* The Legendary Golda Meir: She Worked MiraclesÂ*Â**

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But when I was a young teenager, I had great respect for Golda Meir.
2. Thou I am not born Jewish, she was a hero to me.
3. She also had a saying, that is still very true to this day.
4. She said.
5. "We will have peace when Arabs love their children more then they hate us"
6. Here's a link to her profile:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Golda_Meir
7. She was one of the Greatest People of her time.
8. And a great protectorate for the Jews.
9. Gawd Bless The Memory of Golda Meir.
10. What a wonderful life she led.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Labrocca]

Nice...Good Wiki page on her and so many excellent quotes.

[lovely_girl_brunette]

Sir James of Texas,another amazing post you did.Only you can do it,so jealous gutless people here want to make a name out of Great Chesswarsnow.You always speak the truth with pride and courage.I don't care what losers says,you make this site worth to see.lol....I have all my new pics from Miss Earth Pageant.I can send you by e-mail if you want dear.

[Nitrus]

Nice, i hadnt heard of her before.

LGB, stay on topic.

[mumin]

Sorry to say, but she was an idiot. She claimed that there were no Palestinians or a Palestine.

Palestine is a geographic location. The people living in it before the Zionist movement were Palestinians, whether they were Palestinian Muslims, Palestinian Christians, or even the Palestinian Jews (who were about 3% of the population of the area before Zionism). Geography dictates whether there were a 'Palestinian' people.

I find it funny that an American (and I suppose a patriotic one?) would support someone revoking her American citizenship and changing alliances. She was also part of the terrorist Zionist movement within Israel (funny huh? most of the Zionist movement pre-1948 was considered a terrorist movement by the British, employing murder and terrorism against Arabs, British, and British-collaborating Jews alike).

Other terrorist prime ministers of Israel include Menachem Beginn (who masterminded the bombing of the King David Hotel, murdering 91 people, including the British, Arabs, and non-Zionist Jews). Oh, in 2006, Bibi (Netanyahu) and other Zionist terror members held a CELEBRATION over this massacre!

Good words have to be followed by good action. Theft is never good nor justified. Nor is murder justified. The Israeli leadership has been guilty of these charges ever since there was an Israeli leadership.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But there isn't one national palestinian.
2. Show me one thing that supports a Palestinian Nation?
3. Show me some form of self sustaining government.
4. Monetary means, currency.
5. A single coin, with a palestinian mark on it.
6. What's the denominations?
7. 1,5,10, 20, 100's????
8. Where did they hold a congress?
9. Show me the buildings, that they governed from, or foundations.
10. There is and was none.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[mumin]

Sorry bout that,

1. But there isn't one national palestinian.
2. Show me one thing that supports a Palestinian Nation?
3. Show me some form of self sustaining government.
4. Monetary means, currency.
5. A single coin, with a palestinian mark on it.
6. What's the denominations?
7. 1,5,10, 20, 100's????
8. Where did they hold a congress?
9. Show me the buildings, that they governed from, or foundations.
10. There is and was none.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

The entire Arabian peninsula was under control of the Ottoman Caliphate before the British. This Caliphate had control over Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and many other countries.

Where did the notion of 'Syria' or 'Iraq' come into place? It was all based on geography. Those who lived in Palestine were called Palestinians.

And Palestine is not a made-up term either. The British themselves declare it in their Balfour Declaration which has led up to the current events.

It was similar to what the E.U. aspires to be. There was a common currency, the Dinar, which existed in the Islamic caliphates since its inception to the dismantlement of the Ottomans. So, if in the near future, if only the Euro reigns in Europe and the countries are brought under a single government, does that mean that Denmark or Germany don't exist?

It's also similar to the states of the U.S.

The area was called Palestine. It had local, municipal governments, as did all cities. It was peaceful, with Jew, Christian, and Muslim living with security.

Just look at Jerusalem before Zionism (late 1800s).

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But goggle Palestinian money, see what you find?
2. Google Palestinian Government Documents.
3. Give me something to work with, link a coin?

Regards,
SirjamesofTexas

[mumin]

Sorry bout that,

1. But goggle Palestinian money, see what you find?
2. Google Palestinian Government Documents.
3. Give me something to work with, link a coin?

Regards,
SirjamesofTexas

Good job on COMPLETELY ignoring my post. :)

As I stated, the Palestinians were Palestinians simply because they had lived in Palestine for centuries. Before the Zionist movement, there were even Palestinian Jews. Palestine was not a country, similar to how Syria was not a country when it was all under Ottoman control.

And on the topic of 'legendary' Israel leaders:

http://www.ilaam.net/Intl/IsraeliQuotes.html

Here's a particularly interesting one:

"David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" (Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121)"

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But there never was a palestine nation.
2. Hence never a palestinian person.
3. All fiction.
4. There was a Israel.
5. And is now an Israel.

Regards,
SIrJamesofTexas

[Elrathin]

So Chess, there were Native Americans here in the U.S. even though there is no Native American Nation. How can that be?

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But I was wondering how long it would take you to bring up the American Indians.
2. They too are not a real Nation.
3. They haven't progressed enough to control a bingo hall respectably, and fairly.
4. They have allowed everything to pass them by.
5. And their hopes of being a real Nation have long sense died.
6. Can they ever become more than what they are?
7. Doubt it.

Regards,
SirajmesofTexas

[mumin]

Sorry bout that,

1. But I was wondering how long it would take you to bring up the American Indians.
2. They too are not a real Nation.
3. They haven't progressed enough to control a bingo hall respectably, and fairly.
4. They have allowed everything to pass them by.
5. And their hopes of being a real Nation have long sense died.
6. Can they ever become more than what they are?
7. Doubt it.

Regards,
SirajmesofTexas

So, if one doesn't have the funds or the technology, then they deserve to be subjugated, since they weren't a nation in your eyes to begin with?

That's called IMPERIALISM. This was the basis of European conquests. Those they conquered weren't nations in the sense that Britain or Germany were nations.

Also, by the logic that Israel was a nation over TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO, it would have to get all the land between the Nile and the Euphrates to regain itself as Eretz Israel.

Also, by that logic, Muslims have the right to reconquer Spain, since they once held that land. Or the Canaanites (who were driven out of Palestine by old Israel) have the right to reclaim their lands. Did you know that the descendants of the Canaanites are modern day Lebanese Christians and Shi'as? I guess they have the right to kick out Israel, since they were there before the Israelites laid eyes on the land.

Oh, and if Golda Meir is right, then Hamas is also right. Their ends are both the 'reclaiming' of lands, with each denying the other's right to exist or even throwing into question of whether they existed there before at all.

[wonder cow]

So Chess, there were Native Americans here in the U.S. even though there is no Native American Nation. How can that be?

Not true.

They too are not a real Nation.

False.

There were several Native American nations at any given time in North and South America. They were decentralized much more than most "western" nations are today, but they were still nations.

[Newscaster]

Amazing how this thread went from Golda Meir to Palestine. Mr Mummin obviously is not aware or certain facts. The area known to some as Palestine, was actually Israel and people called Israelites were those who CAME FROM ISRAEL. The name Palestine is actually a mistake. The Romans wanted to call it by that old name Philistine but they made a spelling mistake which became Palestine. In case you dont remember, the Philistines called among their own, that great warrior Goliath. Remember him....slaim by David? But thats just a sidebar. When the Romans formally conquored all of Israel in 70AD and thuse began the Disaspora (Dispersal) of the Jews, the land under dispute has been owned by the Romans, the Turks, and finally came under the control of the British. Notice, it was never under the control of any Arab group. The British who have been traditionally anti-Semitic, could not control the land which at this time was called TRANSJORDAN, not because of the people but because of the Jordan River. And when it was time to put the Balfour Declaration into effect, the United Nations took the land called TRansJordan and set it aside.......the small parcel as a home land for Jews to be called Israel and the much larger part which became the nation of Jordan, which would be a homeland for the arabs of the area. Theb Arabs were not happy with the division and were totally incensed when the displaced Jews from Europe, who survived the Holocaust and others began moving in from all over the world. Why did they move is? Because it was the one place on the entire planet where they would be completely welcome. And the very day that Israel was officially declared a nation, the armies of five arab nations attacked.
Now here are these big tough armies with rifles, cannons, tanks and even a few planes, attacking these Jews who were not at all armed, most still suffering the effects of the concentration camps and yet, they won. They picked up the weapons that were dropped on the battlefield and turned them against the arab attackers. And they won. They even won when Golda Meir was Prime Minister, a woman against those arab leaders who strutted around in medal bedecked uniforms, looking real tough. Prior to the establishment of Israel, the Jews had a slogan....."Next Year in Jerusalem". That slogan lasted until the Six Day War when Israel regained control over East Jerusalem. Then the slogan became...."Never Again." In other words "Never again will we be pushed around by anyone. Never again will they be led silently to gas chanbers and crematoriums." Since then, Israel has tried to live peacefully with its neighbors but that has been impossible. And so they had to get tough. Try to imagine living in a country surrounded by other nations who have all vowed to kill you and who attack on a daily basis. Will you smile benignly or will you hit back and hit back harder each time?
Arabs complain about Israeli actions against them. Try living under the gun 365, 24/7. See how peaceful you remain. Yes, Golda Meir was a great hero and a great leader but so were all the other Israeli leaders from David Ben Gurion to today's leaders. They were great because they had to be.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. Nope Golda Meir was extra special.
2. She worked miracles.
3. That's what made her so very very great!
4. I know this and you know this Newscaster.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Newscaster]

No Chess....you do not know what I know.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But what do you know of Golda Meir?
2. Seeing you say I don't know what you know.
3. I'm interested in hearing what it is.
4. Seeing we agree to a degree about the greatness of Golda Meir.
5. Explain how Israel defended itself from a five prong attack, when it was just recently formed?
6. How did that happen?

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Newscaster]

Chess, I dont want to embarrass you any more than yopu embarrass yourself so I suggest you withdraw the question.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. Nope I won't withdraw it.
2. You can ignore it if you wish.
3. Its a free site.
4. I am sure you don't have much anyways, Google her, then.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Newscaster]

Okay Chess.
Between 1961 and 1963, while in the USAF, I was an assistant military attaches at the US Embassy in Tel Aviv while Mrs Meir was Foreign Minister and had opportunity to meet her and meet with her on more than just several occasions. As such, I was required to know all about the people I would be dealing with, including Mrs Meir. I held the rank of Captain at the time. She ascended to the position of foreign minister when Levi Eshkol died in 1969 but I was already flying missions over Vietnam at the time. Thats how I come to know Mrs Meir.
As to the 1948 war when Israel was virtually unarmed, they had some weapons left over from their long running small skirmishes with arabs. But they had one thing the Arabs did not have.......a Western ability to analyse and plan. The Arabs were well equipped disciplined armies who could not fight. The new Israelis out planned them, out fought them and in the process picked up even more weapons that were dropped as the arab armies were beaten. And keep in mind, many of the new Israelis had served in other armies prior to WW2 and were therefore not novices and they brought with them their earlier experience. The final reason why they won......the Israelis were fighting for their lives. The arabs were fighting for land. When your life is at stake, you tend to fight harder and smarter.
One more thing.......I know more about Israel and Mrs Meir than you for two reasons.........I am Jewish and I have relatives and friends living in Israel and we talk ands what happens in Israel is of great importance to me.

[Buck Laser]

Well! I'd say CWN has been utterly, completely and irrevocably owned by Newscaster.:D:D Newscaster was there, on the ground, and in a position to know whereof he spoke. while CWN was a little preschool kid.

I s'pose it's hopeless, but my resolution for CWN for the next year would be to learn a little humility. After all, he's certainly got a great deal to be humble about.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But I am very interested in everything in Israel too.
2. I have also been there, and loved every minute I was there.
3. Except the time I was in Hebron, and some one threw a large rock at the back door of my car.
4. I thought it was a shot gun blast.
5. But when I got to another city, and showed up at a police station, they told me nope it was a rock, not a shot gun.
6. It was kinda weird when I went to the police station.
7. I drove up the drive way, and at the station guard, he told me to go park in the street and come back.
8. Then I did, and then the officer said, "Where's your car?"
9. I said, "Its on the street"
10. He said, " Go get it and bring it in"
11. I said, "Okay".
12. When I got past the guard, and parked in the parking lot, he said, "Nope you were hit by a stone"
13. Made a police report and went on my way.
14. The place where I rented the car wanted me to pay for it when I returned the car, I said, "It wasn't my fault, it was an act of terrorism, I won't pay for it."
15. They were kinda upset at me, but they said, "Okay"

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Buck Laser]

Someone throws a rock through yer window in Israel, and you're the highly trained advisor on Israel? Give. Me. A. Fuckin'. Break!!

[CheesyMuslim]

Well!Â*Â*I'd say CWN has been utterly, completely and irrevocably owned by Newscaster.:D:DÂ*Â*Newscaster was there, on the ground, and in a position to know whereof he spoke. while CWN was a little preschool kid.

I s'pose it's hopeless, but my resolution for CWN for the next year would be to learn a little humility.Â*Â*After all, he's certainly got a great deal to be humble about.



Sorry bout that,

1. But I agree, I have much to be humble for, and its because I am so well loved by Gawd.
2. If anything is more humbling its being loved by the creator.
3. Greatness and humility go hand in hand, thanks for reminding me Buck.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[CheesyMuslim]

Someone throws a rock through yer window in Israel, and you're the highly trained advisor on Israel?Â*Â*Give. Me. A. Fuckin'. Break!!


Sorry bout that,

1. But old man don't get in a lather , its Christmas Day.
2. You seem rather itchy to get into it old man.
3. The rock hit the door old man, read it again,...hehehehehe,..
4. That's why it was so loud.
5. Have you ever been to Israel old man?
6. Thought not!

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Buck Laser]

So explain to me again how a rock through a window makes you an expert? I must have missed that part.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But you are losing it old man.
2. I don't get what you mean.
3. Anyway, Merry Christmas Old Man.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Buck Laser]

5. Have you ever been to Israel old man?
6. Thought not!

Let me get this straight: the fact that you claim to have been to Israel makes you an expert on all things Israeli?

And the fact that I haven't been there renders me incapable of judging between your cockamamie opinion and Newscaster's reasoned stance?

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But me and Newscaster are not arguing here dude a rooney.
2. Seems like you are thou?
3. What's wrong with you?
4. You seem over bearing here.
5. You trying to make an argument between me and Newscaster?
6. We wonder what's gotten into you???
7. But never mind, your just being Buck.
8. Seems we were kind of agreeing on some stuff, then you popped in and started ranting.
9. Hehehehehehehehe,...........

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Elrathin]

8. Seems we were kind of agreeing on some stuff, then you popped in and started ranting.


Yes, on some stuff, then there was this exchange that Buck was talking about :


No Chess....you do not know what I know.



1. But what do you know of Golda Meir?
2. Seeing you say I don't know what you know.
3. I'm interested in hearing what it is.
4. Seeing we agree to a degree about the greatness of Golda Meir.
5. Explain how Israel defended itself from a five prong attack, when it was just recently formed?
6. How did that happen?



Chess, I dont want to embarrass you any more than yopu embarrass yourself so I suggest you withdraw the question.


so Chess, sounds like you were wanting Newscaster to agree with you, but he didn't. And such, another Chess statement has been proven wrong. And Merry Christmas Chess.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. Newscaster and I had an agreement going, now we got a second buttinskie trying to stir up trouble, again!
2. He has had some actual contact with The Miracle worker Golda Meir herself.
3. And all you dude a rooneys do is try to inflame the both of us, while we both have been very civil towards this topic and each other.
4. You two are being very immature towards this topic, seeing its very serious, and its about the memory of a very great Person, who was a Jew, in whom I respect immensely.
5. Your disregard for her, is deplorable.
6. And your tactics of trying to inflame this topic is rather snake-ish.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Elrathin]

1. Newscaster and I had an agreement going, now we got a second buttinskie trying to stir up trouble, again!
2. He has had some actual contact with The Miracle worker Golda Meir herself.
3. And all you dude a rooneys do is try to inflame the both of us, while we both have been very civil towards this topic and each other.
4. You two are being very immature towards this topic, seeing its very serious, and its about the memory of a very great Person, who was a Jew, in whom I respect immensely.
5. Your disregard for her, is deplorable.
6. And your tactics of trying to inflame this topic is rather snake-ish.


Again, don't let the facts interfere with you Chess. My point stands unrefuted. Thanks again.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. Your point is pointless, dude a rooney.
2. Man you must live one helluva boring life.
3. Hehehehehe,......

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Elrathin]

1. Your point is pointless, dude a rooney.


It's so pointless you feel the need to respond Chess with no PROOF, even though I provided it.

Thanks again Chess, and no my life isn't boring, far from it. However I am not the one so pointless to have to give myself "titles" to improve self-esteem LOL. Thanks again for the laughs Chess, you're a riot.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,


Snatched from: Hagshama.org
Golda Meir (1898-1978)
By: Rochelle Mass



I believe we will have peace with our neighbors. But I am certain that if Israel is not strong there will not be peace.�



In January, 1948, Golda Meir flew to the United States to raise funds for the arms that were urgently needed to defend the 700,000 Jews in Palestine who were threatened with Arab attacks. She made an unscheduled appearance before the Council of Jewish Federations in Chicago, on January 2nd, 1948. Her speech moved thousands to give more. The Israeli Prime Minister, Ben Gurion later described the result of her mission: "Someday when history is written, it will be said that there was a Jewish woman who got the money which made the State possible."

Golda Meir asked "Jews the world over, and mainly Jews in the United States, to give us the possibility of going on with the struggle… You cannot decide whether we should fight or not. We will… That decision is taken. Nobody can change that. You can only decide one thing: whether we shall be victorious in this fight… That decision American Jews can make."

*

Golda Mabovitch Meyerson, better known as Golda Meir, or simply Golda, was a founder of the modern state of Israel. Her name ranks in the Zionist pantheon with Theodor Herzl, Chaim Weizmann and David Ben Gurion. Golda Meir was the Iron Lady of Israeli politics years before the epithet was coined for Margaret Thatcher. She was once described as ‘the only man in the Cabinet.’

It is difficult to do justice to the accomplishments and importance of Golda Meir. As the first (and to date, only) female prime minister of Israel, Meir broke important ground for her gender, as well as for government. She was a visionary, an incomparable fund-raiser, and one of the most accomplished women of the twentieth century. Meir never saw her gender as the explanation for her own or other women’s difficulties or challenges in life, nor as a basis upon which to organize and act politically.

Unlike the other legendary figures, Golda was shaped by her formative years as an American. For fifteen years, from the ages of eight to twenty-three, Golda Mabovich lived in Milwaukee and then Denver where she met her future husband, Morris Meyerson. She was also exposed to Socialist Zionist and Labor Zionist philosophies that would shape her political career.

*

Golda Meir was born in Kiev in l898. Golda recounts: "When I was a small child, we lived in Kiev, Ukraine and were poor. Often we didn’t have enough food, warm clothes or even heating at home. I remember being afraid. I heard about the pogroms that had been carried out, and knew that they were planning terrible things for the Jews. My father tried to bar the entrance to our house with wooden beams. I was scared and angry; I wanted my father to do more to protect us. I felt that people who wanted to survive had to do something for themselves."

Economic hardship forces her family to emigrate to the United States in l906; they settled in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, where Golda graduated from Teachers’ College and taught in the public schools. During her adolescence, Golda met two young Jews whom the Turks had banished from Palestine, David Ben Gurion (Green) and Yitzhak Ben Tzvi. They had come to North America to find young volunteers who would fight along with the British to free the land of Israel from Turkish rule. They spoke about kibbutz and talked about pioneer life in Israel. Ben Tzvi mentioned his friend, Rachel Yanait. Golda saw in this woman a perfect example of someone who was both a pioneer and a fighter, someone on equal terms with men.


Her childhood memories of the Russian pogroms and meeting these exceptional individuals were to influence Golda. She decided to dedicate her life to Zionism and wanted the Jews to have a country for themselves. At 17, she wrote to her friend Morris Myerson: "I know that you are not as interested as I am in living in Eretz Yisrael, but I ask that you come with me anyway." Morris agreed, and at the age of 19, they married in December 1917, one month after Britain declared support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine.

Golda joined the Poalei Zion (Labor Zionist Organization) in l915 and she and her husband settled in Palestine in l921 during the period of the Third Aliya, and joined kibbutz Merhavia. (Her husband died in l951. She adopted the Hebrew name Meir, ‘to burn brightly’ in l956)

"Life in Merhavia was hard," she remembers. "There was very little to eat, and what there was had an awful taste: sour porridge, rancid oil, and salty fish. The pioneers lived in huts and the toilets and showers were outside, far from the huts. It was especially hard for people to get to the toilets when they were sick with malaria and high fever." There, in spite of her fear of chickens, she became an expert on raising poultry. Soon she was representing the kibbutz at meetings.

Although Golda quickly adjusted to these harsh conditions of kibbutz life, she quickly became involved in political and social activities that took her away from the kibbutz to Jerusalem where they began to raise their two children. Golda’s early years in America shaped her thinking and her career - not to mention her spoken Hebrew which was marked with English sounding pronunciations - and helped lay the groundwork for her rapid rise in Israeli politics.

In l928, however, Meir was offered a job in Tel Aviv as secretary of the Histadrut (General Federation of Labor) Council for Women Workers, leaving her husband and essentially ending their marriage, although they never divorced. "This is a new type of woman," she said, "who does not let her husband narrow her horizons."

A charismatic speaker, she rapidly became a spokeswoman for the Histadrut. She was soon on the Executive Committee of the Histadrut, (the strongest organization of the Jewish community in the years before the establishment of the State) then the head of its political department. During World War II she held several important positions in the World Zionist Organization and the Jewish Agency (the Jewish government of British-controlled Palestine, including serving as the Agency’s director for several years until declaration of the State of Israel.

Ben Gurion sent Golda to America to raise $25 million so that the State could purchase arms to defend itself. Golda met with thousands of Jews and spoke with quick wit, charm and passion: she collected fifty million dollars - twice her goal. She would return frequently to raise money from American Jewry. As an American herself, Meir saw it as American Jewry’s duty to help build the Jewish homeland.

In l948 David Gen-Gurion appointed Golda Meir to be a member of the Provisional Government. A few days before the Declaration of Independence, Ben-Gurion sent her disguised as an Arab on a hazardous mission to persuade King Abdullah of Jordan not to attack Israel, but the King had already decided that his army would invade the Jewish State following the British departure.

After the founding of the State in l948, Meir served in several key posts - ambassador to the U.S.S.R., and was chosen by Ben Gurion as Labor Minister in his first cabinet, and became Foreign Minister in l956, the second highest cabinet post. In that capacity, Meir built ties with the new countries that had emerged in Asia and Africa. Diagnosed with lymphoma, Golda Meir retired from government service in l966 but three years later, she, the ‘consensus candidate’, was persuaded by the Labor Party to appease factions and come out of retirement to serve as Prime Minister in l969 when her predecessor Levi Eshkol died. She served till l973. Shortly after she took office, the War of Attrition, sporadic military actions along the Suez Canal, escalated into full-scale war, ending in a cease-fire agreement with Egypt. Though the cease-fire was broken time and again by the advancement of Egyptian missiles on the Suez Canal front, it did bring a three-year period of tranquility, shattered only in October 1973 by the Yom Kippur War. During that time, Meir encouraged the emigration of thousands of Soviet Jews to Israel and strengthened relations with the United States.

Throughout her political career, Meir repeatedly shocked the world with her refusal to flaunt her position - she always flew coach and even washed her own laundry in hotels. And the way she discussed Israel’s security conditions with both foreign diplomats and local leaders in her kitchen, while in an apron, baking her renowned chocolate cake created the endearing term: Golda’s Kitchen Cabinet. She also attracted attention with the strength of her liberal political convictions, such as when she broke the color line in Rhodesia, insisting upon exporting Israeli technical and agricultural products to Africa.

Her political career ended with the trauma of the Yom Kippur War in l973, when Egypt and Syria caught Israel’s defense forces off guard in a coordinated surprise attack. Although exonerated by the Agranat Commission of Inquiry from direct responsibility for Israel’s lack of preparedness, she led her party to victory in the December l973 elections, yet, still facing criticism, Golda Meir bowed to what she felt was the ‘will of the people’. She resigned in June 1974, in favor of Yitzhak Rabin.

Golda Meir ultimately regained her status as a beloved figure in Israeli society. When she died in l978 at the age of 80, all of world Jewry mourned. In the early l970’s, polls revealed that Golda was the most respected woman in America, despite the fact that she was no longer an American. Meir artfully mixed personal diplomacy with skillful use of the mass media through her simple, yet highly effective rhetoric. She was honest, straightforward, and single-minded. In the eyes of the world, she personified the Israeli spirit. Golda Meir is now considered one of the great female heads of state in modern history.


1. She was one Great Leader, and was one if not The founder of modern day Israel.
2. I love it when I'm right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3. Yes she was one wonderful person, who did actually work Miracles, what a wonderful life she had!

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Newscaster]

Actually Chess, the reason we are not arguing at this point in time is that its just not worth my time or energy. You write that we are in some sort of agreement. Let me remind you of the following......your comment about me in reaction to your dueling with me:
"This twerp thinks he is some kind of Newscaster, can't spell worth crap, must be a liar, also is cheap as hell,..from CWN,..."
Well, the Twerp is not interested in trading barbs with you. So relax, and give my regards to Golda.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But this thread isn't about us and arguing, its about Golda Meir, The Great Nation Builder.
2. It wasn't a dream after all.
3. I think that Newscaster is just amazed how I,* The Highly Trained Conservative Political/Biblical Adviser *, gets it right so often, and Newscaster wishes he felt the same way I do about Golda Meir, when he actually felt little for her, and his regard for her was minor.
4. And seeing he had contact with her, years ago, he now realises he was all wrong about her, after he had an eye opener by The Great CWN.
5. And Newscaster wonders like hell, "What the hell do I know???"
6. And, "How the hell does this idiot come up with so much truth???"
7. Then he says to himself, " This CWN maybe, just maybe has got something", and this just kills him.
8. All the while we got two devils advocates (Buck & Elrathin) trying to make this an argument, instead a *Memorial Thread*, to *The Great Person Golda Meir*.
9. Newscaster, you can't trade reputation comments, in order to have your true opinions revealed in my thread, this isn't a trade day thread, where I change my reputation comment for your opinions.
10. Sure my reputation comments are pointed, and factual, and I won't retract it, anyway, its not a big deal, kinda a badge of honor, coming from The Great CWN.
11. This place isn't for the thin skinned, neither is any debate site, I like what I said in the reputation points, for everyone I posted for, be it Negative/Positive and its kinda funny as well.
12. So get over it, and if you have something to say to disprove my thread say on, if you don't, and want to add why this thread is correct , then say that then.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[mumin]

Amazing how this thread went from Golda Meir to Palestine. Mr Mummin obviously is not aware or certain facts. The area known to some as Palestine, was actually Israel and people called Israelites were those who CAME FROM ISRAEL.
I guess you should read your Torah or learn ancient Jewish history.

Israel or Jacob (Yaqub pbuh) was the father of 12, from whom came the 12 tribes. Israel was not referred to as a land until MUCH later. There were many indigenous groups in that area before the Jews came over from Egypt and took the land. It wasn't a land without a people for a people without a land then, and it wasn't when the Zionist ideology started to take root in Europe in the late 1800s.

The name Palestine is actually a mistake. The Romans wanted to call it by that old name Philistine but they made a spelling mistake which became Palestine. In case you dont remember, the Philistines called among their own, that great warrior Goliath. Remember him....slaim by David? But thats just a sidebar. When the Romans formally conquored all of Israel in 70AD and thuse began the Disaspora (Dispersal) of the Jews, the land under dispute has been owned by the Romans, the Turks, and finally came under the control of the British.
I find it ridiculous to say the least that you bring up something that is 2,000 years old to justify your current injustices.

It was Palestine before 1948. It was Palestine before the British took over. It was Palestine after the Romans took control. There was a Palestine. Golda Meir was hopped up on something to have denied it existed.

So what if the Jews were displaced? There was NO GEOGRAPHIC ISRAEL for 2,000+ years, whereas there WAS a Palestine.

Notice, it was never under the control of any Arab group.
Not the 'land without a people for a people without a land' bullcrap again.

I guess the entire area was just ready for the taking before the British came! There were ARABS living there. The area had been under control of the Arabs and then the Ottomans since the 7th century.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." -David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.


The British who have been traditionally anti-Semitic, could not control the land which at this time was called TRANSJORDAN, not because of the people but because of the Jordan River.
Actually, the British Empire was weakened by WWII. Notice how so many former British colonies declared independence between the mid to late 40s.

Oh, not to mention the terrorist activities carried out by Zionists in the area, many which were headed by your Prime Ministers. Remember the Stern Gang? The bombing of the King David Hotel (which was cold-blooded murder of the British, Arabs, and even some Jews who weren't following the Zionist agenda) that many Israelis CELEBRATE?

And when it was time to put the Balfour Declaration into effect, the United Nations took the land called TRansJordan
The Balfour Declaration was before the Holocaust, just so you know. The Balfour Declaration was also created in part thanks to the Zionist movement in Britain. The Holocaust was only used to legitimize the formation of Israel - on the basis of Western guilt and nothing else.

and set it aside.......the small parcel as a home land for Jews to be called Israel and the much larger part which became the nation of Jordan, which would be a homeland for the arabs of the area. Theb Arabs were not happy with the division and were totally incensed when the displaced Jews from Europe, who survived the Holocaust and others began moving in from all over the world.
Stop politicizing the Holocaust. It was an atrocity but it should NOT be used to justify anything!

And of course the Arabs wouldn't be happy. Their land was stolen by foreigners. The Palestinian Jews, who had been living with the Arabs for centuries, made up only 3% of the entire population before Zionism took root in Europe

Why did they move is? Because it was the one place on the entire planet where they would be completely welcome. And the very day that Israel was officially declared a nation, the armies of five arab nations attacked.
Quite a paradox huh? The "one place on the entire planet where they would be completely welcome" and yet "the very day that Israel was officially declared a nation, the armies of five arab nations attacked". I guess they were trying to tell you that your endeavors were NOT welcome there.

Now here are these big tough armies with rifles, cannons, tanks and even a few planes, attacking these Jews who were not at all armed, most still suffering the effects of the concentration camps and yet, they won. They picked up the weapons that were dropped on the battlefield and turned them against the arab attackers. And they won. They even won when Golda Meir was Prime Minister, a woman against those arab leaders who strutted around in medal bedecked uniforms, looking real tough. Prior to the establishment of Israel, the Jews had a slogan....."Next Year in Jerusalem". That slogan lasted until the Six Day War when Israel regained control over East Jerusalem.
And it was not David vs Goliath story here, since the Arabs were highly disorganized. There were 5 Arab nations, when there could have been one. The Arab leaders were highly nationalistic at that point (what with their independence being declared within the past few decades of 1948) and did not cooperate with each other.

Also, what does the concentration camp have to do with this? I'm sure the Israeli army wasn't made up of people still reeling from the horrors of the concentration camps! Most Israelis at the time were not from countries that were Nazi occupied. After all, the Nazis had killed off a whole lot of Jews. Many were Russians and from other Eastern European countries.

Then the slogan became...."Never Again." In other words "Never again will we be pushed around by anyone. Never again will they be led silently to gas chanbers and crematoriums."
It wasn't Arabs who put Jews in gas chambers and crematoriums. Your method of invoking the Holocaust to garner sympathy for injustice is amazing!

Since then, Israel has tried to live peacefully with its neighbors but that has been impossible. And so they had to get tough. Try to imagine living in a country surrounded by other nations who have all vowed to kill you and who attack on a daily basis.
You DID steal their land. The UN's verdict was pointless and logically flawed. Why was Palestine chosen, for example? Why not the US? New York state would have been perfect. Hell, post-Nazi Germany would be reeling from guilt and falling over itself (and still is) to serve the Jews.

Will you smile benignly or will you hit back and hit back harder each time?
No, I'd just up and leave, since I don't like to stealing.

Arabs complain about Israeli actions against them. Try living under the gun 365, 24/7. See how peaceful you remain.
Odd. The last time I heard about a place in that area being described as anything close to what you say Israel was under is Gaza. Many have called it the largest PRISON on earth.

Yes, Golda Meir was a great hero and a great leader but so were all the other Israeli leaders from David Ben Gurion to today's leaders. They were great because they had to be.

"If I was an Arab leader I would never make [peace] with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country." -First Prime Minister of Israel, David Ben Gurion

The only argument that I COULD find acceptable for Israel is the religious one, but since that belief results in the persecution of another, I do not accept it either. Eretz Israel calls for all the land between the Nile and the Euphrates to be in control of the Jews.

[mumin]

Amazing how this thread went from Golda Meir to Palestine. Mr Mummin obviously is not aware or certain facts. The area known to some as Palestine, was actually Israel and people called Israelites were those who CAME FROM ISRAEL.
I guess you should read your Torah or learn ancient Jewish history.

Israel or Jacob (Yaqub pbuh) was the father of 12, from whom came the 12 tribes. Israel was not referred to as a land until MUCH later. There were many indigenous groups in that area before the Jews came over from Egypt and took the land. It wasn't a land without a people for a people without a land then, and it wasn't when the Zionist ideology started to take root in Europe in the late 1800s.

The name Palestine is actually a mistake. The Romans wanted to call it by that old name Philistine but they made a spelling mistake which became Palestine. In case you dont remember, the Philistines called among their own, that great warrior Goliath. Remember him....slaim by David? But thats just a sidebar. When the Romans formally conquored all of Israel in 70AD and thuse began the Disaspora (Dispersal) of the Jews, the land under dispute has been owned by the Romans, the Turks, and finally came under the control of the British.
I find it ridiculous to say the least that you bring up something that is 2,000 years old to justify your current injustices.

It was Palestine before 1948. It was Palestine before the British took over. It was Palestine after the Romans took control. There was a Palestine. Golda Meir was hopped up on something to have denied it existed.

So what if the Jews were displaced? There was NO GEOGRAPHIC ISRAEL for 2,000+ years, whereas there WAS a Palestine.

Notice, it was never under the control of any Arab group.
Not the 'land without a people for a people without a land' bullcrap again.

I guess the entire area was just ready for the taking before the British came! There were ARABS living there. The area had been under control of the Arabs and then the Ottomans since the 7th century.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." -David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.


The British who have been traditionally anti-Semitic, could not control the land which at this time was called TRANSJORDAN, not because of the people but because of the Jordan River.
Actually, the British Empire was weakened by WWII. Notice how so many former British colonies declared independence between the mid to late 40s.

Oh, not to mention the terrorist activities carried out by Zionists in the area, many which were headed by your Prime Ministers. Remember the Stern Gang? The bombing of the King David Hotel (which was cold-blooded murder of the British, Arabs, and even some Jews who weren't following the Zionist agenda) that many Israelis CELEBRATE?

And when it was time to put the Balfour Declaration into effect, the United Nations took the land called TRansJordan
The Balfour Declaration was before the Holocaust, just so you know. The Balfour Declaration was also created in part thanks to the Zionist movement in Britain. The Holocaust was only used to legitimize the formation of Israel - on the basis of Western guilt and nothing else.

and set it aside.......the small parcel as a home land for Jews to be called Israel and the much larger part which became the nation of Jordan, which would be a homeland for the arabs of the area. Theb Arabs were not happy with the division and were totally incensed when the displaced Jews from Europe, who survived the Holocaust and others began moving in from all over the world.
Stop politicizing the Holocaust. It was an atrocity but it should NOT be used to justify anything!

And of course the Arabs wouldn't be happy. Their land was stolen by foreigners. The Palestinian Jews, who had been living with the Arabs for centuries, made up only 3% of the entire population before Zionism took root in Europe

Why did they move is? Because it was the one place on the entire planet where they would be completely welcome. And the very day that Israel was officially declared a nation, the armies of five arab nations attacked.
Quite a paradox huh? The "one place on the entire planet where they would be completely welcome" and yet "the very day that Israel was officially declared a nation, the armies of five arab nations attacked". I guess they were trying to tell you that your endeavors were NOT welcome there.

Now here are these big tough armies with rifles, cannons, tanks and even a few planes, attacking these Jews who were not at all armed, most still suffering the effects of the concentration camps and yet, they won. They picked up the weapons that were dropped on the battlefield and turned them against the arab attackers. And they won. They even won when Golda Meir was Prime Minister, a woman against those arab leaders who strutted around in medal bedecked uniforms, looking real tough. Prior to the establishment of Israel, the Jews had a slogan....."Next Year in Jerusalem". That slogan lasted until the Six Day War when Israel regained control over East Jerusalem.
And it was not David vs Goliath story here, since the Arabs were highly disorganized. There were 5 Arab nations, when there could have been one. The Arab leaders were highly nationalistic at that point (what with their independence being declared within the past few decades of 1948) and did not cooperate with each other.

Also, what does the concentration camp have to do with this? I'm sure the Israeli army wasn't made up of people still reeling from the horrors of the concentration camps! Most Israelis at the time were not from countries that were Nazi occupied. After all, the Nazis had killed off a whole lot of Jews. Many were Russians and from other Eastern European countries.

Then the slogan became...."Never Again." In other words "Never again will we be pushed around by anyone. Never again will they be led silently to gas chanbers and crematoriums."
It wasn't Arabs who put Jews in gas chambers and crematoriums. Your method of invoking the Holocaust to garner sympathy for injustice is amazing!

Since then, Israel has tried to live peacefully with its neighbors but that has been impossible. And so they had to get tough. Try to imagine living in a country surrounded by other nations who have all vowed to kill you and who attack on a daily basis.
You DID steal their land. The UN's verdict was pointless and logically flawed. Why was Palestine chosen, for example? Why not the US? New York state would have been perfect. Hell, post-Nazi Germany would be reeling from guilt and falling over itself (and still is) to serve the Jews.

Will you smile benignly or will you hit back and hit back harder each time?
No, I'd just up and leave, since I don't like to stealing.

Arabs complain about Israeli actions against them. Try living under the gun 365, 24/7. See how peaceful you remain.
Odd. The last time I heard about a place in that area being described as anything close to what you say Israel was under is Gaza. Many have called it the largest PRISON on earth.

Yes, Golda Meir was a great hero and a great leader but so were all the other Israeli leaders from David Ben Gurion to today's leaders. They were great because they had to be.

"If I was an Arab leader I would never make [peace] with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country." -First Prime Minister of Israel, David Ben Gurion

The only argument that I COULD find acceptable for Israel is the religious one, but since that belief results in the persecution of another, I do not accept it either. Eretz Israel calls for all the land between the Nile and the Euphrates to be in control of the Jews.

EDIT: Before I get labeled an anti-Semite (aren't Arabs Semites as well?), I, as well as the majority of Arabs/Muslims, do not want 'Jews to be pushed into the sea' or whatever other retarded statement is made by some reactionary moron in the Arab/Muslim world (and if you label me an anti-Semite, then I think that you are also a reactionary moron). It's a simple change of citizenship and land ownership. Outside of the United States and Canada, support for Israel is much less viral and blind.

In recent developments:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6210721.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6213193.stm

But, in the end, Israel will get what it wants, regardless of how much the US protests (which is mostly a meaningless gesture to begin with).

[mumin]

More quotes:

http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=21056

Warning: It's a Muslim forum with varying views on many things, except Israel.

[Newscaster]

Mummin, that was amazing. Unfortunately, I lost interest about a quarter of the way thru it. You said, maybe I ought to read my bible. Its not MY bible. It is THE bible. I dont own it and I did not wqrite it. I just read what it says, I obey the tenets of my faith and thats that. But fortunately, my career made it necessary for me to know more about middle east history than the average Jew, Muslim or Christian.
There is an old saying Mummin....Thou Protest Too Much. When you unload all that history that I believe you dont understand, my level of interest goes down.
But while you are suggesting that I read the bible, I have a suggestion for you.
Put yourself in the shoes of an Israeli who has been under attack by his geographical neighbors on a daily basis for almost 60 years. Imagine yourself walking thru streets where the guy next to you might blow himself up killing himself, you and all those around you. Imagine attending a wedding and having a bomb blow it up. Tell me how you would not retaliate. Tell me how you would restrain yourself anot not go after nations that have sworn to wipe you out.
Try that Mummin and try it honestly as though you really were an Israeli Jew.

[mumin]

I already responded to such a hypothetical situation, but you apparently 'lost interest about a quarter of the way thru it'. Quite unskillful way of avoiding my points.

Seriously, why do people continue to move to Israel then? Zionists have been unwelcome since before Israel. They were terrorists pre-1948 in order to further their agenda, then once Israel was declared a nation, they became prime ministers and generals.

See, those events that you describe would not have happened if people stopped leaving their good homes in the US or Canada or the UK or elsewhere and relocating to Israel and then persecuting Palestinians. A bomb goes off at a wedding and kills little. A town gets leveled (e.g. Genin) and that is NOTHING in comparison? Power stations are shut off. Access to clean water supplies are shut off. Tanks and bulldozers level houses that a family had been living in for generations. Their only source of income, olive trees, are uprooted to make room for settlers.

Save me the Israeli suffering, since it is COMPLETELY brought upon the Israelis by themselves. No one asked them to come to Israel and steal lands, with the help of tanks and high tech military weaponry, supplied by the US; oh, and free housing and citizenship if you're Jewish (clearly racist, if this was applied to any other race).


Israeli Jews enjoy first world conditions thanks to international aid. Palestinians have their assets frozen (especially taxes) by Israel. They have enough to afford first world conditions and plenty left to raise one of the world's best armies. Save me the boo hoo.

And guess what? In 2006, amid decreasing attacks from Palestine, MORE Palestinians have been killed by Israelis - three times more than 2005!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6215769.stm

By the way, it is YOUR bible, since 'bible' means 'book'. And your book can be anything, since I am not completely sure of your religion.

[mumin]

Also, another flaw in your logic is that you're assuming that the Israelis were innocent and didn't do a thing to deserve what they got.

They STOLE land. You can't just ignore history. If I were like you, I can just barge into a stranger's house with a gun and say it's mine, and then cry when the owner retaliates (and then also take over the neighbour's house if he was sympathetic to this guy). I would definitely deserve whatever I would have coming to me if I were to do something like that.

Oh, and if you really are a newscaster, sorry that still doesn't make you an expert because:
a) you're apparently Jewish, so you're going to mostly have an inherent bias
b) you work in the United States, so your sources are not the most reliable in terms of objectivity

Newsmen in Europe, for example, hold a very different stance on Israel than you do. Also, being of your profession yet failing to rebut my points by simply saying that you know more about the issue than others speaks ill about you. You have to back up what you say with FACTS - and not just one-sided ones. I think this mythical thing is called journalistic integrity.

[Newscaster]

Mummin.....I dont assume anything. I lived thru the history, I do research where necessary and I speak in truths not in rhetoric.
And one other thing......I dont know a thing about you. Therefore your credibility is suspect. And as such, I am under no obligation to even consider your statements.
I dont know how educated you are, your nationality, your allegiances, you age or where you live. You are an unknown to me and I will continue to regard you as such unless you decide to fill me in on just who you are.

[mumin]

Mummin.....I dont assume anything. I lived thru the history, I do research where necessary and I speak in truths not in rhetoric.
And one other thing......I dont know a thing about you. Therefore your credibility is suspect. And as such, I am under no obligation to even consider your statements.
I dont know how educated you are, your nationality, your allegiances, you age or where you live. You are an unknown to me and I will continue to regard you as such unless you decide to fill me in on just who you are.

Here's the thing:

Credibility means nothing online. So, either you rebut the points or you don't. You have obviously chosen the latter option and left the argument standing. I don't care who or what you are as it is completely irrelevant to the matter at hand. How do you know you're not being lied to online? So, to continue this debate, credibility, either yours or mine, is completely irrelevant.

In fact, it doesn't even matter if I am Muslim or not when it comes to this discussion. Your claim of living through history gives you little credibility, since you lived through history as an observer - and not even a primary observer - and not a participant. Unless you have served in the IDF, your credibility is completely useless. It shouldn't matter if you're Israeli and thus hate Palestinians or Palestinian and thus hate Israelis.

It is, after all, a debate. Credibility is of little use in a debate, since the facts are what count. You present your side and rebuttal, now that I have extensively provided rebuttals to you. Dodging the issue is not an acceptable rebuttal.

[Newscaster]

Gosh Mummin, tell me who, how and when was the land stolen. In 70AD, the Jews who lived in Israel were ousted by Romans and thus began the disaspora. Thats a fact. There were some arabs who lived in the area but they never established thmselves or organized themselves into a coherent government with a charter, laws, language, character, flag, army and certainly no internationally recognized border. Thats another fact. During the time between the departure of the Romans and the entry of the Jews, the land was occupied and controlled by first the Ottoman empire and then when they left, the British was asked by the League lkf Nations to govern them area. GOVERN, not own. And you are correct, the Balfour Declaration was long before WW2 but it was a promise made by Lord Balfour, speaking for the British Govt. And when WW2 ended, the British knew they would be leaving rather quickly and they took the land, now lnown as TransJordan and divided it. The large portion for the Arabs and the small portion for the Jews. Thats a fact and another fact is that there was no theft of land in any way shape manner or form. It was a legal use of unincorporated land, one that was recognized and approved by the United Nations. Thats another fact. And the arabs did declare war on the war weary Jews from Europe who streamed to their new homeland. Those arabs living in the disputed territpry, left at the urging of Haj Ali Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jersusalem, who spent the entire war as a Guest of Adolf Hitler. Thats another fact. It was George Goebbels who taught Husseini the theory of the bjg lie....tell a lie often enough and loud enough and people will come to believe it and they have been feeding that same lie all these years, you know it...its the one you accepted as truth.
Now ever since 1948, when the arab armies were defeated and the Jews settled in hoping to live in peace, its a fact that they turned a worthless desert into a blooming garden. They established industry, science, the arts, education and all the perks of a modern work into a 20th Century Marvel and they did it without oceans of oil under their feet. Irf you look at the arab nations that surround Israel, without oil, they would be the same desert wastelands they were before the wells were dug. And their people would be as poor as ever since the riches of those lands go to the Sheiks, Princes, Emirs and Kings. Thats a fact. And those facts do not change whether I am Jewish or not. As far as serving in the IDF, remember I mentioned that I was an assistant military attache at the US Embassy in Tel Aviv.
As such I dealt on a daily basis with the IAF. I am certain they are as credible as the IDF.
So, tell me......where was the theft? West Bank? King Hussein of Jordan relinquished control of that land after it fell into israeli hands during the 6 day war that was started by arabs. He refused to sue for its return. FACT. At the same time, Israel also captured the entire Sinai Peninsula. In case you dont know it, the rusting hulks of Egyptian tanks still line the roadways across Sinai to this day. But, after the Yom Kippur war, where the Israeli armies forged their way to within sight of Syria's capital and Cairo, the Israelis returned the entire sinai peninsula to the Egyptians with the sole exception of Gaza. FACT. Why? Because Egypt said it didnt want Gaza back because the people there were more trouble then they were worth. That from a fellow arab. FACT. So Israel was stuck with it until they handed it over to the so-called Palestinians who are today in the process of turning it into a trash heap thanks to Hamas. SO WHERE WAS THE THEFT MUMMIN?
nEXT YOU ARE GOING TO SAY YOU WANT TO KNOW WHERE I GOT MY INFORMATION. WELL BABY, I GOT IT BY LIVING THRU THOSE TIMES IN THAT AREA. I got it by studying, by traveling and observing, and by having friends who live full time in the middle east.
Now if you dont like my facts, thats too bad.
And finally, you say credibility means nothing online. Well credibility means everything to me, on line or off. And I have heard your arguments before, time and time again and they have been rebutted time and time again. Have a nice day.

[mumin]

Gosh Mummin, tell me who, how and when was the land stolen.
Here's how theft works (or how it worked in the case of Israel).

You own something (e.g. land). I come in and expel you by force. BUT, just to have an air of legitimacy, I use the guilt of those who had wronged me before to support my unjust expulsion of you. That is how the partition occurred. What was the reason for having this partition occur in Palestine? Why not in the US? Why not in an area whose locals were willing to accept a Jewish state in their midst?

In 70AD, the Jews who lived in Israel were ousted by Romans and thus began the disaspora. Thats a fact.
I do not accept land claims over 2000 years old and neither should any sane person. With that logic, Americans should be barging back to the UK or wherever and claiming lands because their ancestors lived there.

There were some arabs who lived in the area but they never established thmselves or organized themselves into a coherent government with a charter, laws, language, character, flag, army and certainly no internationally recognized border. Thats another fact.
YES, they did. It was part of the Islamic caliphate since the 7th century. It wasn't even occupation, since what the Arabs found in Jerusalem was a waste dump. There was practically no one living there; there was no Israel then.

During the time between the departure of the Romans and the entry of the Jews, the land was occupied and controlled by first the Ottoman empire and then when they left
What a laugh! They didn't 'leave'. They were defeated by the British and by the infighting between the (stupid) nationalistic Arabs and Ottomans. The land was conquered, but the residents were still 90%+ Arabs, both Muslim and Christian.

the British was asked by the League lkf Nations to govern them area. GOVERN, not own.
So? This gives credence to the fact that the British had even less control as to who gets the land, then.

And you are correct, the Balfour Declaration was long before WW2 but it was a promise made by Lord Balfour, speaking for the British Govt. And when WW2 ended, the British knew they would be leaving rather quickly and they took the land, now lnown as TransJordan and divided it. The large portion for the Arabs and the small portion for the Jews.
If you'd research the Balfour Declaration, you'd realize that this division was largely thanks to the Zionist groups in Britain at the time. Jews were living PEACEFULLY among Arabs. The fact that there were Jews living among Muslims for centuries is testament to that fact. WHY was there a need for a Jewish state?

Thats a fact and another fact is that there was no theft of land in any way shape manner or form. It was a legal use of unincorporated land, one that was recognized and approved by the United Nations.
Not everything the UN deems legal or illegal is necessarily correct or even right. The UN was created soon after WWII. It was formed by nations who were guilty of anti-Semitism and they knew it. The UN also labeled Zionism a racist philosophy, no different from apartheid South Africa in the mid-70s (which was overturned in the early 90s, thanks largely to Bush Sr.). I'm guessing Israel agreed with that?

And the arabs did declare war on the war weary Jews from Europe who streamed to their new homeland. Those arabs living in the disputed territpry, left at the urging of Haj Ali Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jersusalem, who spent the entire war as a Guest of Adolf Hitler. Thats another fact. It was George Goebbels who taught Husseini the theory of the bjg lie....tell a lie often enough and loud enough and people will come to believe it and they have been feeding that same lie all these years, you know it...its the one you accepted as truth.
Could you tell me what this 'lie' is?

I was waiting for the point when you'd invoke Husseini as if he is some moral standard (I'm guessing you've seen that trashy movie called 'Obsession'?). While you're at it, why not invoke the Eastern European Muslims who served under Hitler (but were also the very first to mutiny)? Those two points are irrelevant in the justification of Israel being established where it did. In fact, they're irrelevant to the establishment of Israel completely.

Now ever since 1948, when the arab armies were defeated and the Jews settled in hoping to live in peace, its a fact that they turned a worthless desert into a blooming garden.
No.

Khalidi, Walid. Before Their Diaspora: A Photographic History of the Palestinians 1876-1948. Washington DC: Institute for Palestine Studies, 1991.

"Contrary to prevailing opionion in the Western world, the Palestinians were responsible for the bulk of agricutural production in the country during the British Mandate. By the end of the Mandate, the total land area under cultivation by Palestinian farmers (excluding citrus) was 5,484, 700 dunams (one dunum=one thousand square meters, and the area cultivated by Jewish farmers was 435,500 dunums.1 With regard to desert cultivation, by 1935 The Palestinians were farming 2,109,234 dunams in the Negev,2 whereas total Jewish landholdings in the Negev in 1946 did not exceed 21,000 dunams. Thus it was the Palestinians who made the desert bloom!" (125)

1. A Survey of Palestine: Prepared in December 1945 and January 1946 for the Information of the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, 2 vols. and supp. (Jerusalem: Government of Palestine, 1946), 1:323.

2. The Area of Cultivable Land in Palestine (Jerusalem Jewish Agency, 1936), p. 13.

They established industry, science, the arts, education and all the perks of a modern work into a 20th Century Marvel and they did it without oceans of oil under their feet.
Ah, you conveniently forgot their sources. They were receiving funding from Britain until their focus shifted to the US. The US pays 1/3rd of all its foreign aid to Israel. It has given over $100 billion to Israel. That's more than $10,000 per Israeli (whereas if you compare with ALL the other nations that receive American aid, it averages to $59/person). Many major corporations are owned by Zionists who make major contributions and investments in Israel. There are many Christian and Jewish donors alike; the Christians are mostly in it to force fulfilment of prophecy.

Irf you look at the arab nations that surround Israel, without oil, they would be the same desert wastelands they were before the wells were dug.
Racial superiority? It is just fine and dandy to insult an entire race for you, isn't it? The Jews were able to 'make the desert bloom' but those damn Arabs! They'd be sleeping in the sand if it weren't for the oil!

Just so you know, Arabs were fine without oil for centuries. They led the world in all areas of science and technology, as well as arts and humanities.

And their people would be as poor as ever since the riches of those lands go to the Sheiks, Princes, Emirs and Kings. Thats a fact.
Yep, you're correct. I agree. One of the greatest enemies of Islam are the corrupt rulers of those countries.

And those facts do not change whether I am Jewish or not. As far as serving in the IDF, remember I mentioned that I was an assistant military attache at the US Embassy in Tel Aviv.
As such I dealt on a daily basis with the IAF. I am certain they are as credible as the IDF.
Fair enough.

So, tell me......where was the theft? West Bank?
The theft was the initial squatting on Palestinian lands, mostly by acts of terrorism, against the Arabs and the governing Brits.

King Hussein of Jordan relinquished control of that land after it fell into israeli hands during the 6 day war that was started by arabs. He refused to sue for its return. FACT.
At the same time, Israel also captured the entire Sinai Peninsula. In case you dont know it, the rusting hulks of Egyptian tanks still line the roadways across Sinai to this day. But, after the Yom Kippur war, where the Israeli armies forged their way to within sight of Syria's capital and Cairo, the Israelis returned the entire sinai peninsula to the Egyptians with the sole exception of Gaza. FACT. Why? Because Egypt said it didnt want Gaza back because the people there were more trouble then they were worth. That from a fellow arab. FACT.So Israel was stuck with it until they handed it over to the so-called Palestinians who are today in the process of turning it into a trash heap thanks to Hamas.

Unlike you, who believes every Israeli Prime Minister was a hero, I believe that the nationalistic rulers of the Arab nations (and the Muslim world at large) are a shame to Islam.

Israel was stuck with it? No country can be 'stuck' with land, since it's easy to relinquish its control to the locals. The result of the war with Egypt and the release of the Sinai back to Egypt was thanks to the pro-West Anwar Sadat, who accepted the existence of Israel. Now, Egypt is a sham of a democracy. Oh, and if that land is so worthless, why are new settlements being built in Gaza? I posted a link before and you missed it.

The goal of the founding Zionists was not getting 'stuck' with land.

Ben Gurion sets the frontiers of the soon-to-be state of Israel:

"to the north, the Litani river [in southern Lebanon], to the northeast, the Wadi 'Owja, twenty miles south of Damascus; the southern border will be mobile and pushed into Sinai at least up to Wadi al-'Arish; and to the east, the Syrian Desert, including the furthest edge of Transjordan" (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 87)

Here's a map: http://lw.palestineremembered.com/Maps/New/Map_GreaterIsreal.gif

That was the goal.

Also, Hamas has always wanted all the land back. All the land in which Arabs lived for centuries. Their primary goal is to reclaim that land. It is hard to do that when:
a) you don't have funds to rear a legitimate army, especially to counter the American funded Israeli army
b) support for you from among your own (Muslims) is mixed at best

SO WHERE WAS THE THEFT MUMMIN?

Ask Ben Gurion and don't take my word for it:
"If I was an Arab leader I would never make [peace] with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country." -First Prime Minister of Israel, David Ben Gurion

Normally, conquered nations have their governments and rulers ousted, not the locals. The Palestinian Arabs were EXPELLED from their lands following the conquest by Israeli forces. When the Americans and the Spanish conquered the Philippines, for example, they didn't remove the locals from their lands to make room for their own.

In 1906, in the early stages of Zionism, most Jews living in Palestine were Russian Orthodox Jews and were about 8% of the population. Zionist Jews (those NOT from the area) made up less than 1%.

Also, there is something called the 'individual'. If tomorrow, let's say, some terrorists take over the US by military might and demand you leave your homes and leave the US so that they can provide land for their army and followers, wouldn't you call it theft?

nEXT YOU ARE GOING TO SAY YOU WANT TO KNOW WHERE I GOT MY INFORMATION. WELL BABY, I GOT IT BY LIVING THRU THOSE TIMES IN THAT AREA. I got it by studying, by traveling and observing, and by having friends who live full time in the middle east.
I don't ask for sources if I am already aware of the information.

Now if you dont like my facts, thats too bad.
I don't like them only because they do a bad job in rebutting all my points.

And finally, you say credibility means nothing online. Well credibility means everything to me, on line or off.
Tough. Credibility is completely useless online. It takes seconds to find sources online and half a brain to determine if the source is completely biased or has a shred of objectivism.

And I have heard your arguments before, time and time again and they have been rebutted time and time again. Have a nice day.
I'd like to see some of those rebuttals. I simply haven't seen any legitimate rebuttal to the theft of the land.

In fact, post them on the MPACUK forums (you don't have to be British to register), since I myself won't be able to handle those pre-fabricated arguments singlehandedly. There is a Jewish person there who is anti-Israel who posts there as well (goes by the name of 'People of the Book'). Ultra-Orthodox Jews are notorious for being anti-Israel. Those within Israel have only recently made the Zionist agenda a religious one - the founders of Zionism were far from model Jews in terms of practice.

[Newscaster]

Mummin, I have heard your arguments many times over as I have said and they simply dont hold water.
Lets begin.....The British partition was started in an attempt to keep the violence to a minimum if possible. But in the process, the British did their darndest to keep out any Jews who attempted to enter the area. Remember, there was a Jewish presence in the region since 70AD. They had established roots there and maintained ties to the land continuously. Arabs living in the area were constantly involved in skirmishes with the Jews. So the idea that they leaved peacefully, side by side, prior to WW2 is baloney. And I shall not answer your question why there was not a similiar partition in the U.S. because it is so nonsensical as not to rate an answer.
As far as you not accepting the fact of the Diaspora....who cares whether you accept it or not. The world accepts it.
How about your 7th Century Caliphate being just as boguds as you think the Diaspora is. Remember, arabs in the region were primarily nomadic and because of their constant moving around, they did not settle areas long enough to prove ownership. And when you say they found Jerusalem to be a waste dump, just backs up my argument that arabs were late comers to that specific region. If the Jews were not there.......then arabs had hundreds of years of freedom to treat the city as they wishes, thus turning it into the dump you speak of. And let me askyou something about cities. In what is now Saudi Arabia, the city of Medina was at one time a prediminatly Jewish city until Muhammed arrived and using force, tried to get Jews to convert to Islam. When they didt, he killed them. Since that city was once Jewish, shall Jews claim ownership today and kick out the Saudis? But still on the issue of a city that was a trash dump......look at what the arabs are doing to GAZA even now.
Regarding the British control of the Holy Land, if you were to do some research into the British Empire, in those days and today as well, the Brits are not the greatest of friends to Jews. Thats why under their control, turmoil erupted as Jews moved in, leaving the wreackage that was Europe. When it became obvious that the British has lost control of the situation, they informed the U.N. Once again, I will remind you that the area was called TRans-Jordan, a name used on maps around the world, signifying acceptance of THAT name. The Name Palestine, at the time was similiar then to what we in the United States call an area like "The Deep South". The Deep South is not an official name. Its just a reference to an area. If I said I live in the Deep South, I still have not told you where I live. But I dont think you would understand that.
Now you bring up the group known as Zionists. Zionists were a political organization whose work involved establishing a homeland for Jews in or as close to their historical homeland as possible. And they did their work wekk because they proved thru land ownership documents, legal ramifications and testimony that the land known as Trans Jordon belonged to no one. It was just there. It was inhabited by both Jews and Arabs without the benefit of official boundaries, a constitution or charter, a language, army or set of laws. The UNited Nation based on evidence presented by the Zionists, chose that land as the future home for Jews and created a second new nation, Jordan, that would be for the arabs. But for some arabs that was not good enough for them. The fact that Jordan was ten times larger than the new Israel and has oil deposits whereas Israel does not, didnt matter to them. They just could not swallow the idea of living next door to Jews. And thats when the trouble began in earnest.
As far as the personal sentiments of individual member nations of the United Nations, there will always be bad apples in every bunch but whether you like it or not, the action the UN took was legal, it was internationally recognized and permanent.
Mummin, you ask the question....Why was there a need for a Jewish State? Because the Jews had been deprived of a homeland for almost two thousand years. Because they had been kicked around by all sorts of people for almost two thousand years and simply because it was the right thing to do. And iof you cannot accept that....tough.
Now, you can quote writers who you believe make a valid case for the arabs but lets face it, Khalidi Walid had a political agenda in writing his book and structured it to fit your arguments. This does not mean it fit the facts. So, I do my own research and come to my own conclusions not based on the words of someone who considers himself my enemy.
Now, you bring up the idea that Israel could never have achieved all the goals it has without US help. First, those goals were achieved because in the culture of Jewish Life, education comes first. Thats why we have such an abundance of scientists, writers, artists, etc. Now, lets take a look at that Jewish aid that you have so much trouble with. BNaving worked in the US embassy in Tel Aviv, I do have a slightly more than casual acquaintence with the issue. Yes, there is a lot of aid but it is not aid given as an outright gift. The aid comes in the form of loans and loan guarantees and unlike almost all countries that owe money to the United States, Israel is the only one that has paid back its loans in full and with interest.
There are outright gifts to the Israelis but they come from private organization and that money is not government funding. Thats why the Israelis have contributed more than their share to an ungrateful world. They have contributed medicines, technology, weaponry, art, music, song, humor, they hbave a flourishing agricultural industry. They have both heavy and light industry and there are one of the most powerful military forces in the world today.
As for arab contributions to the world.....algebra and oil. And oil may be on its last legs. Kuwait's major oil field is running dry. The Kuwaitis announced that just two weeks ago. And lets remember, when you talk about arab oil, the arabs didnt even realize that there was oil in the first place until American engineers came in to show you how to find it. That group today is called Aramco. I'm sure you've heard of it.
Squatting on arab lands? Squatting? A person squats somewhere when he does expect to stay for very long. Thats squatting. Jews lay down roots. There is an American author, Mark Twain, why visited Jerusalem and the Holy Land at the end of the 19th century. He wrote that he was greatly disappointed in what he found or should I say did not find. He found a vast wasteland with no people. Rem3ember, this is around the area now called East Jerudsalem. So, where were the people.
Jews who had a contuned presence in the region for more than three thousand years, they were there. They lived in homes, real homes. They operated farms, ran small businesses and had documents showing bills of sale for the property or other documents proving longevity. It was at the beginning of the twentieth century that the movement toward the middle east began by the Jews. Now, why would they pick such a hard scrapple place to live? Little water, lots of sand not suitable for angriculture. Why would they pick that? Just to annoy the arabs? No. They returned to what is now Israel because that land is the Jewish Homeland and always has been since long before the Romans moved into the area. The Torah explains this very well. The New Testament says so and even the Koran states that this was the home of Jews. Oh yes, you claim the return of the Sinai was due to Anwar Sadat. Yes, in part it was. Sadat sat down with the Israelis after the 1973 war and hashed out an agreement that stands to this day that he would recognize the sovereignty of Israel and its borders in exchange for the return of the Sinai. Now, in view of the history of relations between Israel and Egypt, Tel Aviv could have told Sadat to take a flying leap. They won the war in battle, a war that Egypt started and thats the end of the story. But no, the Israelis did not want to continue a state of beligerance and agreed. It was not all Sadats doing. But I admit, he was smart enough to see an opportunity to benefit by it and he took it. The only other Arab country that comes close is Jordan.
I really should explain to you why I mentioned Haj Amin Ali Husseini. First, you immediately knew about the man because you know as well as I do the disasterous role he played. As Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, he was the one calling the shots for the arabs. And after spending WW2 in Berlin, a guest of Adolf Hitler, he made a mistake that had a devastating effect on arabs. You see, Husseini oiriginally asked Hitler to send a divion of soluiers to the Holy Land to wipe out the Jews there as he was trying to do in Europe. But by this time, Hitlar was having his hands full dealing with the Russians on the east and the Americans and Brits on th west and he refused to send troops that he needed in Europe. So Husseini, seeing the writing on the wall, met with representatives of other arab nations to plan the 1948 war. And when the UN created Israel and Jordan out of land that belonged to no one, The Grand Mufti gave the order. Just prior to this, Husseini advised arabs living in the region to get out. He said the arab armies would attack, eliminate the Jews and then they could all come back and they would live happily ever after. He also suggested that if they had land, sell it to the Jews or stores or whatever and when the war was over, they could retrive what they sold and keep the money they made in selling it because the Jews would be dead.
At the same time, David Ben Gurion, addressing the brand new Israeli Knesset, send out a plea to the arabs not to leave but to stay and help build a new nation. And they could live together in peace. But the arabs didnt listen to Ben Gurion and they left. No one forced them to leave. No one put thm into cattle cars and transported them to refugee camps. They just picked up and left. And the war started and the arabs lost big time and then cried crocodile tears that they had no place to go. But their brother arabs in other countries set up camps for them. They said it was to give them shelter. They r4eally set them up to prevent their being assimilated into the populations of other arab countries. Some of those camps still exist.
Now, Mummin, in 1854, the newspaper, Thge New York Tribune, did a census count of people living in Jerusalem. This was about 100 years before the creation of Israel. Here are the numbers. The city of Jerusalem had an overall population of approximately 60 thousand people. 7 thousand were Muslim, 13 thousand were Christian and 40 thousand were Jews.
Now you make the ridiculous state that "arabs were expelled following conquest by Isaraeli Forces". Israel has never fought a battle for conquest. Each and every battle that involved Israeli troops was fought for defensive purposes because oif raids or attacks by arabs. Only two pieces of land won in battle, will remain in Israeli hands.....East Jerusalem because the Holy City MUST be reunited. And the Golan Heights of Syria because any military planner will tell you....when you hold the high ground, you dont, under any circumstances let go. And its Israel's hold on the Golan Heights that prevents the Syrians from attacking.
Mummin, Israel is a fact of life now and will always be in the future. Its sad that arabs are forced to live under difficult circumstances but that would change the moment the leaders of the arab countries would wake up and make peace with them. Isarael has a lot to share and they have repeatedly said they want to share but as long as there are suicide bombers, and snipers and Hamas and Hezbollah who represent only themselves, nothing will change.
After 58 years, if you peoplecannot bring yourself to lay down your arms and behave like the rest of the world, then you have no one to blame but yourselves.

[Newscaster]

AND PLEASE, DONT BOTHER TO RESPOND. I AM FINISHED WITH THIS DISCUSSION.

[mumin]

Sorry, but I must respond, especially since you have made completely false accusations about the Prophet (pbuh).

Mummin, I have heard your arguments many times over as I have said and they simply dont hold water.
Lets begin.....The British partition was started in an attempt to keep the violence to a minimum if possible. But in the process, the British did their darndest to keep out any Jews who attempted to enter the area. Remember, there was a Jewish presence in the region since 70AD. They had established roots there and maintained ties to the land continuously.
A small presence had existed even under Islamic control, yet no effort was made to make a state. ESPECIALLY when that presence had dwindled to insignificant numbers by the Arab residents of the area.

Arabs living in the area were constantly involved in skirmishes with the Jews. So the idea that they leaved peacefully, side by side, prior to WW2 is baloney.
I never said there weren't disputes prior to WW2.

It all started and gained momentum when the Zionist movement of Europe began. The Ottomans even allowed some Jews to come to Palestine. As for those skirmishes, could you please tell me of any since the conquest of Jerusalem by the Muslims up until before the Zionist project? I haven't heard of any, but maybe you have.

And I shall not answer your question why there was not a similiar partition in the U.S. because it is so nonsensical as not to rate an answer.
It is just as nonsensical as having a land claim in an area that you haven't been to or have had under your control for 2000 years.

There were more Jews in New York state than in Israel for example, so actually, it is not as nonsensical.

As far as you not accepting the fact of the Diaspora....who cares whether you accept it or not. The world accepts it.
See, the world doesn't end past Europe and North America.

How about your 7th Century Caliphate being just as boguds as you think the Diaspora is. Remember, arabs in the region were primarily nomadic and because of their constant moving around, they did not settle areas long enough to prove ownership.
A very ridiculous claim.

I guess all Arabs were nomads and all those cities that the Arabs created, renewed, restored, conquered, etc. were nothing but the result of nomadic squatting! I guess Baghdad was a shanty town for nomads just so they could soon relocate!

Your continuous insinuation that Arabs are nothing more than nomads is absurd.

And when you say they found Jerusalem to be a waste dump, just backs up my argument that arabs were late comers to that specific region.
That is your 'argument'?

It is obvious and established fact. But, late comers or not, they've been there for 1300 years. The Jewish presence was still there under Islamic rule. If the Arabs had wanted, there would have been no Jewish presence at all.

If the Jews were not there.......then arabs had hundreds of years of freedom to treat the city as they wishes, thus turning it into the dump you speak of.
You are obviously not aware of the history of the city as you claim you are.

The city was found in less than great condition under Byzantine rule. The Arabs renewed the area. I mean, I wouldn't make a beautiful structure, like the Dome of the Rock, in a trash heap, would I? The area was of significance to Islam and thus was restored under Islamic rule.

And let me askyou something about cities. In what is now Saudi Arabia, the city of Medina was at one time a prediminatly Jewish city until Muhammed arrived and using force, tried to get Jews to convert to Islam. When they didt, he killed them. Since that city was once Jewish, shall Jews claim ownership today and kick out the Saudis?
Where do you get your information about Islam? One of those vehemently anti-Islamic Jewish sites, apparently.

The city of Yathrib did have Jewiish tribes, as well as polytheists. Scores had converted to Islam before the Prophet (pbuh) even set foot in the city! Treaties were drawn up with the Jewish tribes (I suppose people are to draw up treaties right before they force people to convert, right?). If it had been any other conqueror, there would have been no treaty, since the Muslims were sizeable enough to take over all surrounding areas. Yet, the Jewish tribes of Yathrib continuously broke treaties then. They attempted the murder of the Prophet (pbuh) time and time again.

They broke the rules that they themselves had formulated and on which they reached an agreement with the Muslims. The last straw came when they aided the invading Makkan polytheists against the Muslims. Warfare ensued between the Muslims and the offending tribes. Their forts were seiged by Muslims for repeated offenses. They received judgment based on their own laws.

Also, if "Muhammed arrived and using force, tried to get Jews to convert to Islam", why did the followers of the Prophet (pbuh) not follow in this supposed legacy? Why were there Jews still in Palestine? Why did Muslims accept the Jews from Spain after the Inquisition? Why are there so many Jews found in Arab countries? You make it seem like that the only type of Jew there is is the Ashkenazi and all the Sephardic Jews were forced to convert.

But still on the issue of a city that was a trash dump......look at what the arabs are doing to GAZA even now.
The Arabs are doing to Gaza? Are you insane?

Gaza is surrounded by Israel and is a prison. There are too many checkpoints. There are too many sanctions. There is too much meddling by Israel. What do you expect the Palestinians to do? THEY don't get billions of dollars in aid. THEY don't have an army to defend themselves and their continuously destroyed infrastructure. THEY don't have their lands seized on a continuous basis (and you CONTINUE to omit the part about Israeli expansion in Gaza).

Regarding the British control of the Holy Land, if you were to do some research into the British Empire, in those days and today as well, the Brits are not the greatest of friends to Jews. Thats why under their control, turmoil erupted as Jews moved in, leaving the wreackage that was Europe.
The British weren't friends with Arabs either, but that wasn't an excuse to use terrorism against the Brits, which Israel took part in before the British left. Turmoil erupted due to increased Jewish migration to the region - and when the British expressed concern over the extreme numbers of Jews moving to Israel, they were responded with terrorism.

When it became obvious that the British has lost control of the situation, they informed the U.N. Once again, I will remind you that the area was called TRans-Jordan, a name used on maps around the world, signifying acceptance of THAT name.The Name Palestine, at the time was similiar then to what we in the United States call an area like "The Deep South". The Deep South is not an official name. Its just a reference to an area. If I said I live in the Deep South, I still have not told you where I live. But I dont think you would understand that.
TranJordan is just what the name implies. It's modern day Joran.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BritishMandatePalestine1920.jpg
This was under British rule. Paletine is a geographical location.

Also, I don't understand how Palestine could be similar to the 'Deep South'. The 'Deep South' implies a region that may or may not be specific. Palestine was specific.

Now you bring up the group known as Zionists. Zionists were a political organization whose work involved establishing a homeland for Jews in or as close to their historical homeland as possible. And they did their work wekk because they proved thru land ownership documents, legal ramifications and testimony that the land known as Trans Jordon belonged to no one. It was just there. It was inhabited by both Jews and Arabs without the benefit of official boundaries, a constitution or charter, a language, army or set of laws.
Why the significance of the historical homeland, especially when the majority in the homeland were not Jews?

Obviously the TransJordan was no one's property after the British defeated the Ottomans. It's like saying that France ceased to exist when the Nazis took over. It's absurd. The people make the country. They still lived there. They were still 90%+ Arabs. They still wanted Arab leadership over the lands.

Trhe UNited Nation based on evidence presented by the Zionists, chose that land as the future home for Jews and created a second new nation, Jodan, that would be for the arabs.
I would be pissed off if someone split my land and gave some of it up to a minority, especially if my family had lived there before.

A lot of the land seized by Zionists from Arabs even before the UN was due to military aggression and terrorism. Your own ex-PM, who I quoted before, said that the early towns with Jewish names were all Arab settlements that were conquered by the Zionists.

But for some arabs that was not good enough for them. The fact that Jordan was ten times larger than the new Israel and has oil deposits whereas Israel does not, didnt matter to them.
It's completely irrelevant if there was oil or not. For example, there was this matter in Canada about sovereignty over the ice caps. There is no oil there or anything else but frozen water for that matter. But, it was of concern to Canada that it confronted the US and Russia over this.

They just could not swallow the idea of living next door to Jews. And thats when the trouble began in earnest.
Yes, after 1300 years of living side by side with Jews, they just couldn't swallow it anymore...right.

It wasn't the fact that Jews were living there. Had it been any other group who would have taken over even a small portion of land, it would have been met with similar resistance. It's a matter of principle. You steal my land and I'm going to let you get away with it? Not a chance.

As far as the personal sentiments of individual member nations of the United Nations, there will always be bad apples in every bunch but whether you like it or not, the action the UN took was legal, it was internationally recognized and permanent.
That's not how it works.

There are many UN resolutions against Israel, for example, which Israel deems illegal. The UN's legality is severely restricted. Not to mention that the bulk (all?) of the countries that voted for the partition were Western nations who had directly or indirectly taken part in the WW2. It was NOT internationally recognized (unless you don't recognize Arabs as being part of the planet). And it won't be permanent.

Mummin, you ask the question....Why was there a need for a Jewish State? Because the Jews had been deprived of a homeland for almost two thousand years. Because they had been kicked around by all sorts of people for almost two thousand years and simply because it was the right thing to do. And iof you cannot accept that....tough.
No, I ask the question why there was a need for a Jewish state in the land of a people who were unwilling to give up their land. The Jews were not 'kicked around by all sorts of people for almost two thousand years'. The Golden Age of Judaism came under Islamic rule. Jews survive to this day thanks to Muslims. If it were up to Medieval Europe, there wouldn't be a Jew alive today. Just how many notable Jews do you know of from Europe before the Enlightenment?

This victim mentality is only applicable to European Jews - and even then, it gets old when it's supposed to be some sort of justification for injustice.

Now, you can quote writers who you believe make a valid case for the arabs but lets face it, Khalidi Walid had a political agenda in writing his book and structured it to fit your arguments. This does not mean it fit the facts. So, I do my own research and come to my own conclusions not based on the words of someone who considers himself my enemy.
He used secondary sources and I even provided those. So, yes they were factual. Obviously he had an agenda as do most people who write on issues about the Middle East, but his facts are undeniable, especially when sourced.

First, those goals were achieved because in the culture of Jewish Life, education comes first. Thats why we have such an abundance of scientists, writers, artists, etc. Now, lets take a look at that Jewish aid that you have so much trouble with. BNaving worked in the US embassy in Tel Aviv, I do have a slightly more than casual acquaintence with the issue. Yes, there is a lot of aid but it is not aid given as an outright gift. The aid comes in the form of loans and loan guarantees and unlike almost all countries that owe money to the United States, Israel is the only one that has paid back its loans in full and with interest.

Israel has paid nothing back to the US. All loans were conveniently forgiven by the US to Israel before they were due! I hope you don't get your [unsourced] information from the Jewish Virtual Library, because almost every other source speaks volumes to the contrary.

There are outright gifts to the Israelis but they come from private organization and that money is not government funding. Thats why the Israelis have contributed more than their share to an ungrateful world. They have contributed medicines, technology, weaponry, art, music, song, humor, they hbave a flourishing agricultural industry. They have both heavy and light industry and there are one of the most powerful military forces in the world today.
Ungrateful world? What HAS Israel contributed specifically? All I can recall is warfare and ensuing deaths.

I find it funny that you had to list "art, music, song, humor", when they're all just art. Israel has received fundings for all those from foreign investments. Where did the money come from for the Israeli army? If the Palestinians are supposedly getting similar aid, where is their tank? Where are their missiles? Where are their choppers and nukes (yes, Israel has nukes, no matter how much you deny they exist)?

And no, they don't have the most powerful military force. That's trying too hard to bite the hand that feeds you. The US and China are more powerful, I'd guess.

As for arab contributions to the world.....algebra and oil. And oil may be on its last legs. Kuwait's major oil field is running dry. The Kuwaitis announced that just two weeks ago. And lets remember, when you talk about arab oil, the arabs didnt even realize that there was oil in the first place until American engineers came in to show you how to find it. That group today is called Aramco. I'm sure you've heard of it.
Your blatant racism is completely unacceptable. Stop being a complete bigot.

Arabs have contributed much to the world. Without the Arabs, Europe would not have reached the Enlightenment. Without the Arabs, the Renaissance may have been nothing but a pipe dream. Without the Arabs, no one would know of Socrates, Plato, or Aristotle. The Arabs and Muslims at large have contributed to all areas of science, technology, and the arts. The Islamic empire was the leader in all areas before backwards Europe got a taste and colonialism erupted.

Americans were seen as allies before Israel by Muslims, since they were the only non-Imperial force from the West. And so what if they showed the Arabs if they were standing on oil? The Americans at that time were superior in terms of technology. After all, they came up with the nuk. Living in isolation from the rest of the world and having access to resources of a relatively new world did help America reach its pinnacle. I have heard of Aramco and I hardly see the relevance.

Squatting on arab lands? Squatting? A person squats somewhere when he does expect to stay for very long. Thats squatting. Jews lay down roots.
I'm sure the dispersed Diaspora that I apparently do not accept has laid down roots around the world. With that logic, they can lay claim to practically anywhere.

There is an American author, Mark Twain, why visited Jerusalem and the Holy Land at the end of the 19th century. He wrote that he was greatly disappointed in what he found or should I say did not find. He found a vast wasteland with no people. Rem3ember, this is around the area now called East Jerudsalem. So, where were the people.
I haven't heard of this and I don't see Mark Twain as a reliable source on this matter.

He visited the area at the end of the 19th century, when the Ottomans were crumbling and the caliphate was near its end. He found no people? That's surprising. Considering that the historical Al-Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock, both of which were built centuries earlier, still stood there. I don't call that a wasteland. It is true that the Ottoman Turks were ineffective leaders, ushering in secularization and Western ideals. Jerusalem still was far from a wasteland.

And even so, that is no justification for conquest.

Jews who had a contuned presence in the region for more than three thousand years, they were there. They lived in homes, real homes.
And the lowly Arabs, the inferior race, lived in fake homes? Give me a break. The Jews LIVED because they were allowed to. If the Arabs had been like any European force, especially in the Middle Ages, there wouldn't have been any Jewish presence in Palestine, let alone Jerusalem.

They operated farms, ran small businesses and had documents showing bills of sale for the property or other documents proving longevity.
Nothing that was unique to the Jews.

It was at the beginning of the twentieth century that the movement toward the middle east began by the Jews. Now, why would they pick such a hard scrapple place to live? Little water, lots of sand not suitable for angriculture. Why would they pick that? Just to annoy the arabs? No. They returned to what is now Israel because that land is the Jewish Homeland and always has been since long before the Romans moved into the area. The Torah explains this very well. The New Testament says so and even the Koran states that this was the home of Jews.
So what? They also speak of indigenous residents that were driven out by the Jews - and DNA evidence has shown that many of those were the ancestors of Lebanese Arabs. They also speak of the Roman and Persian Empires. That doesn't give the Italians or the Iranians (Zoroastrians) the right to conquer all the land they once held. They also speak of archaic and long-gone empires. It does not justify anything.

Oh yes, you claim the return of the Sinai was due to Anwar Sadat. Yes, in part it was. Sadat sat down with the Israelis after the 1973 war and hashed out an agreement that stands to this day that he would recognize the sovereignty of Israel and its borders in exchange for the return of the Sinai. Now, in view of the history of relations between Israel and Egypt, Tel Aviv could have told Sadat to take a flying leap. They won the war in battle, a war that Egypt started and thats the end of the story. But no, the Israelis did not want to continue a state of beligerance and agreed. It was not all Sadats doing. But I admit, he was smart enough to see an opportunity to benefit by it and he took it. The only other Arab country that comes close is Jordan.
The Sinai capture was thanks to the UK and France. They had their own interests and Israel had its own.

Israel had no altruistic aims in giving up the Sinai. Make yourself familiar with the Suez crisis. The US and the USSR had much to do with this. If it were up to the Israelis, they'd have marched on to Cairo.

I really should explain to you why I mentioned Haj Amin Ali Husseini. First, you immediately knew about the man because you know as well as I do the disasterous role he played. As Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, he was the one calling the shots for the arabs. And after spending WW2 in Berlin, a guest of Adolf Hitler, he made a mistake that had a devastating effect on arabs. You see, Husseini oiriginally asked Hitler to send a divion of soluiers to the Holy Land to wipe out the Jews there as he was trying to do in Europe. But by this time, Hitlar was having his hands full dealing with the Russians on the east and the Americans and Brits on th west and he refused to send troops that he needed in Europe. So Husseini, seeing the writing on the wall, met with representatives of other arab nations to plan the 1948 war. And when the UN created Israel and Jordan out of land that belonged to no one, The Grand Mufti gave the order. Just prior to this, Husseini advised arabs living in the region to get out. He said the arab armies would attack, eliminate the Jews and then they could all come back and they would live happily ever after. He also suggested that if they had land, sell it to the Jews or stores or whatever and when the war was over, they could retrive what they sold and keep the money they made in selling it because the Jews would be dead.
The Arabs at the time had directly been affected by the Zionist Jews. He saw them as another invading force. As I mentioned, it wouldn't have mattered if it were Jews or the Druze or whichever other nation that would have tried to establish itself by land grabs. He sought Hitler simply because Hitler had his hatred for the Jews and the means for the removal from the land. It's similar to countries cooperating with each other to meet their own goals, which were similar but to different extents. The Mufti wanted the removal of Jews from his land by any means possible at that point, since the movement of Jews into the land of the Arabs with no control by the Arabs over the process would be frustrating to anyone. Of course, at that point, the details of the Holocaust were not established and the world wasn't aware of its horrors. Putting the Mufti at the same level as Hitler is an injustice. It's similar to the US allying with the Taliban against the Soviets. At that time, there was no one actively opposed to Jews as much as Hitler was. He was insane but he was a potential ally in terms of removing Zionists from Palestine. Of course what the Mufti didn't realize was that soon Hitler would have turned on the Arabs, since Arabs are Semites as well and Hitler was after Aryan domination.

At the same time, David Ben Gurion, addressing the brand new Israeli Knesset, send out a plea to the arabs not to leave but to stay and help build a new nation. And they could live together in peace. But the arabs didnt listen to Ben Gurion and they left. No one forced them to leave.
Could you provide a reference for this? From all that I have seen and read, Arabs were forced to flee following military operations, followed by their homes and tree groves being stolen.

And the war started and the arabs lost big time and then cried crocodile tears that they had no place to go.
Crocodile tears? Those seem to be Israel's specialty, with a side order of victimhood.

They did have no place to go.

But their brother arabs in other countries set up camps for them. They said it was to give them shelter. They r4eally set them up to prevent their being assimilated into the populations of other arab countries. Some of those camps still exist.
Yes, as I stated earlier, there was rampant nationalism. Otherwise, there wouldn't be so many Arab countries but just one. But, Arab culture isn't the same all across the board. The Arabs would not have wanted to assimilate the onslaught of refugees because who does? And even then, it is no justification for Israel. Also, the Arabs did try to regain the lands time and time again and continue to do so. Assimilation may be easy for Jews, since they had been dispersed for centuries. Arabs haven't.

Now, Mummin, in 1854, the newspaper, Thge New York Tribune, did a census count of people living in Jerusalem. This was about 100 years before the creation of Israel. Here are the numbers. The city of Jerusalem had an overall population of approximately 60 thousand people. 7 thousand were Muslim, 13 thousand were Christian and 40 thousand were Jews.
I accept that. But that still doesn't give them the right to claim statehood, since Palestine at large was largely Arab, with a 3-7% Jewish minority. It's like saying African Americans can claim statehood in Illinois simply because of their presence in Chicago.

Now you make the ridiculous state that "arabs were expelled following conquest by Isaraeli Forces". Israel has never fought a battle for conquest.
And they were, unless you prove otherwise.

Each and every battle that involved Israeli troops was fought for defensive purposes because oif raids or attacks by arabs.
I would believe that if I actually accepted the validity of Israel. As far as I see, the Arabs were defending their land and continue to do so.

Only two pieces of land won in battle, will remain in Israeli hands.....East Jerusalem because the Holy City MUST be reunited.
I don't think scripture holds much legality in international law.

And the Golan Heights of Syria because any military planner will tell you....when you hold the high ground, you dont, under any circumstances let go. And its Israel's hold on the Golan Heights that prevents the Syrians from attacking.
Illegal.

Mummin, Israel is a fact of life now and will always be in the future. Its sad that arabs are forced to live under difficult circumstances but that would change the moment the leaders of the arab countries would wake up and make peace with them. Isarael has a lot to share and they have repeatedly said they want to share but as long as there are suicide bombers, and snipers and Hamas and Hezbollah who represent only themselves, nothing will change
No, Israel may be now, but I doubt its future.

I do agree about the brutal Arab regimes, but there is a double standard. If an Arab country is democratic and democracy doesn't work in the favor of Israel or the US, then what gives you the right to freeze its assets as you have done with Hamas? People voted for Hamas. Same thing goes for secular countries like Syria, which enjoys one of the best if not the best levels of freedom of religion. The monarchies are self-serving and I pray for the day when all kings and their families are removed from power and a different form of government replaces the lot of them.

After 58 years, if you peoplecannot bring yourself to lay down your arms and behave like the rest of the world, then you have no one to blame but yourselves.
It's not the rest of the world that agrees with Israel. If Israel complied with half of the UN resolutions that it is subject to, I think you would definitely see a decrease in hostilities. Less than 16 years ago, Zionism was seen as a racist philosophy, as I've said. Why did Israel not comply then? Of course, when this motion was passed in the mid-70s, Israel shrugged it off. The UN cannot be used to justify Israel, since it goes ignored when it disagrees with Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel

And of course, the UN has been accused of being anti-Israel and even anti-Semitism. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The UNSC condemned Israel 43 out of 88 times and the UNGA condemned Israel 321 out of 429 times. Either you accept those condemnations and accordingly, or you cannot use the UN as a legal backing for Israel.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But it seems mumin sure is wound up.
2. Newscaster really got him going.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Buck Laser]

Why haven't you discussed how less than 1.5% of the Global Population(world Jewry) controls the the remaining 98.5% .....

Why haven't you been bold enough to read the Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion ....then Proclaim it to be Anti-semitic.....All Of The While noticing the similarities between what has transpired since the passing of Herzl and the Creation of Israel and How Israeli Special Interest Now Controls The U.S. Political System From With-in?

Why Don't You Mention The Nazi Steamships Flying Both The Nazi Swastika and the Star of David Dropping of Settlers in Palestine from the mid 20's to 1941.....

Nope, I don't think you are Capable of Talking about both sides of the Issue.....

Compliments of Friedrich Nietzsche who inspired all of Europe .....with his "God Is Dead" Philosophy .......

Majik

Hoo, boy!! So much misinformation, so little time!! Incidentally, one can read all this same shit on just about any conspiracy-oriented newsgroup on the web. However, this "Majik" chap has managed to bring up some new crap that the less historically literate members of DF may bite on. For example, "Nazi steamships flying...the nazi swastika...dropping settlers in Palestine from the mid '20s...":P Most unlikely that there'd have been any Nazi-flagged ships until after Hitler became Chancellor of Germany in 1934.

Anyone who b