Thinking About Patriotism

[Buck Laser]

Because so many people of conservative political views accuse us liberals of "hating
America," I thought it might be time to set down a few thoughts about just how and why
we love America. I'll do my best to avoid contrasting our views with conservatives or
raising "red flag" issues, but I suspect I won't succeed to the satisfaction of everyone.

Perhaps the most immediately evident thing that makes me a patriot is the evidence I've
seen over a lifetime of America's ability to recognize its mistakes and misdirections and
to take positive action to correct them. It doesn't always work perfectly, but we do try.
If I chose to, I could dwell on mistakes for a long time, and will do so if someone really
wants me to do so. Instead, let's look at the things we've done to correct our missteps.

Between the end of the Civil War and Theodore Roosevelt's ascent to the presidency,
business interests in America—the railroads, the coal industry, meat packers, clothing
manufacturers and others created a climate in which they believed they actually owned
America. Roosevelt, being who he was, wasn't about to bow to these plutocrats. He
wasn't able to come in with a mighty club and sweep them out, but his "trust busters" set
the stage for a series of significant reforms that would continue for the next forty years. I
think it was later that unions actually began to have the power to stand up for the rights of
workers in a substantial way, but had it not been for the trust busters, their movement
might never have gained strength.

Conservatives find the "nanny state" a favorite target when they complain about the
abundance of rules and regulations that they see abridging their own freedom to do as
they wish. But what started this move toward regulation were the abuses that were going
unchecked—unfettered monopolies, workers treated as chattel, food unfit for human
consumption, opium sold as a "cure"for alcoholism, and so on and on. Some good and
some bad consequences came from this new concern to protect citizens from the excesses
of business.

Laws guaranteeing better physical working conditions came about as a result of terrible
fires and other disasters in buildings that were totally unregulated. But prohibition also
came from the same kind of concern, even though it was enacted as an amendment to the
Constitution. But this isn't a historical treatise: it's about patriotism.

What I am most proud of my country about is its ability to correct itself when it's on the
wrong path. I don't think anyone could deny the devastation alcoholism creates in
America, but we as a people decided that its devastation did not justify the draconian rule
of prohibition. Similarly, though it took a hundred years, we recognized the evils of laws
and practices that restricted the rights of some citizens. Over the protestations of some
patriots like Barry Goldwater, the Civil Rights and Voting Rights acts were passed in
1964 and 1965. Perhaps there are some who'd like to go back to Jim Crow days, but the
die is now cast.

In the days prior to World War 2, the prevailing sentiment in the US favored isolationism
and staying out of the wars of Europe and Asia. FDR and other leaders recognized the
impossibility of neutrality, and Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor didn't produce the results
they hoped for. Although we were well along in our preparations for war by December of
1941, the Japanese attack led the US to incredibly swift and decisive action. It would be
foolish to say that America alone won that war, but equally foolish to suggest that our
entry didn't change the world in a fundamental way. I am proud of America because we
cast aside our personal concerns to a degree that's almost impossible to understand unless
you were there. As Stephen Ambrose put it (paraphrasing here), it was the citizen
soldiers of America who just wanted to get the job done and go back to their real lives.
They succeeded against two of the best-equipped and trained armies in the world, to a
considerable extent because they were intolerant of both chicken shit and bull shit.

Many on the right consider conscription to be involuntary servitude and call it
unconstitutional. Most of them fail to realize the ways in which "The War" gave us
common cause and a determination to get the job done and over with. But when the War
morphed into the Cold War, most recognized that the job wasn't over yet. Despite
aberrations like the McCarthy era and the desires of some military leaders to use The
Bomb, we managed (with a lot of help from the USSR, actually) to avoid a war where
this atrocious weapon was used. I don't think there's been another time in human history
when a weapon of mass destruction was developed, even perfected, and not used.

Again, what I and most liberals see as cause for pride in our country in all of this was that
we managed to come through these and the other crises, large and small, that we have to
face, and do the right thing in however a stumbling and imperfect a manner.

The funny thing is that that's what human life is like. We start with high goals and
aspirations and inevitably find that we screw things up. But if we're diligent and lucky,
most of us find ways to muddle through and live decent lives. Likewise, despite
America's repeated mistakes, it's now the oldest constitutional republic in the world, and
I am so proud of that that I could pop the buttons off my shirt—if I weren't wearing a tee
shirt.

For me, the outward symbols of patriotism—flying the flag, singing the national anthem,
believing that my country is better than any other country "just because", not admitting
problems—these are actually irrelevant to real patriotism. Instead, I see it as the ability to
love the country enough to be able to criticize it, and to work for its correction and
betterment. Working for betterment means being able to criticize and to propose
alternative solutions, something conservative patriots seem to despise. Every single
person I know has flaws and defects; every single nation in the world has flaws and
defects. Real patriotism consists in being willing to work hard to correct those defects.
That's a job that will never be complete, but we can by God try.

If you think I hate America after my writing this, then I don't think we're gonna find
much of a base for real conversation.

[Leslie]

Ya should be bloggin', brother. :thumbsup:

[micfranklin]

Well thought out BL.

To me though, patriotism is loving your country but at the same time knowing when right is right and wrong is wrong. Knowing that some things just don't equate to what this country is about.

[IndieVisible]

Well said Buck, and if I may add some points from my own perspective. What I love about America is despite our differences in real hard times we can usually put aside these differences and work for a common goal. Like I believe this energy and fuel crisis will be resolved in a bipartisan manor!

I agree with almost every thing Buck said but this,

opium does "cure" alcoholism Buck!

[AnnEsthesia]

I also will note that some of the biggest patriots of our country have been the people who saw problems with the status quo and shouted about it until it changed, even if it meant risking life, family and home. How that became perverted into patriotism being never questioning the status quo is beyond me.

[Milton Bradley]

I think many confuse "love of country" with respect for the Constitutional process. That's where they lose me. I'm a stickler for little details like requiring the people who create the laws to observe the laws.


Since both Democrats, and Republicans have long records of trampling the Constitution, and the constitutional process, I can't really agree that many of you are true patriots.


Those willing to subvert constitutional law have no valid claim on patriotism, only nationalism. Patriotism is reserved for us hard core few, true to the founding ideals of this nation.


:grrrr:

[IndieVisible]

I think many confuse "love of country" with respect for the Constitutional process. That's where they lose me. I'm a stickler for little details like requiring the people who create the laws to observe the laws.


Since both Democrats, and Republicans have long records of trampling the Constitution, and the constitutional process, I can't really agree that many of you are true patriots.


Those willing to subvert constitutional law have no valid claim on patriotism, only nationalism. Patriotism is reserved for us hard core few, true to the founding ideals of this nation.


:grrrr:

Oh rubbish. Who are you to question any one's patriotism? Many of those who you would question their patriotism served in the military, would die defending our nation. Many more have died defending our nation so you can piss and moan about the constitution not being followed to your liking or interpretation and question who is a patriot. I think life is more then black and white like you see it. I think you owe each of us a apology.

[Leslie]

Oh rubbish. Who are you to question any one's patriotism? Many of those who you would question their patriotism served in the military, would die defending our nation. Many more have died defending our nation so you can piss and moan about the constitution not being followed to your liking or interpretation and question who is a patriot. I think life is more then black and white like you see it. I think you owe each of us a apology.


Again, I agree with you, well said, Indie.

[Milton Bradley]

Oh rubbish. Who are you to question any one's patriotism? Many of those who you would question their patriotism served in the military, would die defending our nation. Many more have died defending our nation so you can piss and moan about the constitution not being followed to your liking or interpretation and question who is a patriot. I think life is more then black and white like you see it. I think you owe each of us a apology.


Don't hold your breath. I don't intend to appologize for holding an opinion different than yours.


Sorry, but in the case of law, it is a black, or white process, and all those shades of grey are criminal. All those shades of grey have lead us into this abyss. All those shades of grey are transgressions against country, and countrymen.


Try to answer the question in my signature.

[Milton Bradley]

Let me attempt to be more precise, so there is no miscommunication here.


Oh rubbish. Who are you to question any one's patriotism?


I am a citizen with free speech whos rights are protected by a legal conrtact called the Constitution of the united States.


However, I'm not sure I'm questioning ones patriotism as much as ones word definition skills.


pa·tri·ot /ˈpeɪtriət, -ˌɒt or, especially Brit., ˈpætriət/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pey-tree-uht, -ot or, especially Brit., pa-tree-uht] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion.
2. a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, esp. of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.



Many of those who you would question their patriotism served in the military, would die defending our nation. Many more have died defending our nation so you can piss and moan about the constitution not being followed to your liking or interpretation and question who is a patriot. I think life is more then black and white like you see it. I think you owe each of us a apology.


The Constitution is clear about original intent, and laws that are repugnant to it, yet the two big established parties create, and pass laws that are repugnant to the Constitution, often ignoring the legal process in the process.


I align with both definitions given above. Do you? Can you really proclaim that you vote to maintain the integrity of our countries interests?

[IndieVisible]

Let me attempt to be more precise, so there is no miscommunication here.

I am a citizen with free speech whos rights are protected by a legal conrtact called the Constitution of the united States.


However, I'm not sure I'm questioning ones patriotism as much as ones word definition skills.

How about you keep your BS straight first? You not only questioned our patriotism but made yourself sound like a elitist snob...

I think many confuse "love of country" with respect for the Constitutional process. ....

Since both Democrats, and Republicans have long records of trampling the Constitution, and the constitutional process, I can't really agree that many of you are true patriots.


Those willing to subvert constitutional law have no valid claim on patriotism, only nationalism. Patriotism is reserved for us hard core few, true to the founding ideals of this nation.



Of course I too am big on free speech and would defend any one's right to free speech, no matter how much BS it included.

[potter]

Good post Buck. :clapper:

"For me, the outward symbols of patriotism—flying the flag, singing the national anthem,
believing that my country is better than any other country "just because", not admitting
problems—these are actually irrelevant to real patriotism. Instead, I see it as the ability to
love the country enough to be able to criticize it, and to work for its correction and
betterment."

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[slappy]

However, I'm not sure I'm questioning ones patriotism as much as ones word definition skills.

pa·tri·ot /ˈpeɪtriət, -ˌɒt or, especially Brit., ˈpætriət/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pey-tree-uht, -ot or, especially Brit., pa-tree-uht] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion.
2. a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, esp. of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.


Would you mind citing your source for definition 2? Neither Merriam-Webster nor Oxford agree with you on that one.

[Osborn F. Enready]

I agree with Milton 100%.

[IndieVisible]

I agree with Milton 100%.

No surprise!

[Milton Bradley]

Would you mind citing your source for definition 2? Neither Merriam-Webster nor Oxford agree with you on that one.


http://dictionary.reference.com/

[IndieVisible]

Patriotism: devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty.

From your source,
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/patriotism

Patriot:
1. a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion.
2. a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, esp. of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.
3. (initial capital letter) Military. a U.S. Army antiaircraft missile with a range of 37 mi. (60 km) and a 200-lb. (90 kg) warhead, launched from a tracked vehicle with radar and computer guidance and fire control.

from your source (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/patriot).

your definition is NUMBER 2, ours is NUMBER 1

number 3 is: a U.S. Army antiaircraft missile with a range of 37 mi. (60 km) and a 200-lb. (90 kg) warhead, launched from a tracked vehicle with radar and computer guidance and fire control.

What some people will do to question peoples patriotism! :madlaugh:

[NortheastCynic]

I've never understood the concept of patriotism. How can one 'love' a country? What does that mean? I think the Constitution is the greatest document ever written, does that count? I think if America adhered to the values under which it was supposed to governed, the country would be in better shape. I respect [and thank] those who have served int eh military. But 'love' the country? How the Hell can I do that? There are 300,000,000 Americans. A large percentage of them are morons. A large percentage are assholes. Some percentage are criminals. Am I to 'love' them?

As I said, I don't get it. I love the ideals that America was founded under...That's as much as I can say.

'Patriotism', in my view, is a political buzzword.

-NC

[Buck Laser]

I've never understood the concept of patriotism. How can one 'love' a country? What does that mean? I think the Constitution is the greatest document ever written, does that count? I think if America adhered to the values under which it was supposed to governed, the country would be in better shape. I respect [and thank] those who have served int eh military. But 'love' the country? How the Hell can I do that? There are 300,000,000 Americans. A large percentage of them are morons. A large percentage are assholes. Some percentage are criminals. Am I to 'love' them?

As I said, I don't get it. I love the ideals that America was founded under...That's as much as I can say.

'Patriotism', in my view, is a political buzzword.

-NC
I agree. But I get Goddamned sick and tired of certain conservatives saying that all liberals "hate America." Or, as one says, that we "hate the military." I do love my country, and I was never prouder of it than the seven years I put into working for the War On Poverty. I helped get funds and guidance to local community organizations of poor people so they'd have a chance to organize to achieve their goals in the same way middle class people do. I had the feeling that I was actually doing something concrete and specific, and that I was representing my country in a good-faith attempt to right some very old wrongs.

It wasn't the success we hoped it would be. But it wasn't the dismal failure conservatives love to paint it, either. Some pretty positive things came out of it--one unanticipated consequence was the passage of Open Meetings laws around the country, forbidding public organizations from meeting in secret. That was a very common practice in the 60s. When zoning decisions and such were made, poor people were always the last to find out. The War on Poverty started the ball rolling with that.

So NC, I see patriotism as a very positive and concrete thing. I did a lot more good during my seven years in the War On Poverty than I did during three years as a soldier. I consider my work now to help get Obama elected to be an act of patriotism. I know some will disagree, but it's a free country. Some people who live here don't seem to have quite figured that out yet.

[sam]

Oh rubbish. Who are you to question any one's patriotism? Many of those who you would question their patriotism served in the military, would die defending our nation. Many more have died defending our nation so you can piss and moan about the constitution not being followed to your liking or interpretation and question who is a patriot. I think life is more then black and white like you see it. I think you owe each of us a apology.

[sam]

I agree with you Indie; somewhere along the road, you were deemed unpatriotic if you dare question the actions of the government. To me, literally nothing in life is black and white; and if you live that kind of world, then it is a severely limited version.


Instead, I see it as the ability to
love the country enough to be able to criticize it, and to work for its correction and
betterment."

Had it not been for those willing to risk losing their own lives to preserve what was clearly unjust, (i.e. the Civil rights movement) took more courage than those who love to say "Right or Wrong, Love it or Leave it" and not act at all except in rhetoric.

Unfortunately, we seem to have swung to far left in the pendulum; when atrocities occur and the felon is freed on a technicality or posts bail and and manages to kill again even before his offense comes to trial.

Everyone is entitled to not only have but voice their opionions. But when that opinion escalates into brutality and death, and is sanctioned by "but look at how tragic his life was as child" then I lose all patience.

As a country, from the president on down, we seem to have lost a critical sense of personal accountability. It is always someone elses fault. I dont buy that. All mentally capable adults are accountable for their actions, regardless of their past.

To expect less is to nothing less than turning this country into a country of whiners
and the mentality that there is always some excuse to justify our actions, whithout taking accountability for them.

[IndieVisible]

I see patriotism from the Rs and Ds and they do acknowledge each other as patriots despite their platform differences. The LP seem to think they have a exclusive hold on patriotism and the rest of us are the ones confused. Thankfully the vast majority of Americans, Independents, Republicans, Democrats, the mainstream population that is, have not embraced the LP. Despite bragging they are the third largest party, what does that mean exactly? Well in my home NYS that means they have about 900 registered members. I guess we just don't have that many *real* patriots in NYS, at least that must be what the LP must think.

Certainly life is NOT as black and white as the LP believe it is. I see many colors and guess what? There are many, many patriots here in America! I'm so glad this came out. Look who the real elitists are! :lmao:

[NortheastCynic]

I agree. But I get Goddamned sick and tired of certain conservatives saying that all liberals "hate America." Or, as one says, that we "hate the military." I do love my country, and I was never prouder of it than the seven years I put into working for the War On Poverty. I helped get funds and guidance to local community organizations of poor people so they'd have a chance to organize to achieve their goals in the same way middle class people do. I had the feeling that I was actually doing something concrete and specific, and that I was representing my country in a good-faith attempt to right some very old wrongs.

It wasn't the success we hoped it would be. But it wasn't the dismal failure conservatives love to paint it, either. Some pretty positive things came out of it--one unanticipated consequence was the passage of Open Meetings laws around the country, forbidding public organizations from meeting in secret. That was a very common practice in the 60s. When zoning decisions and such were made, poor people were always the last to find out. The War on Poverty started the ball rolling with that.

So NC, I see patriotism as a very positive and concrete thing. I did a lot more good during my seven years in the War On Poverty than I did during three years as a soldier. I consider my work now to help get Obama elected to be an act of patriotism. I know some will disagree, but it's a free country. Some people who live here don't seem to have quite figured that out yet.
Buck, I commend anyone who does anything that they see as a positive for their country. Your work for America should be commended, period. That having been said, 'patriotic' is a term with which I am uncomfortable. So I will say that your activism is to be commended and admirable, but again, I don't understand the meaning of 'patriotic' fully enough to use it.

-NC

[Milton Bradley]

I see patriotism from the Rs and Ds and they do acknowledge each other as patriots despite their platform differences. The LP seem to think they have a exclusive hold on patriotism and the rest of us are the ones confused. Thankfully the vast majority of Americans, Independents, Republicans, Democrats, the mainstream population that is, have not embraced the LP. Despite bragging they are the third largest party, what does that mean exactly? Well in my home NYS that means they have about 900 registered members. I guess we just don't have that many *real* patriots in NYS, at least that must be what the LP must think.

Certainly life is NOT as black and white as the LP believe it is. I see many colors and guess what? There are many, many patriots here in America! I'm so glad this came out. Look who the real elitists are! :lmao:


This sounds like the rantings of a worried man.


I expect you have every right to be worried though, because I think that groundswell of support is becoming evident as the two big parties lies become more egregious, and pernicious. These blatant new lies seem to be more obvious, and visible as well.


Oh well, they can't fool all of the people, all of the time.

:nana:

[Milton Bradley]

Buck, I commend anyone who does anything that they see as a positive for their country. Your work for America should be commended, period. That having been said, 'patriotic' is a term with which I am uncomfortable. So I will say that your activism is to be commended and admirable, but again, I don't understand the meaning of 'patriotic' fully enough to use it.

-NC


I think most people confuse the word with nationalist, and that's the rub. Patriot has a nice buzz word ring to it, where as being called "nationalist" evolks memories of some of that propoganda most of us have been spoon fed about our "enemies".


I understand my opinion will offend some, but tough cookies. I'm not going to change my opinion just to appease those who disagree.

[IndieVisible]

This sounds like the rantings of a worried man.


I expect you have every right to be worried though, because I think that groundswell of support is becoming evident as the two big parties lies become more egregious, and pernicious. These blatant new lies seem to be more obvious, and visible as well.


Oh well, they can't fool all of the people, all of the time.

:nana:

Me worried about the LP? :madlaugh:

Please too funny!

Dream on! How many fucking years have the LP tried to make a dent in NYS? And all they can muster up state wide is around 900 members?

Pretty freaking funny!

[Osborn F. Enready]

"Republic" can be defined.
"Unalienable" can be defined.
"LIMITED" can be defined.

A lot of the people who claim to be patriots have a lot of trouble with the very things that MADE the USA what it was, its very foundation.....unalienable rights of the people as individuals, held against the government and all other men, the very rights Republicans and Democrats have been hacking away at for years to turn you all against one another in the classic play of war.... dividing the enemy. The enemy of the parties is you the people, and the wedge is every pet issue a "special intrest" group can muster support for in the name of "helping our fellow citizen" by beating them with the cudgel of government force, making anything and everything a "taxworthy" cause. They have succeeded in turning you against one another, they have succeeded in making you want to use law as a cudgel against your fellow citizens based on arbitrary BS in total ignorance of the very rights that would be the INSPIRATION of a true patriot.

I don't think most of you even have a clue how many taxes the AVERAGE American pays every single day of their life, on practically every transaction they make.

Where is accountability? If the average "joe" doesn't know how much is being taken from him, or where its going, where in the hell does accountability come from?

The democrats and republicans have suckered the American people into selling out their currency, then their Constitutional process, then their bill of rights, and finally, now, your jobs, your saving and your future.

By all means though... keep calling yourself patriots, speaking pretty words, twiddling your thumbs and navel gazing as Rome burns around you...... I'm sure you've thought this through.

A couple quotes to think on while that all sinks in.... or your knee jerks....

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
-Samuel Adams, speech at the Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776.

(Obviously he wouldn't have apologized for questioning ones patriotism)

“If a nation values anything more than freedom, it will lose its freedom, and the irony of it is that if it is comfort or money that it values more, it will lose that too.”
-W. Somerset Maugham

“The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, self-appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny.”
-James Madison, Federalist Papers #47

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.''
-Thomas Jefferson

“I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it.”
-Benjamin Franklin

"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example.''
-Mark Twain

“I can do any Goddamned thing I want. I'm President of the United States. I take care of my friends and I fuck with my enemies. That's the way it is. Anybody who doesn't like it can take a hike.”
-Bill Clinton, in a White House staff meeting, as reported by Capitol Hill Blue's Doug Thompson in his column on 1999-Apr-8, regarding sicking the IRS on Ken Starr

“If the personal freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution inhibit the government's ability to govern the people, we should look to limit those guarantees.”
-President Bill Clinton, August 12, 1993

“There ought to be limits to freedom. We're aware of the site, and this guy is just a garbage man.”
-George W. Bush, commenting on the website www.gwbush.com

“If this were a dictatorship, things would be a lot simpler. As long as I was the dictator. Heh heh heh.”
-George W. Bush, 2000-Dec-18, in Washington DC, on the occasion of a public appearance with Democratic Congressional leaders

“the purpose of government is to reign in the rights of the people”
-Bill Clinton during an interview on MTV in 1993

“the people I put in jail have more honor than the top administration in this organization.”
-Bob Hoffman, ATF agent, to Mike Wallace, on 60 Minutes, 1993-Jan

“I took an oath. And the thing that I find totally abhorrent and disgusting is these higher-level people took that same oath and they violate the basic principles and tenets of the Constitution and the laws and simple ethics and morality.”
-Lou Tomasello, ATF agent, to Mike Wallace, on 60 Minutes, 1993-Jan

“Trampled upon the Second Amendment [...] Offended the Fourth Amendment [...] Ignored the Fifth Amendment”
-Senate Subcommittee on the Constitution, 1982, findings regarding the ATF


:dizzy::dizzy::dizzy::sick:

No wonder Republicans and Democrats don't want us questioning their patriotism..... they forgot what it was.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Another easier way to say the above?

Republicans want freedom for those who think like they do, and intend to use force against those who don't.

Democrats want freedom for those who think like they do, and intend to use force against those who don't.

Libertarian principles (not party) argue for the freedom of all men, and tolerance for those who don't think like you do, and intend to use force against only those who would use force to take that freedom away.

Which of the above would even deserve loyalty of a free man, much less a buzzword like "patriotism"?

[IndieVisible]

Another easier way to say the above?

Republicans want freedom for those who think like they do, and intend to use force against those who don't.

Democrats want freedom for those who think like they do, and intend to use force against those who don't.

Libertarian principles (not party) argue for the freedom of all men, and tolerance for those who don't think like you do, and intend to use force against only those who would use force to take that freedom away.

Which of the above would even deserve loyalty of a free man, much less a buzzword like "patriotism"?

I could never be a Libertarian. Too damn cheap. Bottom line is wallet, little or no regards to the poor or less fortunate even less then Republicans who at least give a little.

Your principlas may sound good to you, but in practice fail. There is more needed then just freedom, tho thats a great place to start! We also need means for every one to excersize those freedom and rights, otherwise they only benefit the fortunate ones.

[moses2792796]

I could never be a Libertarian. Too damn cheap. Bottom line is wallet, little or no regards to the poor or less fortunate even less then Republicans who at least give a little.

Your principlas may sound good to you, but in practice fail. There is more needed then just freedom, tho thats a great place to start! We also need means for every one to excersize those freedom and rights, otherwise they only benefit the fortunate ones.

Completely wrong, libertarianism allows for the failures and parasites in society to be weeded out, no one is going to help you if you can't help yourself. This is the way to a healthier society, America and Europe breed useless people because they insist on supporting them out of some misguided notion that it makes them morally superior.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Indie said:
I could never be a Libertarian. Too damn cheap. Bottom line is wallet, little or no regards to the poor or less fortunate even less then Republicans who at least give a little.

Strawman... what does charity have to do with protecting individual freedom?
Are you saying Libertarian principled people don't donate time, money or material to charity?

Indie said:
Your principlas may sound good to you, but in practice fail.

Again, strawman. No evidence, yet an attempt at an excuse to "rationalize" voting for those who use force against those who don't think like them.

Indie said:
There is more needed then just freedom, tho thats a great place to start!

Opinion, unvalidiated at that.

Indie said:
We also need means for every one to excersize those freedom and rights, otherwise they only benefit the fortunate ones.

Again, classism based argument, and an attempt to use force against the rich in the name of the poor.... not coincidentally, just like the people you love to hate... those who are rich and attempt to use force against the poor.

[IndieVisible]

Strawman... what does charity have to do with protecting individual freedom?
Are you saying Libertarian principled people don't donate time, money or material to charity?



Again, strawman. No evidence, yet an attempt at an excuse to "rationalize" voting for those who use force against those who don't think like them.



Opinion, unvalidiated at that.



Again, classism based argument, and an attempt to use force against the rich in the name of the poor.... not coincidentally, just like the people you love to hate... those who are rich and attempt to use force against the poor.

Yup just my opinions, same value as yours. And I remind you, that yours are unvalidated too as there never was a LP President.

Just two different opinions except mine is shared by more Americans otherwise your opinion might be validated as we would have seen a LP president by now. I still do not see a LP candidate yet running for President lol.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Indie said:
Yup just my opinions, same value as yours. And I remind you, that yours are unvalidated too as there never was a LP President.

Wrong. George Washington was a poster boy for libertarian principles.... he just wasn't a member of the party since the party didn't exist at that time.....

Indie said:
Just two different opinions except mine is shared by more Americans otherwise your opinion might be validated as we would have seen a LP president by now. I still do not see a LP candidate yet running for President lol.

Ignorance begets sheeple, and sheeple beget partisan evil.

You partisans have been played for the fools you are, and don't even know it yet.

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
-Ben Franklin

“Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.”
-Daniel Webster

“It only stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there's service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master.”
-Ayn Rand

“One of the shrewdest ways for human predators to conquer their stronger victims is to steadily convince them with propaganda that they're still free...”
-Dr. N.A. Scott

“None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free.”
-Johann Von Goethe

“Evil requires the sanction of the victim.”
-Ayn Rand

“It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.”
-Voltaire

“Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?”
-Patrick Henry

“The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves.”
-Dresden James

“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed -- and thus clamorous to be led to safety -- by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”
-H.L. Mencken

“Facts must be distorted, relevant circumstances concealed, and a picture presented which by its crude coloring will persuade the ignorant people that their Government is blameless, their cause is righteous, and that the indisputable wickedness of the enemy is beyond question.
A moment's reflection would tell any reasonable person that such obvious bias cannot possibly represent the truth. But the moment's reflection is not allowed; lies are circulated with great rapidity. The unthinking mass accept them and by their excitement sway the rest.
The amount of rubbish and humbug that pass under the name of patriotism in wartime in all countries is sufficient to make decent people blush when they are subsequently disillusioned.”
-Arthur Ponsonby, Falsehood in Wartime, 1928

[moses2792796]

What you're forgetting Osborn, is that the idea of a tradition, even a profane one like that of America, is completely foreign and even absurd to modern people. These people are those who are indoctrinated into Darwinism, which they apply to politics. The idea of progress, whilst it may not be as prominent as it once was, still permeates modern thought, and so any possibility of a stable tradition is ignored. I suggest also that rather than clinging to a relatively recent tradition, you look further to the past to civilisations that were Traditional in the proper sense of the word. This means that they had a genuinely spiritual centre, an elite who possessed knowledge beyond what is attainable for modern people. This may sound like mythology to some, but the truth is there for those who look. An author called Rene Guenon wrote several books which may be helpful for this subject, "The Crisis of the Modern World" and "The Reign of Quantity" are a good place to start.

[Milton Bradley]

What you're forgetting Osborn, is that the idea of a tradition, even a profane one like that of America, is completely foreign and even absurd to modern people. These people are those who are indoctrinated into Darwinism, which they apply to politics. The idea of progress, whilst it may not be as prominent as it once was, still permeates modern thought, and so any possibility of a stable tradition is ignored. I suggest also that rather than clinging to a relatively recent tradition, you look further to the past to civilisations that were Traditional in the proper sense of the word. This means that they had a genuinely spiritual centre, an elite who possessed knowledge beyond what is attainable for modern people. This may sound like mythology to some, but the truth is there for those who look. An author called Rene Guenon wrote several books which may be helpful for this subject, "The Crisis of the Modern World" and "The Reign of Quantity" are a good place to start.


While that sounds nice on it's face, are you really sugesting that a Rand fan take advice from somebody who quotes Kant in their signature?

[moses2792796]

While that sounds nice on it's face, are you really sugesting that a Rand fan take advice from somebody who quotes Kant in their signature?

Lol, if it makes you feel better I don't appreaciate the works of Kant at all, or any modern philosophy for that matter, for true wisdom turn to the Greeks, or the Orientals. I just thought that quote would be suitable for this forum seeings as so many people seem obsessed with a rather ill-defined 'freedom', a lovely word no doubt but I suspect most of its meaning has long been forgotten.

[IndieVisible]

Ignorance begets sheeple, and sheeple beget partisan evil.

You partisans have been played for the fools you are, and don't even know it yet.

Since I'm still new here and trying to learn the forum AUP which I find difficult at times. I have a question. Not that I am complaining, but I just want to know so I can play by same rules. Some one explain to me how this is not getting personal or a attack?

Just want to be on same page :)

[Osborn F. Enready]

Moses said:
What you're forgetting Osborn, is that the idea of a tradition, even a profane one like that of America, is completely foreign and even absurd to modern people.

I tend to disagree somewhat, but I see plenty of what you speak in many people today.

Moses said:
These people are those who are indoctrinated into Darwinism, which they apply to politics. The idea of progress, whilst it may not be as prominent as it once was, still permeates modern thought, and so any possibility of a stable tradition is ignored. I suggest also that rather than clinging to a relatively recent tradition, you look further to the past to civilisations that were Traditional in the proper sense of the word. This means that they had a genuinely spiritual centre, an elite who possessed knowledge beyond what is attainable for modern people.

Uh, no... this is where we completely disagree. In those times, the reason that knowledge wasn't attainable was simply due to force, a class or caste system and elitism.

The spiritual center of the United States is based on the revolutionary concept of self-government, where each individual held unalienable rights against the government and all people, sacred from infringement.

I am not sure of it as I don't know you that well, but I think what you call a soul, I call a self.

Moses said:
This may sound like mythology to some, but the truth is there for those who look. An author called Rene Guenon wrote several books which may be helpful for this subject, "The Crisis of the Modern World" and "The Reign of Quantity" are a good place to start.

I am not saying I see no value in what you say, but I think we are in large part in disagreement on the relevance to the United States.

The only peace I seek is the peace to live as I see fit, on the contractually established basis that I will not infringe on the rights of others until they initiate force against me.

[Milton Bradley]

Lol, if it makes you feel better I don't appreaciate the works of Kant at all, or any modern philosophy for that matter, for true wisdom turn to the Greeks, or the Orientals. I just thought that quote would be suitable for this forum seeings as so many people seem obsessed with a rather ill-defined 'freedom', a lovely word no doubt but I suspect most of its meaning has long been forgotten.


Whew!


I thought your words betrayed the signature line, but with so many confused people posting to these forums, it's often better to assume the worst.


:evil:

[Osborn F. Enready]

Indie said:
Since I'm still new here and trying to learn the forum AUP which I find difficult at times. I have a question. Not that I am complaining, but I just want to know so I can play by same rules. Some one explain to me how this is not getting personal or a attack?

Just want to be on same page

Report me if you feel it necessary Indie.

Are you a partisan? If so, it may be to some construed as a personal attack.

I was addressing "You Partisans"... in the crowd in general, but if the shoe fits and the fit is uncomfortable....

[IndieVisible]

Report me if you feel it necessary Indie.

Are you a partisan? If so, it may be to some construed as a personal attack.

I was addressing "You Partisans"... in the crowd in general, but if the shoe fits and the fit is uncomfortable....

hey I really don't care. I just want to know what we define as insults and attacks thats all. It's still unclear to me. I was politely warned for saying less then this so you can understand my curiosity. My way would be no holds bar except threats. I just want to exercise the same priviledges with out going over the line. That's all.

[Milton Bradley]

I just want to exercise the same priviledges with out going over the line. That's all.


LOL


Is he "excercising a privilige", or taking a risk?


I suspect the latter, personally.

[IndieVisible]

LOL


Is he "excercising a privilige", or taking a risk?


I suspect the latter, personally.

Who are you talking to? Me, some one else or yourself?

[Milton Bradley]

Who are you talking to? Me, some one else or yourself?


Well, if you didn't get it, I guess I'm talking to everybody, but you. :lmao:


My point was that he was not excercising a privilege, but taking a risk. If the Moderators think that crosses a line, they'll take action. If you think it crossed a line, report it.

[IndieVisible]

Well, if you didn't get it, I guess I'm talking to everybody, but you. :lmao:


My point was that he was not excercising a privilege, but taking a risk. If the Moderators think that crosses a line, they'll take action. If you think it crossed a line, report it.

Do you have some thing to add to this thread other then sarcasm and insults or is that about all for now?

[Milton Bradley]

Do you have some thing to add to this thread other then sarcasm and insults or is that about all for now?


I clearly see the sarcasm in that post, but I fail to see any insults.


Thin skin?