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Muser
08-29-2008, 03:00 PM
I happened across this today and was fascinated by it; certainly worthy of a few minutes of mental masturbation, if nothing else.

The Loophole (http://linguafranca.mirror.theinfo.org/9802/hyp.html)

Aristotle, the second greatest logician of all time, was also an expert on political constitutions. Can the same be said for the greatest logician of all time, Kurt Gödel? Gödel had a genius for detecting the paradoxical in unexpected places. He looked into the axioms of mathematics and saw incompleteness. He looked into the equations of general relativity and saw circular time. And he looked into the Constitution of the United States and saw a logical loophole that could allow a dictator to take power. Or did he?

The scene was New Jersey, 1947. Sixteen years earlier, Gödel had stunned the intellectual world by proving that no logical system could ever capture all the truths of mathematicsa result that, along with Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, was to become iconic of the limitations of human knowledge. He had left Austria for the United States when the Nazis took over, and for nearly a decade he had been a member of the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton. It was time, he decided, to become an American citizen.

Earlier that year, he had found a curious new solution to Einstein's cosmological equations, one that made space-time rotate rather than expand. In the "Gödel universe," it would be possible to journey in a big circle and arrive back at your starting point before you left.

But Gödel's research into time travel was interrupted by his citizenship hearing, scheduled for December 5 in Trenton. His character witnesses were to be his close friends Albert Einstein and game theory co-inventor Oskar Morgenstern, who also served that day as his chauffeur. Being a fastidious man, Gödel decided to make a close study of American political institutions in preparation for the exam. On the eve of the hearing, he called Morgenstern in a state of agitation. He had found a logical inconsistency in the Constitution, he said. Morgenstern was amused by this, but he realized that Gödel was deadly serious. He urged him not to mention the matter to the judge, fearing it would jeopardize his citizenship bid.

On the short drive to Trenton the next day, Einstein and Morgenstern tried to distract Gödel with jokes. When they arrived at the court, the judge, Philip Forman, was impressed by Gödel's eminent witnesses, and he invited the trio into his chambers. After some small talk, he said to Gödel, "Up to now you have held German citizenship." No, Gödel corrected, Austrian. "Anyhow," continued the judge, "it was under an evil dictatorship...but fortunately that's not possible in America."

"On the contrary, I know how that can happen," cried Gödel, and he began to explain how the Constitution might permit such a thing to occur. The judge, however, indicated that he was not interested, and Einstein and Morgenstern succeeded in quieting the examinee down. A few months later, Gödel took his oath of citizenship. Writing to his mother back in Vienna, he commented that "one went home with the impression that American citizenship, in contrast to most others, really meant something."

For those of us who have never read the Constitution all the way through, this anecdote cannot but be disturbing. What was the logical flaw that Gödel believed he had descried in the document? Could the Founding Fathers have inadvertently left open a legal door to fascism? And what if Pat Buchanan found out about it?

It should be remembered that while Gödel was supremely logical, he was also supremely paranoid and not a little naive. There was something sweetly Pnin-like about him. He believed in ghosts; had a morbid dread of refrigerator gases; pronounced the pink flamingo his hoydenish wife placed outside his window furchtbar herzlich ("awfully charming"); and was convinced, based on nose measurements he had made on a newspaper photo, that General MacArthur had been replaced by an imposter. His paranoia, though, was decidedly tragic. "Certain forces" were at work in the world "directly submerging the good," he believed.

So was the contradiction in the Constitution, or was it in Gödel's head? I decided to ask Laurence Tribe. Besides teaching at Harvard Law School, Tribe also had a knack for algebraic topology in his undergraduate days.

"It's unlikely that Gödel could have found anything of the form P and not-P in the Constitution," Tribe told me. "What might have bothered him, though, was Article V, which places almost no substantive constraints on how the Constitution can be amended. He could have interpreted this to mean that, as long as an amendment is proposed and approved in the prescribed way, it automatically becomes part of the Constitution, even if it would eliminate the essential features of a republican form of government and obliterate virtually all the protections of human rights.

"But if I'm correct," Tribe continued, "Gödel's concern rested on something of a non sequitur. The idea that any constitution could so firmly entrench a set of basic rights and principles as to make them invulnerable to orderly repudiation is unrealistic. Nations like India that purport to make certain basic principles unamendable have in no sense experienced greater fidelity to human rights or democracy than has the United States."

A couple of other legal scholars I spoke to concurred with Tribe that Article V must have been what was vexing Gödel. But the mystery of whether he found something genuinely kinky in the Constitution remains a bit like the mystery of whether Fermat really had a "marvelous proof" of his last theorem. How I wish I had been the judge at that citizenship hearing. Imagine being presented with the opportunity to lean forward, look this overwrought genius in the eye, and say, "Surely you must be joking, Mr. Gödel."

william the wierd
08-29-2008, 06:41 PM
The 13th amendment does not exempt the legislative and judicial branches while declaration of rebellion is an executive function.

Osborn F. Enready
08-29-2008, 07:27 PM
You may find these interesting:
http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2005/02/jerry_dworkin_p.html

the scholarly article makes the following argument: the 10th amendment to the united states constitution (and later ones as well) limit the powers of Article V. this would (by paradox of self-amendment) prove the 18th amendment (end of prohibition) unconstitutional. but numerous court decisions upheld the 18. for our case only Leser v. Garnet, 258 U.S. 130 (1922) is interesting, because it features the following decision:

"[T]he function of a State legislature in ratifying a proposed amendment to the Federal Constitution, like the function of Congress in proposing the amendment, is a federal function derived from the Federal Constitution; and it transcends any limitations sought to be imposed by the people of a State."

By giving congress the right to amend the constitution as they see fit, as well as giving congress the right to allow state legislature ratification, as well as denying it to the people, effectively 2000 or so people (federal and state legislators) rule the land. oligarchy. but more important Leser v. Garnet's wording of "transcends any limitations" gives implicit power to strip the people of every constitutional right.

In this context the article mentions:

"Gödel studied the U.S. constitution in preparation for his oral citizenship examination in 1948. He noticed that the AC had procedural limitations but no substantive limitations; hence it could be used to overturn the democratic institutions described in the rest of the constitution."

Also note, this claims to be the actual issue at hand:

http://blog.plover.com/law/Godel-dictatorship-2.html

Wed, 12 Sep 2007
The loophole in the U.S. Constitution: the answer
In the previous article, I wondered what "inconsistency in the Constitution" Gödel might have found that would permit the United States to become a dictatorship.

Several people wrote in to tell me that Peter Suber addresses this in his book The Paradox of Self-Amendment, which is available online. (Suber also provides a provenance for the Gödel story.)

Apparently, the "inconsistency" noted by Gödel is simply that the Constitution provides for its own amendment. Suber says: "He noticed that the AC had procedural limitations but no substantive limitations; hence it could be used to overturn the democratic institutions described in the rest of the constitution." I am gravely disappointed. I had been hoping for something brilliant and subtle that only Gödel would have noticed.

Thanks to Greg Padgett, Julian Orbach, Simon Cozens, and Neil Kandalgaonkar for bringing this to my attention.

M. Padgett also pointed out that the scheme I proposed for amending the constitution, which I claimed would require only the cooperation of a majority of both houses of Congress, 218 + 51 = 269 people in all, would actually require a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate. He says that to be safe you would want all 100 senators to conspire; I'm not sure why 60 would not be sufficient. (Under current Senate rules, 60 senators can halt a filibuster.) This would bring the total required to 218 + 60 = 278 conspirators.

He also pointed out that the complaisance of five Supreme Court justices would give the President essentially dictatorial powers, since any legal challenge to Presidential authority could be rejected by the court. But this train of thought seems to have led both of us down the same path, ending in the idea that this situation is not really within the scope of the original question.

As a final note, I will point out what I think is a much more serious loophole in the Constitution: if the Vice President is impeached and tried by the Senate, then, as President of the Senate, he presides over his own trial. Article I, section 3 contains an exception for the trial of the President, where the Chief Justice presides instead. But the framers inexplicably forgot to extend this exception to the trial of the Vice President.

william the wierd
08-29-2008, 08:11 PM
Os, I would find that argument more convincing if it had general acceptance. The argument I quote about the 13th amendment was made by many legislators in many states during ratification. The most famous citation I have seen in debates about Godot involved a legislator from Oregon. The former official LP site on Myspace has the longest threads I have seen on the subject of the 13th amendment and I cited this argument in the Godot thread in the same forum. But just start a thread about Godot and the 13th amendment on any constitutionalist board and you will be buried in citations supporting this proposition.

Osborn F. Enready
08-29-2008, 09:22 PM
I wasn't providing that to refute your argument William....

I was just providing what else I could find on the topic of Godel.


I have issues with many amendments, and I am well familliar with the arguments of the 13th, the 14th, the 16th amendments. ;)

william the wierd
08-30-2008, 06:29 AM
I wasn't providing that to refute your argument William....

I was just providing what else I could find on the topic of Godel.


I have issues with many amendments, and I am well familliar with the arguments of the 13th, the 14th, the 16th amendments. ;)
My apologies. One of my pet peeves was triggered: that even really bright people such as Godel understand as opposed to knowing the assumptions of the common law having been reared under the Napoleonic code. The assumption of guilt, forced but generally not tortured self-incrimination and other aspects of the code are so far out from the postulates of the common law that I doubt that even geniuses really understand the differences. I have really deep problems with justices such as Breyer who use code precedent in reaching decisions on US law since I kind of doubt Breyer has any idea of how to use Godel numbers to prevent importation of statist rules code when doing so. Sorry I jumped so hard.