Whom do you think good

[cocaine]

Muslim or christian.
i really dont like muslim. They being very cruel when someone goes out of their religions rule.

[Labrocca]

I am not sure you are expressing your opinion in a very intelligent manner. What's your native tongue...maybe it's just a language problem?

I personally have never had a problem with Muslims.Â*Â*Obviously though there is a problem currently with Muslims PR department.Â*Â*:)

[FucangLong]

Wow, that was a very steriotypical statement. First off, Muslim is not a religion. Islam is. A Muslim is a folower of Islam. Secondly, you can not judge a whole religion on the actions of some extremists. Every religion has extremists. The whole point of Islam is about peace and fairness. Sometimes when people interpret things, they interperet things "falsely" in other peoples minds. Iraqi extremists are doing what they think is right.

[forest_ranger254]

Wow, that was a very steriotypical statement. First off, Muslim is not a religion. Islam is. A Muslim is a folower of Islam. Secondly, you can not judge a whole religion on the actions of some extremists. Every religion has extremists. The whole point of Islam is about peace and fairness. Sometimes when people interpret things, they interperet things "falsely" in other peoples minds. Iraqi extremists are doing what they think is right.


Problem is, the extremists are the majority. Unless you are saying that the minority is the characteristic group of people. Unless you can interpret a direct order to kill heretics as peace and fairness in some perverted way, you have no legs to stand on.

[AlonzoMourning23]

Problem is, the extremists are the majority.

Well, extremists are the majority of extremists. That's about the only way your statement is true.

[Athena]

Wow, that was a very steriotypical statement. First off, Muslim is not a religion. Islam is. A Muslim is a folower of Islam. Secondly, you can not judge a whole religion on the actions of some extremists. Every religion has extremists. The whole point of Islam is about peace and fairness. Sometimes when people interpret things, they interperet things "falsely" in other peoples minds. Iraqi extremists are doing what they think is right.


Problem is, the extremists are the majority. Unless you are saying that the minority is the characteristic group of people. Unless you can interpret a direct order to kill heretics as peace and fairness in some perverted way, you have no legs to stand on.


The first time I heard of heretics and about killing people for religious reasons, it was the Christians killing the heretics and other non believers.
I understand there are people living with the memory of Alexander the Great and the crusades as though these things were recent history, but in the US this history, including the terrible history of the Christians, seems to be forgotten.Â*Â*

There is not a big difference between the religions, only between the cultures.Â*Â*

[forest_ranger254]

The first time I heard of heretics and about killing people for religious reasons, it was the Christians killing the heretics and other non believers.
I understand there are people living with the memory of Alexander the Great and the crusades as though these things were recent history, but in the US this history, including the terrible history of the Christians, seems to be forgotten.Â*Â*

There is not a big difference between the religions, only between the cultures.Â*Â*


Sorry, but do not confuse the Catholics with Christians. Catholics and Orthodox followers require works to get to heaven. The Bible, which is the foundation of Christian faith, very clearly says that they are false teachers. We are saved "By grace through faith, not of ourselves, it is a gift of God; not of works lest any man should boast." here is a list of verses that will explain it in full:

“If there had been a law given which could make alive, verily righteousness would have been of the law,� Gal. 3:21

“Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price,� Isaiah 55:1

Martin Luther, the founder of the Protestant movement, said:

"They attribute to Free-will a very little indeed, yet they teach us that by that very little we can attain unto righteousness and grace. Nor do they solve that question, Why does God justify one and leave another? in any other way than by asserting the freedom of the will, and saying, Because the one endeavors and the other does not; and God regards the one for endeavoring, and despises the other for his not endeavoring; lest, if he did otherwise, he should appear to be unjust."

Paul says concerning some who would base salvation on their own merits, that, “going about to establish their own righteousness, they did not submit themselves to the righteousness of God,� and were, therefore, not in the Church of Christ. He makes it plain that “the righteousness of God� is given to us through faith, and that we enter heaven pleading only the merits of Christ.

From now on, please differentiate between the three churches who require works (Catholics, Orthodox, and Anglicans (the ones who incited the witch-hunts)) and Christianity. It is insulting to those of us who are Christians, and there is one hell of a difference, and you speak lies to say there isn't. If they be Christians, let them leave their writings behind and use the scriptures as their basis.

[forest_ranger254]

Well, extremists are the majority of extremists. That's about the only way your statement is true.

otherwise they go against the very basis of their beliefs. The majority, 5-6 governments and the people supporting them. the minority, the few you encounter here. You ever been told what muslims actually do to people who go against their religion? Even in America, the Muslims I have spoken to have been very violent to me about mentioning my faith. In places run by them, they torture and kill people who don't believe what they do. I worked in the area of Jacksonville where most Muslims lived, the Beaver Street Market. address of the place was 1810 West Beaver Street, Jacksonville, FL, 32209. working there from 4 AM to 5-6 PM, I met a lot of Muslims. I never had a repeat customer, and rarely did I not have one give me a piece of their mind. possibly the only reason they didn't get more violent is the fact that next door the Police had a substation. Either I have had one crappy dose of Muslims, or you are wrong.

[AlonzoMourning23]

Catholics and orthodox most certainly are christians. It is insulting to members of such group to suggest they are not christian, and both existed long before Luther.

From the gospels themselves:

Matthew 25:31-46

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Matthew 19:16-22

(16)And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" (17) "And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments." (18) "He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness," (19) "Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." (20) "The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet?" (21) "Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me."

Luke 19:7-10

7All the people saw this and began to mutter, "He has gone to be the guest of a 'sinner.' "

8But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."

9Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

Luke 7:44-48

44Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little." 48Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."


If you want to disregard good works, then you are disregarding Jesus' words according to the gospel. While faith and good works are important, all the faith in the world will be for naught if your actions have not reflected them. That's what Jesus taught, according to the gospels. Was Jesus wrong?

otherwise they go against the very basis of their beliefs. The majority, 5-6 governments and the people supporting them. the minority, the few you encounter here. You ever been told what muslims actually do to people who go against their religion? Even in America, the Muslims I have spoken to have been very violent to me about mentioning my faith. In places run by them, they torture and kill people who don't believe what they do. I worked in the area of Jacksonville where most Muslims lived, the Beaver Street Market. address of the place was 1810 West Beaver Street, Jacksonville, FL, 32209. working there from 4 AM to 5-6 PM, I met a lot of Muslims. I never had a repeat customer, and rarely did I not have one give me a piece of their mind. possibly the only reason they didn't get more violent is the fact that next door the Police had a substation. Either I have had one crappy dose of Muslims, or you are wrong.

Well, I can imagine you brining out the worst in people. While I don't know the situation, I can imagine some comments being made about their beliefs, whether you intended offense or not.

But I lived in an apartment building with many religious muslims. The first time I walked into the lobby 5 men dressed in islamic religious attire stepped off the elevator, and the few other people walking around were muslim as well. I went to a university with a very large muslim population (york university in toronto, 50,000 students in total, over 50% foreign born). Hijabs were very common on campus, and a few women even wore burkas. I was friends with muslims, I knew Iraqi's, Palestinians etc., I was involved with the society for palestinian human rights, and attended multiple events run by muslims. I was also involved in an organization who's whole purpose was to encourage peaceful coexistance between israeli's and palestinians (forget the name at the moment), jointly headed by an israeli and a palestinian. While these groups would often bring in Islamic scholars (including a professor from baghdad university), or experts on the israeli/palestinian conflict, they would also sometimes bring in jewish speakers. On one occasion someone passed out anti-semitic literature in one of the sphr meetings, it was quickly and forecefully denounced by the organization. And of the muslims I've known, they've never had any problem with my religious beliefs.

You look at statistics from places such as pakistan and you see the extremist parties have maybe 10% of the publics support. In urban areas you have fashion shows even. There are people of various religious beliefs in all muslim countries, some even a large minority (such as in lebanon and egypt). The extremists are a problem, they are the face of Islam to the west, but they aren't the numerical majority by any stretch of the imagination. Quite often when islamist groups gain many of their votes due to the corruption and incompetence of other parties (see hamas and muslim brotherhood), not so much the beliefs of the parties themselves.

[Athena]

The first time I heard of heretics and about killing people for religious reasons, it was the Christians killing the heretics and other non believers.
I understand there are people living with the memory of Alexander the Great and the crusades as though these things were recent history, but in the US this history, including the terrible history of the Christians, seems to be forgotten.Â*Â*

There is not a big difference between the religions, only between the cultures.Â*Â*


Sorry, but do not confuse the Catholics with Christians. Catholics and Orthodox followers require works to get to heaven. The Bible, which is the foundation of Christian faith, very clearly says that they are false teachers. We are saved "By grace through faith, not of ourselves, it is a gift of God; not of works lest any man should boast." here is a list of verses that will explain it in full:

“If there had been a law given which could make alive, verily righteousness would have been of the law,� Gal. 3:21

“Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price,� Isaiah 55:1

Martin Luther, the founder of the Protestant movement, said:

"They attribute to Free-will a very little indeed, yet they teach us that by that very little we can attain unto righteousness and grace. Nor do they solve that question, Why does God justify one and leave another? in any other way than by asserting the freedom of the will, and saying, Because the one endeavors and the other does not; and God regards the one for endeavoring, and despises the other for his not endeavoring; lest, if he did otherwise, he should appear to be unjust."

Paul says concerning some who would base salvation on their own merits, that, “going about to establish their own righteousness, they did not submit themselves to the righteousness of God,� and were, therefore, not in the Church of Christ. He makes it plain that “the righteousness of God� is given to us through faith, and that we enter heaven pleading only the merits of Christ.

From now on, please differentiate between the three churches who require works (Catholics, Orthodox, and Anglicans (the ones who incited the witch-hunts)) and Christianity. It is insulting to those of us who are Christians, and there is one hell of a difference, and you speak lies to say there isn't. If they be Christians, let them leave their writings behind and use the scriptures as their basis.


Rather than quoting the bible and assuming everyone agrees on the meaning on of the words,Â*Â*would you please explain what you think the quotes mean.Â*Â*

Martin Luther firmly supported the intolerable servant/master relationship, and he strongly believed the witch hunts were necessary.Â*Â*He is not someone I accept as an authority on truth or even an authority of what is right.Â*Â*Thank God for the Greek and Roman classics that got us beyond the superstititon of Martin Luther's day.Â*Â*I hate to think where we would be today if the rest of the world had not gotten Christians beyond their superstition.Â*Â* And I define Christian as anyone who believes in Jesus as their savior.Â*Â*The Catholics, Mormons, Protestants, Quakers, Seventh Day Adventist, Christian Science, Methodist, Congregationalist, Jehovah Witnesses, Lutherans, Pentecostal, Unitarians, etc..Â*Â*Personally I think it is ridiculous when one Christian says another Christian isn't a Christian.Â*Â*I don't think anything could be much more offensive, except telling non Christians they don't have God and morals.Â*Â*That is really offensive too.Â*Â*

Europe was torn up with constant warring between Catholics and Protestants, and both pursecutred each other. When they got to the New Land they drove the abrorigines from their land, gave them infected blankets with the intention of genocide, and did other things I believe were wrong. Germany was the seat of the Holy Roman Empire and the Protestant Reformation, and was very Christian when the Nazis took control. This is why the Jews were treated so unhumanly, and why Isreal is a reality today. Christians are not better than Muslims, but those who have war Gods and believe they can know the will of God, do awful things in the name of their God. This faith you are so proud of has a dark side.

[Labrocca]

Athena there is a difference in Christians religions where believers feel God is on their side vs the Islamic faith which actually has rules for war and expects it's followers to act accordingly. Only the crusades imho are a good example when the Christians used God to start war. The crusades were also 600 years ago...one can't say the world wasn't more war prone then.

forest_ranger254....where did you work that you ticked off all these Muslims? Are you a born again Christian and were you preaching to them? I wouldn't return either if that was the case. Born again Christians are a fanatical bunch and can be very overbearring in conversations. My Uncle became 'born again' and pretty much the whole family disowned him. He talks about nothing but God and Jesus all day long. You can't even ask him about breakfast without hearing some proverb. It's really disgusting.

[forest_ranger254]

Rather than quoting the bible and assuming everyone agrees on the meaning on of the words,Â*Â*would you please explain what you think the quotes mean.Â*Â*

They mean exactly what they say. simply put. You interpret the Bible with the Bible.

Martin Luther firmly supported the intolerable servant/master relationship, and he strongly believed the witch hunts were necessary. He is not someone I accept as an authority on truth or even an authority of what is right. Thank God for the Greek and Roman classics that got us beyond the superstititon of Martin Luther's day. I hate to think where we would be today if the rest of the world had not gotten Christians beyond their superstition. And I define Christian as anyone who believes in Jesus as their savior. The Catholics, Mormons, Protestants, Quakers, Seventh Day Adventist, Christian Science, Methodist, Congregationalist, Jehovah Witnesses, Lutherans, Pentecostal, Unitarians, etc.. Personally I think it is ridiculous when one Christian says another Christian isn't a Christian. I don't think anything could be much more offensive, except telling non Christians they don't have God and morals. That is really offensive too.

And into another superstition? Maybe Martin Luther had enough people shooting at him in the first place and put up a front. You ever considered the fact that he already had the Catholic church looking for a chance to kill him. Did he really need both Italy AND Britain turning on him? The definition of a Christian is someone who believes in four things:
1. Jesus as their saviour
2. The innerrancy of the Bible
3. The infallibility of the Bible
4. The completeness of the Bible.

The Mormons, Catholics, Lutherans and Orthodoxians don't believe in Jesus as their saviour, just in their works as their saviour.
Jehovah's witnesses don't believe in either of the last three.
Mormons, Catholics, Orthodoxians and any other ones that have other "scriptures" do not believe in the completeness of the Bible, hence the Book of Mormon and The Holy Tradition.
Christian Scientists don't believe in any of them, hence the admission of the supposed gospel of Thomas and the editting of the Bible.

Europe was torn up with constant warring between Catholics and Protestants, and both pursecutred each other. When they got to the New Land they drove the abrorigines from their land, gave them infected blankets with the intention of genocide, and did other things I believe were wrong. Germany was the seat of the Holy Roman Empire and the Protestant Reformation, and was very Christian when the Nazis took control. This is why the Jews were treated so unhumanly, and why Isreal is a reality today. Christians are not better than Muslims, but those who have war Gods and believe they can know the will of God, do awful things in the name of their God. This faith you are so proud of has a dark side.


show me one point where the "persecution" the Protestants leveled on the Lutheran and Catholic church went past saying the Lutherans were wrong in secret. The Orthodoxians were the root of the holy Roman Empire, well before the Protestant Reformation, which, for your information, led to a huge boom in education. Remember that Protestants were the first people to open a truly public school. You seperate the Protestants from the Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox, and Jehovah's witnesses, and you have nothing you can blame on the Protestants rightly. The Nazis are NOT Christians, and I would tell anyone that believed that lie that they were beyond insane. You ask any Christian that lived in those times and you will get blessed out.

[forest_ranger254]

forest_ranger254....where did you work that you ticked off all these Muslims? Are you a born again Christian and were you preaching to them?Â*Â*I wouldn't return either if that was the case. Born again Christians are a fanatical bunch and can be very overbearring in conversations.Â*Â*My Uncle became 'born again' and pretty much the whole family disowned him.Â*Â*He talks about nothing but God and Jesus all day long.Â*Â*You can't even ask him about breakfast without hearing some proverb. It's really disgusting.


I worked at a fruit stand outside the Beaver Street Farmers' Market. Ad all I did was politely ask if they attended a church somewhere. Take a look at your uncle's life. What was he like before he was saved, and what is he like now? not in conversation. I want to know about his behavioural changes. It is obvious that he changed in his conversation by lightyears, from your post. Notice any other changes? Like him refusing to do something that you two used to do all the time, citing his being a Christian as a reason? If you haven't even gone there, than you might want to. I will guarantee that he will have a change. If he was a smoker before, ask him if he wants to light one up. Ask him if he wants to go fishing on a Sunday. How long has it been since then? if it was a long time ago, and he hasn't burned out, He has definitely got something you ain't got. here is a link (http://www.hpbc.net/statementoffaith.htm) to a website that has a statement of faith. It is rather standard, so it should give you a way to understand him.

[Athena]

forest_ranger254....where did you work that you ticked off all these Muslims? Are you a born again Christian and were you preaching to them?Â*Â*I wouldn't return either if that was the case. Born again Christians are a fanatical bunch and can be very overbearring in conversations.Â*Â*My Uncle became 'born again' and pretty much the whole family disowned him.Â*Â*He talks about nothing but God and Jesus all day long.Â*Â*You can't even ask him about breakfast without hearing some proverb. It's really disgusting.


I worked at a fruit stand outside the Beaver Street Farmers' Market. Ad all I did was politely ask if they attended a church somewhere. Take a look at your uncle's life. What was he like before he was saved, and what is he like now? not in conversation. I want to know about his behavioural changes. It is obvious that he changed in his conversation by lightyears, from your post. Notice any other changes? Like him refusing to do something that you two used to do all the time, citing his being a Christian as a reason? If you haven't even gone there, than you might want to. I will guarantee that he will have a change. If he was a smoker before, ask him if he wants to light one up. Ask him if he wants to go fishing on a Sunday. How long has it been since then? if it was a long time ago, and he hasn't burned out, He has definitely got something you ain't got. here is a link (http://www.hpbc.net/statementoffaith.htm) to a website that has a statement of faith. It is rather standard, so it should give you a way to understand him.


Are you implying something makes born against Christians better than the rest of humanity? If so, do you have any idea how terribly offensive that is? How do you justify such an idea? Guarenteed there are Muslims who are just as sure that being Muslim makes people better.

Exactly what flavor of Christian are you, any way?

[Athena]

Athena Wrote:
Rather than quoting the bible and assuming everyone agrees on the meaning on of the words, would you please explain what you think the quotes mean.


Forest wrote: They mean exactly what they say. simply put. You interpret the Bible with the Bible.


Your answer is not acceptable. A parrot can repeat what it hears, and this does not mean it comprehends what it is repeating. Either defend the quotes with your own words, or please, stop responding to my post.
You appear incapable of reasoning, like some kind of robot that has been programmed, but is incapable of original thought, and this makes discussion with you totally futile because it will go no where.

[Labrocca]

forest_ranger254....where did you work that you ticked off all these Muslims? Are you a born again Christian and were you preaching to them?Â*Â*I wouldn't return either if that was the case. Born again Christians are a fanatical bunch and can be very overbearring in conversations.Â*Â*My Uncle became 'born again' and pretty much the whole family disowned him.Â*Â*He talks about nothing but God and Jesus all day long.Â*Â*You can't even ask him about breakfast without hearing some proverb. It's really disgusting.


I worked at a fruit stand outside the Beaver Street Farmers' Market. Ad all I did was politely ask if they attended a church somewhere. Take a look at your uncle's life. What was he like before he was saved, and what is he like now? not in conversation. I want to know about his behavioural changes. It is obvious that he changed in his conversation by lightyears, from your post. Notice any other changes? Like him refusing to do something that you two used to do all the time, citing his being a Christian as a reason? If you haven't even gone there, than you might want to. I will guarantee that he will have a change. If he was a smoker before, ask him if he wants to light one up. Ask him if he wants to go fishing on a Sunday. How long has it been since then? if it was a long time ago, and he hasn't burned out, He has definitely got something you ain't got. here is a link (http://www.hpbc.net/statementoffaith.htm) to a website that has a statement of faith. It is rather standard, so it should give you a way to understand him.


Yeah he doesn't want to spend time with anyone but himself and God. It's complicated to explain but basically you are right. He has accepted Jesus into his heart and decided that he needs nothing else. I refuse to believe God wants us spending every waking minute praising him and his glory. He didn't give us all this free will and ability to enjoy our lives only to spend our lives gawking over him.

My Uncle has always been an obsessive type. He loves to lecture and preach to people as well. Suddenly being Born Again gives him an obsession as well as the right to tell other people what's wrong with them. It's rather repulsive actually. He wasn't normal before and he is even less normal now.

He used to smoke...still smokes. He quit drinking long before finding Christ. He was always anti-social but now his 100% excuse is "It's not Christian"...which is total BS. He swore off the internet as evil too until I showed him all the Christian websites he could use for bible study. Now he is on the web often.

He just replaced one obsession in his life with this one. Is it more harmful??? NAH...but is it healthy mentally. NOPE. He told his brother that their mother and father are in Hell because they weren't born again. What kind of crap is that? It's just mean spirited. Even if it's true he didn't have to go out saying that to his brother.

I am seriously not a fan of ANYONE obsessed with ANY religion. If you want to have a belief I respect that. However if you think your humanity is based upon worshipping, praising, and doing whomevers bidding then I think you have a screw loose.

Yeah I said it. I think you have a screw loose. You are helping people at a fruit stand. You have no right to ask about their faith and church in that situation. Although I am sure you will find some quote from the bible that says otherwise.

The bible is so full of inuendo and contradictions that really it's a worthless book. Anyone quoting the old testament I simply ignore. It's not consistent at all.

[forest_ranger254]

Are you implying something makes born against Christians better than the rest of humanity?Â*Â*If so, do you have any idea how terribly offensive that is?Â*Â*How do you justify such an idea?Â*Â*Guarenteed there are Muslims who are just as sure that being Muslim makes people better.Â*Â*

Exactly what flavor of Christian are you, any way?Â*Â*


No, I am not. I, as a Christian, am just a sinner saved by grace and inhabited by the Holy Spirit. The changes are because of that indwelling. I am still me, but I choose to defer to the will of the Holy Spirit. I still make mistakes. I am not better than you. God is. "greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world.
I am a Bible-believing Independent Baptist. check my beliefs out at http://www.hpbc.net/

[forest_ranger254]

Yeah he doesn't want to spend time with anyone but himself and God.Â*Â*It's complicated to explain but basically you are right. He has accepted Jesus into his heart and decided that he needs nothing else.Â*Â*I refuse to believe God wants us spending every waking minute praising him and his glory.Â*Â*He didn't give us all this free will and ability to enjoy our lives only to spend our lives gawking over him.Â*Â*

No, He wants to bless you. His blessings are held back by your unwillingness to just repent and believe. It is a simple explanation. Once a person is saved, there is a reason to shout. to explain this, I can only use an explanation I found in a song (Sorry, but it is the easiest way):

I'm gonna shout it from the housetops,
Proclaim it from the mountaintops,
Tell the world around me Jesus saves.
I will lift my voice.
I'm gonna make a joyful noise.
THe world will here my voice Jesus saves.

My Uncle has always been an obsessive type. He loves to lecture and preach to people as well. Suddenly being Born Again gives him an obsession as well as the right to tell other people what's wrong with them. It's rather repulsive actually. He wasn't normal before and he is even less normal now.

And is he in the right? Has it sometimes seemed like you were talking to a person who just won Bill Gates' estate? Everybody obsesses over something. You might obsess over this website. or your relationships. whatever it is, you have an obsession. His obsession changed drastically. What was his concentration in college? What did he do prior to it? Did he know anything about evolution prior to the change? (sorry, but in today's society, that seems to be a key issue)

He used to smoke...still smokes. He quit drinking long before finding Christ. He was always anti-social but now his 100% excuse is "It's not Christian"...which is total BS. He swore off the internet as evil too until I showed him all the Christian websites he could use for bible study. Now he is on the web often.

Explain what types of situations he would say that to. Maybe I can bring a Biblical reason for his stance.

He just replaced one obsession in his life with this one. Is it more harmful??? NAH...but is it healthy mentally. NOPE. He told his brother that their mother and father are in Hell because they weren't born again. What kind of crap is that? It's just mean spirited. Even if it's true he didn't have to go out saying that to his brother.

And you know what? If they were unsaved, they are in hell. He told you the truth to the best of his knowledge. Deny salvation, go to hell. It is that simple. I am not much of a fan of "Scare Tactics Salvation," but if I had to scare people to keep them out of hell, I would scare the devil out of them. I also know that most Christians are the most sane, logical, and methodological people in the world. A list of these would take me a long time to type out, but I will drop a few names:

Lee Strobell, prior to being saved, wrote an article entitled "Dun-clad Preachers versus Lab Coat Scientists." This was a pro-evolution book. He then proceeded to write the books: Case For Christ, Case for Creation, and Case for Faith. These books ask the tough questions to experts in their fields of the NEw Testament, History, Science (Including Astronomy, Physics, Geology, and Biochemistry) and Philosophy, and get answers that pierce to the middle of the arguments for atheism, transcendentalism, agnosticism, Islam, Mormon, and many other non-Christian beliefs, and leave the remains scattered on the floor for the mislead to try and pick up.

I am seriously not a fan of ANYONE obsessed with ANY religion. If you want to have a belief I respect that. However if you think your humanity is based upon worshipping, praising, and doing whomevers bidding then I think you have a screw loose.

Think about this, maybe he is in touch with Someone and folloowing instructions nobody else gets.

Yeah I said it. I think you have a screw loose. You are helping people at a fruit stand. You have no right to ask about their faith and church in that situation. Although I am sure you will find some quote from the bible that says otherwise.

I have a freedom of speech, and that right is filled for under the company's bylaws, so I have every right to ask about their faith. Read the constitution.

The bible is so full of inuendo and contradictions that really it's a worthless book.Â*Â*Anyone quoting the old testament I simply ignore.Â*Â*It's not consistent at all.


Hmmm, do you really want me to tear that argument to pieces here for you? I guarantee that you will not be able to find a major contradiction in the primary facts. and there is no real inuendo. The Old Testament is not only consistent with itself, it is consistent with history, and if you look at ALL the evidence, with science as well.

[forest_ranger254]

Athena Wrote:
Rather than quoting the bible and assuming everyone agrees on the meaning on of the words,Â*Â*would you please explain what you think the quotes mean.Â*Â*


Forest wrote: They mean exactly what they say. simply put. You interpret the Bible with the Bible.


Your answer is not acceptable.Â*Â*A parrot can repeat what it hears, and this does not mean it comprehends what it is repeating.Â*Â*Either defend the quotes with your own words, or please, stop responding to my post.
You appear incapable of reasoning, like some kind of robot that has been programmed, but is incapable of original thought, and this makes discussion with you totally futile because it will go no where.Â*Â*



I am very capable of reasoning. I have looked into ulterior ways of interpreting the Bible, and found them lacking. If you want to debate this with me, I advise you to enroll in Old Testament Survey and New Testament survey in a Christian School near you. If you actually studied the Bible, you would be able to understand where I am coming from. Alas, you will probably tell me there is too much to read.

[AlonzoMourning23]

I really would like to hear your response to the biblical quotes I posted, quotes which you believe to be the words of jesus.

[Athena]

Are you implying something makes born against Christians better than the rest of humanity?Â*Â*If so, do you have any idea how terribly offensive that is?Â*Â*How do you justify such an idea?Â*Â*Guarenteed there are Muslims who are just as sure that being Muslim makes people better.Â*Â*

Exactly what flavor of Christian are you, any way?Â*Â*


No, I am not. I, as a Christian, am just a sinner saved by grace and inhabited by the Holy Spirit. The changes are because of that indwelling. I am still me, but I choose to defer to the will of the Holy Spirit. I still make mistakes. I am not better than you. God is. "greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world.
I am a Bible-believing Independent Baptist. check my beliefs out at http://www.hpbc.net/


At the risk of being told I am baiting again, instead of demanding good reasoning- If being a born again Christian doesn't make people better then those who are not, what is the point?

Virtue and strengthen are synonomous. Does anyone understand what that means? A person does not have to have religious mythology to be highly moral and ethical, because being moral and ethical is a matter of good reasoning.

The fate of our souls is directly related to karma. If we are walking to the grocery store, God doesn't whisk us away and put us in the park. Not in this life, nor any life after. It is not a God who determines our fate but our own decisions. This is not about earning heaven, it is about karma. If I wrong someone and do not realize that and determine to never repeat the act, karma will bring me to another opportunity to learn, until I learn. I wouldn't want to share a heaven with people who have not choosen to be better people by reason, but remain prejudice and hurtful, but still feel good because they believe a God favors them over those do not believe the bible is God's word, but instead are devoted to being self aware and conscious and serving.

This conversation would be better if it were about more than Christianity!!!! It would be a huge improvement if were not about prejudice against those who are also religous but not Christian. We are in war right now, and this war is all about religion, and only reason will bring us out of the war. I am not baiting, but I am doing all in power to replace superstition and fear and prejudice with reason, BECAUSE THOSE WHO DON'T REASON HURT PEOPLE AND KILL PEOPLE AND SUCK ENTIRE NATIONS TO SPENDING MORE ON WARS THAN ANYTHING ELSE.
WHO IS GOOD IS WHO REASONS, NOT A CHRISTIAN OR MUSLIM PREJUDICED AGAINST THOSE WHO NOT OF THE SAME FAITH. YES, I AM SCREAMING. I AM FED UP WITH THE RELIGIOUS ARGUEMENTS THAT LACK REASON!!!!!!

[forest_ranger254]

I really would like to hear your response to the biblical quotes I posted, quotes which you believe to be the words of jesus.


If you posted them, tell me where

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. The Baptists really really need to stop Bashing other Brethren within the Body of Christ.
2. For years they been going after the Roman Catholics.
3. They need to get over themselves, if you asked me, IMHBO.
4. All the Body of Christ are not the same.
5. The man made, divisions in the Body of Christ do more hurt than good.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[AlonzoMourning23]

If you posted them, tell me where


http://www.democracyforums.com/showthread.php?tid=238&pid=2494#pid2494

[forest_ranger254]

Sorry bout that,

1. The Baptists really really need to stop Bashing other Brethren within the Body of Christ.
2. For years they been going after the Roman Catholics.
3. They need to get over themselves, if you asked me, IMHBO.
4. All the Body of Christ are not the same.
5. The man made, divisions in the Body of Christ do more hurt than good.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


The Independent Baptist believe that there will be people of many denominations in heaven. However, the Roman Catholics have a little doctrinal problem. They think you can work your way to heaven. Sorry, but I will not back down from my argument. Salvation is, as Paul says it, "By grace through faith, not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." If a person believes that salvation is not of works, then they are on the right track. If not, they are on the road to the lake of fire. Plain and simple.

En Cristo por siempra,
Polean Drenden

[forest_ranger254]

If you posted them, tell me where


http://www.democracyforums.com/showthread.php?tid=238&pid=2494#pid2494


I am sorry, but you twisted the words that Jesus said, leaving out other crucial remarks he made. Barring out the epistles, I can make a case that salvation is by faith by citing the salvation of the thief on the cross. I also cite John 3, where Jesus makes many crucial remarks towards the fact of salvation by grace:

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Thus, I have proved my case that salvation is by sola fide and sola gratia, as the Bible says. Now, destroying the Roman Catholic and Orthodox traditions, I cite another thing Jesus said:

"You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

It seems that Jesus did NOT support the manmade traditions of those times, and why would he support other manmade traditions that, again, go against the commands of God.

[AlonzoMourning23]

Thus, I have proved my case that salvation is by sola fide and sola gratia, as the Bible says.

Not true. We now have quotes where jesus stated that those who do good works will be rewarded and those who believe will be rewarded. Since your arguing only one is important, why do you think those quotes are incorrect? Do you have any thing in opposition to those quotes, or is it just that you have different quotes from Jesus arguing a different point.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. The Baptists really really need to stop Bashing other Brethren within the Body of Christ.
2. For years they been going after the Roman Catholics.
3. They need to get over themselves, if you asked me, IMHBO.
4. All the Body of Christ are not the same.
5. The man made, divisions in the Body of Christ do more hurt than good.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


The Independent Baptist believe that there will be people of many denominations in heaven. However, the Roman Catholics have a little doctrinal problem. They think you can work your way to heaven. Sorry, but I will not back down from my argument. Salvation is, as Paul says it, "By grace through faith, not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." If a person believes that salvation is not of works, then they are on the right track. If not, they are on the road to the lake of fire. Plain and simple.

En Cristo por siempra,
Polean Drenden



Sorry bout that,

1. And in what way do the Catholics have to earn their way into Heaven?
2. The Catholic Church has many Charities, that it does through out the World.
3. But there isn't a earn as you go status anywhere within the Catholic Church, you son are sadly mistaken, and verge on blasphemy.
4. Your sect is an off shoot of the Catholics, your belief system is rooted in Catholic traditions.
5. There are so many comparisons, and so many man made differences. that the Baptists made.
6. The Catholics won't charge you in error, but we will not listen to you for ever.
7. Go In Peace.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[forest_ranger254]

Thus, I have proved my case that salvation is by sola fide and sola gratia, as the Bible says.

Not true. We now have quotes where jesus stated that those who do good works will be rewarded and those who believe will be rewarded. Since your arguing only one is important, why do you think those quotes are incorrect? Do you have any thing in opposition to those quotes, or is it just that you have different quotes from Jesus arguing a different point.


Those who do good deeds AFTER SALVATION will be justly rewarded, but remember the Bible also refers to OUR righteousnesses (good works) as filthy rags. Wipe your stove with a filthy rag and will it get cleaner? I don't think the quotes are incorrect, I think you twisted what they really meant. In context of the entirety of Jesus's words, there is a clear distinction between the laws of the Jewish faith, which was instituted by God, and the grace of the Christian faith, which was an amendment of the Jewish faith made by God. Listen, you can twist the scripture all you want, but the Bible, like any other historical text, must be taken in its full context. If you started doing that, we wouldn't have arguments like this. Alas, a study of the Bible would be something you would refuse to do.

[forest_ranger254]

Sorry bout that,

1. And in what way do the Catholics have to earn their way into Heaven?
2. The Catholic Church has many Charities, that it does through out the World.
3. But there isn't a earn as you go status anywhere within the Catholic Church, you son are sadly mistaken, and verge on blasphemy.
4. Your sect is an off shoot of the Catholics, your belief system is rooted in Catholic traditions.
5. There are so many comparisons, and so many man made differences. that the Baptists made.
6. The Catholics won't charge you in error, but we will not listen to you for ever.
7. Go In Peace.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


And it is people like you that continue to shove me into the same sect that started the Crusades. Here is my point-by-point answer:
1. Through fulfillment of the seve n sacraments, and by following everything that the "father" of the mass says.
2. Yeah, so does the UCLA, John Kerry, and the Democratic party. Is that a reason to join them?
3. I will blaspheme man all I want. The Catholics I have met, and Catholics turned Baptists all say the same thing, they were required to fulfill certain obligations to reach heaven.
4. Pshaw, I deny that with vigor. We have pastors, not fathers. We have the right and privilege to pick up God's Holy Word and read it to our hearts content. My salvation is through the cross and not some set of sacraments. I believe that tradition is only a way for man to shoved God into your little neat box because you can't understand the infiteness that God is.
5. The Baptists believe in Sola Scriptura. If the Bible doesn't say it, it isn't required. Here are some issues that the Catholic belief has with the Bible itself:
A. Marriage is not something a pastor or pope is not allowed to do. Matter of fact, the supposed first pope (I will get to that next), Peter, had a mother-in-law. The only way to get one of those is marriage, last I checked.
B. Peter, the one held as the first pope, never visited Rome according to the Bible. If he had, the only time he could was while Paul was writing the book of Romans. Peter being mentioned first in most of Paul's other passages, he would definitely be listed in the list of people Paul greeted in that book. However, Peter is not mentioned once in that book. Peter was head of the church in Jerusalem. Which leads me to my next point:
C. The first church was in Jerusalem, not Rome.
D. Confession is between the sinner and God. Jesus is the only mediator. 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
confession does NOT require a priest or to pray to Mary.
E. Mary was not a deity, and was not holy. Mary was human, and was a sinner, though she was saved. Nowhere in the Bible does it even call her a deity.
6. And neither will the Bible-believing Baptists.
7. Don't worry, I will.

En Cristo por siempra,
Polean Drenden

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But you seem enraged about your faith and not a peace with it.
2. Your hard shell will be cracked one day.
3. You have all the anti- Catholic triads formed in your head, and this is what's the real shame.
4. When Peter went to Rome, Rome was pagan City, much later Rome was converted, so there wasn't a Pope in that Era of Peter or Paul.
5. Son I can't continue to argue with you on scripture, you can sort things out yourself.
6. Go In Peace.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[forest_ranger254]

Sorry bout that,

1. But you seem enraged about your faith and not a peace with it.
2. Your hard shell will be cracked one day.
3. You have all the anti- Catholic triads formed in your head, and this is what's the real shame.
4. When Peter went to Rome, Rome was pagan City, much later Rome was converted, so there wasn't a Pope in that Era of Peter or Paul.
5. Son I can't continue to argue with you on scripture, you can sort things out yourself.
6. Go In Peace.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


PETER WAS NEVER IN ROME!!! Peter died outside of Rome. You have avoided bringing in any scriptural evidence that Peter visited Rome. Show me one passage that shows his involvement in Rome. Paul is the only apostle written to have visited Rome, and both times he was imprisoned, once in house arrest, chained to a Roman soldier (which was when he wrote the book Ephesians. I am not enraged with my faith, I am enraged about the blasphemies I read in your posts. I have the Bible's triads in my head. You have the Anti-God triads in yours. Fair enough? Mybelief is that one should interpret the Bible with the Bible. The Bible says to study to show myself approved, so I study the Bible. I know what it says, and Peter NEVER visited Rome in the Bible I have. How's about you read the Bible, and then you might be able to argue scripture with me. Until then, I will throw scripture at you.

[AlonzoMourning23]

Those who do good deeds AFTER SALVATION will be justly rewarded, but remember the Bible also refers to OUR righteousnesses (good works) as filthy rags. Wipe your stove with a filthy rag and will it get cleaner? I don't think the quotes are incorrect, I think you twisted what they really meant. In context of the entirety of Jesus's words, there is a clear distinction between the laws of the Jewish faith, which was instituted by God, and the grace of the Christian faith, which was an amendment of the Jewish faith made by God. Listen, you can twist the scripture all you want, but the Bible, like any other historical text, must be taken in its full context.

Ok, I twisted what they meant. Let's take on of the passages I quoted. Please clarify the true meaning of this story told by jesus, as described in matthew 25:31-46:


31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


What does he really mean by that? Particularly lines 41-46 where he condemns those who did not do good works to eternal punishment. That's the story in full, I didn't take it in bits and pieces.


If you started doing that, we wouldn't have arguments like this. Alas, a study of the Bible would be something you would refuse to do.


Oh I think we would. Also, you know exactly what of my religious education?

[forest_ranger254]

Ok, I twisted what they meant. Let's take on of the passages I quoted. Please clarify the true meaning of this story told by jesus, as described in matthew 25:31-46:


31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


What does he really mean by that? Particularly lines 41-46 where he condemns those who did not do good works to eternal punishment. That's the story in full, I didn't take it in bits and pieces.

That is referring to the second coming, and those who do good works are Christians who do good works becausethey are saved. Those who do not good works are those who are unsaved, so don't do good works. You do evil deeds every time you lust after a person of the other sex. Not to say they do not do bad things, but they aspire to their works for God. The good works done by the unsaved are done for reasons other than to please God. If a job is not done to please God, it is sin.


Oh I think we would. Also, you know exactly what of my religious education?


I know that from the way you twist the passages, it can't be too terribly much. I can tell that, if you even took them, you slid past in them, and would fail miserably in a New Testament Survey class under Dr Kemp, the head of the Bible department at Tennessee Temple University.

[AlonzoMourning23]

Ok, I twisted what they meant. Let's take on of the passages I quoted. Please clarify the true meaning of this story told by jesus, as described in matthew 25:31-46:

[quote]
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


What does he really mean by that? Particularly lines 41-46 where he condemns those who did not do good works to eternal punishment. That's the story in full, I didn't take it in bits and pieces.

That is referring to the second coming, and those who do good works are Christians who do good works becausethey are saved. Those who do not good works are those who are unsaved, so don't do good works. You do evil deeds every time you lust after a person of the other sex. Not to say they do not do bad things, but they aspire to their works for God. The good works done by the unsaved are done for reasons other than to please God. If a job is not done to please God, it is sin.

Well, reading that passage, Jesus has two groups who believed in him and call him lord. One group practiced good works, they did things for the poorest and the least in society, and they got rewarded. They acknowledged god just as those who were punished did. He did not disregard good works done.

I think it's clear in the bible, as long as someone has had the opportunity to believe in jesus, then belief is very important to being saved. But Jesus also appears to clearly indicate that works are not just a biproduct of faith, they are just as important as faith. That one can exist without the other. Those who just have faith but lack the deeds were not true followers of his message because they lacked half of it. That's what he appears to argue in this and the other passages I quoted earlier.

I know that from the way you twist the passages, it can't be too terribly much. I can tell that, if you even took them, you slid past in them, and would fail miserably in a New Testament Survey class under Dr Kemp, the head of the Bible department at Tennessee Temple University.


There is more than one way to understand the bible and the gospels, you yourself have been actively denouncing one of them. For whatever you think of catholics, anglicans etc. you can't seriously argue that popes, monks, priests etc. haven't studied the bible.

You confuse lack of knowledge with a different understanding of christianity. You are familiar with conservative baptist theology. I don't agree with the biblical accuracy of many conservative theological arguments, I don't agree with the morality of many such arguments, and therefore I pay more attention to liberal christian theology.

I personally don't care how I do on a test at a 500 student (according to wikipedia) conservative baptist college that is designed to spread a conservative biblical worldview. I've been in classes that are larger than your entire university. And a university that is designed to teach a certain specific perspective in a philosophical area is doing a disservice to its students, both in understanding and in tolerating differences in the real world. One of the good things about a university is listening to your professor or other students argue a point you disagree with, and then engaging in a discussion about why you think your view is more accurate than theirs, or having your view challenged. Personally I would love to take a religious course at your university simply to be able to argue with the professor and students in that class. I'm used to being the only person arguing a certain perspective. I once even failed a midterm in a religion class because we were asked only 3 questions and 1 of the questions I had a choice of answering honestly or simply stating what the teacher wanted to hear. I chose to answer what I believed. And I have a difficult time trusting the professors I agree with, let alone the ones I don't.

I have no problem with your beliefs, at least those we've argued about. As long as you respect my opinion I'll respect yours. I really don't care what you think the bible states, or whether you think I'm right or wrong. It's the active condemnation of another groups religious beliefs that I have a problem with. I do not believe in the superiority of any one religion, or the infallibility of any religious text. I may or may not be christian, but it is important to be aware that no matter how certain you are there's someone with an entirely different view equally, if not more, certain than you, and I see nothing that dictates who's view is superior. If someone spends their life studying the bible, quran, torah, veda's, guru grant sahib etc. they all have a solid scriptural base for their religious views. There's no obvious way to tell which is superior, and that's one of the reasons I think the condemnation of a specific faith is reprehensible.

But I will say, and debating with you is a perfect example of this, that I am amazed at the animosity directed towards Catholics in this day and age. I always assumed that this was one of the prejudices that had died, like prejudice against Irish or Italians. Growing up I never saw animosity directed towards protestants from Catholics. Catholic priests even spoke of Martin Luther as a great man who campaigned against rampant religious corruption. And honestly I never saw animosity directed towards catholics from protestants either. I've lived all my life in the suburbs of boston and in toronto, only online do I find such animosity between christians.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. Zo that was pure gold.
2. And I respect you more than ever for coming up with this great post.
3. You are a genius.
4. Forest Ranger seems to feel he has cornered the market on Gawds ear.
5. And wants everyone to be like him, with his most perfect interpretation on the Bible.
6. His rancor only hurts himself.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[forest_ranger254]

Sorry bout that,

1. Zo that was pure gold.
2. And I respect you more than ever for coming up with this great post.
3. You are a genius.
4. Forest Ranger seems to feel he has cornered the market on Gawds ear.
5. And wants everyone to be like him, with his most perfect interpretation on the Bible.
6. His rancor only hurts himself.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


No, I understand that He is infinite. You have so many markets to stop by before God hears you that its like a huge game of telephone. From you to priest to Mary to God. What are the chances that God will get the same message? What's to say that if you get on the priest's bad side, he won't turn your confession into a prayer to kill you?
Secondly, I don't interpret the Bible. I read the Bible. If you are willing to side with an atheist who believes God doesn't even exist. Go ahead. But remember, only the foolish man allies with the enemies of God. What fellowship does light have with darkness?

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. Zo that was pure gold.
2. And I respect you more than ever for coming up with this great post.
3. You are a genius.
4. Forest Ranger seems to feel he has cornered the market on Gawds ear.
5. And wants everyone to be like him, with his most perfect interpretation on the Bible.
6. His rancor only hurts himself.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


No, I understand that He is infinite. You have so many markets to stop by before God hears you that its like a huge game of telephone. From you to priest to Mary to God. What are the chances that God will get the same message? What's to say that if you get on the priest's bad side, he won't turn your confession into a prayer to kill you?
Secondly, I don't interpret the Bible. I read the Bible. If you are willing to side with an atheist who believes God doesn't even exist. Go ahead. But remember, only the foolish man allies with the enemies of God. What fellowship does light have with darkness?


Sorry bout that,

1. If I speak two words Jesus is listening.
2. Seems Zo, isn't atheist either.
3. I agreed with his post, he did post an excellent post last time.
4. You still haven't touched his most excellent post.
5. But that's cool, nobody is making you either.
6. I have respect for all aspects of the Gawd Head.
7. Mary gave birth to Gawd, I respect that in a woman always.
8. You really are insulting in your comments, but I can handle it.
9. You should go to Israel, I did in 1993, it is a Gawdly place, you can feel it.
10. When and if you have gone, take notice who holds all the important church sites.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[forest_ranger254]

Sorry bout that,

1. If I speak two words Jesus is listening.
2. Seems Zo, isn't atheist either.
3. I agreed with his post, he did post an excellent post last time.
4. You still haven't touched his most excellent post.
5. But that's cool, nobody is making you either.
6. I have respect for all aspects of the Gawd Head.
7. Mary gave birth to Gawd, I respect that in a woman always.
8. You really are insulting in your comments, but I can handle it.
9. You should go to Israel, I did in 1993, it is a Gawdly place, you can feel it.
10. When and if you have gone, take notice who holds all the important church sites.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


Alonzo is an evolutionist. That places him squarely in the realm of atheism. If evolution is possible, God cannot exist, because that makes natural selection impossible.
you haven't given me a long enough time to do the research needed. Plus I do happen to have a life. As a student in Deaf ministries, I am constantly browsing www.aslpro.com and www.alldeaf.com to find out how to reach the deaf for Christ. I have yet to see a single Catholic ministry for the deaf.
God created Mary, so how could Mary give birth to God.
If my posts are insulting to you, then one of us is evil, and the other good. However, the good person doesn't complain like you are. I haven't yet been insulted by your posts. A bit irked at the stain you put on the mark of a Christian, what with your inability to use the Bible, the basis of your beliefs, if you are a Christian that is. But no, I have not been insulted yet. I hate the sin, not the sinner.
Finally, if you think that the earthly importance or size of a church determines where God is, remember that the early church used to meet in houses and catacombs. Not exactly my idea of important or big.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. If I speak two words Jesus is listening.
2. Seems Zo, isn't atheist either.
3. I agreed with his post, he did post an excellent post last time.
4. You still haven't touched his most excellent post.
5. But that's cool, nobody is making you either.
6. I have respect for all aspects of the Gawd Head.
7. Mary gave birth to Gawd, I respect that in a woman always.
8. You really are insulting in your comments, but I can handle it.
9. You should go to Israel, I did in 1993, it is a Gawdly place, you can feel it.
10. When and if you have gone, take notice who holds all the important church sites.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


Alonzo is an evolutionist.
1. So you say.

That places him squarely in the realm of atheism. If evolution is possible, God cannot exist, because that makes natural selection impossible.
you haven't given me a long enough time to do the research needed. Plus I do happen to have a life. As a student in Deaf ministries, I am constantly browsing www.aslpro.com and www.alldeaf.com to find out how to reach the deaf for Christ.

2. So you do good works,..ah nice.

I have yet to see a single Catholic ministry for the deaf.

3. I clicked google 1 million sites popped up.


God created Mary, so how could Mary give birth to God.


4. Special Miracle.



If my posts are insulting to you, then one of us is evil, and the other good. However, the good person doesn't complain like you are.

5. Or the good one doesn't try to insult. While the other enjoys it.

I haven't yet been insulted by your posts. A bit irked at the stain you put on the mark of a Christian, what with your inability to use the Bible, the basis of your beliefs, if you are a Christian that is.

6. So you seem to be able to project judgement with ease.



But no, I have not been insulted yet. I hate the sin, not the sinner.


7. Atleast , that's good.



Finally, if you think that the earthly importance or size of a church determines where God is, remember that the early church used to meet in houses and catacombs. Not exactly my idea of important or big.


8. No, not so much importance, but who's holds down the fortress of our faith.


[b]Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[forest_ranger254]

Alonzo is an evolutionist.
1. So you say.

Why don't you read back in his posts instead of judging the book by its cover. He is either one heck of an actor, or he is an evolutionist. He has posted all the classic evolutionist arguments between him and Nathan.

That places him squarely in the realm of atheism. If evolution is possible, God cannot exist, because that makes natural selection impossible.
you haven't given me a long enough time to do the research needed. Plus I do happen to have a life. As a student in Deaf ministries, I am constantly browsing www.aslpro.com and www.alldeaf.com to find out how to reach the deaf for Christ.

2. So you do good works,..ah nice.

I do good works because I know I am saved. Not because I want to be saved.

I have yet to see a single Catholic ministry for the deaf.

3. I clicked google 1 million sites popped up.

And I talked to a priest in one of the most popular Catholic masses in Jacksonville Florida, just a few miles from the Jacksonville School for the DEAF and blind. Not a single deaf ministry that close to the hub of deaf culture in Florida? And he said he had never visited a mass that had deaf ministries. You know that the Catholic church has a history of intentionally persecuting deaf people, calling them "cursed of God" and other things like that. If the pope is so powerful and is the hand of God on the earth, then how come he never healed the deaf or perform other miracles?

God created Mary, so how could Mary give birth to God.


4. Special Miracle.

So God ceased to exist until Mary gave birth? The Bible very clearly states that the Holy Spirit CAME UPON Mary. That is the same way Moses and Noah and other OT saints met the Spirit. Are they deity as well?

If my posts are insulting to you, then one of us is evil, and the other good. However, the good person doesn't complain like you are.

5. Or the good one doesn't try to insult. While the other enjoys it.

Good is insulted by evil, and evil by good. I don't find your posts to my liking, but the Bible says that if we don't love our neighbor as ourselves, we don't follow the second greatest commandment.

I haven't yet been insulted by your posts. A bit irked at the stain you put on the mark of a Christian, what with your inability to use the Bible, the basis of your beliefs, if you are a Christian that is.

6. So you seem to be able to project judgement with ease.

No, but the Bible does. I have spoken what the Bible says. If you are offended by what I said, you can take it up with God. The Bible says "Study to show thyself approved, a workman not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth.

But no, I have not been insulted yet. I hate the sin, not the sinner.


7. Atleast , that's good.

Well, that ain't much from a person who comes from the church that started the Crusades, the genocide of many Mexican tribes, and much more.

Finally, if you think that the earthly importance or size of a church determines where God is, remember that the early church used to meet in houses and catacombs. Not exactly my idea of important or big.

8. No, not so much importance, but who's holds down the fortress of our faith.

The Bible holds down the fortress of my faith. Jesus is my Cornerstone.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. You seem to be able to mix whats physical with whats spiritual with ease, and project judgement towards others at a drop of a hat.
2. I for one don't respect this in your character.
3. Does learning of Gawd from where ever your learnt it, put so much emphasis on being so judgemental of other Faiths?
4. There are many works that The Catholics provide for the deaf, and those who care for the deaf, google it.
5. I have heard the the Evangelists have been healing some deaf folks, maybe you should try and bring some of these deaf folks you have contact with to them and see if they can heal their ears, I would like to have a report if they can do it too.
6. Gawd can remain Gawd in in the womb of Mary.
7. So because I don't agree with you 100% doctrinally then you feel its your duty to rough me up I see?
8. I see the the Crusades are what's keeping you from understanding the Catholic Church, Religious Wars are untasteful, but we are in another one now, how does it make you feel? a) Sure its not directed at the Catholic Church, but its still Christians against the Islamics.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[forest_ranger254]

1. You seem to be able to mix whats physical with whats spiritual with ease, and project judgement towards others at a drop of a hat.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Looks like the Bible makes it pretty clear how the earth was created, and it was not by evolution. Evolution is not near to compatible with the Bible. With evolution, you remove the existence of God, because God screws up natural selection, one of the main engines behind evolution. If you actually care to read this, you will see that I have done my homework.

2. I for one don't respect this in your character.

Well, you jump to plenty of conclusions, so don't even go there.

3. Does learning of Gawd from where ever your learnt it, put so much emphasis on being so judgemental of other Faiths?

The Bible is where I learned of God. Jesus is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh unto the Father but by..." Him. If they do not come to God by Jesus, they do not come to God.

4. There are many works that The Catholics provide for the deaf, and those who care for the deaf, google it.

Well, for one they are using hundred year old alphabets. They ignore deaf culture, and they put deaf people through practices that deaf people cannot even stand. A deaf ministry is only effective if it uses their culture to reach them. You don't force a deaf person to learn how to speak English by forcing them through the lessons and playing with their face. That is as rude as me grabbing you and forcing you to learn Sign Language by playing with your hands. There is no effective Catholic deaf ministry. The alphabet is outdated, making it useless. All this from reading a Catholic encyclopedia that gives the methods used, which are pathological to deaf people

source: Catholic encyclopedia: Education of the deaf and dumb. (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05315a.htm)

5. I have heard the the Evangelists have been healing some deaf folks, maybe you should try and bring some of these deaf folks you have contact with to them and see if they can heal their ears, I would like to have a report if they can do it too.

You have heard wrong. There is no such act done, and it isn't even heard of in Baptist Churches. If you heard that, you heard a myth perpetuated in the Catholic Church.

6. Gawd can remain Gawd in in the womb of Mary.

Listen, God is a triune God. God the Son is the one who was born, and it is only an incarnation into an unborn baby; but it never mentions anywhere in the Bible that giving birth to Jesus made her a goddess. Matter of fact, if she was a deity, she would have known the Jesus was going to rise from the dead. However, the first thing she thinks is that someone took the body. Mary was human, and never was and wil never be a deity.

7. So because I don't agree with you 100% doctrinally then you feel its your duty to rough me up I see?

No, you don't agree with the Bible 100% doctrinally. And I haven't started roughing you up. If you would like me to show you what roughing you up looks like, just ask.

8. I see the the Crusades are what's keeping you from understanding the Catholic Church, Religious Wars are untasteful, but we are in another one now, how does it make you feel? a) Sure its not directed at the Catholic Church, but its still Christians against the Islamics.

This is a difference. The Crusades were for profit. Shoot, the fourth Crusade didn't even make it to Israel, it ended in Constantinople prior to the Muslim presence reaching there. That was purely for profit. The only Crusade the partially succeeded was the first, and the pope called the forces back, leaving it unguarded, and promising the soldiers a cut of the profits. It was unprecedented. In Iraq, you had a tyrant killing people by the hundreds, whatever their citizenship. a count of 200 American citizens have been killed in Iraq before the war. Terrorists were in Iraq. That is reason to go to war, Suddam knew we were coming. That is how you go to war, to help the helpless, not to get money.

[AlonzoMourning23]

Matter of fact, if she was a deity, she would have known the Jesus was going to rise from the dead. However, the first thing she thinks is that someone took the body. Mary was human, and never was and wil never be a deity.

Thank you for agreeing with the catholic church.

[forest_ranger254]

Matter of fact, if she was a deity, she would have known the Jesus was going to rise from the dead. However, the first thing she thinks is that someone took the body. Mary was human, and never was and wil never be a deity.

Thank you for agreeing with the catholic church.


The Catholic church prays to Mary as a deity. They worship her. That is my first-hand witness of the Catholic Church. My grandmother is a catholic. Every time I went there as a kid, we went to mass. Those people worshiped Mary.

[AlonzoMourning23]

Not true at all. I've known catholic priests, I've been to numerous masses, and I've read catholic theology. Mary is a very important person, she bore god. She is not a deity. She is a very special human.

Also, you claim all people who believe in evolution are atheists. First, that's absurd on the very fact that some religions, such as sikhism, do not have a creation story and have absolutely no religious conflict with it. Second though, if that's the case, then you're calling pope john paul II an atheist, despite your insistance that he worshipped not only jesus, but also mary as gods.

I am delighted with the first theme which you have chosen: the origin of life and evolution—an essential theme of lively interest to the Church, since Revelation contains some of its own teachings concerning the nature and origins of man. How should the conclusions reached by the diverse scientific disciplines be brought together with those contained in the message of Revelation? And if at first glance these views seem to clash with each other, where should we look for a solution? We know that the truth cannot contradict the truth. (Leo XIII, Providentissimus Deus) However, in order better to understand historical reality, your research into the relationships between the Church and the scientific community between the 16th and 18th centuries will have a great deal of importance......

Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than an hypothesis.*Â*Â*In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies—which was neither planned nor sought—constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory.

if the origin of the human body comes through living matter which existed previously, the spiritual soul is created directly by God.


http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP961022.HTM

The great atheist Pope right?

[forest_ranger254]

Not true at all. I've known catholic priests, I've been to numerous masses, and I've read catholic theology. Mary is a very important person, she bore god. She is not a deity. She is a very special human.

Also, you claim all people who believe in evolution are atheists. First, that's absurd on the very fact that some religions, such as sikhism, do not have a creation story and have absolutely no religious conflict with it. Second though, if that's the case, then you're calling pope john paul II an atheist, despite your insistance that he worshipped not only jesus, but also mary as gods.

I am delighted with the first theme which you have chosen: the origin of life and evolution—an essential theme of lively interest to the Church, since Revelation contains some of its own teachings concerning the nature and origins of man. How should the conclusions reached by the diverse scientific disciplines be brought together with those contained in the message of Revelation? And if at first glance these views seem to clash with each other, where should we look for a solution? We know that the truth cannot contradict the truth. (Leo XIII, Providentissimus Deus) However, in order better to understand historical reality, your research into the relationships between the Church and the scientific community between the 16th and 18th centuries will have a great deal of importance......

Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than an hypothesis.*Â*Â*In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies—which was neither planned nor sought—constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory.

if the origin of the human body comes through living matter which existed previously, the spiritual soul is created directly by God.


http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP961022.HTM

The great atheist Pope right?


Why pray to her if she is not deity?

[AlonzoMourning23]

Why pray to her if she is not deity?



In Luke 1:46 Mary states:

46 And Mary said, My soul magnifies the Lord"


In John 19: 25-27 it states:

25 Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala.

26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son."

27 Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother." And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.

Catholics do not pray to mary like they pray to Jesus. A prayer to Mary is akin to asking a very holy friend for assistance, asking them to pray for you.

Though I want to know whether you were wrong about "evolutionists" being atheists, or if you really believe Pope John Paul II was an atheist.

[forest_ranger254]

Why pray to her if she is not deity?



In Luke 1:46 Mary states:

46 And Mary said, My soul magnifies the Lord"


In John 19: 25-27 it states:

25 Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala.

26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son."

27 Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother." And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.

Catholics do not pray to mary like they pray to Jesus. A prayer to Mary is akin to asking a very holy friend for assistance, asking them to pray for you.

Though I want to know whether you were wrong about "evolutionists" being atheists, or if you really believe Pope John Paul II was an atheist.



the Bible says the following about confession of sins and prayer:

from David about his adultery and murder, two sins that you are required to pray to Mary for the forgiveness of:

Psalm 32:5
I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

No mention of Mary here, just direct prayer to God.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Nope, no Mary here either.

Romans 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Straight to God. Hmmmmm.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

No Mary mentioned here either.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Mary is not the mediator. JESUS IS.

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

"He" is Jesus. Not Mary.

Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 12:24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

[AlonzoMourning23]

According to Catholic theology, Mary is not the mediator.. She aids you in prayer, and she prays with you. When you pray to Jesus, Jesus does not aid in that prayer and pray with you for God's grace.

[forest_ranger254]

According to Catholic theology, Mary is not the mediator.. She aids you in prayer, and she prays with you. When you pray to Jesus, Jesus does not aid in that prayer and pray with you for God's grace.


Not according to the masses I went to. Mary was a mediator according to them. It is ridiculous. I have friends who used to be catholic, one who was described as the "uber-catholic." The premise is that Mary is the mediator. Unless you had a father who changed the doctrine quite a bit, you haven't been there.

[AlonzoMourning23]

Not according to the masses I went to. Mary was a mediator according to them. It is ridiculous. I have friends who used to be catholic, one who was described as the "uber-catholic." The premise is that Mary is the mediator. Unless you had a father who changed the doctrine quite a bit, you haven't been there.


What I'm saying is the teaching given by the vatican and catholic theologians. I've also grown up surrounded by Catholics and attended a catholic preparatory school. I've had plenty of exposure to catholicism, both in a formal setting and personal research outside of that. And if you want to be surrounded by catholicism, there likely isn't a stronger Catholic area in the country than the suburbs of Boston.

I think you're misunderstanding the intricacy of the theology. I think it's a combination of appearances being deceptive, and possibly lack of understanding on the part of your friends. It would be a mistake to conclude that people, even those very devout and strong in their beliefs, are always fully aware of the basis for their beliefs. In fact I think the follower who fully understands what they're doing, in any faith, isn't in the majority.

Also, the intricacies of the theological use of the word mediator is one that most do not fully grasp. And, again, I wouldn't go so far as to assume that everyone knows what they're doing or knows their faiths theology very well.

Though I find it odd that, while you incorrectly assume I'm basing it on the teachings of one priest, you use your own experience with a priest to attempt to nullify my argument.

[forest_ranger254]

What I'm saying is the teaching given by the vatican and catholic theologians. I've also grown up surrounded by Catholics and attended a catholic preparatory school. I've had plenty of exposure to catholicism, both in a formal setting and personal research outside of that. And if you want to be surrounded by catholicism, there likely isn't a stronger Catholic area in the country than the suburbs of Boston.

I think you're misunderstanding the intricacy of the theology. I think it's a combination of appearances being deceptive, and possibly lack of understanding on the part of your friends. It would be a mistake to conclude that people, even those very devout and strong in their beliefs, are always fully aware of the basis for their beliefs. In fact I think the follower who fully understands what they're doing, in any faith, isn't in the majority.

Also, the intricacies of the theological use of the word mediator is one that most do not fully grasp. And, again, I wouldn't go so far as to assume that everyone knows what they're doing or knows their faiths theology very well.

Though I find it odd that, while you incorrectly assume I'm basing it on the teachings of one priest, you use your own experience with a priest to attempt to nullify my argument.


I think I understand where you are coming from. I am talking about Roman Catholics and you are talking about Western Catholics. I went to a Roman Catholic mass. RC's do worship Mary.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. Mary is as close as you can get for a Human Being being Gawd, but she is not Gawd.
2. She carried Gawd in her womb, and this intimate exposure to Gawd and the fact that Mary was placed in this position to bare the Gawd of the Universe, inside of her womb and body, gives her a Special Place in Creation, to those who believe in Gawd, and his Holy Redemptive Power, for Humankind's rescue, from itself.
3. To belittle the fact that Mary the Mother of Gawd, for a time, thou Gawd knows no time, but she did, has certain ramifications on time, and shows that Mary is indeed a Very Special Human Being.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[AlonzoMourning23]

I think I understand where you are coming from. I am talking about Roman Catholics and you are talking about Western Catholics. I went to a Roman Catholic mass. RC's do worship Mary.


The roman catholic church is sometimes called the western church, in comparison to the eastern orthodox church. Other than that I don't know what you mean.

The fact is that roman catholics do not worship mary. Look through any document on vatican theology, as there are many, not one calls for worship of mary, and they oppose it.

I'm also not sure how a school, associated with the boston roman catholic archdiocese, is somehow not roman catholic.

Your own religious prejudices are clouding your judgement. Catholics do not worship mary.

[forest_ranger254]

The roman catholic church is sometimes called the western church, in comparison to the eastern orthodox church. Other than that I don't know what you mean.

The fact is that roman catholics do not worship mary. Look through any document on vatican theology, as there are many, not one calls for worship of mary, and they oppose it.

I'm also not sure how a school, associated with the boston roman catholic archdiocese, is somehow not roman catholic.

Your own religious prejudices are clouding your judgement. Catholics do not worship mary.


Well, I know of at least five churches that screwed up both ways, they messed up the Bible and the doctrine of catholicism. And asking a dead person to pray for you is nowhere near biblical. You cannot pray for another's salvation.

[AlonzoMourning23]

Well, I know of at least five churches that screwed up both ways, they messed up the Bible and the doctrine of catholicism. And asking a dead person to pray for you is nowhere near biblical. You cannot pray for another's salvation.


Show me a vatican document that advocates worship of Mary.

You don't believe in heaven? And you think asking for help from people in heaven is against the bible?

[forest_ranger254]

Show me a vatican document that advocates worship of Mary.

You don't believe in heaven? And you think asking for help from people in heaven is against the bible?



1. Though the Catholic church strives to maintain unity on the outside, that doesn't mean different churches won't have different values. No matter what the pope says, each different church. I believe in heaven, but you don't pray to someone other than God. God is the only person who will hear you. I tell you that they cannot and will not help you.
2. On to the next part, the Bible is the only inspired book. I don't care what the vatican documents say.
Revelation 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

[AlonzoMourning23]

Show me a vatican document that advocates worship of Mary.

You don't believe in heaven? And you think asking for help from people in heaven is against the bible?



1. Though the Catholic church strives to maintain unity on the outside, that doesn't mean different churches won't have different values. No matter what the pope says, each different church. I believe in heaven, but you don't pray to someone other than God. God is the only person who will hear you. I tell you that they cannot and will not help you.
2. On to the next part, the Bible is the only inspired book. I don't care what the vatican documents say.
Revelation 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:




I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to them, may God add to him the plagues which are written in this book.

It refers to altering the text of the book. Catholic aren't altering or adding to the bible.

I still want you to show me evidence of Catholics worshipping mary. Show me documents or something.

All you have is your own experience, considering your prejudice towards catholics and the complete lack of agreement on anything between you and me, I have no reason to believe your experience accurately reflects the theological perspective of the churches you attended.

But I find it odd, you so staunchly oppose catholics, yet the Bible itself was compiled by Catholics, and which books were to be included or not included was decided by Catholics. And for years translating and copying biblical texts was carried solely by Catholics.

[forest_ranger254]

It refers to altering the text of the book. Catholic aren't altering or adding to the bible.

Vatican documents??? Documents that support the idolatry of the church? That not only is adding to the Bible, It is going directly against the Bible.

I still want you to show me evidence of Catholics worshipping mary. Show me documents or something.

Hows about you come to Jacksonville or go to the catholic church in Flat Rock, Michigan. I have attended two in Jacksonville, and have friends from two others in Flat Rock.

All you have is your own experience, considering your prejudice towards catholics and the complete lack of agreement on anything between you and me, I have no reason to believe your experience accurately reflects the theological perspective of the churches you attended.

Considering the fact that you haven't argued consistently yet, Your testimony here is not too reliable. Let's see, a person who argues for and against the Bible. You definitely are not a Christian from your posts. At best, you are a scientologist.

But I find it odd, you so staunchly oppose catholics, yet the Bible itself was compiled by Catholics, and which books were to be included or not included was decided by Catholics. And for years translating and copying biblical texts was carried solely by Catholics.


Incorrect. That would be assuming that it was compiled at the council of Niceae. It was first put in an official order by Martin Luther, who put the book of John into the back with the apocrypha. It was finalized by the 70 scholars who assembled the Authorized KJV in 1611, and editted into the modern English language in 1725.

[AlonzoMourning23]

Vatican documents??? Documents that support the idolatry of the church? That not only is adding to the Bible, It is going directly against the Bible.

They are not adding to the bible. They do not change the bible. They exist apart from the bible and are distinct from the bible.


Hows about you come to Jacksonville or go to the catholic church in Flat Rock, Michigan. I have attended two in Jacksonville, and have friends from two others in Flat Rock.

You are arguing that catholicism worships mary. Give me evidence.


Considering the fact that you haven't argued consistently yet, Your testimony here is not too reliable. Let's see, a person who argues for and against the Bible. You definitely are not a Christian from your posts. At best, you are a scientologist.

I can argue my own opinion, and I can argue scripture. If I were to argue the point of view of the torah I would be making a different argument than if I were to argue the point of view of the bible.

And, while I'd certainly like to see proof on how I'm not christian, I doubt I'm a scientologist, considering I'm working towards a degree in psychology.


Incorrect. That would be assuming that it was compiled at the council of Niceae. It was first put in an official order by Martin Luther, who put the book of John into the back with the apocrypha. It was finalized by the 70 scholars who assembled the Authorized KJV in 1611, and editted into the modern English language in 1725.


Luther translated the bible into german to make it more accessable to commoners. He did not add or remove books, he only changed the order of some.

The king james version was an attempt at an authoritative, more accurate translation of the bible. But the books of the bible where chosen by the Catholic Church. They decided what books presented the viewpoint that was going to define christianity. They decided what was acceptable and what was heretical.

[forest_ranger254]

They are not adding to the bible. They do not change the bible. They exist apart from the bible and are distinct from the bible.

They are considered inspired works to be upheld more than the Bible. The ONLY inspired book is the Bible.

You are arguing that catholicism worships mary. Give me evidence.

I just did. I gave you four churches and their cities. There is only one catholic church near the Jacksonville School for the Deaf and Blind out in St Augustine, only one on Wells Road on the northside, and only two of them in the city of Flat Rock, Michigan. What I am saying is either they screwed up, or that is the norm of catholic belief. You have had a fair sampling, I have had a fair sampling. Either way, on my forays into catholicism, the people there worshipped Mary. And either way, Mary is not to be prayed to. That is not biblical, and I guarantee that there is nothing in the Bible to support the assertion.

I can argue my own opinion, and I can argue scripture. If I were to argue the point of view of the torah I would be making a different argument than if I were to argue the point of view of the bible.

Then what the heck are you? A person who wears two faces soon forgets which one is real. And I already have.

And, while I'd certainly like to see proof on how I'm not christian, I doubt I'm a scientologist, considering I'm working towards a degree in psychology.

Well, I hold a point of view that Catholics rely on their own works to get to heaven. That is not Christianity. Christianity includes that we are saved by grace, through faith, not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.

Luther translated the bible into german to make it more accessable to commoners. He did not add or remove books, he only changed the order of some.

And he put the books he deemed unscriptural into a section with other unscriptural books. That is the prelude to cutting out the apocrypha.

The king james version was an attempt at an authoritative, more accurate translation of the bible. But the books of the bible where chosen by the Catholic Church. They decided what books presented the viewpoint that was going to define christianity. They decided what was acceptable and what was heretical.


Do you not get it. James wanted a book apart from both Protestantism and Catholicism. HE didn't care where the books came from, so long as it wasn't authorized by catholics. Secondly, all the books of the New Testament were compiled in 200-300 AD in the Codex Sinaiticus. None of the books in that were compiled by the catholic church. The theory that they were compiled by the catholics is laughable at best. What happened to the compilations that exist to this day from the 300-400 AD era. Three codexes exist. The Roman Catholic church was nonexistent at the time. Shoot, the Christians were still in the persecution phase.

[AlonzoMourning23]

They are considered inspired works to be upheld more than the Bible. The ONLY inspired book is the Bible.

Church tradition is not considered more valuable than the bible. They are considered equal.

2 Timothy 2:2
And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.

John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.


I just did. I gave you four churches and their cities. There is only one catholic church near the Jacksonville School for the Deaf and Blind out in St Augustine, only one on Wells Road on the northside, and only two of them in the city of Flat Rock, Michigan. What I am saying is either they screwed up, or that is the norm of catholic belief. You have had a fair sampling, I have had a fair sampling. Either way, on my forays into catholicism, the people there worshipped Mary. And either way, Mary is not to be prayed to. That is not biblical, and I guarantee that there is nothing in the Bible to support the assertion.

Well, there is a passage (that I quoted earlier) where mary says her soul magnifies the lord.

But your understanding of events there is not evidence, especially when what I'm challenging is your understanding. You're making an accusation and refusing to present hard evidence. If an organization as large as the Catholic Church actually worships Mary, there'd be some record of it.



Then what the heck are you? A person who wears two faces soon forgets which one is real. And I already have.

So I can have no understanding of things beyond my own opinion? I cannot understand the arguments presented by others?

And why should I tell you what religion I am? Even if it helps here, it's easier to debate when my religion isn't pinned down.


Well, I hold a point of view that Catholics rely on their own works to get to heaven. That is not Christianity. Christianity includes that we are saved by grace, through faith, not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.

When I presented stories by Jesus arguing that works where essential, all you did was present scripture, most of which was not from Jesus, saying something else. You did nothing to invalidate the idea that works are important.


And he put the books he deemed unscriptural into a section with other unscriptural books. That is the prelude to cutting out the apocrypha.

He did not cut it out. Every book you read in the bible was put their by the church.


Do you not get it. James wanted a book apart from both Protestantism and Catholicism. HE didn't care where the books came from, so long as it wasn't authorized by catholics.

Last I checked he didn't throw out or add any books.

Secondly, all the books of the New Testament were compiled in 200-300 AD in the Codex Sinaiticus. None of the books in that were compiled by the catholic church. The theory that they were compiled by the catholics is laughable at best. What happened to the compilations that exist to this day from the 300-400 AD era. Three codexes exist. The Roman Catholic church was nonexistent at the time. Shoot, the Christians were still in the persecution phase.


The Codex Sainaiticus is from the middle of the 4th century. Persecution of Christians ended in 313 under constantine. Constantine even gave property to the Pope. The Church had long been established by this point. Whether you want to argue that so much changed that, realistically, they're a different church then fine. But there history of the Catholic Church goes back long before Constantine even came to power. It was the persecution of christians that caused them to decided what would be Church teaching. If you're going to die for something you might as well be dying for the correct version.

[forest_ranger254]

Church tradition is not considered more valuable than the bible. They are considered equal.

2 Timothy 2:2
And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.

John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

Matthew 15
1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,

2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.


Mark 7:8
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Mark 7:9
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Galatians 1:14
And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

1 Peter 1:18
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed w