they gain citizenship they will likely bring over their families so that ten million could double or triple, literally doubling the number of Latinos in America). They would put even more pressure on politicians, which would begin with forcing them into leaving the back door open and could end with Aztlan. If you think we have a lot of trouble with people not understanding English, toss ten million or so more Spanish speaking people into the population and see what happens. You will end up with Spanish speaking only schools and a segment of the population that is unlikely to ever learn English. And finally, because they are low income adding over ten million people to our social programs (if they give them amnesty they will not have the same requirements legal immigrants do, which include not getting public aid for ten years) could cripple them. You think Social Security is in trouble now? Imagine what it would look like with ten million more people who never paid in.

Now, once again the resolution to all of this is simple. Stem illegal immigration and increase legal immigration. It will promote diversity and while yes, you will still have your hard working low income immigrants from all over the world... you will also be giving them a better chance to integrate into our country and to become productive citizens in the long run. What we have now is a invasion and it will end poorly.

[KrAzY3]

By the way, here's a story I find interesting:
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/8439483/detail.html

Now, consider what is happening here. Children of immigrants showing patriotism towards Mexico and Americans responding by showing patriotism to America. The resolution? Well forbid patriotism of course!

If we didn't let Mexicans in, at such a disproportionate rate this wouldn't happen. The reason they identify themselves as Mexicans is because they haven't integrated. They haven't integrated because their density is such that there is no great incentive to. Believe me, patriotism is one of the first victims of the cultural invasion... it will not be the last. Our strength and unity as a nation is at stake.

If the children of immigrants at this school were broken up into Asians, Latinos, Africans and Europeans do you think this would even be a issue?

[Labrocca]

Wow Krazy...now that's a constitutional problem right there. Banning patriotism in an American school. WTF

Also I agree about all immigrants being given better access to the US but currently the problem is focused on Mexicans so that's where I focus. Honestly I see no way to actually stop their immigration. I think congress should do a 1 year study on immigration and it's impacts. There needs to be better info imho about the economic and social problems. I am sure there is some info out there but how dated is it? Anyone have any good reads for that?

[sbannon]

KrAzY3, I agree with much of your perspective. However, part of the cause for this becoming such a problem lies with American businesses in recent years being more accepting of hiring illegals for positions which aren't traditionally held by migrant workers.

If the opportunities weren't provided in this way, the number of illegals crossing the borders would drop dramatically. Nobody's going to undertake the risks and burdens to come across for nothing.

This doesn't mean I'm absolutely siding with the illegals nor am I taking an anti-big business stance. I'm just saying that there's a relationship between companies providing illegals with work and the growing number of illegals who come across to get it.

[KrAzY3]

I think congress should do a 1 year study on immigration and it's impacts. There needs to be better info imho about the economic and social problems. I am sure there is some info out there but how dated is it? Anyone have any good reads for that?

I've watched a lot about it, more so than I have read. From what I've heard along with 20 billion a year leaving for Mexico, we have to earmark billions each year to provide services for illegal Mexicans. I have a few things book marked, I'll dig some stuff up. I'm not saying deport the illegals now! I'm saying start fixing the problems and do not reward illegal immigration (when they even discuss amnesty illegal immigration increased by 20%).


This doesn't mean I'm absolutely siding with the illegals nor am I taking an anti-big business stance. I'm just saying that there's a relationship between companies providing illegals with work and the growing number of illegals who come across to get it.


I agree, I'm not even trying to "blame" illegals. I think they are victims in the process. I've lived in another country for over a year, I know the difficulties with adjusting to a new culture and a new language and the incentive to just stick with your own language and ways. I know the hardships in Mexico. I just feel we have a process that rewards breaking the law and gives Mexicans a unfair advantage over would be immigrants from all over the world. I believe one of the three resolutions to the problem is to clamp down on companies hiring illegal aliens as well as restricting public aid to illegals. I don't want to get rid of immigrants, I want to encourage them to come in the "front door" rather than the "back door". I think it would benefit everyone involved in the long run.

[Labrocca]

Oh I know we give the immigrants BILLIONS each year...but don't you think many do billions in productivity. I know in Vegas and NYC that most construction workers were Mexican. Those industry are notorious for hiring 'day workers'. Would we even have a housing boom if the new houses were 10-30% more expensive? Or simply were not built as fast. I am a big fan of mexican workers. I seen my share of them work. I have hired a few for quick jobs around my house like mowing the lawn, shoveling snow, or helping when I moved. They are hard working like no other class of immigrants that I know of. They are very willing do to menial tasks and hard labor. Which is something other immigrants (and Americans) don't want to do.

[KrAzY3]

Oh I know we give the immigrants BILLIONS each year...but don't you think many do billions in productivity. I know in Vegas and NYC that most construction workers were Mexican. Those industry are notorious for hiring 'day workers'. Would we even have a housing boom if the new houses were 10-30% more expensive? Or simply were not built as fast. I am a big fan of mexican workers. I seen my share of them work. I have hired a few for quick jobs around my house like mowing the lawn, shoveling snow, or helping when I moved. They are hard working like no other class of immigrants that I know of. They are very willing do to menial tasks and hard labor. Which is something other immigrants (and Americans) don't want to do.


I think the short term gains are evident, it is the long term costs I am worried about. As I said, one of my main problems is the fact that legal immigrants have to go through so much and we keep so many would be legal immigrants out. As I alluded to, some of the greatest construction projects in the world have been done by low wage Asian and Eastern European workers. The problem I see is that only Mexicans get these chances in America. Any mentality that says Mexicans are harder working than people from other developing countries is a stereotype that has no basis in reality. We just have no compass because the only illegals from developing countries we are likely to encounter are Mexicans.

I've worked with illegal immigrants. And yes, usually hard working. But as I said in my CAG post many do not speak English and very few will ever move on to anything greater. Sure, the guy working the broiler was hard working, but he didn't speak a word of English, was not very competent and he has 9!!!! Children... 9! That is a problem because every one of those kids is going to go to public school or get no education at all. Most likely at least 4 of those will become drop outs. It is the long term consequences that I'm worried about. It is simply the fact that Mexicans have been able to immigrate so freely (while others have been excluded) that they have created a segregated low class in America. If you want a example, look at the long term affects of slavery. Sure, economically in the short term the math worked. Guy had cotton picked for next to nothing... the long term consequences? We're still paying for it. We forced many black people in America into slavery, gave them poor education and little to no wages and we put them into a hole (and kept them there) for a very long time. The social impact is something we are still feeling.

The Mexican illegals problem is similar to me because for most of them no other chances will arise. They're forced into a lower class lifestyle and their children grow up lower class, and become drop-outs and are beholden to jobs Mexicans are expected to do and you get a problem that will take decades to dig out of. Back when we had slavery, one of the reasons we fought over the issue was because of economic impact. I mean, hey take away all those workers and farming could practically shut down right? It is the same thing I'm hearing now... yes, Mexicans work these jobs willingly but they are given limited opportunities and the language barrier can create a problem every bit as bad as the problems that arose due to slavery if not more so. As I said, what we are doing has the potential to make Aztlan a real place. A large, disgruntled population of Mexican immigrants will eventually tear at the unity of our nation. We will all bear some of the blame...

[Labrocca]

I think many of your arguements could have been used for the Chinese when the railroads were being built. Immigration tends to be a topic every so often. How did we deal with the Chinese immigration, the Italians, and the Irish? Everyone at some point had a chance to migrate here. Currently it's the Mexicans because their own government is crap and they know it.

This idea might be radical but I think we should just annex Mexico. Let's break it up into states like New Texas, Old Mexico, Cancun (of course) or whatever. After Mexico we can take Canada. :-)

[KrAzY3]

I think many of your arguements could have been used for the Chinese when the railroads were being built. Immigration tends to be a topic every so often. How did we deal with the Chinese immigration, the Italians, and the Irish? Everyone at some point had a chance to migrate here. Currently it's the Mexicans because their own government is crap and they know it.


See, you're actually hitting right onto my point.
I have no problem with immigration. The Chinese, Italians, Irish, Germans, French, Korean, Japanese, etc... They made our country great. But you see, while we did import a lot of Chinese, we imported the Italians and Irish and so on right along with them. That is the melting pot. Now, the doors to these immigrants are closed. Believe you me, Mexico is not the only poorly run country. Many, many more would love to come here but we keep them out.

The problem I have is with it being exclusively Mexican immigrants. It is two-fold. Many illegals to not even identify themselves as Americans. Even if their children become Americans, their children often do not identify themselves as Americans. Part of that is simply with the fact that they are here illegally, it attracts a certain element and builds a certain mentality.

Secondly, all the immigrants from all the countries melted together to make America. I'm part French, Germany, Irish, Native American... hell I don't even know it all and that is part of what makes this nation great. We are not a nation of Chinese, Italians and Irish we are a nation of Americans. With slavery, we started importing one group of people exclusively. We started labelling them and expecting certain things of them and they become the backbone for America. At great expense to everyone. If slavery had not been exclusive to one race, as horrible as it was the recovery had been much quicker. It was hard for black people in America to advance themselves, they had been working for free, who's going to pay them equal wages now? Same thing with Mexicans in my mind. We have stereotypes and expectations and so on, and there is nothing to break this up. We don't have other nationalities mixed in to break it up, we do not have hard working Russian immigrants and hard working Indian immigrants and so on because for the most part we don't allow them into the country.