How do you feel about a Livable Wage?

[MAP2010.wireless]

Hi,

I hear all the time about Min Wage, But what is Min Wage?
Is that to say its the Min that people can live with?
Or is it to say its the Min an Employer has to pay.

Heres the Point,

Companies want good Employees and Employees need to pay bills, If you pay your Employees good they can pay their bills.

Livable Wage, This means that its the Min Wage for people to make a living and is where the Pay should start.

In San Antonio Texas where I'm from you have to make $10.00 an Hr right now I'm in California and its Should be $15.00.

I hear People talk about "No We Should Not Rise Min Wage!!!!!!"
Places like Wal-Mart and K-Mart pay Min Wage, We should have a Livable Wage.

I'm Pro-Union and I'm a Small Business Owner, But I know you must take care of you workers if not they have the right to go Union so they can be Protect from unfair wages.


Mark

[MAP2010.wireless]

Speak up and make your point.

[Elrathin]

Speak up and make your point.


First what is your point? Is min wage bad or good to you?

[MAP2010.wireless]

LOL, you have to ask?
You should read it once more.

[Elrathin]

LOL, you have to ask?
You should read it once more.


How about a simple answer do you think min wage is good or bad? Answer the question, it's not THAT hard.

[MAP2010.wireless]

LOL, you have to ask?
You should read it once more.


How about a simple answer do you think min wage is good or bad?Â*Â*Answer the question, it's not THAT hard.


I'm Pro-Union

[Labrocca]

I agree with much of your post MAP2010. I used to own a small business as well and I paid BETTER than the current min wage and even better than the change in min-wage. It's stupid to raise it on a federal level. It should be a state requirement since each state has different living expenses. Iowa is cheap to live while New York $7 an hour doesn't get you anywhere.

I am pro-union where it's needed but I feel more regulation should be done there. Unions shouldn't be allowed to bankrupt a company...and at the same time CEO's should be making 400x the average workers salary. 20 years ago it was 10x and for many countries it still is. CEO's are raping americas companies.

[MAP2010.wireless]

I agree with much of your post MAP2010.Â*Â*I used to own a small business as well and I paid BETTER than the current min wage and even better than the change in min-wage.Â*Â*It's stupid to raise it on a federal level.Â*Â*It should be a state requirement since each state has different living expenses.Â*Â*Iowa is cheap to live while New York $7 an hour doesn't get you anywhere.

I am pro-union where it's needed but I feel more regulation should be done there. Unions shouldn't be allowed to bankrupt a company...and at the same time CEO's should be making 400x the average workers salary.Â*Â*20 years ago it was 10x and for many countries it still is.Â*Â*CEO's are raping americas companies.


That just how i feel.
Right too the point.

Mark

[firefox]

I am for fair wages agreed upon by the employers and the employees, without dangerous government intervention. There are two important reasons why this should be the case, though there are many others:

1. Most people earn more than the min wage, so this is really irrelevant.
2. Unnaturally high wages drive up product costs and prevent many from being able to afford to hire new employees. This hurts women, the poor, minorities, and young people working part-time the most. If you care about underprivelaged groups, you can't be for hour and wage restrictions/requirements.

[cs0564]

Ok you guys had me until you said "PRO-UNION". The Union is ruining our country by any means necessary! Minimum wage should be increased. Salaries for teachers and Police should be increased! Lawyers should probably take a pay cut! Most unions are ran by idiots who do not seem to get it.

Case in point: Uniforms were requested by the CWA for building mechanics. Management came back with 5 uniforms for each mechanic. The CWA requested that the uniforms be dry cleaned weekly. Management said no. CWA then decided to reject the 5 uniforms. To me this doesn't make any sense. Guess what they are wearing now. Clothing that they have to buy and wash themselves.

[firefox]

Are you union, cs? I'm a college student with good skills and experience. I think we should have some fair competition and let the best provider serve the customer, eh? Enough with the protectionism for industries, companies, and labor demographics that refuse to change with the times. Where did the free market republicans of old go and who left these government loving impersonators?

[MAP2010.wireless]

Are you union, cs? I'm a college student with good skills and experience. I think we should have some fair competition and let the best provider serve the customer, eh? Enough with the protectionism for industries, companies, and labor demographics that refuse to change with the times. Where did the free market republicans of old go and who left these government loving impersonators?


I'm a small business owner, I know if you treat your workers good you have them as good customers. If you pay your workers almost nothing and give no benifits, You should not wounder why they are sick and not at work. And you should not ask why is the turn over so high?

Their needs to be a give and take, Unions are made up of Hard works who work at that company. That company will not look out for their employees, but they will look out for themselfs. Unions look out for their members, if comanies did not treat their works bad there would be no Unions.

If you treat your works with respect and pay them what they should be paid and give them good benifits. They can be trained and work harder, and because they work hard they make the company more.

That a Win Win deal, it takes a Livable Wage for your works to live and do better.

[cs0564]

Are you union, cs? I'm a college student with good skills and experience. I think we should have some fair competition and let the best provider serve the customer, eh? Enough with the protectionism for industries, companies, and labor demographics that refuse to change with the times. Where did the free market republicans of old go and who left these government loving impersonators?



No union for me! Unions HAD a place back then, but are way over rated now. Unions are NOT competitive and their isn't anything fair about them. They are usually ran by their own memebers who generally have no skills for running a business which a Union is. I would be open to any "good" reason a Union should be the first choice for a employee. I cannot think of one myself. If I do not like where I am I will go someplace else. The normal give and take that most company's can do with their employees gets tossed out the window when the union rep walks in the door. I have worked with both and I prefer non-union employees over union. They generally appreciate their job more and work harder for the benefit of the company!

[MAP2010.wireless]

Are you union, cs? I'm a college student with good skills and experience. I think we should have some fair competition and let the best provider serve the customer, eh? Enough with the protectionism for industries, companies, and labor demographics that refuse to change with the times. Where did the free market republicans of old go and who left these government loving impersonators?



No union for me!Â*Â*Unions HAD a place back then, but are way over rated now.Â*Â*Unions are NOT competitive and their isn't anything fair about them. They are usually ran by their own memebers who generally have no skills for running a business which a Union is.Â*Â*I would be open to any "good" reason a Union should be the first choice for a employee.Â*Â*I cannot think of one myself.Â*Â*If I do not like where I am I will go someplace else.Â*Â*The normal give and take that most company's can do with their employees gets tossed out the window when the union rep walks in the door.Â*Â*I have worked with both and I prefer non-union employees over union.Â*Â*They generally appreciate their job more and work harder for the benefit of the company!


Look Non-Union workers are told you will make more if you do more, Then they say oh I'm sorry we are no longer going to do that.

I know I worked for Sprint PCS for sometime and was told if I setup B2B location I would be the BAR "Business Account Rep" and make $50,000.00 starting I did the work and they said we can't do that sorry. So I said ok bye, and they did not know how to handle that project do it ended. They lost all new sales it could have made them.
But because they LIE, I opened my own Company and I will do right for my employees.

[BoogyMan]

I have to be honest, a governmentally mandated minimum wage increase scares me. I agree that it should be increased to a more reasonable wage, but the government, irrespective of circumstance, laying out the numbers makes me shiver.

I would have to agree with CS as far as unions go. I won't go so far as to say that they are run by idiots, but I do believe that they truly don't serve the members they claim to so highly respect and prize.

[MAP2010.wireless]

I have to be honest, a governmentally mandated minimum wage increase scares me.Â*Â*I agree that it should be increased to a more reasonable wage, but the government, irrespective of circumstance, laying out the numbers makes me shiver.

I would have to agree with CS as far as unions go.Â*Â*I won't go so far as to say that they are run by idiots, but I do believe that they truly don't serve the members they claim to so highly respect and prize.


Two parts:

One (Union): Yes they are not all Smart and Business Managers, but they do the best they can.
Yes they sometimes do wrong and take money and brake the law.

Two (Livable Wage): When a Min Wage is put in place this means the company forces their customers to pay this cost, Livable Wage would be per-state and would be an average for that area. And if that area was high cost to live so would the Livable Wage.
But you have to pay your worker good, they need to live.

[Labrocca]

I can be anti-union at times but with CEOs making 400x times the average worker in many sectors it's only the unions that are preventing the CEOs from raping more and forcing them to share profits with their hard workings employees.

Often unions are run by idiots...often companies have idiots for CEOs..guess what...people are just in general idiots. So that's irrelevent.

Also unions are a product of a free market and capitalism at it's best. Unions get formed when employees are not treated fairly or paid properly. Nothing is perfect or all good but unions imho have done well for the American worker and our economy.

This min-wage increase though as I stated...is pointless and possibly harmful.

[MAP2010.wireless]

I can be anti-union at times but with CEOs making 400x times the average worker in many sectors it's only the unions that are preventing the CEOs from raping more and forcing them to share profits with their hard workings employees.

Often unions are run by idiots...often companies have idiots for CEOs..guess what...people are just in general idiots.Â*Â*So that's irrelevent.

Also unions are a product of a free market and capitalism at it's best.Â*Â*Unions get formed when employees are not treated fairly or paid properly.Â*Â*Nothing is perfect or all good but unions imho have done well for the American worker and our economy.

This min-wage increase though as I stated...is pointless and possibly harmful.


Well just like I'm for Cutting Programs that don't work, then taking that money and using it for better ones. If you can give it back to the Tax payers. But if we have to raise taxies then it should be done, but only after cutting not working and out dated programs.

And when it comes to Wages it should be based on where they are from.

If we had a Livable Wage we may not even need Unions as much.


Mark

[firefox]

I am fundamentally not anti union proper, but I have an issue when they get in bed with government to screw everyone else over for their own benefit, as most of them do now. If some of these lesser unions especially were smart, they would call the big boys out on this, because who knows then the tide will turn against them.

[MAP2010.wireless]

I am fundamentally not anti union proper, but I have an issue when they get in bed with government to screw everyone else over for their own benefit, as most of them do now. If some of these lesser unions especially were smart, they would call the big boys out on this, because who knows then the tide will turn against them.


Well its only as good as the people who are part of that Union.

[firefox]

Very true. We both know what they say about power and corruption!

[MAP2010.wireless]

Very true. We both know what they say about power and corruption!


That is so true, It is so hard not to let it goto your head.
You have to work hard not to become power hungry.

Mark

[dgridley]

I think increasing the minimum isn't enough.. raise the minimum and prices rise because companies now how to pay their employees more so the benefit, if any, is very short-lived.

Here in Missouri they plan to raise the state minimum wage from $5.15 to $6.50 an hour. That's an improvement but who can actually live on that without other assistance (subsidized rent, medicaid, food stamps). A wage that allows people to live as they should would be great but where does the money to pay those wages come from?

[underdawg]

I think that raising the minimun wage is a good start, but as long as more and more of the good jobs are being outsoursed to other countries, and the gap between the rich and the poor increases, the poor will always slip through the cracks.

What needs to happen is that lobbyists should be driven from Capital Hill. People's voices should not be drowned out by the influence of money and power.

Corporations should be made to pay their fair share of taxes, and the loopholes that they use to keep from paying taxes should be eliminated.

Companies that keep jobs here in this country, and use their own money to train people for jobs, should be given tax breaks and monetary rewards. Companies that outsourse jobs should be made to pay higher taxes in order to remain in this country.

[MAP2010.wireless]

I think increasing the minimum isn't enough.. raise the minimum and prices rise because companies now how to pay their employees more so the benefit, if any, is very short-lived.

Here in Missouri they plan to raise the state minimum wage from $5.15 to $6.50 an hour. That's an improvement but who can actually live on that without other assistance (subsidized rent, medicaid, food stamps). A wage that allows people to live as they should would be great but where does the money to pay those wages come from?


You can have two thing.

(1) You can give a Livable Wage and they can work for their living and be happy.

Or

(2) You can pay them almost nothing and they will get (subsidized rent, medicaid, food stamps), so if they can less per hr you still have to pay to make it up when they get (subsidized rent, medicaid, food stamps).

Show people when they work they are worth it, Show them when they work they can make a Livable Wage. So many people say why should i work when I can make more from doing nothing?

You can't live on $5.15 per hr and $6.50 is not going to do anything at all.

How about a (Worker Bonus Program) This would be for workers who make $5.00 to $10.00 an hr, Just like tax programs where you get more back from how many kids you have to more in Bonuses you could get.

If you work 30-40 hrs you can get points, the point system would be non-taxible income you would get.

Why? Because Right now if that person can't get a good job you will be paying for them anyways. Why not have something so help them be happy for what they make themselfs.

Mark

[Nathan Brazil]

I'm a small business owner, I know if you treat your workers good you have them as good customers. If you pay your workers almost nothing and give no benifits, You should not wounder why they are sick and not at work. And you should not ask why is the turn over so high?

There's a difference between a business owner CHOOSING to set wages and benefits to meet whatever the hell he wants them to meet, for whatever reason, and the government FORCING him to pay expenses that he doesn't otherwise need to pay.

If I can get busboys and dishwashers to do the job for two bucks an hour, who the hell is anyone else to order me to pay more?

Their needs to be a give and take,

There is. If I can't find people to take the two dollars an hour I'm offering to give them, I have to look around to see if I can find someone to take $2.10, or $2.15, or if the dishes are piling up, $3.00 or more, until the "give and take" of the free market is satisfied, I have washed dishes and they have a pay check.

It's no one's business but mine and their's what they agree to work for.

Unions are made up of Hard works who work at that company.

Oh, not really. You should learn more about real unions. They're made up of people, just like any other club, and the goal of any union club is to protect jobs...no matter how outdated. The unions forced the railroads to carry firemen on diesel engines. They didn't have any coal to shovel. They didn't do anything. But they had a "job".

That company will not look out for their employees, but they will look out for themselfs.

Unions look out for their members, if comanies did not treat their works bad there would be no Unions.

Not Boeing's unions. Specifically the engineer's union. Those union leaders do nothing but protect their own jobs, engineers at Boeing are actually paid less than engineers at other aerospace companies.

[Nathan Brazil]

No union for me!Â*Â*Unions HAD a place back then, but are way over rated now.Â*Â*Unions are NOT competitive and their isn't anything fair about them.

Don't be silly. Unions have a place in industry. Why should a company have to negotiate with every janitor they hire? And certainly the employees have the freedom to organize and nominate representatives for negotiations with management. What the unions shouldn't have is the freedom to be thugs, that they enjoy now. If they demand more than the company is willing to pay, they can walk out. Fine. They shouldn't be permitted to prevent the permanent hiring of replacement workers, and the permanent firing of the people who got replaced.

[firefox]

I completely agree. Even if you're still in favor of some of these other things that unions do, remember that government force is a system of karma. You will reap what you sow, sooner or later.

[Nathan Brazil]

It's not the government's business if a bunch of workers decide to join together and bargain collectively.

The only role the government has in employer/employee relations is to ensure that the basics of prevention of criminal activity are adhered to. No blockading of work sites, no sabotage by employees, no harassment of replacement workers, no interfering with the general public.

On the other side of the coin, the employer can't withhold pensions or paychecks or other assets it may hold, it will have to continue meeting the terms of whatever contracts are still valid, and it can't hire it's own thugs to chase off demonstrators not on company property.

But there's nothing wrong with firing trouble makers, or not rehiring them when the strike is over. Nor is there anything wrong with sharing names with companions in industry.

When true fairness is applied, unions have a tough time forcing wages up way past the value of the worker, like they are today. That's why unions don't argue for real fairness, they want to maintain their monopoly on violence.

[DearS]

I'm sure that a reasonable living wage, while being able to stay profitable is possible. Although new regulations might need to be big turn arounds.

Perhaps capping the total net-worth of an individual at $1 billion. Currency then cannot be influenced by a few individuals to a such degree. Better yet tax a corporations net worth. So business will better use their money hiring more, becoming efficient/productive or paying more. In either case, world currency will be distributed more evenly. Not to mention no business or person will be immune from taxes. The government can also then give more currency to those that make below the living wage. Which will result in more profits (less expenses) for business, which again the government can tax or business use for hiring or paying folks. The businesses can have the option of paying more for skilled folk. The system includes everybody working together, yet independently.

perhaps its better to tax billionares lots and lots, then cap their net worth.

A direct increase to living wage, might make the nations economy unable to trade resonably with other nations.

[Nathan Brazil]

I'm sure that a reasonable living wage, while being able to stay profitable is possible. Although new regulations might need to be big turn arounds.

Sure. But it's the employer's choice, not the mob, and not the government.

Perhaps capping the total net-worth of an individual at $1 billion.

American Reporter to Comrade in newly released former Soviet slave state:

"Is it true that socialism is about sharing?"

Comrade: "Yes, it is. We share everting in old republic."

AR: "So if you two cows, and your neighbor didn't have any, what would you do?"

C: "I'd give one of my cows to my neighbor."

AR: "That's wonderful. What if you had to pigs, would you give one to a neighbor that didn't have any?"

C: "Yes, of course."

AR: "This is great stuff for the folks back home. And if you had two chickens, you'd share them too, right."

C: "mmmmm..."

AR: "You mean you'd share a whole cow, and a whole pig with your neighbors, but you wouldn't share a single chicken?"

C: "It's like this...I have two chickens."

Why cap net worth at a billion? Why not limit to a million?

Shoot, with so many many poor people around, let's cap net worth at a quarter million. Many many people don't have that.

Let me guess.

You have a quarter million in assets, or reasonable expect to earn them.

Right?

[firefox]

If so, does that mean we get to steal from him as long as a majority of us agree to it? :D

[candi123pool]

I beleive America must do what is a totaly American thing to do, and that is the pursuit of wealth!

Money is why we work, its capitalism my freind! Competition is what makes our products better, services better, football and basketball players better!

Lately we as a people have gotten lost in the greed, and not the capitalistic competiton that once made our products an services the best in the world!

I propose an idea that will bring back the true persute of wealth in America, that will truly give everyone a slice of the American pie!
And make the question of a livable or minimum wage a thing of the past.

I propose wages based on profit sharing. I propose owners of all bussiness be owned by the people runing them. That to get a job in lets say for example a auto manufacturing company, you buy your position! That you must meet qulifications of corse but non the less you purchase your position like a shair holder in the company and work in the position that you paid for training to do, and paid to own. The better you do your job, the more money the company as a whole makes, and your pay is based on the profit arranged like the value of your position. The company makes huge profits, you make a larger paycheck, as you do a better job and gain tenier then the value of you in that postion goes up.

If you want to quit your job, you just sell your position, and the other company owners can vote on the purchaser. Based on the required training and quilifications of the purchaser. The company holders can decide the price he or she should pay for the postion. The other company holders can purchase that position for themselves to perhaps work in and earn extra profit.

If you do a lousy job, the company owners can vote you out, and give you the money value of your job.

Here you have voting, capitialism, you keep the job in America, and you truly have the chance at the American dream. Every one can proffit, not just a few wile the rest bust there ass for a livable wage!

You will have true competiton for producing a quality product, and all workers will have a new insperation for going to work and doing a good job!

antibsh@yahoo.com

[firefox]

Candi, I like your idea. There are more "coop" type businesses out there these days, and they should be encouraged. Just don't attempt to do it through government because it always backfires! On a similar note, one of my jobs is with a company that uses something of a distributed model.

[Nathan Brazil]

[quote=candi123poolI propose wages based on profit sharing. I propose owners of all bussiness be owned by the people runing them.[/quote]

First you spew some bullshit about how you support the American Way, and then you totally reverse yourself by spewing Marxist droppings.

[IRoNiK]

A livable wage is definitely a good thing. Some places are more expensive to live than others, for example, anywhere in California is much more expensive than houston.

but its hard to set a minimum wage that would apply everywhere. Plus, there has to be incentives to go farther in education, which should reward you with a higher paying job.

but i agree, minimum wage is pathetic right now and should be raised at least a little. small businesses would not hurt, in fact, if everyone got paid more, they would spend more, and so the money would all end up back in the economy. This christmas, the average american (according to fox news) is spending $800 on gifts. This is quite amazing for the economy.

[Nathan Brazil]

it's hard to set a minimum wage that would apply everywhere

That's easy. Set $0.00 as the minimum hourly wage (wouldn't want the employees paying the employer, hey?), and then let nature take it's course.

People that can't live on $4.00 an hour washing dishes shouldn't demand to get paid more, they should get their stupid asses into a better job. And WFT are they doing having families before they can afford to support them? And sure, I'll be glad to lay some of the blame on the bimbette of the family that got herself knocked up knowing full well that her boinking partner wasn't good enough to support his family.

There used to be standards in this society. As soon as the low-lives figured out they could pick the pockets of the useful people, those standards disappeared. Liberalism, what a damn stupid idea.

[firefox]

I know some of you are probably still for a min wage after all this. However, check this out: The main reason why higher and higher wages don't cut it is because of inflation, right? Therefore, if we return to sound money (here's a free market example (http://www.libertydollar.org/)), a constant wage will always buy you the same amount of stuff. Actually, that same wage will get you MORE stuff over the long term as goods and services become cheaper through improved technology, etc.!

[Oedipus Rex]

There's no such thing as a 'livable wage'.

I'm all for a minimum wage for the village idiots. I just don't think the minimum wage should be viewed as being sufficient to live on. That's silly. The minimum wage should be a stepping stone towards a wage that is sufficient to live on.

[firefox]

In this case, why have one? The equillibrium labor cost should be sufficient. Eliminating all these production taxes would drastically lower the cost of goods and services as well. For example, lets say a product has 5 steps of production and each one is taxed an average of 5%. That's about 25% added cost that doesn't need to be there (5x5%).

[MAP2010.wireless]

There's no such thing as a 'livable wage'.

I'm all for a minimum wage for the village idiots. I just don't think the minimum wage should be viewed as being sufficient to live on. That's silly. The minimum wage should be a stepping stone towards a wage that is sufficient to live on.


Well there are a lot of good people who work for minimum wage, they work hard and try to put food on the table. Because they can't they have food stamps and because they can't pay rent they need housing, this Money they get comes from others who work and makes it harder on them to make money and have food on their tables.

People say if we pay more the everything will cost more, but what about all that money for food stamps and housing? If you pay more then you get more and that person will want to do even more.

Some people don't care about others and how they live, not all of us are gifted with greatness. We should help others who need help.

One more point: If we pay more less will need help with foodstamps and housing. You save money and people work for what they get.

$5.15 is a joke.

Mark Pendergraft

[MAP2010.wireless]

I beleive America must do what is a totaly American thing to do, and that is the pursuit of wealth!

Money is why we work, its capitalism my freind!Â*Â*Competition is what makes our products better, services better, football and basketball players better!

Lately we as a people have gotten lost in the greed, and not the capitalistic competiton that once made our products an services the best in the world!

I propose an idea that will bring back the true persute of wealth in America, that will truly give everyone a slice of the American pie!
And make the question of a livable or minimum wage a thing of the past.

I propose wages based on profit sharing. I propose owners of all bussiness be owned by the people runing them. That to get a job in lets say for example a auto manufacturing company, you buy your position! That you must meet qulifications of corse but non the less you purchase your position like a shair holder in the company and work in the position that you paid for training to do, and paid to own. The better you do your job, the more money the company as a whole makes, and your pay is based on the profit arranged like the value of your position. The company makes huge profits, you make a larger paycheck, as you do a better job and gain tenier then the value of you in that postion goes up.

If you want to quit your job, you just sell your position, and the other company owners can vote on the purchaser. Based on the required training and quilifications of the purchaser. The company holders can decide the price he or she should pay for the postion. The other company holders can purchase that position for themselves to perhaps work in and earn extra profit.

If you do a lousy job, the company owners can vote you out, and give you the money value of your job.

Here you have voting, capitialism, you keep the job in America, and you truly have the chance at the American dream. Every one can proffit, not just a few wile the rest bust there ass for a livable wage!

You will have true competiton for producing a quality product, and all workers will have a new insperation for going to work and doing a good job!

antibsh@yahoo.com



"I propose wages based on profit sharing. I propose owners of all bussiness be owned by the people runing them."

I really like that Idea, I don't know if all it would work but good Idea.

Mark

[Oedipus Rex]

"I propose wages based on profit sharing. I propose owners of all bussiness be owned by the people runing them."

I really like that Idea, I don't know if all it would work but good Idea.

Mark



I'd close my business in a heartbeat and lay off all my workers. Communism is a failed system.

[Oedipus Rex]

There's no such thing as a 'livable wage'.

I'm all for a minimum wage for the village idiots. I just don't think the minimum wage should be viewed as being sufficient to live on. That's silly. The minimum wage should be a stepping stone towards a wage that is sufficient to live on.


Well there are a lot of good people who work for minimum wage, they work hard and try to put food on the table. Because they can't they have food stamps and because they can't pay rent they need housing, this Money they get comes from others who work and makes it harder on them to make money and have food on their tables.

People say if we pay more the everything will cost more, but what about all that money for food stamps and housing? If you pay more then you get more and that person will want to do even more.

Some people don't care about others and how they live, not all of us are gifted with greatness. We should help others who need help.

One more point: If we pay more less will need help with foodstamps and housing. You save money and people work for what they get.

$5.15 is a joke.

Mark Pendergraft


Folks around here can make better than $9 an hour flipping burgers. That's a joke, my friend.

If folks don't like earning minimum wage, its up to them to make themselves more marketable/valuable.

[MAP2010.wireless]

There's no such thing as a 'livable wage'.

I'm all for a minimum wage for the village idiots. I just don't think the minimum wage should be viewed as being sufficient to live on. That's silly. The minimum wage should be a stepping stone towards a wage that is sufficient to live on.


Well there are a lot of good people who work for minimum wage, they work hard and try to put food on the table. Because they can't they have food stamps and because they can't pay rent they need housing, this Money they get comes from others who work and makes it harder on them to make money and have food on their tables.

People say if we pay more the everything will cost more, but what about all that money for food stamps and housing? If you pay more then you get more and that person will want to do even more.

Some people don't care about others and how they live, not all of us are gifted with greatness. We should help others who need help.

One more point: If we pay more less will need help with foodstamps and housing. You save money and people work for what they get.

$5.15 is a joke.

Mark Pendergraft


Folks around here can make better than $9 an hour flipping burgers. That's a joke, my friend.

If folks don't like earning minimum wage, its up to them to make themselves more marketable/valuable.


And living on $9.00 an hr. is a joke as well.

[MAP2010.wireless]

I have a small company and about 23 contractors, I will offer something called an adjustable share to all of my workers even my customers.

It would work like this for my contractors:

1000 anytime mins and nights at 7pm for $32.00

75% Paycheck $2050
15% Adjustable Shares (Worker pays $450.00 Companies pays $450.00) Workers can pull money after 1 year.
10% Retirement Program (Worker pay $300 Companies pay $300.00)
Workers can pull money after 5 years.

Over 30 Years of work.

($1,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($10,000.00)
($2,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($11,000.00)
($3,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($12,000.00)
($4,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($13,000.00)
($5,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($14,000.00)
($6,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($15,000.00)
($7,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($16,000.00)
($8,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($17,000.00)
($9,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($18,000.00)
($10,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($19,000.00)
($11,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($20,000.00)
($12,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($21,000.00)
($13,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($22,000.00)
($14,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($23,000.00)
($15,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($24,000.00)
($16,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($25,000.00)
($17,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($26,000.00)
($18,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($27,000.00)
($19,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($28,000.00)
($20,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($29,000.00)
($21,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($30,000.00)
($22,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($31,000.00)
($23,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($32,000.00)
($24,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($33,000.00)
($25,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($34,000.00)
($26,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($35,000.00)
($27,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($36,000.00)
($28,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($37,000.00)
($29,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($38,000.00)
($30,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($39,000.00)
Year Bonus Retirement/S Total W/O (I)
$465,000.00 $270,000.00 $735,000.00

I'm working on other stuff but it should be good.


This is more of what I was talking about, if a Company is doing good the workers should be paid more.

Mark Pendergraft

[Oedipus Rex]

There's no such thing as a 'livable wage'.

I'm all for a minimum wage for the village idiots. I just don't think the minimum wage should be viewed as being sufficient to live on. That's silly. The minimum wage should be a stepping stone towards a wage that is sufficient to live on.


Well there are a lot of good people who work for minimum wage, they work hard and try to put food on the table. Because they can't they have food stamps and because they can't pay rent they need housing, this Money they get comes from others who work and makes it harder on them to make money and have food on their tables.

People say if we pay more the everything will cost more, but what about all that money for food stamps and housing? If you pay more then you get more and that person will want to do even more.

Some people don't care about others and how they live, not all of us are gifted with greatness. We should help others who need help.

One more point: If we pay more less will need help with foodstamps and housing. You save money and people work for what they get.

$5.15 is a joke.

Mark Pendergraft


Folks around here can make better than $9 an hour flipping burgers. That's a joke, my friend.

If folks don't like earning minimum wage, its up to them to make themselves more marketable/valuable.


And living on $9.00 an hr. is a joke as well.


Then those who earn that much should do the things it takes to get out of that income bracket. It responsibilty is on the wage earner.

[Oedipus Rex]

I have a small company and about 23 contractors, I will offer something called an adjustable share to all of my workers even my customers.

It would work like this for my contractors:

1000 anytime mins and nights at 7pm for $32.00

75% Paycheck $2050
15% Adjustable Shares (Worker pays $450.00 Companies pays $450.00) Workers can pull money after 1 year.
10% Retirement Program (Worker pay $300 Companies pay $300.00)
Workers can pull money after 5 years.

Over 30 Years of work.

($1,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($10,000.00)
($2,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($11,000.00)
($3,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($12,000.00)
($4,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($13,000.00)
($5,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($14,000.00)
($6,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($15,000.00)
($7,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($16,000.00)
($8,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($17,000.00)
($9,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($18,000.00)
($10,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($19,000.00)
($11,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($20,000.00)
($12,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($21,000.00)
($13,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($22,000.00)
($14,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($23,000.00)
($15,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($24,000.00)
($16,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($25,000.00)
($17,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($26,000.00)
($18,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($27,000.00)
($19,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($28,000.00)
($20,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($29,000.00)
($21,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($30,000.00)
($22,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($31,000.00)
($23,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($32,000.00)
($24,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($33,000.00)
($25,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($34,000.00)
($26,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($35,000.00)
($27,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($36,000.00)
($28,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($37,000.00)
($29,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($38,000.00)
($30,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($39,000.00)
Year Bonus Retirement/S Total W/O (I)
$465,000.00 $270,000.00 $735,000.00

I'm working on other stuff but it should be good.


This is more of what I was talking about, if a Company is doing good the workers should be paid more.

Mark Pendergraft


I'm glad you're creative and care enough about your employees to want to do this for them.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

The guy who reinvests his profit into his business instead of wasting it on overpaying employees will put you out of business.

[MAP2010.wireless]

I have a small company and about 23 contractors, I will offer something called an adjustable share to all of my workers even my customers.

It would work like this for my contractors:

1000 anytime mins and nights at 7pm for $32.00

75% Paycheck $2050
15% Adjustable Shares (Worker pays $450.00 Companies pays $450.00) Workers can pull money after 1 year.
10% Retirement Program (Worker pay $300 Companies pay $300.00)
Workers can pull money after 5 years.

Over 30 Years of work.

($1,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($10,000.00)
($2,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($11,000.00)
($3,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($12,000.00)
($4,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($13,000.00)
($5,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($14,000.00)
($6,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($15,000.00)
($7,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($16,000.00)
($8,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($17,000.00)
($9,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($18,000.00)
($10,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($19,000.00)
($11,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($20,000.00)
($12,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($21,000.00)
($13,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($22,000.00)
($14,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($23,000.00)
($15,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($24,000.00)
($16,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($25,000.00)
($17,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($26,000.00)
($18,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($27,000.00)
($19,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($28,000.00)
($20,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($29,000.00)
($21,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($30,000.00)
($22,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($31,000.00)
($23,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($32,000.00)
($24,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($33,000.00)
($25,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($34,000.00)
($26,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($35,000.00)
($27,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($36,000.00)
($28,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($37,000.00)
($29,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($38,000.00)
($30,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($39,000.00)
Year Bonus Retirement/S Total W/O (I)
$465,000.00 $270,000.00 $735,000.00

I'm working on other stuff but it should be good.


This is more of what I was talking about, if a Company is doing good the workers should be paid more.

Mark Pendergraft


I'm glad you're creative and care enough about your employees to want to do this for them.


Heres my point if you care for your workers they will care about you, if they care about you they will care about your product. If they care about the product they will care about your Customers as well, if you care about your Customers they will care about you.


Mark Pendergraft

[MAP2010.wireless]

The guy who reinvests his profit into his business instead of wasting it on overpaying employees will put you out of business.


I don't think you get the layout I have put together nor do I think you see how it is investing in the Company and my works, if your workers invest into the company they will do more and make more.

If you look at it you will see that part of the income the worker is making is invested back into the company, thats a lot of money.

$16,905,000.00 over 30 years, this is not including interests or Company growth. I want people who want to make money, my workers know how to get stuff done. And if they work hard they will retire good as well, if they hit 30 phones a month they will get a Car Credit of $500.00. Pay good get good workers, pay nothing get nothing.

Mark

P.S I been in Business for over 9 Years.
1997-2006

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

Actually I know a couple guys who pay mexicans 14 bucks an hour and make a million a year.

[MAP2010.wireless]

Actually I know a couple guys who pay mexicans 14 bucks an hour and make a million a year.


I think you are saying they he is paying workers from Mexico and not just based on their Race as Mexicans. But I feel if a Man works and is worth his worth he should be paid his worth.

[Oedipus Rex]

I have a small company and about 23 contractors, I will offer something called an adjustable share to all of my workers even my customers.

It would work like this for my contractors:

1000 anytime mins and nights at 7pm for $32.00

75% Paycheck $2050
15% Adjustable Shares (Worker pays $450.00 Companies pays $450.00) Workers can pull money after 1 year.
10% Retirement Program (Worker pay $300 Companies pay $300.00)
Workers can pull money after 5 years.

Over 30 Years of work.

($1,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($10,000.00)
($2,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($11,000.00)
($3,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($12,000.00)
($4,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($13,000.00)
($5,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($14,000.00)
($6,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($15,000.00)
($7,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($16,000.00)
($8,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($17,000.00)
($9,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($18,000.00)
($10,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($19,000.00)
($11,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($20,000.00)
($12,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($21,000.00)
($13,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($22,000.00)
($14,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($23,000.00)
($15,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($24,000.00)
($16,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($25,000.00)
($17,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($26,000.00)
($18,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($27,000.00)
($19,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($28,000.00)
($20,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($29,000.00)
($21,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($30,000.00)
($22,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($31,000.00)
($23,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($32,000.00)
($24,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($33,000.00)
($25,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($34,000.00)
($26,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($35,000.00)
($27,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($36,000.00)
($28,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($37,000.00)
($29,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($38,000.00)
($30,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($39,000.00)
Year Bonus Retirement/S Total W/O (I)
$465,000.00 $270,000.00 $735,000.00

I'm working on other stuff but it should be good.


This is more of what I was talking about, if a Company is doing good the workers should be paid more.

Mark Pendergraft


I'm glad you're creative and care enough about your employees to want to do this for them.


Heres my point if you care for your workers they will care about you, if they care about you they will care about your product. If they care about the product they will care about your Customers as well, if you care about your Customers they will care about you.


Mark Pendergraft


Let me guess... you're in sales, right?

[MAP2010.wireless]

I have a small company and about 23 contractors, I will offer something called an adjustable share to all of my workers even my customers.

It would work like this for my contractors:

1000 anytime mins and nights at 7pm for $32.00

75% Paycheck $2050
15% Adjustable Shares (Worker pays $450.00 Companies pays $450.00) Workers can pull money after 1 year.
10% Retirement Program (Worker pay $300 Companies pay $300.00)
Workers can pull money after 5 years.

Over 30 Years of work.

($1,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($10,000.00)
($2,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($11,000.00)
($3,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($12,000.00)
($4,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($13,000.00)
($5,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($14,000.00)
($6,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($15,000.00)
($7,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($16,000.00)
($8,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($17,000.00)
($9,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($18,000.00)
($10,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($19,000.00)
($11,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($20,000.00)
($12,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($21,000.00)
($13,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($22,000.00)
($14,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($23,000.00)
($15,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($24,000.00)
($16,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($25,000.00)
($17,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($26,000.00)
($18,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($27,000.00)
($19,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($28,000.00)
($20,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($29,000.00)
($21,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($30,000.00)
($22,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($31,000.00)
($23,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($32,000.00)
($24,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($33,000.00)
($25,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($34,000.00)
($26,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($35,000.00)
($27,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($36,000.00)
($28,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($37,000.00)
($29,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($38,000.00)
($30,000.00) ($9,000.00) ($39,000.00)
Year Bonus Retirement/S Total W/O (I)
$465,000.00 $270,000.00 $735,000.00

I'm working on other stuff but it should be good.


This is more of what I was talking about, if a Company is doing good the workers should be paid more.

Mark Pendergraft


I'm glad you're creative and care enough about your employees to want to do this for them.


Heres my point if you care for your workers they will care about you, if they care about you they will care about your product. If they care about the product they will care about your Customers as well, if you care about your Customers they will care about you.


Mark Pendergraft


Let me guess... you're in sales, right?


"MAP2010.wireless"<<=========== You could say that, but I'm fair and know how to take care of my workers.

[Oedipus Rex]

"MAP2010.wireless"<<=========== You could say that, but I'm fair and know how to take care of my workers.


You should try the manufacturing side of things. You just may be in for an eye opener.

[MAP2010.wireless]

"MAP2010.wireless"<<=========== You could say that, but I'm fair and know how to take care of my workers.


You should try the manufacturing side of things. You just may be in for an eye opener.


I'm not sure what that has to do with anything? Are you saying I should design Cell Phones?

No matter what you do you should be fair to your workers.

[Oedipus Rex]

"MAP2010.wireless"<<=========== You could say that, but I'm fair and know how to take care of my workers.


You should try the manufacturing side of things. You just may be in for an eye opener.


I'm not sure what that has to do with anything? Are you saying I should design Cell Phones?

No matter what you do you should be fair to your workers.



You'd be dealing with a different class of people. Blue collars are a different sort of animal.



BTW, I've made cell phone cases in my line of work out of liquid metals that'll bounce and not dent. Really cool stuff.

[MAP2010.wireless]

"MAP2010.wireless"<<=========== You could say that, but I'm fair and know how to take care of my workers.


You should try the manufacturing side of things. You just may be in for an eye opener.


I'm not sure what that has to do with anything? Are you saying I should design Cell Phones?

No matter what you do you should be fair to your workers.



You'd be dealing with a different class of people. Blue collars are a different sort of animal.



BTW, I've made cell phone cases in my line of work out of liquid metals that'll bounce and not dent. Really cool stuff.


Oh, I have done a lot of hard work, Before I started fulltime in what I do I own a Construction Company. I have a bad back so I can't do that anymore.
And I'm from Texas and Movied to California.

[Flea_Bit_Monkey]

Actually I know a couple guys who pay mexicans 14 bucks an hour and make a million a year.


I think you are saying they he is paying workers from Mexico and not just based on their Race as Mexicans. But I feel if a Man works and is worth his worth he should be paid his worth.


$14 an hour is about what they are worth.

[Oedipus Rex]

"MAP2010.wireless"<<=========== You could say that, but I'm fair and know how to take care of my workers.


You should try the manufacturing side of things. You just may be in for an eye opener.


I'm not sure what that has to do with anything? Are you saying I should design Cell Phones?

No matter what you do you should be fair to your workers.



You'd be dealing with a different class of people. Blue collars are a different sort of animal.



BTW, I've made cell phone cases in my line of work out of liquid metals that'll bounce and not dent. Really cool stuff.


Oh, I have done a lot of hard work, Before I started fulltime in what I do I own a Construction Company. I have a bad back so I can't do that anymore.
And I'm from Texas and Movied to California.


I've been in machining for many years. That's what I do. I own a CNC shop. I came to San Diego from Alabama in 1999.

[MAP2010.wireless]

Actually I know a couple guys who pay mexicans 14 bucks an hour and make a million a year.


I think you are saying they he is paying workers from Mexico and not just based on their Race as Mexicans. But I feel if a Man works and is worth his worth he should be paid his worth.


$14 an hour is about what they are worth.


Its based on the State, but thats a fair pay. I started when I was 13 and worked for $3.00 an hr, It was hard work but I live on my own at the time. I rented a house would $175.00 a month and made $864.00, I had to move out because of my Step Father hated me. I did not know my Dad he left when I was 5, but at the time I did good for myself. I saved my money and started my own Company and because of the years I worked with other Companies it was easyer to get work. After time and hurting my back I know I needed something new to do, Hard work as just to much for my back. My Company started in 1997 and slowly became more and more about Sales, maketing and less about Hard work. Now I do nothing but Sales and Marketing.

[firefox]

Cool what do you sell and market, wireless? I do asset protection services (http://www.mpassetprotection.com/) myself.

[MAP2010.wireless]

Cool what do you sell and market, wireless? I do asset protection services (http://www.mpassetprotection.com/) myself.


There is 3 parts (1) Cellphones (2) Network Design (3) Training both on Your Cellphone and the Network it uses.

I'm have my site worked on but its www.map2010.com and CitizensUniversity.com.

Just to let you know about what I do here is something I made for advertisement. Ampd is going to get the Q and its only $99 and you can get unlimited mins for $99 its a great deal. I do work with most Carriers but right now its Ampd with the best deals.

http://i23.ebayimg.com/04/s/000/77/38/c461_11.JPG
http://i11.ebayimg.com/04/i/000/80/63/2c5d_1.JPG

[Nemo]

It is the ordinary working people who get up every day and do the jobs upon whichÂ*Â*everyone depends and that everyone takes for granted.Â*Â*They are neglected and ignored for all their worth and the importance of their work; yet they are the same as those whose labors built the pyramids and the Great Wall of China.Â*Â*What one great man has left a more lasting mark on the face of the earth?Â*Â* Still we live in a world that would deny ordinary working people even the most basic of human rights and benefits of life.Â*Â*For the last decade, the Congress has voted itself a cost-of-living increase in salary every year; but not a raise in the minimum wage for working people.Â*Â*Have we learned nothing from history?Â*Â*In every age there has been unrest, revolution or war for the suppression of the masses to satisfy the greed and ambitions of the ruling classes.Â*Â*Nothing has changed; and so long as such inequities exists, it never will.

[Oedipus Rex]

Today's working class are the chumps of the wealthy. It starts with our educational systems and reinforced by the way middle/lower class parents raise their children.

[MAP2010.wireless]

Today's working class are the chumps of the wealthy. It starts with our educational systems and reinforced by the way middle/lower class parents raise their children.


Thats not true, I know people who never learnd how to make money because their Mom and Dad paid everything. I know people who had nothing and they worked for everything and they did better.

[Oedipus Rex]

Today's working class are the chumps of the wealthy. It starts with our educational systems and reinforced by the way middle/lower class parents raise their children.


Thats not true, I know people who never learnd how to make money because their Mom and Dad paid everything. I know people who had nothing and they worked for everything and they did better.


My point was that the children of the rich learn how to handle money and the way to use money as a way to gain wealth. Children of the middle class and the poor learn how to be employees and workers.

[MAP2010.wireless]

Today's working class are the chumps of the wealthy. It starts with our educational systems and reinforced by the way middle/lower class parents raise their children.


Thats not true, I know people who never learnd how to make money because their Mom and Dad paid everything. I know people who had nothing and they worked for everything and they did better.


My point was that the children of the rich learn how to handle money and the way to use money as a way to gain wealth. Children of the middle class and the poor learn how to be employees and workers.


Some of the time thats true, but some of the time its not. Its easyer for rich people to say rich then poor people to become rich.

I was very very very poor when I was young and the only way to have anything was to work, now I could have worked hard or not work at all but when your poor you have to work a lot harder then if your Mom and Dad have money. I was so poor that when I was 13 I needed to have a fulltime job to eat or I would have done without.

But sometimes your right.

[Guitarmitch]

2% of the work force make minimum wage. This is really a non issue. Personally I think they should eliminate the minimum wage outright. But since that wont happen it should be a state issue since cost of living is different everywhere.

If you want to make a 'livable wage" you should get the skills required to be WORTH a "livable" wage. Having the government force a business to pay a certain amount for a worker is not right.

Its a give and take, if that business does not pay enough, they will not find workers, if the worker demands too much they will not find jobs. Its very simple.

In New Jersey, if you cant find a job making $10 hour you are just not looking very hard.

The bigger issue in this country is living beyond your means. As long as we do that, it wont matter what the wage is.

[firefox]

This is very true, GM. The rampant use of credit and the Federal Reserve System definitely don't help, do they?

[MAP2010.wireless]

Thanks to all who Voted and Post here.

[firefox]

No problem, wireless!

[MAP2010.wireless]

2% of the work force make minimum wage. This is really a non issue. Personally I think they should eliminate the minimum wage outright. But since that wont happen it should be a state issue since cost of living is different everywhere.

If you want to make a 'livable wage" you should get the skills required to be WORTH a "livable" wage. Having the government force a business to pay a certain amount for a worker is not right.

Its a give and take, if that business does not pay enough, they will not find workers, if the worker demands too much they will not find jobs. Its very simple.

In New Jersey, if you cant find a job making $10 hour you are just not looking very hard.

The bigger issue in this country is living beyond your means. As long as we do that, it wont matter what the wage is.


Ok, you say that in New Jersey most make $10 an hr. Is that a good thing there? If it is then great, but there are many places where they can't live on that or make way less.

Why do I say a Livable Wage?

Do you want people to pay their bills?
Would it be better for them to get Food stamps?
Would it be ok if they had to live in a homeless place?

What I'm saying is this, if you live and work in San Antonio Tx you could do ok at $10 an hr. If you lived in Concord Ca you need more.

Apartments
(San Antonio, Tx) $300.00-$1000.00
$10.00 an hr for a month at 40 hrs.= $1600.00

Cost of living.
Rent $500.00
Gas $300.00
Car Payment $300.00
Cable & internet $85.00
Food $300.00 plus
This is what they need= $1485.00
But this is what they make=$1286.51


(Concord, Ca) $800.00-5000.00 plus

Cost of living.
Rent $500.00 add $300 for a smaller place.
Gas $300.00
Car Payment $300.00
Cable & internet $85.00
Food $300.00 plus
This is what you get= $1785.00
But this is what they make=$1286.51

Now a Livable Wage.
Take the cost of that area.

In San Antonio, Tx. we can see it takes $10.00 to $11.87 an hr to have a Livable wage.

[1Samuel8]

I have a great idea!
We should forbid anybody from working for less than $1,000,000.00 per hour! Everybody [who could keep a job] would become instant millionaires!

Their employers will magically be able to pay them that much more money!

[Elrathin]

I have a great idea!
We should forbid anybody from working for less than $1,000,000.00 per hour! Everybody [who could keep a job] would become instant millionaires!

Their employers will magically be able to pay them that much more money!


Wow what a completely and insanely stupid slippery slope argument!

I got a better idea, using your ideas, why don't we just not pay anyone anything and then they can feel the benefit for working for nothing. Then corporations can make all the money they want.

[1Samuel8]

I got a better idea, using your ideas, why don't we just not pay anyone anything and then they can feel the benefit for working for nothing. Then corporations can make all the money they want.Using your better idea, would you show up to work???

[Elrathin]

Using your better idea, would you show up to work???


Using your idea would an employer pay?

[1Samuel8]

Using your idea would an employer pay?Probably not. That is the point.
Disallowing people to work for a low wage, leads to unemployment. This is not a new concept.

[Elrathin]

Disallowing people to work for a low wage, leads to unemployment. This is not a new concept.


And exploiting people that need jobs to survive causes things like we see in China where people are working for slave wages because they need them to survive.

[1Samuel8]

And exploiting people that need jobs to survive causes things like we see in China where people are working for slave wages because they need them to survive.You are comparing apples and oranges. What is your point??
Go spread your logic of "livable minimum wages" to the Chinese dictators.

[Elrathin]

You are comparing apples and oranges. What is your point??
Go spread your logic of "livable minimum wages" to the Chinese dictators.


No, I am not comparing apples to oranges. I am comparing to what happened already in this country before people started stepping in and saying you have to have a minimum wage as well as child labor laws. It already happened and people like you want a repeat of it.

[1Samuel8]

No, I am not comparing apples to oranges. I am comparing to what happened already in this country before people started stepping in and saying you have to have a minimum wage as well as child labor laws. It already happened and people like you want a repeat of it.When you repeat that mantra, be so honest as to include the fact that people at the lowest end of the pay scale are forced out of work by your minimum wage.

By the way, what people are you trying to help?

[Elrathin]

When you repeat that mantra, be so honest as to include the fact that people at the lowest end of the pay scale are forced out of work by your minimum wage.

By the way, what people are you trying to help?


And when you repeat your BS please include the fact that those working without a minimum wage would also be like those in the past where work conditions sucked and they were payed slave wages.

Please spare me with your doom and gloom minimum wage is the devil crap. It has guaranteed that people have a lot better working conditions and they are not exploited as you want them to be.

The sad part is your interest is in helping corporations.

[1Samuel8]

And when you repeat your BS please include the fact that those working without a minimum wage would also be like those in the past where work conditions sucked and they were payed slave wages.Let me know when you enter 21st century America.

[Elrathin]

Let me know when you enter 21st century America.


I have, you might want to try it sometime. Boy I'm glad there isn't a majority that think as you do.

[1Samuel8]

Boy I'm glad there isn't a majority that think as you do.Why not?

[Truth_and_Power]

You are comparing apples and oranges.Â*Â*What is your point??Â*Â*
Go spread your logic of "livable minimum wages" to the Chinese dictators.


No, I am not comparing apples to oranges.Â*Â*I am comparing to what happened already in this country before people started stepping in and saying you have to have a minimum wage as well as child labor laws.Â*Â*It already happened and people like you want a repeat of it.


Only a detachment from the reality of the policies he endorses allows Samuel to stick to his beliefs without admitting all the hardship they would cause if actually implemented. I think what someone said about Kucinich in the Demo debates kind of sums it up best, he has "the conviction that impossibility brings".

[Elrathin]

Actually looking on it further, Samuels ideas are not that bad, but require a faith in individuals to not be greedy. I just don't place that sort of responsibility into the hands of the majority of people because we have seen in the past what unregulated wages have accomplished and we see how greedy corporations are now.

And somehow we are supposed to place faith in them that they will do the right thing? I don't think so, their track record is not that great in the responsibility department.

[1Samuel8]

Actually looking on it further, Samuels ideas are not that bad, but require a faith in individuals to not be greedy.Quite the opposite. They hinge on the fact that people are greedy.



Only a detachment from the reality of the policies he endorses allows Samuel to stick to his beliefs without admitting all the hardship they would cause if actually implemented.My beliefs are a detachment from reality??
Here is a challenge for you: name one academic economic source that defends wage controls without recognizing that they increase unemployment for the people at the lowest end of the wage-scale.

[Truth_and_Power]

Actually looking on it further, Samuels ideas are not that bad, but require a faith in individuals to not be greedy.Quite the opposite.Â*Â*They hinge on the fact that people are greedy.Â*Â*



Only a detachment from the reality of the policies he endorses allows Samuel to stick to his beliefs without admitting all the hardship they would cause if actually implemented.My beliefs are a detachment from reality??Â*Â*
Here is a challenge for you: name one academic economic source that defends wage controls without recognizing that they increase unemployment for the people at the lowest end of the wage-scale.



You are right, economic theory certainly says that wage controls will cause more unemployment at the bottom of the scale. What's our present unemployment rate? I can't quote it off the top of my head but I can tell you it is near the sustainable lower limit, and yet we have wage controls, child labor laws, OSHA, and a host of other workplace regulations. And if you look at reality in america (here's where i justify my comment about you) before these regulations vs. after these regulations, which one looks better to you? I really hope that you think about and answer this question.

[1Samuel8]

And if you look at reality in america (here's where i justify my comment about you) before these regulations vs. after these regulations, which one looks better to you? I really hope that you think about and answer this question.I do not care.
Trust me, I have thought long and hard about this many moons ago. What is right and wrong does not change.

It is wrong to deny low-wage earners the right to work below a certain wage if that person wants to.

[Truth_and_Power]

And if you look at reality in america (here's where i justify my comment about you) before these regulations vs. after these regulations, which one looks better to you?Â*Â*I really hope that you think about and answer this question.I do not care.Â*Â*
Trust me, I have thought long and hard about this many moons ago. What is right and wrong does not change.Â*Â*

It is wrong to deny low-wage earners the right to work below a certain wage if that person wants to.


Well then I guess we'll just have to stand on opposite sites of the Ideology/Pragmatism divide.

[1Samuel8]

Well then I guess we'll just have to stand on opposite sites of the Ideology/Pragmatism divide.Pragmatism?
Your ideology forces the poorest people to pay for a feel-good Publice Relations campain by forcing them into unemployment.

Sounds practical from a politician's stand-point. Nobody cares about poor people anyway. Right?

[Truth_and_Power]

Well then I guess we'll just have to stand on opposite sites of the Ideology/Pragmatism divide.Pragmatism?Â*Â*
Your ideology forces the poorest people to pay for a feel-good Publice Relations campain by forcing them into unemployment.Â*Â*

Sounds practical from a politician's stand-point.Â*Â*Nobody cares about poor people anyway.Â*Â*Right?


Your ideology would remove safe workplace protections that have greatly reduced on the job injuries and deaths in the last century.Â*Â*Your ideology would have children working in industrial machinery and coal mines again, because they "have the right to work".Â*Â*Also, we have a minimum wage now, but there is no unemployment problem.Â*Â*Show me a person who can't get a job and I'll show you a person who either doesnt try, doesnt speak english, or has multiple felony convictions.

You are attached to "rights" whereas I am attached to the effect of these changes on society. You are attached to abstract concepts, I am attached to concrete reality.

[1Samuel8]

Here is some concrete reality for you: Unfortunately, neither laudable intentions nor widespread support can alter one simple fact: although minimum wage laws can set wages, they cannot guarantee jobs. In reality, minimum wage laws place additional obstacles in the path of the most unskilled workers who are struggling to reach the lowest rungs of the economic ladder. According to a 1978 article in American Economic Review, the American Economic Association's main journal, fully 90 percent of the economists surveyed agreed that the minimum wage increases unemployment among low-skilled workers. It also reduces the on-the-job training offered by employers and shrinks the number of positions offering fringe benefits. To those who lose their jobs, their training opportunities, or their fringe benefits as a result of the minimum wage, the law is simply one more example of good intentions producing hellish results.Minimum Wages by Linda Gorman: The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics (http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/MinimumWages.html)

Here are some more:
Minimum Wage, Maximum Stupidity by Larry Elder (http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2079)
Minimum Wage, Maximum Folly by Walter Williams (http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4639)
A Glimmer of Hope: The Unusual Backlash Against Minimum Wage by Thomas Sowell (http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4757)



Your ideology would remove safe workplace protections that haveSNIP!
Try to stay focussed.
Your ideology is just political rhetoric.

[Truth_and_Power]

Here is some concrete reality for you: Unfortunately, neither laudable intentions nor widespread support can alter one simple fact: although minimum wage laws can set wages, they cannot guarantee jobs. In reality, minimum wage laws place additional obstacles in the path of the most unskilled workers who are struggling to reach the lowest rungs of the economic ladder. According to a 1978 article in American Economic Review, the American Economic Association's main journal, fully 90 percent of the economists surveyed agreed that the minimum wage increases unemployment among low-skilled workers. It also reduces the on-the-job training offered by employers and shrinks the number of positions offering fringe benefits. To those who lose their jobs, their training opportunities, or their fringe benefits as a result of the minimum wage, the law is simply one more example of good intentions producing hellish results.Minimum Wages by Linda Gorman: The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics (http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/MinimumWages.html)

Here are some more:Â*Â*
Minimum Wage, Maximum Stupidity by Larry Elder (http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2079)
Minimum Wage, Maximum Folly by Walter Williams (http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4639)
A Glimmer of Hope: The Unusual Backlash Against Minimum Wage by Thomas Sowell (http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4757)



Your ideology would remove safe workplace protections that haveSNIP!Â*Â*
Try to stay focussed.Â*Â*
Your ideology is just political rhetoric.


I see, so you are not against OSHA or child labor laws, only against a minimum wage. I will drop those topics from this conversation, then. There is no need to insult me by calling my arguments rhetoric or implying that I do not care for the poor. I am making geniune arguments and I do care. If anything your statements of "nobody cares about the poor right?" are the rhetoric here.

I do not accept any theoretical arguments about minimum wages causing unemployment because there is not significant unemployment and yet there is a minimum wage. The arguments about fringe benefits and training could hold water. I'll read up on some of the articles you have posted and reply later, because I respect your arguments.

[Truth_and_Power]

Let me restate my last statement.. if taken wrong it could mean something different. What I meant was that REASONABLE minimum wages do not cause SIGNIFICANT unemployment. I am not arguing that if you double the minimum wage there will be no unemployment. I am arguing that it is a balancing act between keeping the incomes of the lowest wage earners at a decent level so that they do not have to work 80-100 hours a week just to get by. There is no time for education or "increase of productivity" as the economists prefer if you are spending every spare second scraping by.

I read two of the studies you posted and a couple more on the capitalism magazine site that you linked to.

Study about who minimum wage raises would effect:
http://www.fiscalpolicy.org/downloads/MinimumWageNov2004.pdf

Study about economists views on minimum wage increases:
http://www.econjournalwatch.org/pdf/KleinDompeEconomicsInPracticeJanuary2007.pdf


Of particular interest to me in the second study was the fact that:
1. Economists found the unemployment argument to be of "moderate concern" which would indicate to me that it is not an overwhealming factor arguing for the abolition of the minimum wage, but rather a balancing factor arguing against excessive increases in the minimum wage. The disallowing of indentured servitude was used as an analogy by one economist, however perhaps you would consider this inflammatory rhetoric.
2. The two biggest reasons for supporting a minimum wage were
a. low wage workers have less bargaining power in the workplace
b. inducing a transfer from employers to the lowest wage earners, albiet with possible small disemployment effects


Based on this survey it would appear that economists are sharply divided on this issue and where you get your sample will largely effect the result you get. I'm sure you could take issue with my source as well, but I would be somewhat suspect of studies posted on "capitalism magazine". It sounds kind of.. biased. I found it mildly disturbing from an objectivity standpoint that they seem to have a penchant for displaying wholeheartedly anti-minimum wage black faced economists. It just felt a bit like an emotional ploy. JMO. Thanks for the info, you have helped to illuminate serious concerns about minimum wage hikes.

[1Samuel8]

I'm sure you could take issue with my source as well, but I would be somewhat suspect of studies posted on "capitalism magazine". It sounds kind of.. biased. I found it mildly disturbing from an objectivity standpoint that they seem to have a penchant for displaying wholeheartedly anti-minimum wage black faced economists. It just felt a bit like an emotional ploy.Mildly distrubing? Those economists are both well respected in their field and black. None of them were playing the race card. Every author on that site has their portrait displayed.
What I find insulting is you associating race with emotions and academic quality in an economic discussion. Those black economists did not get their respect because of their race. They got it through their ability to write and speak clearly -- among other things.


Let me appeal to your sense of morality.
Imagine you are a hot-dog vendor who can only afford one employee at minimum wage. Why should bureaucrats have the right to force you to suffer losses and pay a controlled wage?

[Truth_and_Power]

My bit about race was a kind of side point.. more a mild reason for suspicion of the site to which all of your links pointed.Â*Â*and I put a big JMO after it to try to imply that it was just a thought.Â*Â*unfortunately you have only responded to that small portion of my reply.

Yes i understand the arguments about small business and freedom and such.Â*Â*However, I also understand there are other arguments which I have previously stated.Â*Â*I feel there is a balance to be achieved.

If all hotdog vendors are forced to pay their labor similar minimum wages, then the price of hotdogs increases across the board, as well as other food items. This does not provide a competitive disadvantage for the hotdog vendor. It does provide a mechanism for lifting the wages of the lowest wage earners at the expense of the consumer, who presumably represents a decent cross section of society.

[1Samuel8]

If all hotdog vendors are forced to pay their labor similar minimum wages, then the price of hotdogs increases across the board, as well as other food items.I think that would be immoral to force that upon you, the hot dog vendor -- just my opinion.

[Truth_and_Power]

[/align]Yeah I'm more interested on the effect on society that is generated than whether it's "moral". I'm not saying I have no morals and would line up the poor and shoot them for the betterment of society, but in this case IMO citing "morals" rather than "evidence" makes you an idealogue rather than a pragmatist.

[1Samuel8]

but in this case IMO citing "morals" rather than "evidence" makes you an idealogue rather than a pragmatist.Correct.

I am curious, what is a "pragmatist" to you?

[Truth_and_Power]

but in this case IMO citing "morals" rather than "evidence" makes you an idealogue rather than a pragmatist.Correct.Â*Â*

I am curious, what is a "pragmatist" to you?


Judging the merit of an action by its effect.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pragmatism

prag·ma·tism /ˈprægməˌtɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[prag-muh-tiz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. character or conduct that emphasizes practicality.
2. a philosophical movement or system having various forms, but generally stressing practical consequences as constituting the essential criterion in determining meaning, truth, or value.

[1Samuel8]

You think I am stupid and I can not look up a definition in a dictionary???


Judging the merit of an action by its effect.Tell me precisely what criteria YOU follow to judge merit.
Your dictionary regurgitation provides nothing conclusive.

[Truth_and_Power]

You think I am stupid and I can not look up a definition in a dictionary???Â*Â*


Judging the merit of an action by its effect.Tell me precisely what criteria YOU follow to judge merit.Â*Â*
Your dictionary regurgitation provides nothing conclusive.


Well I am not a computer, I can only tell you how I think about something, I cannot provide you with a list of steps and evaluations. I have not suggested that you are stupid, or un-genuine at all in any of my posts. I stated my first definition from my own brain.

In the case of the minimum wage, I look at how it will effect all of the people involved. My opinion based on what I see is that it would put only a small drag on the business owner and consumer, while helping the low wage earner have a chance to climb the ladder of success in a significant way. Also I believe it would help to prevent abuses of the low wage earner by those with more bargaining power. As far as I can figure, that's the pragmatic way of looking at things. I guess it's all based on the moral conclusion that we should give all members of our society an opportunity to better themselves and achieve happiness, which would seem to be a base american value.

[1Samuel8]

My opinion based on what I see is that it would put only a small drag on the business owner and consumer, while helping the low wage earner have a chance to climb the ladder of success in a significant way.Small drag?? Says who?

A logical conclusion of your pragmatism includes a justification for theft. If a poor thief steals from a rich victim, your logic says it is acceptable. Do you accept the merit of that argument?

[Truth_and_Power]

My opinion based on what I see is that it would put only a small drag on the business owner and consumer, while helping the low wage earner have a chance to climb the ladder of success in a significant way.Small drag??Â*Â*Says who?Â*Â*

A logical conclusion of your pragmatism includes a justification for theft.Â*Â*If a poor thief steals from a rich victim,Â*Â*your logic says it is acceptable.Â*Â*Do you accept the merit of that argument?


By accepting that method of generating income you encourage the creation of more thieves.Â*Â*By accepting a minimum wage you encourage the creation of more workers.Â*Â*By funding welfare you encourage the creation of more deadbeats.Â*Â*By doing none of the above you encourage poverty.Â*Â*I know which I prefer.

I would prefer someone steal an apple rather than starve, but I'd prefer they work at McDonalds and pay for the apple over both.

[1Samuel8]

This is where your "pragmatism" fails:
By accepting that method of generating income you encourage the creation of more thieves.-- not if the thief can elude detection.

Most thiefs do not plan to get caught.

[potter]

I would prefer someone steal an apple rather than starve, but I'd prefer they work at McDonalds and pay for the apple over both.



One can easily both work at McDonalds and be starving enough to steal an apple. Even if that person is very frugal. Shoudn't a person be able to live on an honest days work? At least enough for meager food and shelter?

[firefox]

Not if it means forcing other people do do what you want with violence or the threat of violence. Besides... ever notice how there tends to be an inverse relationship between force and prosperity? More force leads to less prosperity and vice versa.

[1Samuel8]

Not if it means forcing other people do do what you want with violence or the threat of violence.Exactly.



Shoudn't a person be able to live on an honest days work? At least enough for meager food and shelter?Not if the employer can not afford to pay YOUR controlled wage.
Threatening the employer with violence if he does not pay a controlled wage is NOT an "honest day's work" at all.

[Truth_and_Power]

I would prefer someone steal an apple rather than starve, but I'd prefer they work at McDonalds and pay for the apple over both.



One can easily both work at McDonalds and be starving enough to steal an apple. Even if that person is very frugal. Shoudn't a person be able to live on an honest days work? At least enough for meager food and shelter?


Exactly. That is why we should artificially keep the wages high enough that a worker can get by on them without theft. I mean, wouldn't it be better to increase the minimum wage, and decrease taxes AND welfare? Right there you've shifted what could be an identical amount of money from money-for-poverty to money-for-work.

It's not really about the mindset of the theif, samuel. It's about how we as a society structure things economically to encourage certain behavior. I have met a person who gets by on welfare and is a young and lazy person, and she's raising a future welfare recipient at this moment. This person's mother also gets by on welfare and has for many many years. I find it disgusting. I would like nothing more than to see us yank the taxpayer's rug out from under this family so fast they'd think it was a flying carpet. But seeing as these are very low-value workers in my opinion, I don't think they're going to get more than minimum wage if they choose an honest line of work (even as prostitutes they'd make minimum). Would you rather have them selling french fries or sitting at home watching cable? Atleast with the working option they might eventually get a clue, or the next generation of gypsy-wannabes might see the parent working and take it one step up from there.

[1Samuel8]

Exactly. That is why we should artificially keep the wages high enough that a worker can get by on them without theft.You are forgetting one thing: jobs do not fall from the sky.
Who is going to guarantee that a worker can get a job at an artificial wage?

By the way, what do you mean by "artificially keep the wages high enough" exactly?
How will you know if the wages are high enough?

It's not really about the mindset of the theif, samuel. It's about how we as a society structure things economically to encourage certain behavior.Quite the contrary. It is precisely the mindset of a thief that will force employers to pay for something against their free will.
Call it "structure things economically to encourage certain behaviour" all you want.

I have met a person who gets by on welfare and is a young and lazy person, and she's raising a future welfare recipient at this moment. This person's mother also gets by on welfare and has for many many years. I find it disgusting.Blame that on the same statesmen to whom you confer the power to control wages.

Would you rather have them selling french fries or sitting at home watching cable?I would rather that there was NO wage controls. Period.

Atleast with the working option they might eventually get a clue, or the next generation of gypsy-wannabes might see the parent working and take it one step up from there.Working option??
We are talking about imposing wage controls. There is nothing intuitive that connects wage controls to a guaranteed job.

[Truth_and_Power]

Well you can call us all thieves for trying to combat poverty, but it's just name calling. Your ideas would only combat poverty in a trickle-down way, which is going to do more for the upper, middle and upper middle classes than it is for the lower classes. Wait, are you saying that if you had welfare taxes on one hand and wage controls on the other, you'd prefer welfare taxes? Or are you just saying screw the poor, we provide the economy and the rest is up to them?

Artificially high enough would be higher than $5.15 for sure, just add it up and try to live on it even @ 60hr/wk. Too high would be when it starts to ramp up unemployment. From what I've seen, $10/hr would be too high. The study you cited previously talked about a 10/hr wage in NYC causing problems.

[1Samuel8]

Well you can call us all thieves for trying to combat poverty, but it's just name calling.If you threaten somebody with violence if he does not give up his property, you are called a _____file in the blank_____.

Your ideas would only combat poverty in a trickle-down way,I am not interested in combatting poverty.
I am interested in respecting people's property and freedom.

Wait, are you saying that if you had welfare taxes on one hand and wage controls on the other, you'd prefer welfare taxes? Or are you just saying screw the poor, we provide the economy and the rest is up to them?I am saying neither.
By the way, who is "we" in your question???

Artificially high enough would be higher than $5.15 for sure, just add it up and tryThe Soviet union tried those all-knowing and all-powerful economic calculations. News flash: it failed miserably.

[Truth_and_Power]

Well you can call us all thieves for trying to combat poverty, but it's just name calling.If you threaten somebody with violence if he does not give up his property, you are called a tax man.


I am not interested in combatting poverty.
I am interested in respecting people's property and freedom.


Okay. I think you're in libertarian lala land, but that's your right.

[1Samuel8]

Well you can call us all thieves for trying to combat poverty, but it's just name calling.If you threaten somebody with violence if he does not give up his property, you are called a tax man.The doors of perception are finally opening.

[Truth_and_Power]

I never had any illusions about taxes.. but I consider taxes and government to be necessary for a comfortable society. You seem to think they impede it.

[1Samuel8]

I never had any illusions about taxes.. but I consider taxes and government to be necessary for a comfortable society. You seem to think they impede it.I believe the concept of "a comfortable society" is meaningless.
Individual people can be comfortable. A nebulous concept of "society" does not have feeling.

Stealing from Peter to give to Paul while collectively describing everybody's comfort is a form of justifying theft.

[Truth_and_Power]

Ok well watching people starve and die of curable diseases when we, as a society, have the ability to help them is heartless. Of course that is exactly what you are describing yourself as.. all in the name of "justice". Well I for one will vote for the "theft" of $7/hr if it reduces crime and increases people of the least means to help themselves without causing massive unemployment or economic failure.

[1Samuel8]

Well I for one will vote for the "theft" of $7/hr if it reduces crime and increases people of the least means to help themselves without causing massive unemployment or economic failure.Spare some change?

[Truth_and_Power]

Well I for one will vote for the "theft" of $7/hr if it reduces crime and increases people of the least means to help themselves without causing massive unemployment or economic failure.Spare some change?


Sure, if you don't mind washing my car.. make sure to clean out those little spaces in the hubcaps too. I'll give you $7.50 an hour.

[1Samuel8]

Sure, if you don't mind washing my car.. make sure to clean out those little spaces in the hubcaps too. I'll give you $7.50 an hour.Deal!
I will vacuum the inside for an extra 50 cents. How about that?

[Truth_and_Power]

Sure, if you don't mind washing my car.. make sure to clean out those little spaces in the hubcaps too. I'll give you $7.50 an hour.Deal!
I will vacuum the inside for an extra 50 cents. How about that?


Ooops, I just found out the government raised the minimum wage to $8.25. Now I can't afford to have my car cleaned. Here's a dollar for your crack habit. (playing along)

[1Samuel8]

Here's a dollar for your crack habit.Do I have to declare that dollar on my annual income tax statement?

[Truth_and_Power]

Here's a dollar for your crack habit.Do I have to declare that dollar on my annual income tax statement?


I don't know, I think you'd be the first crackhead ever to file taxes.

[firefox]

Yeah. Crackheads may have issues but at least they know better than to feed the violent trolls :).