How bad does it have to get?

[Osborn F. Enready]

No, I will not comply. PERIOD!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjJae6IHYkI&feature=rec-fresh

Mike Badnarik talks about some common sense reality, taken right from your Constitution, USA. :thumbsup:

[Milton Bradley]

As you know, they are very close to crossing my proverbial line in the sand.


Hopefully, I won't be forced into the role of "lone gunman", because other people are waking up to the sad reality of our situation.


When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them...

[IndieVisible]

But how do we know that the Libertarian party will not become the next nazi party? :ponder:

[Buck Laser]

But how do we know that the Libertarian party will not become the next nazi party? :ponder:
They won't go Nazi, Indie. They'll go mostly irrelevant. Libertarianism is an interesting and attractive (to some) political philosophy. But it's never really been shown to work in a modern environment. Libertarians will claim, falsely in my opinion, that the early United States was in some way a libertarian nation. But there was the Whiskey Rebellion, the various tariffs imposed on imports that might compete with American products, and whole mishmash of conflicting state laws.

States' rights may sound like a great idea to younger people, but I remember all too well how "states' rights" was simply a transparent ruse for maintaining Jim Crow segregation.

Most of us find some laws governing personal behavior oppressive in one way or another--restrictions on behavior in the bedroom, speed limits, safety regulations, watering restrictions in my town when my lawn is dying, prohibitions on shooting a firearm in my backyard. Someone, somewhere is pissed about at least ONE of these laws. But there is that delicate balance between restriction of MY freedom and respect for the freedom of others to be annoyed by me.

Too many libertarians, it seems to me, put their own right to cause nuisances above the rights of their neighbors to peace and quiet. I can understand the emotion that would lead someone to that, but not the rationale.

[Milton Bradley]

They won't go Nazi, Indie. They'll go mostly irrelevant. Libertarianism is an interesting and attractive (to some) political philosophy. But it's never really been shown to work in a modern environment. Libertarians will claim, falsely in my opinion, that the early United States was in some way a libertarian nation. But there was the Whiskey Rebellion, the various tariffs imposed on imports that might compete with American products, and whole mishmash of conflicting state laws.

States' rights may sound like a great idea to younger people, but I remember all too well how "states' rights" was simply a transparent ruse for maintaining Jim Crow segregation.

Most of us find some laws governing personal behavior oppressive in one way or another--restrictions on behavior in the bedroom, speed limits, safety regulations, watering restrictions in my town when my lawn is dying, prohibitions on shooting a firearm in my backyard. Someone, somewhere is pissed about at least ONE of these laws. But there is that delicate balance between restriction of MY freedom and respect for the freedom of others to be annoyed by me.

Too many libertarians, it seems to me, put their own right to cause nuisances above the rights of their neighbors to peace and quiet. I can understand the emotion that would lead someone to that, but not the rationale.


Their ideas are still more sound than the ones practiced in Washington these days.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Indie said:
But how do we know that the Libertarian party will not become the next nazi party?

I would suggest you study the platform values of the Nazi party before you ask such a question.....

Perhaps because they are nearly total opposites?

[Osborn F. Enready]

Buck said:
Too many libertarians, it seems to me, put their own right to cause nuisances above the rights of their neighbors to peace and quiet. I can understand the emotion that would lead someone to that, but not the rationale.

Too many republicans and democrats are provably traitors to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights to ever trust them with power again......

[Buck Laser]

Too many republicans and democrats are provably traitors to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights to ever trust them with power again......

There you go again...

[Osborn F. Enready]

I have yet to see you refute anything Buck....

Why should I stop using an ace in the hole, that works everytime, because the facts support it?

[Easy90]

Hey Osborn....who's he mad at? If you think a bunch of Libertarians who all have nice, well paying jobs, plenty to eat, and all the basic entitlements of being and American are going to "rise up"...and start shooting people (because they're just fucking paranoid about ...something...) you need to take a deep drink from the reality well my friend. When people start leaving America for somewhere better...then I might share your fears... Right now..we have to put up barriers to keep people out...

Nothing wrong with being vigilant about your rights...but when it becomes a mental thing..and you're thinking of moving to Montana and holing up in a cabin with your dog and a 30-30....you might need to take a pill or something.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Easy said:
Hey Osborn....who's he mad at?

The bi-partisan liars and criminals who are running the government, perverting the constitution, ruining the electoral system, have and continue to ruin our currency, digging us in deeper for national debt, getting our troops killed in unconstitutional, unnecessary wars..... you know, republicans and democrats.

Easy said:
If you think a bunch of Libertarians who all have nice, well paying jobs, plenty to eat, and all the basic entitlements of being and American are going to "rise up"...and start shooting people (because they're just fucking paranoid about ...something...) you need to take a deep drink from the reality well my friend.

People are all individuals, and without liberty, all that other stuff is just fluff for the cage you sit in. You may enjoy a frilly, fluffy cage to be housed in by your master, but most free people don't accept such trivial BS in exchange for their freedom.

Easy said:
When people start leaving America for somewhere better...then I might share your fears...

Do a little google on how U.S. production has been fleeing the country......
Do a little google on how many non-violent criminals are being arrested......

I have no fears, only preperation and conviction to say "I will not comply....period."

Easy said:
Right now..we have to put up barriers to keep people out...

That is the job of the government, to protect the border.... why haven't our bi-partisan criminals been getting that done Easy? Why have both stabbed the American people in the back when it comes to protecting their border and their national intrests?

Easy said:
Nothing wrong with being vigilant about your rights...but when it becomes a mental thing..and you're thinking of moving to Montana and holing up in a cabin with your dog and a 30-30....you might need to take a pill or something.

I am exchanging the pills for the removal of the problem.... I am just seperating myself from the sheeple, and putting up my own fence since my government won't do its job.

[IndieVisible]

I would suggest you study the platform values of the Nazi party before you ask such a question.....

Perhaps because they are nearly total opposites?

But Hitler was for values too. He didn't get elected and then the next day start throwing Jews in the oven. It was a gradual think just like your video mentions.

So here is the thing, a party always makes sense at first, wins over enough support to get elected, then starts manipulating the people just like you accuse the reps and dems. How do we know the Libertarians will be any different? They could be worse.

Hey no offense. I like that your a rebel, but I am just not convinced the Libertarians would be any better at all this. I also was thrilled to learn that not all Libertarians support pro choice and are pro life!

I am kind of in limbo really. I lean liberal in most cases except for a few conservative values I also share. I know I am not alone but certainly am a true minority in the Democratic Party. So it's not like I'm saying ha ha my party is better then yours. I just get a little urked you put down the dems and reps so hard and really, I don't think the Libertarians would be that different at all and in fact could cause havoc.

Just so ya know where I'm coming from if you werent sure by now ;)

[Osborn F. Enready]

Indie said:
But Hitler was for values too.

EXACTLY! Perhaps you should analyze those values...

Community before self......(democrat ideal)
What he decided was good for the nation, was right... everyone else, wrong.....(fascist, nationalist much like the neo-cons)
Those who didn't follow, became enemies.....(feared all who didn't agree, reps and dems share that trait)
Disarmed his ideological opponents.....(democrats party plank issue)
Believed force could be used as effectively as diplomacy....(neo-con, and democrat trait)


None of those things are shared by Libertarians...and in fact contradict most of the values and logical backing of the Libertarian platform.....

However, all of those values Hitler shared, are shared in part by the CURRENT parties of Democrats and Republicans, who now are also vying for total control of ALL THREE BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT......

Who do you think is more likely to become the next Hitler?

Indie said:
He didn't get elected and then the next day start throwing Jews in the oven. It was a gradual think just like your video mentions.

Exactly, and the heat has been being turned up on the U.S. for the last 60 years noticeably, and the last 100 years provably.

Indie said:
So here is the thing, a party always makes sense at first, wins over enough support to get elected, then starts manipulating the people just like you accuse the reps and dems. How do we know the Libertarians will be any different? They could be worse.

Libertarian MINDED people aren't afraid to bounce criminals out of office once they BREAK THEIR CONTRACTUAL OATH OF OFFICE. The main thrust of the Libertarian party is to RESTORE the value of that oath.

If Libertarians got elected, their voters surely wouldn't allow that to happen.

Indie said:
Hey no offense. I like that your a rebel, but I am just not convinced the Libertarians would be any better at all this. I also was thrilled to learn that not all Libertarians support pro choice and are pro life!

The party is as divided as any on the abortion issue......

One thing you may like about the Libertarian party in this respect is that they believe it should be a STATE issue, as opposed to a federal issue.

Indie said:
I am kind of in limbo really. I lean liberal in most cases except for a few conservative values I also share.

I am totally classical liberal in the social legal issues... and totally classic Republican on the economic issues.... that is basicly what a Libertarian is....

Pro-economic liberty, Pro-social liberty.
Anti-economic restrictions, anti-social restrictions.

Indie said:
I know I am not alone but certainly am a true minority in the Democratic Party. So it's not like I'm saying ha ha my party is better then yours. I just get a little urked you put down the dems and reps so hard and really, I don't think the Libertarians would be that different at all and in fact could cause havoc.

I think you make the mistake of thinking I am a 100% supporter of the Libertarian Party, when I am not.

I vote Libertarian for these reasons.....

1) They are the biggest third party in the nation.
2) Their platform is based on individual rights, which is really all that matters to me.
3) Their candidates, for the most part, avoid emotional arguments and prefer logical arguments to problems, questions and mainly economics.
4) Their almost always on my states ballot, for more offices every year. When they are, I usually work for them, but don't donate money because I don't have money to donate.
5) They are the only major party with 50 state access that support decriminalization, and legalization of drugs, ending the prohibition that has been unconstitutionally created and enforced for decades, and they want to legalize hemp for industrial use, which will add jobs to the farm economy.

As far as Libertarians being elected, and the result being Havoc.... I suggest you read and investigate some of your local Libertarian candidates... they are usually the only ones making sense economicly, policy speaking, and they almost always address the issues DIRECTLY, instead of beating around the bush like the reps and dems. They are also accessible to talk to, so you can actually meet them and get a feel of who they are.

Indie said:
Just so ya know where I'm coming from if you werent sure by now

I appreciate the clarifications.... ;)

[Buck Laser]

I have yet to see you refute anything Buck....

Why should I stop using an ace in the hole, that works everytime, because the facts support it?
Nor have I seen you refute anything, Os. I'm a lot more interested in analyzing what is rather than what might be. I just can't maintain the sense of anger that you and other libertarians seem to exist on. I was angry in my twenties, too. But then I had children to raise and feed, people who needed my services, a mortgage to pay, a business to run, and I kinda gave up looking for crosses to go climb on. I let myself get crucified a couple of times in the 60s, and it wasn't fun. But I've remained true to my liberal ideals, and I've learned that things move MUCH more slowly than I'd wish. There were an awful lot of people in the South in the 60s who were pissing and moaning about black people wanting to move next door only a hundred years after slavery ended. I guess there's a lot to be said for perspective in these things.

Refutability isn't really a matter of following some logical set of rules, but a matter of observation. My observation of the situation in America reveals a lot of major problems, some of them persisting throughout a century. But I do not see, and you cannot prove to me, that it's the revolutionary imperative you claim it is.

[Pookie]

I just saw this, and I watched that video. I don't know who that guy is, but I like him. I'm a gun-toting, tree-hugging liberal and I agree with him.
HELL no, I won't comply. PERIOD.
Thanks, Os, that was just inspiring. I appreciated that.
Purrs,
Pookie

[Osborn F. Enready]

Buck said:
Nor have I seen you refute anything, Os.

What have you put forth for me to refute Buck?

Buck said:
I'm a lot more interested in analyzing what is rather than what might be.

I am clearly talking about the hear and now Buck... what IS.

We have a Constitution and BOR recognized as the law of the land. Breaking that law and constitutional process has stated penalties. That law is being broken, repeatedly by BOTH parties who hold all power, and no penalties are being issued.... no claims investigated.... no justice served.

Protests are ignored....
Petitions for Redress are ignored....
The power of the Ballot has been removed, unless you support the two parties who have total control, and have brought about the ballot corruptions.....
The Constitution has been "set aside" by War and Emergency Powers, rights are being infringed, unconstitutional prohibitions are being waged with force, and YOUR and MY fellow citizens are suffering because of it......

We have failed to hold this government responsible to its stated oath, by individual, by collective, as representatives of the people.

Buck said:
I just can't maintain the sense of anger that you and other libertarians seem to exist on. I was angry in my twenties, too. But then I had children to raise and feed, people who needed my services, a mortgage to pay, a business to run, and I kinda gave up looking for crosses to go climb on.

You just said it yourself Buck....you kinda gave up.... you moved your un-crossable line back, and again, and again, and again.... and now you are in the same corner WE ALL ARE IN.... NO CHOICE, because two partys have effectively wrestled complete power away from the people over only a few generations of people, they have the strongest military in the world, the most effective propaganda machine, the most national credit and good will of the world.... AND THEY ARE BLOWING IT, squandering the noble acts we have done on partisan agenda, proxy wars and corrupt fund raising.

Buck said:
I let myself get crucified a couple of times in the 60s, and it wasn't fun. But I've remained true to my liberal ideals, and I've learned that things move MUCH more slowly than I'd wish. There were an awful lot of people in the South in the 60s who were pissing and moaning about black people wanting to move next door only a hundred years after slavery ended. I guess there's a lot to be said for perspective in these things.

Cultural and religious conservatism plays a huge role in many of those social hang-ups Buck, you have to admit that, don't you?

Buck said:
Refutability isn't really a matter of following some logical set of rules, but a matter of observation. My observation of the situation in America reveals a lot of major problems, some of them persisting throughout a century. But I do not see, and you cannot prove to me, that it's the revolutionary imperative you claim it is.

I am not asking you to pick up arms Buck... I am asking you to THINK about WHERE THAT UNCROSSABLE LINE IS, and STOP redrawing them if they get crossed.

You said a while back you believed in using force in defense.... well in DEFENSE OF WHAT?

That government of ours, in order to REMAIN valid must live up to and abide by the rules it claims it represents, honor its contractual promises, or BE REMOVED... THAT WAS THE NATIONAL VALUE of AMERICANS, our one common bond....our common essence, our cultural value.

We hold those truths to be SELF EVIDENT, at least some of us still do.

The spirit of party, mainly at the behest and design of Republicans and Democrats, have destroyed that common value, that cultural bond, which is the biggest problem in this country, and the wedge that partisans beat on with their party hammers to divide and counquer this nation. They have tricked people into thinking that they are dependent, that they can't survive, that they need a nanny government to act against its fellow citizens for the behest of their pet projects, the ANTITHESIS of individual rights and limited government..... They have tricked people into thinking peace at any cost is better than liberty at any cost... only long enough to get those shackles on you and turn the key on your future, your present and your past.

No thanks... I would rather die a young free man than an old caged man, life is meant for living, not getting by.

[Easy90]

Osborn says he's mad at: "The bi-partisan liars and criminals who are running the government, perverting the constitution, ruining the electoral system, have and continue to ruin our currency, digging us in deeper for national debt, getting our troops killed in unconstitutional, unnecessary wars..... you know, republicans and democrats."

He didn't say that. I watched the whole clip and for the life of me...he didn't explain who we're supposed to be mad at...or why. Except maybe, the Nazis...for killing the Jews.

Os...that's apparently who YOUR mad at...and when are you going to get a gun and start killing people? Just asking.

[Easy90]

I just saw this, and I watched that video. I don't know who that guy is, but I like him. I'm a gun-toting, tree-hugging liberal and I agree with him.
HELL no, I won't comply. PERIOD.
Thanks, Os, that was just inspiring. I appreciated that.
Purrs,
Pookie

What are you not going to comply with Pooks? Not gonna send your taxes in anymore?

[Osborn F. Enready]

Pookie said:
I just saw this, and I watched that video. I don't know who that guy is, but I like him. I'm a gun-toting, tree-hugging liberal and I agree with him.
HELL no, I won't comply. PERIOD.
Thanks, Os, that was just inspiring. I appreciated that.

You are welcome Pookie.

That was Libertarian Candidate for President 2004 Michael Badnarik, doing one of his Constitution classes which he teaches around the country.

From 2004: (Speechless Third Parties)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QFkq4PPuWM&feature=related

3rd Party candidates in America:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwCbZJtMOw4&feature=related

Ron Paul: What is a Billion Dollars?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1-E9ZsjkS4&feature=related



ITs bad enough.....

[Osborn F. Enready]

Easy said:
He didn't say that. I watched the whole clip and for the life of me...he didn't explain who we're supposed to be mad at...or why. Except maybe, the Nazis...for killing the Jews.

Os...that's apparently who YOUR mad at...and when are you going to get a gun and start killing people? Just asking.

Attend his class if you want to hear it from his mouth Easy.

(edited to add: That video is one part of like a 52 part video class series.)

[Pookie]

I am not going to comply with too much compromising of my rights. Like the guy in the video said, you stand up for what you believe to be true and right.
I've already taken on our county commissioners and won. You want to raise my property taxes? Good. Then repave my road, get us more cops and give the volunteer fire departments a bigger budget so they can get the equipment they need. Quit voting to give yourselves massive raises, stop allowing greedy developers to infest our beautiful mountains with gated communities, and fix the illegal Mexicans issue.
I said HELL no, and I WON. If I don't say NO to stuff going on in my own community, how can I fix other stuff?
What do you want?
I managed to get the people educated, and they were outraged. I was the spokeswoman.
Again, what do you want?
You need to start in your own backyard before telling others to clean theirs up.
Purrs,
Pookie

[Osborn F. Enready]

Pookie said:
I am not going to comply with too much compromising of my rights. Like the guy in the video said, you stand up for what you believe to be true and right.
I've already taken on our county commissioners and won. You want to raise my property taxes? Good. Then repave my road, get us more cops and give the volunteer fire departments a bigger budget so they can get the equipment they need. Quit voting to give yourselves massive raises, stop allowing greedy developers to infest our beautiful mountains with gated communities, and fix the illegal Mexicans issue.
I said HELL no, and I WON. If I don't say NO to stuff going on in my own community, how can I fix other stuff?
What do you want?
I managed to get the people educated, and they were outraged. I was the spokeswoman.
Again, what do you want?
You need to start in your own backyard before telling others to clean theirs up.

Excuse me while I offer my salute and respect M'am. ;)

[Pookie]

LOL Os! But that is just me. I won't put up with BS. I know you probably haven't seen this side of me, but that's just me. I look out after myself, my neighbors, and my community in which I live.
After all, it's only right that we take a stand and let our voices be heard. That is what I LOVE about the USA. Seeing these vids have made me more determined than ever to take a stand. I'm even thinking about running for County Commissioner in my district in 2010. I do have a backing.
We MUST take a stand, no matter what the issue. It may be about paving roads, it may be about bigger things like abortion or whatever, but I believe in picking my battles in order to make my community better at this time. Call me selfish and single-minded, but honestly, great things start at home. Who knows where this might go?
Thanks, Os. You have made me more determined than ever to make positive changes.
And I will.
Purrs,
Pookie

[Easy90]

Attend his class if you want to hear it from his mouth Easy.

(edited to add: That video is one part of like a 52 part video class series.)

I'm sorry, but I wouldn't sit through a psychotic paranoid rant like that by choice. I've no patience with America haters. The domestic ones are the worst~

[Easy90]

Osborn said: "Do a little google on how U.S. production has been fleeing the country......"

Yeah...that's because of taxes, unions, and government meddling with economic issues when they shouldn't...Is that what you're not going to tolerate anymore?

[Easy90]

Hey,..I know! You Liberaterians should refuse to pay your income taxes! That'll show em! LOL!

[Osborn F. Enready]

Easy said:
Yeah...that's because of taxes, unions, and government meddling with economic issues when they shouldn't...Is that what you're not going to tolerate anymore?

Obviously A LARGE PART OF IT......

Also Easy, I stopped paying my income taxes years ago. ;)
I also have written Social Security several times trying to get my funds returned to me in full, with no intrest for the time held.
I also have told the state and federal government to "take me off their rolls" for welfare, government aid, or any other assistance they may "claim to need in the name of citizens" while raising taxes, or further infringing on the national market.

[Invayne]

What have you put forth for me to refute Buck?



I am clearly talking about the hear and now Buck... what IS.

We have a Constitution and BOR recognized as the law of the land. Breaking that law and constitutional process has stated penalties. That law is being broken, repeatedly by BOTH parties who hold all power, and no penalties are being issued.... no claims investigated.... no justice served.

Protests are ignored....
Petitions for Redress are ignored....
The power of the Ballot has been removed, unless you support the two parties who have total control, and have brought about the ballot corruptions.....
The Constitution has been "set aside" by War and Emergency Powers, rights are being infringed, unconstitutional prohibitions are being waged with force, and YOUR and MY fellow citizens are suffering because of it......

We have failed to hold this government responsible to its stated oath, by individual, by collective, as representatives of the people.



You just said it yourself Buck....you kinda gave up.... you moved your un-crossable line back, and again, and again, and again.... and now you are in the same corner WE ALL ARE IN.... NO CHOICE, because two partys have effectively wrestled complete power away from the people over only a few generations of people, they have the strongest military in the world, the most effective propaganda machine, the most national credit and good will of the world.... AND THEY ARE BLOWING IT, squandering the noble acts we have done on partisan agenda, proxy wars and corrupt fund raising.



Cultural and religious conservatism plays a huge role in many of those social hang-ups Buck, you have to admit that, don't you?



I am not asking you to pick up arms Buck... I am asking you to THINK about WHERE THAT UNCROSSABLE LINE IS, and STOP redrawing them if they get crossed.

You said a while back you believed in using force in defense.... well in DEFENSE OF WHAT?

That government of ours, in order to REMAIN valid must live up to and abide by the rules it claims it represents, honor its contractual promises, or BE REMOVED... THAT WAS THE NATIONAL VALUE of AMERICANS, our one common bond....our common essence, our cultural value.

We hold those truths to be SELF EVIDENT, at least some of us still do.

The spirit of party, mainly at the behest and design of Republicans and Democrats, have destroyed that common value, that cultural bond, which is the biggest problem in this country, and the wedge that partisans beat on with their party hammers to divide and counquer this nation. They have tricked people into thinking that they are dependent, that they can't survive, that they need a nanny government to act against its fellow citizens for the behest of their pet projects, the ANTITHESIS of individual rights and limited government..... They have tricked people into thinking peace at any cost is better than liberty at any cost... only long enough to get those shackles on you and turn the key on your future, your present and your past.

No thanks... I would rather die a young free man than an old caged man, life is meant for living, not getting by.

:clapper:I couldn't agree more.

[Invayne]

LOL Os! But that is just me. I won't put up with BS. I know you probably haven't seen this side of me, but that's just me. I look out after myself, my neighbors, and my community in which I live.
After all, it's only right that we take a stand and let our voices be heard. That is what I LOVE about the USA. Seeing these vids have made me more determined than ever to take a stand. I'm even thinking about running for County Commissioner in my district in 2010. I do have a backing.
We MUST take a stand, no matter what the issue. It may be about paving roads, it may be about bigger things like abortion or whatever, but I believe in picking my battles in order to make my community better at this time. Call me selfish and single-minded, but honestly, great things start at home. Who knows where this might go?
Thanks, Os. You have made me more determined than ever to make positive changes.
And I will.
Purrs,
Pookie

Run for president, Pook. You'll probably be the only Democrat I'd vote for!:thumbsup:

[Osborn F. Enready]

I would second that Pookie...but don't give the corrupt democrat party the dignity and self-respect a candidate like you would offer by association.....

[Invayne]

I'm sorry, but I wouldn't sit through a psychotic paranoid rant like that by choice. I've no patience with America haters. The domestic ones are the worst~

I don't consider him an America hater. He's just trying to get it back to what it's SUPPOSED to be. It's these damned Constitution killers that are the REAL haters of America.

[Invayne]

I would second that Pookie...but don't give the corrupt democrat party the dignity and self-respect a candidate like you would offer by association.....

Agreed. She shouldn't be affiliated with Democrats at all.

[davo]

They won't go Nazi, Indie. They'll go mostly irrelevant. Libertarianism is an interesting and attractive (to some) political philosophy. But it's never really been shown to work in a modern environment. Libertarians will claim, falsely in my opinion, that the early United States was in some way a libertarian nation. But there was the Whiskey Rebellion, the various tariffs imposed on imports that might compete with American products, and whole mishmash of conflicting state laws.

States' rights may sound like a great idea to younger people, but I remember all too well how "states' rights" was simply a transparent ruse for maintaining Jim Crow segregation.

Most of us find some laws governing personal behavior oppressive in one way or another--restrictions on behavior in the bedroom, speed limits, safety regulations, watering restrictions in my town when my lawn is dying, prohibitions on shooting a firearm in my backyard. Someone, somewhere is pissed about at least ONE of these laws. But there is that delicate balance between restriction of MY freedom and respect for the freedom of others to be annoyed by me.

Too many libertarians, it seems to me, put their own right to cause nuisances above the rights of their neighbors to peace and quiet. I can understand the emotion that would lead someone to that, but not the rationale.

Libertarianism has not been practically tested, and IMHO the entire Libertarian philosophy is not practical for running an entire country by its book. However, elements of it are certainly worthwhile of pursuing, and limiting the size and scope of government is a noble objective.

As for Jim Crow segregation, this is not what state's rights defended. In fact, previous SCOTUS decisions upheld racial segregation, such as the 1883 decision on the 'civil rights act' and Plessy v Ferguson (1896). Individual states were always free to enact or retract their own laws regarding segregation and discrimination.
** Note that a supreme court decision represents the opinion of judges at the time on the constitution, and this tends to change from time to time.

[Osborn F. Enready]

“We are not to expect to be translated from despotism to liberty in a featherbed”
-Thomas Jefferson

“The liberty of the individual is a necessary postulate of human progress.”
-Ernest Renan

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
-Samuel Adams, speech at the Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776.

“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.”
-Patrick Henry, from “Against the Federal Constitution”, 1788-Jun-5

“In growing up, the normal individual has learned to check the expression of aggressive impulses. But the culture has failed, almost entirely, in inculcating internal controls on actions that have their origin in authority. For this reason, the latter constitutes a far greater danger to human survival.”
-Stanley Milgram, Yale social psychologist, in Obedience To Authority

“Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.”
-Daniel Webster


Davo, I am not claiming Libertarians are a perfect party, or a perfect or the ONLY ideal one should live by.....

I am simply saying this nation was founded as a nation of law based on enumerated limitations on both citizens, and government. That limitation is respect for rights which the founders, and our law deems as "unalienable" and "self-evident truths".

I am non-partisan, I am not here to champion the Libertarian Party..... I am simply saying this.....which was said by someone before I agreed with it.....

“This country is a one-party country. Half of it is called Republican and half is called Democrat. It doesn't make any difference. All the really good ideas belong to the Libertarians.”
-Hugh Downs, 1997

They are not the answer, or the end to our problems.... simply a stepping stone of necessity in righting the legal and constitutional wrongs perpetrated, executed and carried out by Republicans and Democrats.

[Pookie]

Agreed. She shouldn't be affiliated with Democrats at all.

I'm going to run as an Independent. I've made my mind up about that. When I considered running for County Commissioner I have had it with both parties and changed my registration to Independent. I am no longer a Democrat.
And thanks, folks! Thanks for the support! I appreciate it.
Purrs,
The Independent Pookie

[Invayne]

I'm going to run as an Independent. I've made my mind up about that. When I considered running for County Commissioner I have had it with both parties and changed my registration to Independent. I am no longer a Democrat.
And thanks, folks! Thanks for the support! I appreciate it.
Purrs,
The Independent Pookie

YAY! She's not longer a Demwit!:madlaugh:

Ya know ah lubz ya no matter wut you are!

[bishop]

for all the critiques of libertarianism is the seemingly intentional omission that this country was entirely founded on libertarian principles. the tax system was libertarian for over a century, longer than the 13th amendment has been in effect. the federal government was there to facilitate interstate commerce, movement and to defend the homeland. the federal government was prevented from burdening public with debt or infringing on their civil liberties.

the problems we face today are a direct result of the two-party system and people seem to think that the same group is somehow going to make things better.. it's akin to thinking that another 4 years of bush will make the situation in the middle east better.

[Milton Bradley]

Well Bishop, some people just like to be on the winning team, and they don't care who they have to step on to get there. ( Or so it seems...)


I think our contemporaries underestimate politics before television the same way that archeologists are always underestimating prehistoric man. They just have no capacity to imagine a world minus all the conveniences, and just assume everybody had to be a cave man with no potential for rational dialogue. ( and, if true, that might be the most ironic thing I have ever written. )

[bishop]

some people.... heh.. MOST people is more like it.

i personally don't believe that people are stupid, but rather, misguided and blinded by their egos and fear (one would say they're one and the same). people need to dig deep and look for what they truly believe in - and be honest with the track records of their candidates and their parties.. if they genuinely don't believe that we ought to be free and focused on their own prosperity (and not to the detriment of others), then the republican/democrat candidate won't deliver it to them.

[Milton Bradley]

some people.... heh.. MOST people is more like it.

i personally don't believe that people are stupid, but rather, misguided and blinded by their egos and fear (one would say they're one and the same). people need to dig deep and look for what they truly believe in - and be honest with the track records of their candidates and their parties.. if they genuinely don't believe that we ought to be free and focused on their own prosperity (and not to the detriment of others), then the republican/democrat candidate won't deliver it to them.


That's why I was careful to use the term "some people". ( I'm learning to paint with smaller brushes. LOL ) My faith in mankind is low, but I don't think we're so far gone as to include "most people" just yet.


My target is fairly consistent, party politics, and organized religion, two of the worst scourges roaming the planet in my opinion. I make a few sheeple rants on occasion, but I like the big, slow targets.

:evil:

[bishop]

tis a whole lot of baby steps.. i wonder if the race will be over before we reach the finish line..