HOLY CRAP!! PLEASE READ!!

[Pookie]

You people are NOT going to believe this, but here in Henderson County, my property taxes went waaaaaay up from $542 a year in 2006 to $678 in 2007. I raised hell, and announced that I WILL be running for County Commissioner in my district in 2009. I went to all the meetings, raised hell because my property taxes are going up and there is NOTHING to show for it!! My road needs repaving, we need more cops, the dang VOLUNTEER fire department here needs a portable defibrillator, a new ambulance, a new tanker (especiailly with the drought here, go figure), the schools need computers, the roads need fixing, and the reason why (I think) the taxes went way up was because the county commissioners voted for the biggest raise for themselves in history (an ungodly 88% raise).....!!!
They already make $41,551 a year....not including what they get at their jobs and businesses.
I exposed the raise issue, and the people here raised hell! The raise was rescinded this year, I got 2 traffic lights up and running, I also have a petition going to where County Commissioners do not get ANY pay. So far I have 198,467 people on my side. If we are to serve our community on a local level where everything happens OUTSIDE of business hours, this should be considered as volunteer work, as it does not interfere with your job. I do not feel that peoples' property taxes should be raised without anything to justify that. Taxes go up, services and improvements should be happening.
Hot damn! I'm up to my ass in emails....peoples' taxes have gone down, like mine, and people are yelling at me to run next year.
By God, I think I'll do it.
But we won! Property taxes went down! Woooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!
Maybe being annoying has its merits.
Ecstatic purrs,
Pookie

[PatrickHenry]

$136 a year increase is waaay up?

Pookie, you need to get out more...

[Alonzo]

So you complain about the lack of government funded programs, or at least repairs, and your solution is to remove the tax money needed to fund those changes?

[Buck Laser]

Pookie, I'm sorry, but in IL, my taxes on a 150K house were about $2400. In Austin, they're about $1700 for a house of similar value. In neither case did I consider the taxes excessive. Bot TX and IL have provisions for senior citizens. Paying taxes is an annoyance, and it can be a burden for people who live in areas where property values rise suddenly, leaving them no option but to move out.

As most of you probably realize, I am one of those people who doesn't get outraged about either the idea or the fact of paying taxes. I like living in a community that has stuff like water, sewer, streets, fire and police protection, libraries, parks and celebrations. I like it even if I don't get to take advantage of all of them. I like it even if some poor people get to take more advantage of the public amenities than I do.

I realize this makes me one of the "sheeple" in the eyes of some, but I have at least liked every place I've lived, even if there were some bastards living in each town. Pookie, I think you should and probably easily can get a detailed accounting of where your tax dollars go. Take a look at the list, then decide which services you wish you didn't have. That will give you something far more concrete to go on than complaining about the salaries of the country commissioners. By the way, when I ran for county councilman in IL in 1987, the salary was the princely sum of $1800 a year.

[AnnEsthesia]

You only pay $678 in taxes on your property??? *faint*

[Muser]

So you complain about the lack of government funded programs, or at least repairs, and your solution is to remove the tax money needed to fund those changes?

No...I believe what she's saying is that the property taxes went up in 2007, and since that time there've been no government-funded services to show for that increase - except raises.

I'm with everyone else on this one, though - $136/year is a paltry $11/mo; I understand it's all relative to one's income, but I get the impression Mr. and Mrs. Pookie are in the middle class range, and can probably manage it. Anyway, I think her quarrel is less about the amount and more about the lack of services resulting from the increase.

Similar to Anne, I had to reread what Pookie wrote twice to make sure I was reading it right - $678/year?!?!? I'd be ecstatic if my prop taxes were that low! And speaking of...

Hey Buck - you're making it seem as if Austin's prop taxes are less than (North) Dallas'? Shirley that can't be right - unless you're referring to inner city? By comparison, the house we're buying is in a small town 30 minutes north of Dallas with excellent schools; yearly taxes on a $229k home are ~$3,100 - and that's paying school and county tax only (no city tax). In fact, that figure is representative of ANYwhere north of Dallas (and in many areas it's far higher).

Anyway, I applaud your efforts, Pookie; you're getting out there, taking action, and making changes in your community. You've got mad mover-n-shaker skillz, girlfriend. I think you should make a run for the office. Just remember to always use your powers for good and not evil. :)

[Osborn F. Enready]

Well said Muser, I think you are correct about Pookies intent as that is how I interpreted it, and I fully agree with POOKIE TAKING ACTION!!! GO GIRL!

[ViolaLee]

That's the lowest property tax I've ever heard of. Mine's over $2000.

And just so ya know, I'm pretty sure everyone's property tax is going down, with the housing crisis and all. If anyone's didn't go down yet, time to contact the assessor's office.

[tecoyah]

I for one ....am proud of you Pookie, you are doing what everyone in this country could, and should do. Speak Up, Act Up, or Shut Up.

You have noted issue in your community and are actively searching for solutions...Imagine what would happen if this happened on a larger scale, or, God Forbid...in Washington.

[jafar00]

You only pay $678 in taxes on your property??? *faint*

You pay any taxes on your property? *faints too* :D

[AnnEsthesia]

You pay any taxes on your property? *faints too* :D

Yea, sadly about $3600 a year.

[potter]

You only pay $678 in taxes on your property??? *faint*


That was my first reaction too. :lmao:

Taxes on my modest little house run $1400 a year, up $300 a year from 2002.

Hell...my automobile property taxes are over $500 and thats with one 10 year old truck.

[potter]

That's the lowest property tax I've ever heard of. Mine's over $2000.

And just so ya know, I'm pretty sure everyone's property tax is going down, with the housing crisis and all. If anyone's didn't go down yet, time to contact the assessor's office.


Nope, they're talking about raising the mill levy this year and drastically cutting city services. At the same time however they are proposing a 53 million dollar riverfront development.... :shame:

Keep in mind that for this town, thats a lotta dough.

[Truth_and_Power]

I'm paying around 3000 a year. But you go, pookie. The concept of community service has been completely lost and I think you are bringing it back. Especially in a small community like yours, there is no need for such big salaries. Enough to cover gas, dinners on the run, and maybe a new suit or two should be plenty. Only what's required to get the job done.

I really do think you should run for office. CAT POWER!!

[Wndrtch]

So you complain about the lack of government funded programs, or at least repairs, and your solution is to remove the tax money needed to fund those changes?

No, she recinded an unneccessary pay raise from a hacks, sucking off the state nipple.

GOOD FOR YOU, POOKIE! GO GET'EM GIRL!!

:clapper::love::worship:

[Alonzo]

But wouldn't it have made more sense to fight to have those things done, rather than fight to remove the necessary funding needed to do those things?

[Osborn F. Enready]

It would make more sense to CONSULT THOSE PEOPLE WHO VALUE THE SERVICE, TO RAISE MONEY PRIVATELY TO GET THE SERVICE THEY WANT, instead of trying to use GOVERNMENT FORCE against innocent people to pay for their pet projects.....

[AnnEsthesia]

Like schools? Why should anyone without kids pay for them? Why not place that burden on the parents? Or police? Only charge those people who have to call them or who live in less desirable neighborhoods and who do not have security systems? Or make the people who actually ride public transportation pay for the whole thing?

[Osborn F. Enready]

Ann said:
Like schools? Why should anyone without kids pay for them?

I don't see why not.... Ask Buck if he would pay for schools if there wasn't a law telling him to....

Ann said:
Why not place that burden on the parents?

I agree.

Ann said:
Or police?

I suggest you look up the history of "police forces" in the world.

Ann said:
Only charge those people who have to call them or who live in less desirable neighborhoods and who do not have security systems?

You tell me Ann....should you have to pay for a Chinese kids right to police? Why draw the line at your altruism there?

Ann said:
Or make the people who actually ride public transportation pay for the whole thing?

Gosh, you mean they should have to pay for the service they want?

[AnnEsthesia]

I don't see why not.... Ask Buck if he would pay for schools if there wasn't a law telling him to....



I agree.



I suggest you look up the history of "police forces" in the world.



You tell me Ann....should you have to pay for a Chinese kids right to police? Why draw the line at your altruism there?



Gosh, you mean they should have to pay for the service they want?

Sad that you would readily agree to what I posted. This is why libertarians will never be voted in. You would place the burden of public school systems on the shoulders of the parents, who often are the most tight financially. That is sad.

[Truth_and_Power]

Like schools? Why should anyone without kids pay for them? Why not place that burden on the parents? Or police? Only charge those people who have to call them or who live in less desirable neighborhoods and who do not have security systems? Or make the people who actually ride public transportation pay for the whole thing?

Sure, lets charge the dumbasses who have to call the police three times a week b/c of their baby daddy or noise complaint. 95% of us manage to get by without constantly using the cops, and I really doubt that most of hte people who don't are innocent in their overuse.

[AnnEsthesia]

Sure, lets charge the dumbasses who have to call the police three times a week b/c of their baby daddy or noise complaint. 95% of us manage to get by without constantly using the cops, and I really doubt that most of hte people who don't are innocent in their overuse.

So if someone breaks into my house and beats me up... how much will that cost me to get the police to come and remove him? $500? $5000? How much?

[Truth_and_Power]

So if someone breaks into my house and beats me up... how much will that cost me to get the police to come and remove him? $500? $5000? How much?


Probably 500, about the same as your car payment. Worth it to you?

Keep in mind you're already paying 1000 for the same service through taxes.

[Alonzo]

So if someone breaks into my house and beats me up... how much will that cost me to get the police to come and remove him? $500? $5000? How much?

Won't be long before:

"I thought I heard something last night, but I couldn't afford to call the cops. I woke up this morning and found that my 8 year old daughter was kidnapped!"

And you know this is going to happen a lot:

"I saw a guy across the street get carjacked, but I didn't want to pay for the cops to come."

[AnnEsthesia]

Won't be long before:

"I thought I heard something last night, but I couldn't afford to call the cops. I woke up this morning and found that my 8 year old daughter was kidnapped!"

And you know this is going to happen a lot:

"I saw a guy across the street get carjacked, but I didn't want to pay for the cops to come."

And in those cases, who would get charged? Not only are you endangering yourself if you stop to help someone, but now you will be charged for doing the right thing?

[Truth_and_Power]

And in those cases, who would get charged? Not only are you endangering yourself if you stop to help someone, but now you will be charged for doing the right thing?

Perhaps if there is a conviction attached the convicted can be charged for the call. And I would say perhaps the victim is the one that should be charged for the service as opposed to the one that calls.

I have heard previously that a small % of people use a very large % of the cirminal justice resources. However, upon googling to try to find this information, I am coming up blank. Anyone else know about this and where to find data to back it up?

[AnnEsthesia]

So you are stabbed walking down the street... not only are you charged for the hospital and the ambulance, but now you are charged for the police call... are you also charged per cop if they have to search for the person? Do you get an added charge if they have to bring out search dogs or helicopters?

[Alonzo]

Perhaps if there is a conviction attached the convicted can be charged for the call.

So if someone mugs me, but the charges are dismissed or they're found guilty, I'm forced to pay?

"Not Guilty" isn't the same as "proven innocent".

And I would say perhaps the victim is the one that should be charged for the service as opposed to the one that calls.

So if someone calls the cops I have no choice but to pay them for services I never requested? Talk about theft...

[Truth_and_Power]

So if someone mugs me, but the charges are dismissed or they're found guilty, I'm forced to pay?

"Not Guilty" isn't the same as "proven innocent".



So if someone calls the cops I have no choice but to pay them for services I never requested? Talk about theft...


As it stands now, if I am walking down the street, not robbed, not raped, and don't require police or ambulance.. I am charged for police, ambulance, etc, etc, etc.

[Alonzo]

As it stands now, if I am walking down the street, not robbed, not raped, and don't require police or ambulance.. I am charged for police, ambulance, etc, etc, etc.

But if someone else calls the cops thinking you were in trouble, you're not charged for that even if they were wrong. But you said you should be.

[potter]

I can see where having parents pay for their own children's schooling could work. Same with fire deparments - insurance coverage could cover that fee.

With private corporate police though....I think what you would end up with is rampant lawlessness. If you had to pay every time you wanted protection people just wouldn't call the cops. They'd get guns and take it into their own hands....not necessarily a bad thing, but could be a lot of "victims" jailed for misuse of a firearm. The very wealthy of course could afford their own security. And what of the police force? If it is a pay as you go and owned by a private corporation it would have to answer only to it's stockholders. Who would hold the police to upholding the law...or would they make their own laws. Would there be such a thing as a traffic cop? Would our roads become a free for all? Would some people be able to make the law what they wanted it to be because they could afford police and everyone else have to do what they want?

Then, what about prisons, they would all be private and I can just see the prison lobby spending millions to have new laws put on the books in order to increase "business"...people disappearing forever into a corporate prison jungle. And who pays for the prisons? Would we make them into self supporting slave factories where prisoners had to earn their keep? How would you make them do it? Whips? And how would private industry view the competition with "free" labor?

I think law enforcement and roads will always need to be socialized or we'd lose our freedoms pretty darn fast.

[Truth_and_Power]

But if someone else calls the cops thinking you were in trouble, you're not charged for that even if they were wrong. But you said you should be.

Maybe we'd spread the cost of good samaritan calling as overhead.

[AnnEsthesia]

Really? You think that it would work to have all parents pay for their children's schooling? Our school system budget is $44,500,000 (rounded to the nearst half million). There are 3,400 (rounded to the nearest hundred) students in the district... most families have more than 1. So, each student would be required to pay over $13,000 per year in order to go to school. I don't know about you, but I cannot afford that, let alone the over $26,000 I would need to pay in order for both of my children to attend school.

[PatrickHenry]

Really? You think that it would work to have all parents pay for their children's schooling? Our school system budget is $44,500,000 (rounded to the nearst half million). There are 3,400 (rounded to the nearest hundred) students in the district... most families have more than 1. So, each student would be required to pay over $13,000 per year in order to go to school. I don't know about you, but I cannot afford that, let alone the over $26,000 I would need to pay in order for both of my children to attend school.
Then who is paying for your children's school?

And what do they get for their "investment?"
...You would place the burden of public school systems on the shoulders of the parents, who often are the most tight financially. That is sad.Who is getting the services of the schools?

Don't get me wrong...I value education.

But I am betting that if you had that $3600 you pay in property taxes each year, and no access to public education, you would still educate your children anyhow.

And when you are old, and not getting any educational services from the "authorities" who have courts, badges and guns...you would be able to use that money to pay your other bills.

Parents should pay for their children's education, just as everyone should pay their own bills.

Why do statists think that everyone should pay for their use of government services?

See, AnnE, here's the libertarian view... That we take responsibility for ourselves.

And what is happening with the child-indoctrination centers we call the "public school system" is largely a failure and a waste of money!

If you were directly choosing and paying for the schools your children go to, you would be MUCH MORE interested in the results.

[potter]

Really? You think that it would work to have all parents pay for their children's schooling? Our school system budget is $44,500,000 (rounded to the nearst half million). There are 3,400 (rounded to the nearest hundred) students in the district... most families have more than 1. So, each student would be required to pay over $13,000 per year in order to go to school. I don't know about you, but I cannot afford that, let alone the over $26,000 I would need to pay in order for both of my children to attend school.


If your school district is like those around me and thousands of others across this country, perhaps it can cut costs by getting rid of the multi million dollar sports complex, stadiums, olympic gymnasiums, olympic swim pools, sports programs, basket weaving classes, the expensive bells and whistles, world class architecture, and the bloated top heavy overpaid administration staff and get down to basic education....like it was when I went to school.

[AnnEsthesia]

You mean besides future tax payers that will pay for them when they are old and gray and continue to support the economy? Wow, glad to know people here value the future generations. I pay taxes too.. but how many people here could afford $26,000 a year for 12 years and THEN pay to send them to college?

[AnnEsthesia]

If your school district is like those around me and thousands of others across this country, perhaps it can cut costs by getting rid of the multi million dollar sports complex, stadiums, olympic gymnasiums, olympic swim pools, sports programs, basket weaving classes, the high bells and whistles and the bloated top heavy overpaid administration staff and get down to basic education....like it was when I went to school.

We do not have stadiums, nor million dollar sports complexes or any of that stuff. We are, however, in the process of expanding a few of the schools to make room for more classrooms.

[AnnEsthesia]

Oh, and are all of you like the seniors here who are bitching about paying for the schools? You know, hypocrites who happily sent their kids to publicly funded schools and now refuse to support them now that they no longer need them? And do I need to mention all the senior services and the senior center that I happily support with my taxes, but which I have to wait over 30 years to enjoy myself?

[potter]

AnnEsthesia, don't get so upset girl! We just be chatting here. Sooner or later this discussion is going to have to be had and we're going to have to make choices and sacrafices. Have you seen our republican inspired deficit? It ain't going down any time soon and there will come a time in 10 - 20 years when these social programs are going to have to be eliminated just to pay the interest on the debt....yup...every fucking tax dime will have to go to serving the national debt. It's the republican plan. Thats what those fools in washington whom ya'll keep voting in have got us into.

:love:

[Osborn F. Enready]

Ann said:
Sad that you would readily agree to what I posted. This is why libertarians will never be voted in. You would place the burden of public school systems on the shoulders of the parents, who often are the most tight financially. That is sad.

I didn't say to put the burden on them, it is THEIR burden to bear.

The first necessity of being a RESPONSIBLE parent is to be able to care and provide for the childs needs. Usually, famillies help here if they can and the person deserves it.

As far as OTHER ways to fund it, its not that hard, there are many ways to do it and many could be used. No requirement of force to get this done.

Manufacturers, employers need a skilled workforce, which is why they often donate to schools when asked if its reasonable. State lotteries could be used to fund schooling costs by a set percentage of every ticket going to schools in the area where the tickets were bought. Collection drives, fund raisers (which teach responsibility), all kinds of methods can be used. Parents should also have to pay some amount for their kids education, as it is their burden to bear.

There is also the option of homeschooling, which today, with the internet and proper oversight of its use, is more attainable than ever.

You keep making this out to be a "force only" service, as if force is a requirement, when it isn't.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Ann said:
So if someone breaks into my house and beats me up... how much will that cost me to get the police to come and remove him? $500? $5000? How much?

Thats relative to a whole lot of information Ann.... you are avoiding the issue.

These services can be had without use of force to provide funding.

Alonzo said:
Won't be long before:

"I thought I heard something last night, but I couldn't afford to call the cops. I woke up this morning and found that my 8 year old daughter was kidnapped!"

Strawman, extreme speculation example.

Alonzo said:
And you know this is going to happen a lot:

"I saw a guy across the street get carjacked, but I didn't want to pay for the cops to come."

Again, strawman, extreme speculation.

Any real issues, or just radical examples painted from the dark recesses of your mind?

Ann said:
And in those cases, who would get charged? Not only are you endangering yourself if you stop to help someone, but now you will be charged for doing the right thing?


Using what chain of causation, or logic? Elaborate.

[Pookie]

Wait, wait, wait...I was taking action to have our taxes used WISELY.
I did not like the idea that taxes were raised to pay for their salaries. I did not like the idea that taxes were raised to pave TWO new roads is an exclusive gated community where the houses start at $500,000. I did not like the idea that taxes were raised and the fire department needed stuff, schools needed stuff. I sure as hell do NOT mind my taxes going to the schools -- children are our future! More people are moving here...we need more police and fire protection. When basic services suffer, and schools suffer as the commissioners get fat pay raises and a gated community gets roads, that is in my mind, UNWISE.
Those funds could go to the programs some of you were accusing me of taking away. That is not true. I did not take away a dime. Other programs suffered because the tax increase was spent UNWISELY.

That was my whole argument and point, and when I pointed all this out, people got pissed, the raise did not go through, it was too late not to pave those 2 roads so we couldn't do anything about that, schools got better stuff, and programs that lost funds regained them. And all because of smart money management. Taxes went down.
I realize that compared to many places, my taxes are low. This is a small county.
You can do a lot more on less when you look at the whole picture and understand where every dollar is going. Do we need this? Yes or no? It's that simple.

I hope I have straightened this out.
Purrs,
Pookie

[AnnEsthesia]

I didn't say to put the burden on them, it is THEIR burden to bear.

The first necessity of being a RESPONSIBLE parent is to be able to care and provide for the childs needs. Usually, famillies help here if they can and the person deserves it.

As far as OTHER ways to fund it, its not that hard, there are many ways to do it and many could be used. No requirement of force to get this done.

Manufacturers, employers need a skilled workforce, which is why they often donate to schools when asked if its reasonable. State lotteries could be used to fund schooling costs by a set percentage of every ticket going to schools in the area where the tickets were bought. Collection drives, fund raisers (which teach responsibility), all kinds of methods can be used. Parents should also have to pay some amount for their kids education, as it is their burden to bear.

There is also the option of homeschooling, which today, with the internet and proper oversight of its use, is more attainable than ever.

You keep making this out to be a "force only" service, as if force is a requirement, when it isn't.


Sorry, you are wrong. It is not only the parent's burden to pay for schools. It is society's burden to bear. This is not the wild west. Society needs well educated people to continue the society. If you force parents to pay for schooling, then a large percentage of them will not get what they need out of sheer lack of resources. Then what happens when YOU are old and need assistance from the younger folk? They will laugh at you and tell you to deal with it yourself, since you refused to help them when they needed it. As well they should.

Oh, and yea, as you homeschooling... um.. no. Not every family is able to afford to have one parent stay home and homeschool. You act as if that is just the be all and end all. It hardly is.

[AnnEsthesia]

Thats relative to a whole lot of information Ann.... you are avoiding the issue.

These services can be had without use of force to provide funding.


Really? Where can you get police protection without having a police force? Not all of us can afford personal body guards.


Using what chain of causation, or logic? Elaborate.

Using the chain of logic that if you are expected to pay $500 dollars every time you call 911, no one will call 911 because they will not have the extra money to throw away.

[AnnEsthesia]

Wait, wait, wait...I was taking action to have our taxes used WISELY.
I did not like the idea that taxes were raised to pay for their salaries. I did not like the idea that taxes were raised to pave TWO new roads is an exclusive gated community where the houses start at $500,000. I did not like the idea that taxes were raised and the fire department needed stuff, schools needed stuff. I sure as hell do NOT mind my taxes going to the schools -- children are our future! More people are moving here...we need more police and fire protection. When basic services suffer, and schools suffer as the commissioners get fat pay raises and a gated community gets roads, that is in my mind, UNWISE.
Those funds could go to the programs some of you were accusing me of taking away. That is not true. I did not take away a dime. Other programs suffered because the tax increase was spent UNWISELY.

That was my whole argument and point, and when I pointed all this out, people got pissed, the raise did not go through, it was too late not to pave those 2 roads so we couldn't do anything about that, schools got better stuff, and programs that lost funds regained them. And all because of smart money management. Taxes went down.
I realize that compared to many places, my taxes are low. This is a small county.
You can do a lot more on less when you look at the whole picture and understand where every dollar is going. Do we need this? Yes or no? It's that simple.

I hope I have straightened this out.
Purrs,
Pookie

I am down with that. We need more governmental oversight and to have every program reviewed on a consistent basis to look for where there is bloat and how to streamline and save money. That is only good bisiness sense, which our current government lacks.

[Pookie]

Down with that? I'm sorry, I'm old. Does that mean you agree or disagree with what I did?
I do not want to misunderstand you. I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean by that.
I am thinking you are agreeing with me and saying some things need governmental overseeing to make sure dollars are spent fairly between programs and issues, like ours here, and to make sure one thing or another is NOT favored and given additional funding because someone is a friend who is a friend of someone's brother-in-law?
If that is what you mean, I understand. It seemed funny when I exposed the idiot who got the county bid to fix bridges because his brother was a commissioner....then two out of four bridges this guy built failed and sent two people to their deaths. Other companies had put in bids much lower, but the brother got the contract because strings were pulled.
That commissioner had to resign rather hastily. His brother is still in prison for negligence, breach of contract, involuntary manslaughter, and reckless endangerment.
Purrs,
Pookie

[AnnEsthesia]

Down with that? I'm sorry, I'm old. Does that mean you agree or disagree with what I did?
I do not want to misunderstand you. I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean by that.
I am thinking you are agreeing with me and saying some things need governmental overseeing to make sure dollars are spent fairly between programs and issues, like ours here, and to make sure one thing or another is favored and given additional funding because someone is a friend who is a friend of someone's brother-in-law?
If that is what you mean, I understand. It seemed funny when I exposed the idiot who got the county bid to fix bridges because his brother was a commissioner....then two out of four bridges this guy built failed and sent two people to their deaths. Other companies had put in bids much lower, but the brother got the contract because strings were pulled.
That commissioner had to resign rather hastily. His brother is still in prison for negligence, breach of contract, involuntary manslaughter, and reckless endangerment.
Purrs,
Pookie

1. down with that [/URL][URL="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=down+with+that#"]
(http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=down+with+that#)

Ok with that, its cool, alright


Urban Dictionary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=down+with+that)

I am saying that instead of raising taxes every time, they should have everything reviewed and figure out where the bloat and problems are and fix them. Then, and only then, should they raise taxes if that is not enough.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Ann said:
Sorry, you are wrong.

Wrong, or what I said was illegal?

Ann said:
It is not only the parent's burden to pay for schools. It is society's burden to bear.

I totally agree. The point you seem to miss is that force, or threat of force is not required to do so. You are arguing that I am saying to CUT funding, when I am simply saying funding needs to be made constitutionally compliant.

Ann said:
This is not the wild west.

Its a shame... crime was down. ;)

Ann said:
Society needs well educated people to continue the society.

I fully agree.

Ann said:
If you force parents to pay for schooling, then a large percentage of them will not get what they need out of sheer lack of resources.

Again, you are arguing as if parents have no responsibility here. I am not saying they should bear FULL cost, assuming the community or city will accept the efficiency of the system and donate to it.

Ann said:
Then what happens when YOU are old and need assistance from the younger folk? They will laugh at you and tell you to deal with it yourself, since you refused to help them when they needed it. As well they should.

Excuse me? When and if I have kids, they won't mind sacrificing to assist me when I am older....just like I do everyday for my father.

Ann said:
Oh, and yea, as you homeschooling... um.. no. Not every family is able to afford to have one parent stay home and homeschool. You act as if that is just the be all and end all. It hardly is.

I am saying people need to live within their means, accept personal responsibility and stop trying to use force to get their needs fulfilled. It shows a lack of brain usage, a lack of validity of the law, a lack of respect for rights that citizens hold against government.
The reason public schools are so messed up isn't the teachers as much as the funding system, the lack of accountability for efficiency, etc. This isn't an issue when there is competition out there, and choice through different teaching styles, methods, curriculum, etc.

Ann said:
Really? Where can you get police protection without having a police force? Not all of us can afford personal body guards.

Who said not to have a police force? Police protection and fire protection are part of zoning. Cities and States have a VALID constitutional reason to tax for Fire and Police, but they are also to be held accountable for the efficiency of those services.

I think amost everyone in the country will agree that police are a basic necessity as are fire departments... its basic insurance for property value and personal safety, staples of a sustainable society.

The problem is you are assuming the extreme, and replying to claims I haven't made.

Ann said:
Using the chain of logic that if you are expected to pay $500 dollars every time you call 911, no one will call 911 because they will not have the extra money to throw away.

The dollar amount would be different for every single community Ann, and in cases of crime, the person found guilty would likely be held accountable for that cost.

In medical emergencies, DUH, you are using a service, so you have to pay for service if you don't have private insurance.

Government isn't UNICEF Ann.

Ann said:
I am down with that. We need more governmental oversight and to have every program reviewed on a consistent basis to look for where there is bloat and how to streamline and save money. That is only good bisiness sense, which our current government lacks.

Which is basicly what I have been saying all along....

Constitutional review of the laws, where conflict exists, rectify the problem Constitutionally, increase of public oversight over their tax outlay (constitutional requirement), increased accountability of elected officials.....

[NIOSA]

You people are NOT going to believe this, but here in Henderson County, my property taxes went waaaaaay up from $542 a year in 2006 to $678 in 2007. I raised hell, and announced that I WILL be running for County Commissioner in my district in 2009. I went to all the meetings, raised hell because my property taxes are going up and there is NOTHING to show for it!! My road needs repaving, we need more cops, the dang VOLUNTEER fire department here needs a portable defibrillator, a new ambulance, a new tanker (especiailly with the drought here, go figure), the schools need computers, the roads need fixing, and the reason why (I think) the taxes went way up was because the county commissioners voted for the biggest raise for themselves in history (an ungodly 88% raise).....!!!
They already make $41,551 a year....not including what they get at their jobs and businesses.
I exposed the raise issue, and the people here raised hell! The raise was rescinded this year, I got 2 traffic lights up and running, I also have a petition going to where County Commissioners do not get ANY pay. So far I have 198,467 people on my side. If we are to serve our community on a local level where everything happens OUTSIDE of business hours, this should be considered as volunteer work, as it does not interfere with your job. I do not feel that peoples' property taxes should be raised without anything to justify that. Taxes go up, services and improvements should be happening.
Hot damn! I'm up to my ass in emails....peoples' taxes have gone down, like mine, and people are yelling at me to run next year.
By God, I think I'll do it.
But we won! Property taxes went down! Woooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!
Maybe being annoying has its merits.
Ecstatic purrs,
Pookie


The hell with a local job, run for POTUS!!! :ecstatic:
Congratulations Pookie, I wish there were people like you in gov't, from the top to the bottom!!
Our property taxes in San Antonio are $4,200 on a 2,800 sq ft home. But I have to say that we get pretty good return for those taxes. Course we have a new city manager that is the highest paid city manager in the US (yes, THE highest paid) but she gets stuff done.

[Muser]

You pay any taxes on your property? *faints too* :D

I take it you don't pay prop taxes in Egypt, jafar? How does that work over there?

[Pookie]

The hell with a local job, run for POTUS!!! :ecstatic:
Congratulations Pookie, I wish there were people like you in gov't, from the top to the bottom!!
Our property taxes in San Antonio are $4,200 on a 2,800 sq ft home. But I have to say that we get pretty good return for those taxes. Course we have a new city manager that is the highest paid city manager in the US (yes, THE highest paid) but she gets stuff done.

Thanks so much, NIOSA! LOL! Imagine Pookie the POTUS. Well, maybe in 30 years when I'm 76, but right now I need to try to take care of my own backyard.
Great things come from one small step and one small voice.
Purrs,
Pookie

[Pookie]

Urban Dictionary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=down+with+that)

I am saying that instead of raising taxes every time, they should have everything reviewed and figure out where the bloat and problems are and fix them. Then, and only then, should they raise taxes if that is not enough.


I agree, AnnE. That is what I'm working on. I just don't understand why some people don't get that! That, of course, is the reasonable and fair thing to do.
It's quite simple! Why don't people grasp this concept? I don't get it.
Purrs,
Pookie

[azzig]

i live in an unicoporated "senior" community and thought my taxes were pretty cheap, considering I don't have to pay for any schools in my district (there ARE none - just old farts living here like me). Mine went up $150 the year after Mom died from $600 to $850 - and I still consider myself lucky compared to what some of you folks are paying.:unreal:

[AnnEsthesia]

Wrong, or what I said was illegal?

You are wrong.


I totally agree. The point you seem to miss is that force, or threat of force is not required to do so. You are arguing that I am saying to CUT funding, when I am simply saying funding needs to be made constitutionally compliant.

Actually, it is. If there were no laws against not paying taxes, people wouldn't. I won't call it greed, but that factors in. No one would wish to pay for things they do not use. The seniors here bitch every day about having to pay for schools.... all the while bitching that their programs need more funding.


Again, you are arguing as if parents have no responsibility here. I am not saying they should bear FULL cost, assuming the community or city will accept the efficiency of the system and donate to it.

No, am not claiming they have no responsibility. Did you miss the fact that parents pay taxes too? Often, working parents are among the segments of society with the least amount of disposable income. I don't know about you, but forcing parents to pay $170,000 per child to get a basic education seems a bit much. Sorry, but 'assuming' that the community will donate is just stupid. Then gas prices go up and boom, no funding.


Excuse me? When and if I have kids, they won't mind sacrificing to assist me when I am older....just like I do everyday for my father.

Who said people with kids? If you have no children, where do you think the support funding comes from? Right, other people's kids.


I am saying people need to live within their means, accept personal responsibility and stop trying to use force to get their needs fulfilled. It shows a lack of brain usage, a lack of validity of the law, a lack of respect for rights that citizens hold against government.
The reason public schools are so messed up isn't the teachers as much as the funding system, the lack of accountability for efficiency, etc. This isn't an issue when there is competition out there, and choice through different teaching styles, methods, curriculum, etc.

Really? It is stupid to assume that society should pay for schooling and educating the generations who will grow up and support THEM? Right. Sorry, but that is just ... dumb.


Who said not to have a police force? Police protection and fire protection are part of zoning. Cities and States have a VALID constitutional reason to tax for Fire and Police, but they are also to be held accountable for the efficiency of those services.

I think amost everyone in the country will agree that police are a basic necessity as are fire departments... its basic insurance for property value and personal safety, staples of a sustainable society.

The problem is you are assuming the extreme, and replying to claims I haven't made.

You might try reading up in the thread. You are not alone here.


The dollar amount would be different for every single community Ann, and in cases of crime, the person found guilty would likely be held accountable for that cost.

In medical emergencies, DUH, you are using a service, so you have to pay for service if you don't have private insurance.

Government isn't UNICEF Ann.


No, nor is government a class system where only those who have lots of disposable income can access it. And most people who are committing crimes have no money... so where are you going to get it then? Put them in labor camps and make them indentured servants until their debt is paid off?


Constitutional review of the laws, where conflict exists, rectify the problem Constitutionally, increase of public oversight over their tax outlay (constitutional requirement), increased accountability of elected officials.....

Reviewing how tax dollars are spent is a good thing. Removing public funding for necessary things like schools and police, etc is just stupid.

[azzig]

funding schools with property taxes is an antiquated and unfair system. I wouldn't mind paying for schools if the money is evenly distributed. Like that'll ever happen in America.:sadly:

[NIOSA]

Thanks so much, NIOSA! LOL! Imagine Pookie the POTUS. Well, maybe in 30 years when I'm 76, but right now I need to try to take care of my own backyard.
Great things come from one small step and one small voice.
Purrs,
Pookie

"Pookie for POTUS, she would take care of the cats" :lmao:
Seriously, you have the right idea, you don't just set on your front porch & gripe, you make your gripes known publically. YES!!!!!!! :worship:

[NIOSA]

funding schools with property taxes is an antiquated and unfair system. I wouldn't mind paying for schools if the money is evenly distributed. Like that'll ever happen in America.:sadly:

Well, the problem I have with that is....take for instance, our "upper class neighborhood" here is "The Dominion", a place where many of the Spurs stars live, George Strait, & some other really wealthy folks reside. Their property taxes, in comparison to us regular folks property is less, yet they get the best schools, services, etc. The south side of San Antonio, where there's many red, yellow,& green painted homes (all three colors on the same house) get fewer services in comparison. In that way I believe it should be fairer. I believe the Dominion should pay equally, dollar for dollar, according to what their property is worth, to what I pay in property taxes.
I don't like redistribution of wealth, but I do like "fair taxes", since we have to pay taxes anyway.

[Pookie]

Thanks, Niosa! It's hard for me to sit still and watch my taxes go up for stupid reasons. Seems like most people here just gripe about it and go on, but I'm careful with my money and I want to know what my money is doing if it is in the hands of others. That pay raise and those roads were just uncalled-for! If people who own $500,000 homes can't pave their own roads through their HOA, and the damn commissioners HAVE to be paid for serving their community, there's something very wrong there.

If I win next year, the first thing I'm going to do is turn down any salary. Sure, I'd love to have all that. Who wouldn't? But the point is, do I need it? Yes or no? NO. That will cause some red faces. Now, I can see maybe $40 a month for gas and a couple meals on the run, if they need it. If I have a meeting, I'll pack an extra sandwich and fruit. I drive a gas-sipping Subaru Forester, so it's no skin off my teeth to run across town once or twice a week. Plus, the bus runs until 9pm. The meetings start at 7pm and are usually over by 8:30pm. I've caught the bus for 75 cents to make the meetings sometimes.

When I have attended those open meetings to raise hell, most of the time I ate a sandwich on the bus on the way, when I used the bus. When I drove, I allowed a few minutes to eat before the meeting. These idiots meet at nice restaraunts for dinner before meetings! I have found them there, and I have made a point when I pass their table to say LOUDLY, "Wow, the commissioners are hard at work exercising their table muscles. No wonder you people need a salary."

I embarrass them every chance I get.

I've been noisy for the past five years, since we moved here in 2002. Almost six. In 2004, I got six new bus stops, four new buses, and business owners let people park their cars in their lots and ride the bus. It's called "Park and Ride." It's not original -- many places have a Park and Ride thing going on. Property taxes went up about eight dollars to pay for that, and people love it. They had no problem with an additional eight bucks. That was just for 2004, to pay for the new buses. The business owners who donated their parking lots got a good-sized tax break...9%! The bus situation is steadily expanding, and especially with the hike in gas prices lately, the buses are jam-packed. Next month, they are looking at buying two more buses. I think it will fly, the money is there for it, once that damn pay raise got squashed.

The schools are happy -- they got the computers they need, thanks to people yelling about that. But they got help -- a local Mom & Pop computer store got a federal grant for supplying many computers to the schools. My husband, who also has a computer business on the side, spent a LOT of time over the summer installing their wireless systems in the schools for free. I cannot stress enough how important the schools are, because children are our future.

I've been a thorn in the commissioners' sides for a while, and when I found out I had this much support, it just seems right to earn that support by being a commissioner. Pulling this last stunt off really did it. And if I get in there, I'm sticking to what I started.

I'm also planning to run as an Independent. I changed from Democrat to Independent in 2005. I don't have time to play parties. Stuff needs to get done without the party bullpoo getting in the way. We need to stick to the issues with a simple plan: Do we need it? Yes or no? That's it. Period, end of story.

Sorry I yakked away. Just wanted to give y'all an idea of what I have done and what I plan to do.

If any of you have any ideas, suggestions, constructive criticism, or anything like that, please, please bring it up. I'll listen carefully -- er, READ carefully.

I need all the help I can get.
Thanks, y'all.
Purrs,
Pookie the Wanna-Be Commissioner

[Pookie]

Well, the problem I have with that is....take for instance, our "upper class neighborhood" here is "The Dominion", a place where many of the Spurs stars live, George Strait, & some other really wealthy folks reside. Their property taxes, in comparison to us regular folks property is less, yet they get the best schools, services, etc. The south side of San Antonio, where there's many red, yellow,& green painted homes (all three colors on the same house) get fewer services in comparison. In that way I believe it should be fairer. I believe the Dominion should pay equally, dollar for dollar, according to what their property is worth, to what I pay in property taxes.
I don't like redistribution of wealth, but I do like "fair taxes", since we have to pay taxes anyway.

FAIR TAXES. Amen, Niosa! Thank you. That's my idea, too!
Purrs,
Pookie

[azzig]

Well, the problem I have with that is....take for instance, our "upper class neighborhood" here is "The Dominion", a place where many of the Spurs stars live, George Strait, & some other really wealthy folks reside. Their property taxes, in comparison to us regular folks property is less, yet they get the best schools, services, etc. The south side of San Antonio, where there's many red, yellow,& green painted homes (all three colors on the same house) get fewer services in comparison. In that way I believe it should be fairer. I believe the Dominion should pay equally, dollar for dollar, according to what their property is worth, to what I pay in property taxes.
I don't like redistribution of wealth, but I do like "fair taxes", since we have to pay taxes anyway.

IMHO, 'property' taxes should go to keeping up the infrastructures in each district or neighborhood, NOT to support the schools. And provide 'services' to the neighborhoods.
my point is...our schools are going down the drain, and the foreclosure crisis is only going to make the situation more dire as time goes on. maybe someone can correct me, but I don't think any developed nations have the same system for supporting schools. And I don't even have kids, but the only way 'we' are going to produce the next generation to carry on without a workable system for schools.
well, time to get off my geriatric soapbox, but that's just the way i feel, pookie.
my last remaining kitty is going on 16 or 17, and is also a crabby geriatric like me.:love:

[Pookie]

Azzig, I understand how you feel. However, here in my neck of the woods, property taxes do go to the schools and other places. I believe I explained my stance on this. I operate this way: 1. Children are our future; schools and education is important. 2. Do we need this (whatever)? Yes or no?
It is that simple.
Purrs,
Pookie

[azzig]

Pookie, please clarify...don't you think our school funding should come from other coffers than property taxes? it's just so unfair - and while i realize life is unfair - we just think maybe our children should be treated equally for a short time until they are adults.
education may be our only way out of this mess the old farts have stuck us in. And a lot of people have brought on their economic woes themselves by living way beyond their means. If you ask yourself before buying something...do I really need this? Now?...then maybe you were brought up under the influence of the "depression baby" generation. I guess all we have now is the "poverty" generation that's too afraid to vote for something different rather than the same old born rich, married rich, dubious military and civilian "work" records....oh I digress again. Please don't ban me.:innocent:

[Osborn F. Enready]

Talk about emotional debate......

When is reason and law coming in to this?

[Muser]

Pookie, please clarify...don't you think our school funding should come from other coffers than property taxes?

What do you propose?

[azzig]

What do you propose?

state sales taxes on "luxury" items like cigarettes and booze (not that i'm against booze, but i'm willing to pay if it will fund schools).
revenues coming from traffic violations and other behaviors that are "voluntary choices".
I dunno, there's lots of possibilities for state funds for schools other than the property values of the district where the schools are located.
GEE maybe perhaps - FEDERAL funding for schools????
I didn't say I had all the answers, just my point that school funding by the property values of the district is not working, and probably hasn't worked for a long time.
Hey, I'm just an old fart senior who grew up in the '50's I don't have all the answers, but i can recognize a flawed system.
Hey, how about people having the MOST kids paying MORE to educate them? Now there's a radical concept.:peace:

[AnnEsthesia]

Erm. Schools cost $44,000,000 in my town alone. How high would those luxury taxes have to be?

[azzig]

Erm. Schools cost $44,000,000 in my town alone. How high would those luxury taxes have to be?

but i'm sure your municipality or state government gets revenue from other places where it is wasted. YOU got any answers? YOu seem to be a smart lady.

[AnnEsthesia]

Yea. Cut out bloated programs and suck it up if you need to pay taxes to fund it. Education is necessary.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Azzig said:
state sales taxes on "luxury" items like cigarettes and booze (not that i'm against booze, but i'm willing to pay if it will fund schools).

So, what about how this affects the luxury market? How does government get a right to directly interfere into influencing peoples decisions both in purchase and use of items, and by what method?

We are supposed to be a free market, since that is essential to individual rights.

A free market means equal access to rights protection through law, which is why calling trade with China and India a "free market" is completely false and misleading.

To lay taxes like this on luxury items only negatively affects all luxury business, as well as disenfranchises middle income earners who are removed from the market of such goods due to the extreme prices increases and fluctuation.

How is this aiding me in my "pursuit of happiness"?

azzig said:
revenues coming from traffic violations and other behaviors that are "voluntary choices".

Government has a right to tax to fund necessity, that necessity is defined in the Constitution. Health and welfare are not necessity in regards to MEANS to access, only EQUALITY OF ACCESS, assuming you have the means.

Azzig said:
I dunno, there's lots of possibilities for state funds for schools other than the property values of the district where the schools are located.

I agree, and many of them would not constitute constitutional violation, which makes the way they are funded now even more showing of the lack of understanding, or purposeful misdirection republicans and democrats have been taking us for the last 60+ years.

Azzig said:
GEE maybe perhaps - FEDERAL funding for schools????

Federal funding for schools would constitute a direct tax if I am not mistaken, and direct taxes are limited by the Constitution. This purpose would not be Constitutional.

Azzig said:
I didn't say I had all the answers, just my point that school funding by the property values of the district is not working, and probably hasn't worked for a long time.

Agreed.

Azzig said:
Hey, I'm just an old fart senior who grew up in the '50's I don't have all the answers, but i can recognize a flawed system.

Your opinion and vote count as much as anyones.... ;) I respect your point of view.

Azzig said:
Hey, how about people having the MOST kids paying MORE to educate them? Now there's a radical concept

That would entail self-responsibility, but it seems dems and reps are trying to extinguish self-responsibility as a valid lifestyle. (you would need them less) ;)

[Osborn F. Enready]

Azzig said:
state sales taxes on "luxury" items like cigarettes and booze (not that i'm against booze, but i'm willing to pay if it will fund schools).

So, what about how this affects the luxury market? How does government get a right to directly interfere into influencing peoples decisions both in purchase and use of items, and by what method?

We are supposed to be a free market, since that is essential to individual rights.

A free market means equal access to rights protection through law, which is why calling trade with China and India a "free market" is completely false and misleading.

To lay taxes like this on luxury items only negatively affects all luxury business, as well as disenfranchises middle income earners who are removed from the market of such goods due to the extreme prices increases and fluctuation.

How is this aiding me in my "pursuit of happiness"?

azzig said:
revenues coming from traffic violations and other behaviors that are "voluntary choices".

Government has a right to tax to fund necessity, that necessity is defined in the Constitution. Health and welfare are not necessity in regards to MEANS to access, only EQUALITY OF ACCESS, assuming you have the means.

Azzig said:
I dunno, there's lots of possibilities for state funds for schools other than the property values of the district where the schools are located.

I agree, and many of them would not constitute constitutional violation, which makes the way they are funded now even more showing of the lack of understanding, or purposeful misdirection republicans and democrats have been taking us for the last 60+ years.

Azzig said:
GEE maybe perhaps - FEDERAL funding for schools????

Federal funding for schools would constitute a direct tax if I am not mistaken, and direct taxes are limited by the Constitution. This purpose would not be Constitutional.

Azzig said:
I didn't say I had all the answers, just my point that school funding by the property values of the district is not working, and probably hasn't worked for a long time.

Agreed.

Azzig said:
Hey, I'm just an old fart senior who grew up in the '50's I don't have all the answers, but i can recognize a flawed system.

Your opinion and vote count as much as anyones.... ;) I respect your point of view.

Azzig said:
Hey, how about people having the MOST kids paying MORE to educate them? Now there's a radical concept

That would entail self-responsibility, but it seems dems and reps are trying to extinguish self-responsibility as a valid lifestyle. (you would need them less) ;)

[Osborn F. Enready]

Ann said:
Erm. Schools cost $44,000,000 in my town alone. How high would those luxury taxes have to be?

So, why don't you ask the REAL question Ann?

Why has your towns citizens, allowed your local government to expand the city without assuring the allocation of funds to support itself?
Why is your LOCAL government not being held accountable for the funding IT ALREADY RECIEVES, and be DEMANDED to show proof of this fund outlay along with growth and future expenditures predictions, based on actual DATA?

[AnnEsthesia]

So, why don't you ask the REAL question Ann?

Why has your towns citizens, allowed your local government to expand the city without assuring the allocation of funds to support itself?
Why is your LOCAL government not being held accountable for the funding IT ALREADY RECIEVES, and be DEMANDED to show proof of this fund outlay along with growth and future expenditures predictions, based on actual DATA?

Who says they haven't been? Honestly, do you even listen to yourself anymore? Yea, how dare the local government not force people not to have kids so they do not have to deal with more students. Yea, ok. You do understand they way things work, right? It costs more to run school systems because of the war and inflation and everything else.

[Pookie]

Azzig, the schools here are funded by both state funds and local taxes. The schools last year had to do a fund drive for new computers. The gas prices for the buses has thrown the schools' funds for a loop. Something had to be done. Children are our future, and they need the tools to become the leaders of tomorrow.
The schools' funds were cut in favor of that huge raise for the county commissioners, and that simply is not right. I was able to squish that and get the funds back to the schools that were cut.

Please read my posts in this thread. You will see that I operate on a very simple principle: Do we need this? Yes or no? It is that simple.

My daughter is 25 and in the Navy in California. I do not have children in school here. It should not matter how many kids you have. The public school system has a responsibility to educate ALL children, and they need the money to do so. Private schools, as far as I am concerned, are on their own. They charge outrageous tuition fees and get federal funding, so poo on them.

If you read my posts and see my stance and the reason why I am going to run for county commissioner here, you may understand me a bit more. I am a registered Independent, and I do not play party crap.
Purrs,
Pookie

[AnnEsthesia]

Amen Pookie. It is sad that people here would rather pass the funding of schooling off to others. "Well, parents should pay for it themselves". As if most families can afford that these days. "Well, someone will fund it, just not me." And what do you do when 'someone' doesn't?

[Osborn F. Enready]

Muser said:
What do you propose?

-I propose partial funding can be taken from 50% of state and all state registered lottery ticket sales.
-I propose that all funds raised for education are tax free.
-I propose that schools use their gyms, fieldhouses and recess areas for charitable fund raising on off school hours if the community necessitates it through education funding driven charity drives.
-I propose that if any taxation is to be used to fund schooling at the local level, it must only be tax on those who have kids that use the service.
-I propose that county, city and state treasurers set up a business educational benefit fund, which would allow local business to write off a portion of their federal tax deductions the amount they place into their local business educational benefit fund to fund local, city and state schools where they are based. This helps assure the business that in the future they will have educated employees to do the jobs they are creating a need for in the market, and would encourage use of the fund for both tax relief as well as charitable donations for the cause.
-I propose that all places of retail or service business be required as part of license to operate their respective business, to allow space for a donation jar for local schooling, the jar provided for and serviced by local, country, state revenue collectors. The jar would be standardized in size and would be unobtrusive to business operation, as well as locked. (this would benefit everyone, including the business owner, since all businesses rely somewhat on the educational systems ability to provide educated workers. It is within the right of the government to require such things for license, and a part of the license fee could go directly toward the fund) (( I am no fan of mandatory licensing, but this could be a incremental step toward removing that mandatory licensing))

There are several other ways to raise funding without use of force.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Ann said:
Who says they haven't been?

Obviously if the cities government is not doing its job, it results in unbalanced, unsupportable growth/contraction and funding issues.

Ann said:
Honestly, do you even listen to yourself anymore? Yea, how dare the local government not force people not to have kids so they do not have to deal with more students.

Double negative much?
Please say what you meant so I can understand it?

Ann said:
Yea, ok. You do understand they way things work, right? It costs more to run school systems because of the war and inflation and everything else.

I understand that cities rarely are governed well under democrats or republicans, and this often leads to similar problems due to their similar flawed philosophies.

For example... A mayor is where the buck stops concerning city growth/contraction, tax rates, etc. It seems many places Mayors have allowed their city to expand (by zoning) irresponsibly, creating areas that literally cannot support themselves to any degree. Once this trend starts, they start relying on federal money more and more to support their ill-designed and carried out city planning. The federal budget becomes an ATM, and the money they get never has to be paid back, but with the acceptance of federal funding comes restrictions, guidelines, etc, etc, etc.

All this does is show how poorly the system is governed.

[azzig]

i forgot about charitable tax credits that give people breaks off their income taxes. Gee whiz, we have enough money to go to war, but not enough to educate children? What kind of country do we live in? That's rhetorical.:thumbsup::ponder:

[AnnEsthesia]

-I propose that if any taxation is to be used to fund schooling at the local level, it must only be tax on those who have kids that use the service.

Can we do that in reverse? Can I stop paying for the seniors in my community? After all, I do not use those services. How about the handicapped? I do not use that either. I also do not use the town pool. Can I stop paying for that? I have a 4 wheel drive car. So, I don't need the roads plowed. Can I stop paying for that?

[AnnEsthesia]

Double negative much?
Please say what you meant so I can understand it?


It is not a double negative. Sorry you have issues with reading. Try taking it one word at a time. I am sure you can manage.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Ann said:
Can we do that in reverse? Can I stop paying for the seniors in my community?

Why are you paying now? You are paying because your bi-partisan government allowed theft from their checks, to be promised back at a later date with intrest. (never mind both parties stole from the fund which was forbidden in law to be stolen from....)

People who depend on social security NOW are entitled to their funds promised. That is why before the situation worsens, we MUST stop the system as it is and redesign it, privatize it, and make it BENEFICIAL to those who use it.

Ann said:
After all, I do not use those services.

What services Ann? You are painting with such broad brush strokes of vaguery, I can't make sense of what you are saying.

What services do you pay for that you don't use? (and why)

Ann said:
How about the handicapped?

How about them? What is your implication here?

Ann said:
I do not use that either. I also do not use the town pool. Can I stop paying for that? I have a 4 wheel drive car. So, I don't need the roads plowed. Can I stop paying for that?

Those are all valid questions Ann, but you don't seem to get the point.

The fact is, you can stop paying for anything. The question is can you deal with the force that will be used against you, for not doing so.

Now, once again.

Your entire false argument rests on the "claim" that these issues can't be remedied UNLESS FORCE IS USED.

I fail to see proof of this.

How were the first roads in this country built Ann?
How about the Railroads?

The government didn't start getting involved until later Ann, and after the New Deal the system exploded in public works programs that built up an enourmous amount of infrastructure, most of which is now aging and enormously expensive to upkeep.

Poor goverining and lack of ideas is the problem, force isn't required to make a community work.

[AnnEsthesia]

Osborn, you seem to be having an issue reading today. Try reading what I said above and the "vagaries" will be resolved. And no, I cannot and will not stop paying taxes. Unlike you, I view paying taxes as a necessary evil. According to what you are saying above, we should maintain funding for seniors "since they were promised it", but stop the practice. Um... so I should pay into it to fund it for seniors now, and never see a dime of my money? Yea, ok.

As for the rest, you seem to want everyone to be for themselves. I suggest a cabin in Alaska for you.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Ann said:
Osborn, you seem to be having an issue reading today. Try reading what I said above and the "vagaries" will be resolved. And no, I cannot and will not stop paying taxes. Unlike you, I view paying taxes as a necessary evil. According to what you are saying above, we should maintain funding for seniors "since they were promised it", but stop the practice. Um... so I should pay into it to fund it for seniors now, and never see a dime of my money? Yea, ok.

As for the rest, you seem to want everyone to be for themselves. I suggest a cabin in Alaska for you.


... and I can say I will likely have the last laugh, after you get the revolution you seem so intent to fuel with your votes. I know I can weather that storm.... I don't know about you anti-rights folks though.

[azzig]

like it or not, most of us baby boomers paid a LOT of our earned income into social security. just because our corrupt politicians have already spent it doesn't mean seniors are not entitled to their benefits.
I guess you all are way too young to think about retirement, or to care about what happens to the elderly. after all, us old geezers are all expendible and worthless to society in SOME of ya'll opinions. i also suppose NONE of you have aging parents or grandparents that you care for?
Pretty damn selfish attitude. I guess i should not care about education children in spite of the fact that I have NONE of my own, BUT I DO.
I think it's sad how far down we have come as a nation when we don't care about the old, the sick, the handicapped --oh yeah there was a solution once ---the Nazi's got it down pretty good didn't they?

[Osborn F. Enready]

Excuse me Azzig, but I am a live-in care provider for my father.

Family bears responsibility for family, but the state is not a caregiver.

I agree, many of the older folks were sold out and lied to by the bi-partisans who supported the new-deal. Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, and most of the other associated programs were built on idealism and altruism, not legal binding law or common sense, much less economic sense.

I think those who have been robbed from for S.S. and are over 45 should be entitled to collect their promised amounts. I think anyone under 45 should be cut out of the system and the system allowed to expire.

[azzig]

Respectfully, I know exactly where you are right now. My Mom died a little over a year ago at 90+ and in spite of her poor old body falling apart, her mind was intact until the end. She was legally blind for more than half her life, so after my Dad died in '83, I became her companion for almost 25 years. the last 5 were rough, with multiple strokes that I managed to rehab her myself a few times. I was a nurse, so all my training came in handy. I live in a retirement community and there are LOT's and lots of folks here who struggle to make it on their own because their kids are not very involved in their lives.
I think we have a responsibility as human beings to care for other human beings who are not as fortunate as we are, regardless of the situation that got them there. Even the real losers out there that have gotten themselves into their holes all by themselves would be less of a drain on the system if they were given a "hand up" rather than a "handout".
I'm with you all the way, and bless you for taking care of your Dad. you will never regret it in spite of being the most difficult task in the world. Raising kids is a piece of cake compared to sticking with your parents to the end.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Thanks Azzig, well taken and it means a lot. ;)

[Pookie]

Respectfully, I know exactly where you are right now. My Mom died a little over a year ago at 90+ and in spite of her poor old body falling apart, her mind was intact until the end. She was legally blind for more than half her life, so after my Dad died in '83, I became her companion for almost 25 years. the last 5 were rough, with multiple strokes that I managed to rehab her myself a few times. I was a nurse, so all my training came in handy. I live in a retirement community and there are LOT's and lots of folks here who struggle to make it on their own because their kids are not very involved in their lives.
I think we have a responsibility as human beings to care for other human beings who are not as fortunate as we are, regardless of the situation that got them there. Even the real losers out there that have gotten themselves into their holes all by themselves would be less of a drain on the system if they were given a "hand up" rather than a "handout".
I'm with you all the way, and bless you for taking care of your Dad. you will never regret it in spite of being the most difficult task in the world. Raising kids is a piece of cake compared to sticking with your parents to the end.

My Mommy was 42 when I was born, Daddy was 56. I took good care of both of them in my own home. Unfortunately, I lost my Daddy in 1996 (he was 90) and I lost my Mommy in 2002, she was 82.

I believe in taking care of our seniors. They are the reason we are here.
Purrs,
Pookie

[Osborn F. Enready]

Pookie said:
I believe in taking care of our seniors. They are the reason we are here.

Exactly, logical and obvious, yet some still refuse it and push this burden onto the state.

[AnnEsthesia]

Not all seniors have families. Who cares for them then?

[AnnEsthesia]

Not all seniors have families who can deal with their medical needs or who have the money to pay for their care. Who takes care of them then?

[Osborn F. Enready]

Ann said:
Not all seniors have families. Who cares for them then?

Ann said:
Not all seniors have families who can deal with their medical needs or who have the money to pay for their care. Who takes care of them then?

Proper Prior Planning.... charity....friends.....

[AnnEsthesia]

yea, because everyone plans to be poor

[Pookie]

Medicaid helps, and many nursing homes take them and care for them. I know this for a fact here -- when I had to put Mommy in a rest home, I found this out.
Purrs,
Pookie

[AnnEsthesia]

Medicaid helps, and many nursing homes take them and care for them. I know this for a fact here -- when I had to put Mommy in a rest home, I found this out.
Purrs,
Pookie

I know Pookie, but what he is suggesting is NOT using public funds. So ... where do those people go then?

[Osborn F. Enready]

Pookie said:
Medicaid helps, and many nursing homes take them and care for them. I know this for a fact here -- when I had to put Mommy in a rest home, I found this out.

I am not saying it doesn't help those who have been thieved from their entire working lives Pookie... those people were promised a service by a treaonous government that we the people allowed.... but we must assure that same system is stopped or made constitutionally sound before it bankrupts the nation with the rest of the entitlement programs.

[ViolaLee]

I know Pookie, but what he is suggesting is NOT using public funds. So ... where do those people go then?To the streets! Where every proud Libertarian hopes their parents end up.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Viola said:
To the streets! Where every proud Libertarian hopes their parents end up.

Did you miss the thread where I explained that I, a person holding libertarian values, is a live in caretaker for my elderly father?

This is what I don't understand.......

Actions speak louder than words.....

You people are all complaining about how the health system is broken and those who need care aren't getting it, but you fail to address the REAL issues that are causing this problem to occur.

How can you fix anything this way?

[Pookie]

Whoa, wait a minute!! I started this thread about LOCAL issues. About stuff that mattered to me on a LOCAL level. I'm not a Congresswoman or Senator. I can't fix the health care system because I am not there!
I have to start in my own back yard. I have made a few small changes in my own back yard.
Let's get back to my topic. I have a question:
What are you folks doing for your back yards?
Purrs,
Pookie

[Osborn F. Enready]

Pookie said:
What are you folks doing for your back yards?

Every damn thing I can Pookie, short of using force, to make it better.

We have what they call a "Strong Mayor" in Toledo, Ohio where I live.

That is basicly like a nice way to say the Mayor serves a term of tyranny.

Its really hard to get anything done with a "Strong Mayor", so if any of you folks out there here this being used as an "excuse" to "get things done", don't fall for the lie.

Our mayor has done nothing to help this city, but plenty to hurt it.

Here is a thread I started in the Humor section about Mayor Carty, because this schmuck is so bad if I didn't try to laugh, I would be forced to cry.

http://democracyforums.com/showthread.php?t=15846

[Truth_and_Power]

To the streets! Where every proud Libertarian hopes their parents end up.

Libertarians just want the 20% of their income back that goes to care for the parents of liberals. You'll need to get your facts straight here, you're not preaching to a bunch of brain dead liberal ladies at the PTA.

[Osborn F. Enready]

You mean this isn't the Soccer Mom convention T&P?!?

;)

[azzig]

We have what they call a "Strong Mayor" in Toledo, Ohio where I live.
That is basicly like a nice way to say the Mayor serves a term of tyranny. Its really hard to get anything done with a "Strong Mayor", so if any of you folks out there here this being used as an "excuse" to "get things done", don't fall for the lie. Our mayor has done nothing to help this city, but plenty to hurt it.
we have Joe, "the last wild west sheriff", out here to harrass people with brown skin. he was going from town to town with his "task forces" trying to arrest anyone "illegal", but his success rate was about 50%. when the constituents started complaining, the state reigned in some of his funding. While I agreee that "drop houses" are a real problem here, especially with the foreclosure crisis particularly bad in Arizona, I think community watch programs could be more effective in catching these human trafficers. o holy crap, am I too off topic ? if i am i apologize. just another critique on how OUR tax dollars are used.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Azzig said:
we have Joe, "the last wild west sheriff", out here to harrass people with brown skin. he was going from town to town with his "task forces" trying to arrest anyone "illegal", but his success rate was about 50%. when the constituents started complaining, the state reigned in some of his funding. While I agreee that "drop houses" are a real problem here, especially with the foreclosure crisis particularly bad in Arizona, I think community watch programs could be more effective in catching these human trafficers. o holy crap, am I too off topic ? if i am i apologize. just another critique on how OUR tax dollars are used.

Well said Azzig, and I agree with your point. Community watch and people like the minutemen could and do, in my opinion (from what little facts I have seen) a better job.

You are talking about Joe Arpaio right?

[azzig]

yeah, osborn, I guess his reputation spreads far and wide. I was born in Toledo, but my Dad moved to WV when I was a baby. Like I mentioned in my last post, foreclosures are bad here. I think we're in the top 5 states. It's sad because a lot of people are trashing their houses because they are so pissed off at losing them. It's going to take a long time for this situation to recover if ever.

[Osborn F. Enready]

I agree Azzig....

Funny how small the world is eh...born in Toledo....

I actually agree with some of "Old Joe's" stances, but I can't speak for his methods as I haven't seen it firsthand.

The thing I don't get about getting us out of this mess is how people can think that voting for one of two parties that created the problems we are now seeing, can help us?

Its like proof of insanity.

[PatrickHenry]

Erm. Schools cost $44,000,000 in my town alone. ...Is $44 million of educational benefit being provided? If not, where can the education budget be cut?

If so, who is benefiting from the expenditures?

The children, by receiving a basic education?

The businesses of your community, by having an educated workforce trained for their use?

The community as a whole, by having responsible, capable citizens mainstreamed into the community's values?

If yes to these, let's apportion the value received to the groups who are benefiting and charge accordingly.

But property taxes are just plain wrong.

In essence what a property tax is...is RENT. The government is stating very clearly that you have a right to your property only so long as you pay them their annual fees. If not, they will send men with badges and guns to evict you, then "sell" your property to another who must pay their fees. That's what Landlords do.

Now the SCOTUS has ruled that they can evict you to turn your property over to another user who will pay them higher fees (rent). That is what Landlords do.

The debate over the right/wrong of public funding for education is not synonmymous with debating property taxes. They are really two different topics...it's just that they get mixed in together because most of property tax nowadays goes to public schools.

And unfortunately, public schools are beset by other problems that cause many of us to doubt if public education is worth supporting at all...

[Comrade]

It's slightly different here I think, but overall my parents spend about £1200 on house taxes. Thats coming close to $2400.

But I support your cause if you (and many others in your town) are in a situation where that sort of raise has a big effect, I hope all goes well for you!

[Osborn F. Enready]

Pat said:
Is $44 million of educational benefit being provided? If not, where can the education budget be cut?

If so, who is benefiting from the expenditures?

The children, by receiving a basic education?

The businesses of your community, by having an educated workforce trained for their use?

The community as a whole, by having responsible, capable citizens mainstreamed into the community's values?

If yes to these, let's apportion the value received to the groups who are benefiting and charge accordingly.

But property taxes are just plain wrong.

In essence what a property tax is...is RENT. The government is stating very clearly that you have a right to your property only so long as you pay them their annual fees. If not, they will send men with badges and guns to evict you, then "sell" your property to another who must pay their fees. That's what Landlords do.

Now the SCOTUS has ruled that they can evict you to turn your property over to another user who will pay them higher fees (rent). That is what Landlords do.

The debate over the right/wrong of public funding for education is not synonmymous with debating property taxes. They are really two different topics...it's just that they get mixed in together because most of property tax nowadays goes to public schools.

And unfortunately, public schools are beset by other problems that cause many of us to doubt if public education is worth supporting at all...


Great post Pat....