* Pope Prays With Muslims: Huge Mistake *

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But I believe that having the Pope pray towards Mecca was a mistake.
2. I know why he did it, to quail the Muslim outrage, but I don't agree with it.
3. Sure Mecca is nothing at best, but I just sense it as a concession that need not be applied.
4. He said he was sorry about how his words were taken wrongly, when he quoted some text from some other man.
5. What the text said was true, and look at their reaction.
6. They started threaten to murder the Pope, which was part of the text, said something like, "The only thing that came from Islam is murder."
7. It self proves itself, just make mention of it, and it reveals itself.
8. Now he has stooped to their level, in order to reach out to them.
9. I do not agree.
10. I do hope he did ask for Jesus to not lay it as his charge, and understands just why he did it.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[bobbylien]

4. He said he was sorry about how his words were taken wrongly, when he quoted some text from some other man.
5. What the text said was true, and look at their reaction.
Some of the radicals acted that way, their reactions to his comments were by no means speaking for every muslim.

"The only thing that came from Islam is murder."

Thats not even close to what he said. And if you are going to criticize Islam for some of the things its followers and leaders did in the past why not take a look at some of the things the catholic church has done throughout history. If you look at the histories both Islam and Christianity you will see that much more suffering has been brought about by christians.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. Not radicals bobby, just everyday Muslims, kids, women, old men, etc.
2. I saw a lot of it on tv.
3. You can't stand the truth so you repaint it, with flowers.
4. Won't work bobby.
5. and the Pope groveling to the Muslims isn't wise.
6. He is trying to be the peace maker, I know.
7. But they don't respect Christianity.
8. So how does him praying in the blue mosque change things for any body?
9. It is finished, so I can't advise him after the fact, just wished he would of asked me first.
10. That whole story of how others suffer by Christian hands more than Muslims is hilarious!

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Professor]

Chess, are you taking about this:

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/01/world/europe/01pope.html

Pope Prays in Turkey With Muslim and Orthodox Leaders
By IAN FISHER

ISTANBUL, Nov. 30 — Pope Benedict XVI, who spurred waves of anger among Muslims just two months ago, stood Thursday in silent prayer, facing Mecca, beside a Muslim prelate in one of the world’s most important mosques.

The image of two men in white — the 79-year-old pope and Mustafa Cagrici, the chief of religious affairs for Istanbul — under the ornate domes of the Blue Mosque sealed a trip in which Pope Benedict repeatedly underscored his desire to reconcile Christians and Muslims.

How much of that goal he achieved here is unclear, after the deep anger over a speech criticized as equating Islam with violence. But Mr. Cagrici proclaimed the start good, with Benedict becoming only the second pope in 2,000 years known to have visited a mosque.

“Spring will not arrive by a single swallow,� he told the pope. “But more swallows will arrive, and we’re going to enjoy spring in the world all together.�

The two men exchanged nearly identical gifts of paintings of doves as signs of peace, a coincidence that seemed to amuse the pope. In turn, he told Mr. Cagrici, “With the help of God, we must find the way of peace together, for the good of humanity.�

But even with the symbolism of the mosque visit and a more diplomatic style, Pope Benedict showed Thursday that many of his basic concerns about the relationship between Christianity and Islam, as well as between West and East, had not vanished.

Twice on Thursday, the last day of his visit to Turkey, he referred to the “Christian roots of Europe� — long one of his themes, and one that has provoked some anger as seeming to minimize the contributions of others who now live there, especially the growing Muslim population.

He went further in a joint declaration with Bartholomew, the Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople, of referring also to the Christian roots of Turkey — a historical fact, with the Byzantine church based here for more than a millennium, but a declaration that seemed to run the risk of offending his Muslim hosts.

On Thursday he again seemed to endorse Turkey’s entering the European Union — repeating the good-will gesture he made on Tuesday, his first day here — but he linked the step to a hope for specific progress in respecting the rights of minorities here. Turkey’s small population of Orthodox Christians complains of official harassment and bureaucratic obstacles that have prevented its members from operating freely.

Of the European Union, the pope wrote in his joint declaration with Patriarch Bartholomew, “Those engaged in this great project should not fail to take into consideration all aspects affecting the inalienable rights of the human person, especially religious freedom, a witness and guarantor of respect for all other freedoms.�

“In every step toward unification,� they wrote, “minorities must be protected, with their cultural traditions and the distinguishing features of their religion.�

Finally, he repeated a theme from the speech that caused the negative reaction in September in Regensburg, Germany, about his worry about violence in the cause of religion, though this time without mentioning any religion by name.

“Above all, we wish to affirm that killing innocent people in God’s name is an offense against him and against human dignity,� he and the patriarch wrote in their statement.

In all, the pope has seemed to toe a careful line of not backing down in substance — with the exception of cautiously blessing the progress of Turkey toward membership in the European Union — while presenting a more open, warmer face to an Islamic world that now deeply distrusts him.

The pope’s spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, said the September speech, however painful, had helped open a new vein of dialogue between Christians and Muslims. “Regensburg bore a positive fruit, in a certain sense,� he told reporters after the pope’s visit to the mosque.

Before Benedict’s visit, John Paul II became the first pope known to visit a mosque. It is usually reported that he did so first in Damascus in 2001, though a Jesuit priest active in interfaith dialogue said recently that the first such visit was actually in Senegal in 1992.

Benedict’s relations with Muslims were only one facet of the trip, and for the Vatican not the most important one in the long run. On Thursday, Benedict continued what he considered his main task here, to help heal the 1,000-year rift with the world’s 220 million Orthodox Christians.

For 40 years the two churches have been engaged in halting talks toward reuniting, and on Thursday the pope attended an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, and he and Bartholomew traded speeches that expressed hope for future negotiations toward unity.

Bartholomew is the spiritual head of the world’s Orthodox Christians, though not with the same power the pope holds over the world’s billion Catholics. The patriarch called the pope’s presence in Turkey part of the “unwavering journey toward the restoration of full communion among our churches,� which he said was God’s will and command.

“May it be so,� Bartholomew said.

Benedict’s twin goals of overcoming enmities, old and new, between Christians and Muslims and among Christians themselves, could not find a more apt or complicated stage than Istanbul, a fact that seemed particularly vivid in the final day before he travels back to Rome.

Here the dramas of two millenniums of conflict, distant but very real, play out perhaps as in no other place, endowing the pope’s visit with deep symbolic value — and presenting endless dangers for offense.

Before the pope visited the Blue Mosque, he toured Hagia Sophia, the present structure of which was built in the sixth century. It was the seat of the Byzantine church, which split from Roman Catholicism in 1054. After the Ottoman Turks defeated the Byzantines in 1453, the church was turned into a mosque. Ataturk, founder of the modern, secular Turkish state, turned it into a museum in 1935, making it neither Christian nor Muslim.

Hagia Sophia was closed to the general public during the pope’s tour, and quiet except for a handful of stray cats that scampered across the ancient marble. Many Turks were watching Benedict carefully to see if he would pray. Pope Paul VI got down on his knees when he visited in 1967. Though Pope Paul had permission, he outraged many Turks, who felt he was subtly claiming the building back for Christianity.

But Benedict played very much the tourist, merely nodding and asking questions as he stopped at an alcove that displayed the church’s split identity. Images of the Virgin Mary and the Christ child, in a ninth-century fresco, looked down from a dome to walls covered with Arabic calligraphy citing the names of God and the Prophet Muhammad.

After his tour the pope walked across the plaza — under the tightest security, with helicopters overhead and riot-equipped police officers with shields and tear gas — to the Blue Mosque, built in the early 17th century by Sultan Ahmed. The sultan’s goal was also part of the competition between religions, to prove that Muslims could outdo Christians, even in the majesty of their buildings.

Sabrina Tavernise and Sebnem Arsu contributed reporting.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But yes.
2. Thanks for bringing in the site.

Regards,
SirJameosfTexas

[Professor]

So? What's the problem?

[Elrathin]

So? What's the problem?


There is none.

[NortheastCynic]

In fairness, I don't believe the Pope should have made concessions either, and I do not believe that the Muslim COMMUNITY [NOT every individual Muslim] is "moderate" and Chess is right in pointing out their violent reaction to, uh, everything that offends them.Â*Â*Any group that responded to a cartoon satirizing them as violent with riots cannot be taken seriously, sorry.

-NC

[AlonzoMourning23]

Northeast, the cartoon issue was often secondary. Many times peaceful protests were infiltrated by a group of extremists or youths. When the youths got into the mix they sometimes just started rioting for fun more than anything else. I remember one article where they interviewed a couple of kids who were rioting, they didn't even know what the original protest was about.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. The problem is simple.
2. The Pope lowered himself, to pray towards Mecca, which is pagan.
3. They have a black stone embedded on the corner of the square building, they believe its got some sort of religious power ie. Idol.
4. Its bad to pray towards Mecca, in hope for a stone to hear you.
5. I know why The Pope did it, but I don't agree with it.
6. There is little hope for Islam, and its sad a leader of the Church would go to their place of worship and pray as they do, towards a black stone.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[AlonzoMourning23]

Chess, with that definition of idol then catholics (and the pope) are idol worshippers as well.

[BoogyMan]

In fairness, I don't believe the Pope should have made concessions either, and I do not believe that the Muslim COMMUNITY [NOT every individual Muslims] is "moderate" and Chess is right in pointing out their violent reaction to, uh, everything that offends them.Â*Â*Any group that responded to a cartoon satirizing them as violent with riots cannot be taken seriously, sorry.

-NC


That exact reaction by the less than moderate side of the Muslim community has caused me toÂ*label them members of the religion of perpetual rage.

[lily]

I'm confused here.......people are upset because the pope prayed in a Mosque? Well, that give me a lot of hope that people will stop starting wars over religion.

[NortheastCynic]

No Lily, people are upset that the Pope prayed in a Mosque to appease the Muslim community, which takes itself waaaaaay to seriously. It's not just praying in a mosque, it's the reason why he's praying in a mosque.

-NC

[lily]

The image of two men in white — the 79-year-old pope and Mustafa Cagrici, the chief of religious affairs for Istanbul — under the ornate domes of the Blue Mosque sealed a trip in which Pope Benedict repeatedly underscored his desire to reconcile Christians and Muslims.

How can this be a bad thing, Cynic? Sure everyone can hold a "grudge" about something and others can appease as you say........but some where, some time it has to end. If people say he did this just to make "peace", where is the bad in that?

[NortheastCynic]

It sends the message that the Catholic Church will react favorable to violence, where's the positive in that?Â*Â*I'm all for peace [which is impossible with organized relgion interacting the way it is...relax religious people, I believe in God and Jesus, and all that good stuff, but organized religion, like gov't, is naturally oppressive and corrupt] but not if it means bending to the demands of a violent group of people.

-NC

[AlonzoMourning23]

No Lily, people are upset that the Pope prayed in a Mosque to appease the Muslim community, which takes itself waaaaaay to seriously.Â*Â*It's not just praying in a mosque, it's the reason why he's praying in a mosque.

-NC


Pride and principles can be a wonderful thing and lead to great success. People like MLK and Gandhi are examples of that. But those same things can also lead to disaster and failure. Dubya and Mugabe are examples of that.

The latter is more common than the former when it comes to international politics. I'd rather have a leader that knows when pride and principles cause more harm than good.

[Elrathin]

No Lily, people are upset that the Pope prayed in a Mosque to appease the Muslim community, which takes itself waaaaaay to seriously. It's not just praying in a mosque, it's the reason why he's praying in a mosque.

-NC


You see it as appeasement, I see it as the Pope trying to reach the people.

The Pope's message says it all, but it seems people forget that.

“In every step toward unification,� they wrote, “minorities must be protected, with their cultural traditions and the distinguishing features of their religion.�

“Above all, we wish to affirm that killing innocent people in God’s name is an offense against him and against human dignity,� he and the patriarch wrote in their statement.

I think people need to pay more attention to the Pope's message rather than how he decided to pray.

[NortheastCynic]

You see it as appeasement, I see it as the Pope trying to reach the people.

The Pope's message says it all, but it seems people forget that.
Yes, I see it as appeasement, that's my whole point. What he said is irrelevant for the simple fact that offenses against human dignity will continue to happen regardless of what he, or anyone else says. Great message, moot point.

-NC

[lily]

Cynic...........you see it as sending a message that the Catholic church reacts favorable to violence. I see it as a peaceful and holy jesture........so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Now........organized religion is a whole 'nother topic!

[Elrathin]

What he said is irrelevant for the simple fact that offenses against human dignity will continue to happen regardless of what he, or anyone else says. Great message, moot point.


Murders will always happen as well. Does that mean we shouldn't try to send out the message that killing is wrong and just sit by and let it happen?

Even if his message and gesture only reaches ONE person to stop them from killing it was worth doing and trying for. Better than doing nothing.

[NortheastCynic]

Cynic...........you see it as sending a message that the Catholic church reacts favorable to violence. I see it as a peaceful and holy jesture........so we'll just have to agree to disagree.They don't call me NortheastCYNIC for nothing. :P

Now........organized religion is a whole 'nother topic!
I may just have to start another thread, see you there.

Murders will always happen as well. Does that mean we shouldn't try to send out the message that killing is wrong and just sit by and let it happen?That's not what I'm arguing Elrathin. I'm not saying the argument is wrong, I'm saying that going to a Mosque to say it is an obvious attempt at appeasement, do you agree or disagree?

Even if his message and gesture only reaches ONE person to stop them from killing it was worth doing and trying for. Better than doing nothing.I disagree, it's the same mindset as negotiating with terrorists. The Pope quotes a former Byzantine Empire calling Islam violent, Muslims get violence, the Pope comes a running to pray and talk of interfaith relations. This is appeasement, plain and simple and I don't like it, nor am I optimistic enough to believe that his visit stops any killing...but that cannot be proven one way or another so it too is a moot point.

-NC

[Elrathin]

I'm saying that going to a Mosque to say it is an obvious attempt at appeasement, do you agree or disagree?

I disagree. Now if he went to a Mosque where there was only terrorists, you may have a point, but not all Muslims are terrorists nor are all Muslims violent. Reaching out to just one person to calm a rage is worth it to me. I believe he was reaching to the people with his gesture and message.


This is appeasement, plain and simple and I don't like it, nor am I optimistic enough to believe that his visit stops any killing...but that cannot be proven one way or another so it too is a moot point.

Well as I said above, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one because I don't see it as appeasement.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But The Pope lowered himself, into a position of weakness.
2. And I do not agree.
3. His attrition won't earn him goody points with Islam.
4. And I hope that Gawd can over look it.
5. I am sure he asked Gawd to wink at it.
6. Its not as thou he didn't inflame them, with what he said, which is very easy to do.
7. He can't be at fault for what another man said about how Muslims are deadly.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[mumin]

Hello.

I'm a Muslim and I must say that it is quite obvious that what the Pope did in Turkey was insincere. His true views about Islam came in focus in Germany and now we know how to engage this Pope (if to deal with him at all).

Muslims have a general distrust of the Turkish government and its supporters since Turkey is an ardent supporter of secularism (read: over-secularism and suppression of religious freedom, and a virtual obsession with European culture). Also, a non-Muslim performing his prayer facing Makkah is doing nothing to his benefit.

Also, "chesswarsnow", he didn't simply quote the Byzantine emperor without reason. In context, the quotation was offensive and if it was directed towards, say, Protestantism, they would have been offended as well. The violent reactions are unacceptable, though, and are usually the result of a few people who egg on a group of protesters. They also occur in usually poor countries where people aren't very well educated. As someone stated before, some people involved in the protests do not even know what they are protesting. They simply join in the rabble-rousing because it is a spectacle.

I find it really offensive that you make false accusations so matter-of-factly about Islam, such as us praying to a black stone. We do not pray to the stone. The stone has no serious significance and it would make little to no difference if the stone wasn't there. We only kiss the stone because a caliph and companion of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) saw the Prophet (pbuh) kiss the stone. Nothing more, nothing less. The only thing we do with the stone (it is a meteorite) is kiss it and it is only to emulate the Prophet (pbuh). We do not worship it, nor do we worship the Ka'aba. The Ka'aba has been destroyed and rebuilt time and time again. We do not hold it in such esteem as you may hold the crucifix or whatever. Islam is completely monotheistic. Our declaration of faith proclaims the oneness of God.

The Ka'aba is simply a marker of direction. It unifies the Muslim community (the 'Ummah) by giving a common direction of prayer. Islam is true monotheism (not trinitarianism) and it does not endorse idolatry (unlike the various statues and icons that litter your churches and cathedrals)! Islam doesn't even have a symbol, such as a cross. (Contrary to popular belief, the crescent moon is not endorsed in the Noble Qur'an or in the life and teachings of the Prophet (pbuh) but was adopted after the conquest of Constantinople/Istanbul.)

I never liked this Pope, as he has only destroyed bridges that Pope John Paul II built.

I also find it hilarious that you attribute violence to Islam and fail to look in a mirror. Catholicism has been the most violent faith since Christ. The Crusades, the Inquisition, not to mention the various quarrels within the Catholic community, with multiple people declaring Popehood and then the consequent declaration of heresy, followed by open warfare. Many things that people commit in the name of Islam are against Islam and are simply politically motivated. Otherwise, I can attribute the black slave trade to Christianity or the KKK or the Nazis to Christianity. You know what most white supremacists American groups seek? A white, CHRISTIAN America. Are their actions and beliefs religiously motivated? Hardly.

Here's something by one of our sworn "enemies", the Jews (note the sarcasm):
http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery09262006.html

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But welcome to the debates mumim.
2. You will not get any respect from the Great CWN.
3. And you will get a load of criticism.
4. I am sure this will go both ways.
5. As I have already stated, Muslims won't accept what the Pope did, it was less than futile.
6. And done in weakness, and gains no goody points from anyone in Islam.
7. IE. Huge Mistake.
8. And yes the Muslim do worship the Black Stone, otherwise it wouldn't be there.
9. No matter who first kissed it.
10. It is believed to be a stone come from the moon, which ties into the crescent and star emblem, that hangs over most mosques.
11. I point this out because its so obvious, not to inflame, because it won't take much to inflame the most civilized Muslim.
12. It doesn't matter if your a brain surgeon who brings in 10 million a month, all Muslims will go berserk when confronted with the truth.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[lily]

Mumin, please don't be discouraged from posting more. Some here, even when presented with facts won't accept anything different than they are bainwashed to believe. I for one found your post very informative.

[mumin]

Sorry bout that,

1. But welcome to the debates mumim.
2. You will not get any respect from the Great CWN.
3. And you will get a load of criticism.
4. I am sure this will go both ways.
5. As I have already stated, Muslims won't accept what the Pope did, it was less than futile.
6. And done in weakness, and gains no goody points from anyone in Islam.
7. IE. Huge Mistake.
8. And yes the Muslim do worship the Black Stone, otherwise it wouldn't be there.
9. No matter who first kissed it.
10. It is believed to be a stone come from the moon, which ties into the crescent and star emblem, that hangs over most mosques.
11. I point this out because its so obvious, not to inflame, because it won't take much to inflame the most civilized Muslim.
12. It doesn't matter if your a brain surgeon who brings in 10 million a month, all Muslims will go berserk when confronted with the truth.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

1. Thanks. :)
2. Oh well. I tried. :( I see modesty isn't something you are familiar with.
3. Always welcome and I will answer as long as you reciprocate (which you haven't done).
4. Hopefully. :D
5. Yes, I agree. Those who accept it are what may be considered 'moderate' by those outside Islam but on the fringe by the majority of Muslims.
6. Yes, I agree.
7. See #6.
8. I guess that you worship the cross, then? I mean, I can't drive past a church that doesn't have a cross on it or in it or in many cases, a statue of Jesus (pbuh) or Mary (pbuh) on it or in it. I mean, they wouldn't be there if you didn't worship them, right?
9. Hey, we also have the footprints of Abraham (pbuh) beside the Ka'aba. I never knew I was worshiping Abraham (pbuh) all this time!
10. No, it is considered to be a rock from the heavens, a meteorite. The moon was incorporated after the conquest of Constantinople. It was a symbol of Mary (pbuh) in Constantinople, I believe (if I recall correctly).
12. I remember watching this show 'Trading Spouses' (or was it Wife Swap?) once. There was this radical, grossly obese Christian lady in it and believe me, if you had seen that 2-part episode, you'd either be distancing yourself from her (or simply believing her to be a non-Christian) or seriously second guessing your religion.
You're implying that only a handful of Muslims have been faced with this so-called 'truth'. Otherwise, as you'd imagine, a berserk Muslim isn't a pretty sight, and if many had - and there are millions of Muslims in the United States who watch American television that especially demonizes Muslims (especially Fox and Glen Beck) - you'd see berserk Muslims running around everywhere. Watch out! There's one outside YOUR HOUSE! Just kidding. So, if there was truth in what you say, there'd be many berserk Muslims running around the United States. :rolleyes:

Thanks for the gracious welcome, Ms Lily. :)

[lily]

Thanks for the gracious welcome, Ms Lily. :)


Glad toÂ*Â*have you mumin. It's a good day when I learn something new and I did in the last two posts that you made.

[Labrocca]

Wow Mumin..some great posts. I love learning and debating. Keep up the posts and maybe some of us here will be more open-minded (CWN excluded of course) to Islam.

[NortheastCynic]

So that's what a reasonable religious person looks like. Thanks a lot for the insight Mumin.

-NC