President Lifts Drilling Ban

[DamnYankee]

In another push to deal with soaring gas prices, President Bush on Monday will lift an executive ban on offshore drilling that his stood since his father was president. But the move, by itself, will do nothing unless Congress acts as well.

The president plans to officially lift the ban and then explain his actions in a Rose Garden statement, White House press secretary Dana Perino said.

There are two prohibitions on offshore drilling, one imposed by Congress and another by executive order signed by former President Bush in 1990. The current president, trying to ease market tensions and boost supply, called last month for Congress to lift its prohibition before he did so himself.

But Perino said Bush no longer wants to wait. She pinned blame on the leaders of the Democratic Congress, noting that no action has been taken on this issue.

"They haven't even held a single hearing," Perino said. "So we are going to move forward, and hopefully that will spur action by the Congress."

Asked if Bush's action alone will lead to more oil drilling, Perino said, "In terms of allowing more exploration to go forward? No, it does not."

The president, in his final months of office, has responded to record gas-prices with a series of proposals, including more oil exploration. None would have immediate impact on prices at the pump, according to White House officials, who say there is no quick fix. But starting action now would help, they say.

Bush's proposal echoes a call by Republican presidential candidate, Sen. John McCain, to open the Continental Shelf for exploration.

Congressional Democrats have rejected the push to lift the drilling moratorium, accusing the president of hoping the U.S. can drill its way out a problem.

Bush says offshore drilling could yield up to 18 billion barrels of oil over time, although it would take years for production to start. Bush also says offshore drilling would take pressure off prices over time. In addition, the president has proposed opening the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge for drilling, lifting restrictions on oil shale leasing in the Green River Basin of Colorado, Utah and Wyoming and easing the regulatory process to expand oil refining capacity.

Congressional Democrats, joined by some GOP lawmakers from coastal states, have opposed lifting the prohibition that has barred energy companies from waters along both the East and West coasts and in the eastern Gulf of Mexico. A succession of presidents, from Bush's father _ George H.W. Bush _ to Bill Clinton, have sided against drilling in these waters, as has Congress each year for 27 years. Their goal has to been to protect beaches and coastal states' tourism economies.

I haven't heard what the leftists in congress are going to do other than what they are already doing. Which is not a damn thing.

www.townhall.com/news/us/2008/07/14/bush_to_lift_executive_ban_on_offshore_drilling

[Six]

I haven't heard what the leftists in congress are going to do other than what they are already doing. Which is not a damn thing.

www.townhall.com/news/us/2008/07/14/bush_to_lift_executive_ban_on_offshore_drilling

Exactly and for those who say this will have no effect let me point out that part of the reason gas prices are where they are are because of speculation. A commitment to further exploration by the President and the Congress would have instantaneous effects.

Also, the Dem's don't wan't to see anything done about the gas prices until a Democrat is in office. So look forward to the "people's respresentives" to stand in the way of anything that is proposed by this administration that would lower prices.

[apdst]

Good! Let's go to work.

[Alonzo]

Asked if Bush's action alone will lead to more oil drilling, Perino said, "In terms of allowing more exploration to go forward? No, it does not."

Guess that's fitting for this president.

No need to fuck up the environment for a band aid.

[apdst]

No need to fuck up the environment for a band aid

How is drilling going to fuck up the environment? "Be afraid! Be very afraid!"

There have been hundreds of thousands of wells drilled in this country. Is the environment fucked up now?

[preservanation]

It's just a shame we have to get to this point in order for people to come to their senses.
This whole gas price crisis could have been avoided in the first place if reason had been listened to decades ago.
Instead, all we got was demonized, demagoguery, and impugned as greedy rightwing fuzzy bunny killers.

I hate to say we told you so...but....we did.
Better late than never.
Good job Bush...finally.

[Six]

How is drilling going to fuck up the environment? "Be afraid! Be very afraid!"

There have been hundreds of thousands of wells drilled in this country. Is the environment fucked up now?

It's only fucked up if you have live off the coast of Cali or New England and don't like the rigs muking up your view. In Texas, we really don't seem to mind to much.

[apdst]

It's only fucked up if you have live off the coast of Cali or New England and don't like the rigs muking up your view. In Texas, we really don't seem to mind to much.

You're right. There's probably fewer people vacationing in Galveston this summer, but it's because of high ass gas prices, not because of offshore platforms.

[NIOSA]

About time too that Bush lifted that EO.
I think the Dems might have a struggle opposing what Bush is doing.
If congress would go along with drilling, it might scare OPEC into acting, producing more/lowering prices. If not, well then, we have the goods & should go after the oil. China is.

[DamnYankee]

The California coastal counties are big time rich leftist controlled part of the state.

[apdst]

I think the Dems might have a struggle opposing what Bush is doing.

The Dems will wind up looking like assholes if they fight Bush on this.

[NIOSA]

The Dems will wind up looking like assholes if they fight Bush on this.

Ohhh darlin, they looked like a$$'s long before this. ;)

[Alonzo]

How is drilling going to fuck up the environment? "Be afraid! Be very afraid!"

There have been hundreds of thousands of wells drilled in this country. Is the environment fucked up now?

Even so, says Clusen, there are 300 to 500 spills every year, a number which will grow with increased production.

"And once you have a spill, you are pretty much screwed," NOAA's Short said. That's because oil spreads on water at a rate of one-half a football field per second. Recovery can take decades.

After 20 years of natural weathering, Prince William Sound — the area affected by the Exxon-Valdez spill — appears completely recovered to the casual observer, said Short, but animals high up on the food chain are just now starting to re-colonize.

Even a perfectly functioning oil well is a cause of concern due to "produced water," explained Short.

Produced water — which rises with oil and contains environmental toxins such as polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH) — is usually tossed overboard. At high concentrations, the contaminants are lethal to marine life. At lower concentrations, according to lab experiments, they can cause birth defects, impaired growth and skewed sex ratios.

http://www.livescience.com/environment/080625-oil-drilling.html

[BoogyMan]

Zo, it is my personal view that we truly need to increase production wherever and whenever we can. With the dollar at the current level I don't see our fuel cost burden getting any easier until we make some strides in newer production as well as a huge increase in our search for alternate forms of energy. I don't see why we cannot have both.

[apdst]

After 20 years of natural weathering, Prince William Sound — the area affected by the Exxon-Valdez spill — appears completely recovered to the casual observer, said Short, but animals high up on the food chain are just now starting to re-colonize.

This is a ship wreck, dude. It ain't got nothin' to do with drilling a well. You would rather keep shipping oil from overseas, aboard ships, than drill for our own oil?

Have you ever visited a well location? I mean, no shit. Have you?

There's no oil sludge washing up on GOM beaches.

[NortheastCynic]

Finally I have a chance to say, "good move, Mr. President".

Good move.

-NC

[AlanC]

This is only the first of many long overdo good moves necessary to move congress. That is the real ship that has run aground.

[DamnYankee]

Zo, it's always going to be something. Some excuse, some problem, some something, when it comes to drilling for oil so we can finally get off of foreign oil. Meanwhile the poor and middle class are taking it in the butt every time they pull up to the pumps or go shopping for food. Or clothes.

This congress must act on drilling, and act now. It's that simple. Nothing says we cannot develop technologies for alternative fuels or go solar/wind at the same time.

[Alonzo]

Zo, it is my personal view that we truly need to increase production wherever and whenever we can. With the dollar at the current level I don't see our fuel cost burden getting any easier until we make some strides in newer production as well as a huge increase in our search for alternate forms of energy. I don't see why we cannot have both.

Boogy, you've been around longer than I have and I have to wonder, in all those years have you seen anything in the American political system to suggest that we'd put large amount of funding, funding that's necessary, into alternative energy sources if oil was affordable? The American political system only takes those steps when it has to, because that's the only time it is politically viable to spend that sort of money on long term goals.

That goes for Democrats and Republicans, but Republicans even moreso. Many republicans support alternative energy sources now not for environmental reasons, but for economic reasons. Where would that support go if oil was back to $2 a gallon?

This is a ship wreck, dude. It ain't got nothin' to do with drilling a well. You would rather keep shipping oil from overseas, aboard ships, than drill for our own oil?


You're not going to reduce that, you're may make a dent in the percent of overseas oil, but as prices drop use will go back up, lowering costs but not necessarily the amount we are importing. It will also mean less invested in alternative energy, which is environmentally far cleaner when done properly; corn ethanol is not a good example.

But it's nice how you pick out that and ignore this:

Even so, says Clusen, there are 300 to 500 spills every year, a number which will grow with increased production.

and this:

Even a perfectly functioning oil well is a cause of concern due to "produced water," explained Short.

Produced water — which rises with oil and contains environmental toxins such as polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH) — is usually tossed overboard. At high concentrations, the contaminants are lethal to marine life. At lower concentrations, according to lab experiments, they can cause birth defects, impaired growth and skewed sex ratios.

There's also the point made with the exxon valdez spill that even though it looks clean to the casual observer the effects are still there.

Have you ever visited a well location? I mean, no shit. Have you?

There's no oil sludge washing up on GOM beaches.

What does the visible appearance have to do with the actual quality of water? Corporations have been sued for polluting water and causing cancer, but that doesn't mean the danger was visible merely by looking at the tap water.

[Alonzo]

Zo, it's always going to be something. Some excuse, some problem, some something, when it comes to drilling for oil so we can finally get off of foreign oil. Meanwhile the poor and middle class are taking it in the butt every time they pull up to the pumps or go shopping for food. Or clothes.

Pay now or pay later. If it's actually a lack of oil that drives prices up then you're going to be looking at a much more dire situation than the one we have now.

This congress must act on drilling, and act now. It's that simple. Nothing says we cannot develop technologies for alternative fuels or go solar/wind at the same time.

Politics won't allow it. Where's the public support for massive funding of alternative energy going to be at if oil is cheap and affordable?

[apdst]

Even so, says Clusen, there are 300 to 500 spills every year, a number which will grow with increased production.

What his he calling a, "spill"? Anything larger than a teacups worth?

Even a perfectly functioning oil well is a cause of concern due to "produced water," explained Short.

Produced water — which rises with oil and contains environmental toxins such as polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH) — is usually tossed overboard. At high concentrations, the contaminants are lethal to marine life. At lower concentrations, according to lab experiments, they can cause birth defects, impaired growth and skewed sex ratios.

Go to the gulf coast of Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, or Texas; hire a fishing charter and see how long it takes for the boat captain to park your butt next to an offshore platform so you can catch all the fish you want.

What does the visible appearance have to do with the actual quality of water? Corporations have been sued for polluting water and causing cancer, but that doesn't mean the danger was visible merely by looking at the tap water.

Do you know how many tons of seafood are harvested in The GOM every year? If it were the envrionmental disaster you would like for us to believe, that wouldn't be happening.

[Alonzo]

This is from Canada, but deals with oil spills:

While newsworthy spills are relatively few in number, small ones are common events. In a 2005 online article, Environment Canada reported at least 12 spills per day occur in Canada. At least one of those occurs in navigable waters.

Some are accidental. Others, like the deliberate offshore dumping of bilge oil by ships, are blamed for killing at least 300,000 Atlantic seabirds per year. That is equivalent to an annual Exxon Valdez-level disaster.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070725/spill_environment_070725/20070726?hub=Specials

And according to the EPA:

http://www.epa.gov/OEM/docs/oil/fss/fss04/etkin_04.pdf

There were about 500 oil spills of 500 gallons or more in navigable waterways in 2000, totaling about 10 million gallons.

Texas is the worst state for spills between 1980 and 2000 (didn't give a yearly breakdown by state):

TX largest spill volume (71 million gal)

The EPA also did not include anything under 50 gallons, spills which make up 99% of all spills, and 20% of the total volume spilled.

[DamnYankee]

Where's the public support for massive funding of alternative energy going to be at if oil is cheap and affordable?

If an innovative person or company developed an alternative attractive and viable energy source, that was cheaper than oil, and just as good, you would see oil in less and less demand.

[BoogyMan]

Boogy, you've been around longer than I have and I have to wonder, in all those years have you seen anything in the American political system to suggest that we'd put large amount of funding, funding that's necessary, into alternative energy sources if oil was affordable? The American political system only takes those steps when it has to, because that's the only time it is politically viable to spend that sort of money on long term goals.

That goes for Democrats and Republicans, but Republicans even moreso. Many republicans support alternative energy sources now not for environmental reasons, but for economic reasons. Where would that support go if oil was back to $2 a gallon?

We, the American people, cannot continue to be complacent if we get energy costs back down. We have to keep the pressure on to lower energy costs AND continue to work toward other means in order to make sure we don't have this same kind of problem again.

[apdst]

This is from Canada, but deals with oil spills:


Quote:
While newsworthy spills are relatively few in number, small ones are common events. In a 2005 online article, Environment Canada reported at least 12 spills per day occur in Canada. At least one of those occurs in navigable waters.

Some are accidental. Others, like the deliberate offshore dumping of bilge oil by ships, are blamed for killing at least 300,000 Atlantic seabirds per year. That is equivalent to an annual Exxon Valdez-level disaster.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...6?hub=Specials

And according to the EPA:

http://www.epa.gov/OEM/docs/oil/fss/fss04/etkin_04.pdf

There were about 500 oil spills of 500 gallons or more in navigable waterways in 2000, totaling about 10 million gallons.

Texas is the worst state for spills between 1980 and 2000 (didn't give a yearly breakdown by state):


Quote:
TX largest spill volume (71 million gal)

The EPA also did not include anything under 50 gallons, spills which make up 99% of all spills, and 20% of the total volume spilled.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy that. Why don't I buy it? Because I see some of those waterways, everyday. The ones I see are the most heavily used waterways, in the country, if not the world, by the oil and gas industry. If those numbers were for real, all the waters in the western hemisphere would be absolute dead zones and that's just not the case.

300,000 seabirds a year? I mean, c'mon. At that rate, there shouldn't be any seabirds left to kill.

If this were the case, why does marine life thrive around offshore platforms?

[Alonzo]

Here's another one on seabirds in Canada from Environment Canada, which is essentially the Canadian EPA:

D. Assessing the numbers of seabirds killed by oil at sea

Only a small proportion of birds killed by oil are actually found on shore, because many never reach land, instead being carried offshore or sinking. Others may reach the shore but are never found, instead becoming buried in the beach, decomposing or being carried off by scavengers. Estimates of the actual number of birds dying at sea are derived using an approach that sequentially builds in the following information:

* the number of oiled birds found washed ashore on beaches,
* the length of time that carcasses of oiled birds remain on a beach,
* the length of time that an oiled bird carcass floats at sea before sinking,
* the proportion of those birds that die at sea which drift towards shore, and
* the size of the ocean area being considered, where ship-source oil pollution and seabirds overlap, resulting in the risk of oiling to seabirds.

For the waters off southeastern Newfoundland, the many variables that must be considered to complete these complicated calculations have been assembled for the species most commonly found oiled - the Thick-billed Murre, or turr. This species breeds in colonies in the eastern Canadian Arctic and western Greenland, and is one of the most numerous wintering seabirds in waters off Newfoundland and northern Nova Scotia. It is regionally important as the most common species taken in the Newfound-land turr hunt.
E. The estimated number of Thick-billed Murres killed by oil

Estimates were derived using this approach by Francis Wiese of Memorial University of Newfoundland, from data collected in 1998-99 to 2000-01. He estimated that between 180,000 and 250,000 Thick-billed Murres were killed each winter from chronic oil pollution in waters off southeastern Newfoundland, within an area encompassing the adjacent Grand Banks directly south of Newfoundland9. However, recognizing the degree of uncertainty in several of the factors used in these calculations, he advises using an conservative estimate of about 200,000 Thick-billed Murres10.

http://www.ns.ec.gc.ca/boas/impacts_e.html#c

If those numbers were for real, all the waters in the western hemisphere would be absolute dead zones and that's just not the case.

The Gulf of Mexico does have a huge dead zone, though it's largely due to the fertilizer coming into the ocean from farms near the Mississippi river.

We, the American people, cannot continue to be complacent if we get energy costs back down. We have to keep the pressure on to lower energy costs AND continue to work toward other means in order to make sure we don't have this same kind of problem again.

Nice political speech, but it says nothing of whether or not you honestly believe that we'd do such a thing. Saying that, essentially, "We can't afford to" is a world away from "we won't".

If an innovative person or company developed an alternative attractive and viable energy source, that was cheaper than oil, and just as good, you would see oil in less and less demand.

Maybe one day, if we do everything we can to help them get more oil, the oil companies will stop being so dependent on oil. :rolleyes:

[apdst]

though it's largely due to the fertilizer coming into the ocean from farms near the Mississippi river.

That's right. Let's grow more crops to produce bio-fuels. That's the answer. Let's use 3 gallons of freshwater to produce one gallon of ethonal. Let's canabalize every available acre of farmland to grow sugar cane. Oh, wait, sugar cane won't grow in Ohio.

[Alonzo]

That's right. Let's grow more crops to produce bio-fuels. That's the answer. Let's use 3 gallons of freshwater to produce one gallon of ethonal. Let's canabalize every available acre of farmland to grow sugar cane. Oh, wait, sugar cane won't grow in Ohio.

And how often have I advocated bio fuels? I've repeatedly stated that corn isn't a good solution.

Though it's nice that you're not disputing the harm of oil anymore.

[suedanim]

I haven't heard what the leftists in congress are going to do other than what they are already doing. Which is not a damn thing.

www.townhall.com/news/us/2008/07/14/bush_to_lift_executive_ban_on_offshore_drilling (http://www.townhall.com/news/us/2008/07/14/bush_to_lift_executive_ban_on_offshore_drilling)

Political move. Nothing more.

Congress is held by a slim Democratic majorty and George's own Dad imposed the ban on offshore drilling. For good reason.. Don't give a shit about the environment though... Dick Cheney has made it CLEAR by hook and crook... the environment will be compromised and lied about.

All this fuckup and the fuckups who support his dumb ass are attempting to do is put the responsibility of THEIR FAILURES on Democrats.

Offshore oil drilling will not lower gas prices today, tomorrow, next year and quite likely EVER. This is a ridiculous political ploy.

[BoogyMan]

Nice political speech, but it says nothing of whether or not you honestly believe that we'd do such a thing. Saying that, essentially, "We can't afford to" is a world away from "we won't".

Egads Zo, it would appear that you are more interested in anti-oil dogma than in a lasting compromise on the issue that both sides could stomach and would benefit the nation as a whole, both long and short term.

[NIOSA]

Bush made his speech, he lifted the off shore oil drilling ban. YES!!!!!! Now what will congress do?

[Alonzo]

Egads Zo, it would appear that you are more interested in anti-oil dogma than in a lasting compromise on the issue that both sides could stomach and would benefit the nation as a whole, both long and short term.

I'm not sure how that relates to this:

Nice political speech, but it says nothing of whether or not you honestly believe that we'd do such a thing. Saying that, essentially, "We can't afford to" is a world away from "we won't".

Do you honestly believe that with cheap oil that what needs to be done, with regards to alternative energies, would be?

[apdst]

perhaps we should outlaw everything, but drilling?

http://www.noia.org/website/image.asp?id=131

[BoogyMan]

I'm not sure how that relates to this:

Do you honestly believe that with cheap oil that what needs to be done, with regards to alternative energies, would be?

What needs to be done will get done if ordinary Americans like you and I demand that it be done, Zo. If we stop the petty bickering and simply stand together on the issue, it can be done. From the tenor of your comment though, I doubt that will ever happen.

[DamnYankee]

Congress is held by a slim Democratic majorty and

Yes, and? Why don't they get on board and start drilling?

George's own Dad imposed the ban on offshore drilling.

So what. The president has lifted the ban and since congress ALSO placed a ban, why can't they lift it like the president did?

Don't give a shit about the environment though... Dick Cheney has made it CLEAR by hook and crook... the environment will be compromised and lied about.

I would rather put the environment at risk vs. screwing over the people with high fuel costs.

All this fuckup and the fuckups who support his dumb ass are attempting to do is put the responsibility of THEIR FAILURES on Democrats.

You just don't get it, do you? The prez lifted the ban. Understand? Now it is the leftists turn in congress to do the same. They have fought this for years. I guess if Pelosi and Reid screw over the people even longer, this will make you happy?


Offshore oil drilling will not lower gas prices today, tomorrow, next year and quite likely EVER. This is a ridiculous political ploy.

If the leftists get their way, we will never know. :thumbsup:

[brien]

If the US doesn't drill in the Florida Straits, China is going to have it all to themselves through the Cuban leases. The Floridians are finally realizing that they better drill or when China spills, they will have no recourse against them vis a vis Cuba. At least if the US drills that area, they will benefit from the drilling rather than allowing China to suck up all the oil in the region.

It is finally happening; the price of gasoline and home heating oil is separating the psuedo stylish enviornmentalists from the enviornmental radicals. The pendulum seems to be swinging back towards logical solutions which hopefully will be tempered with an eye toward the future development of alternative fuels. Perhpas this time around we won't blow it.

[NIOSA]

Harry Reid is getting ready to speak to the off shore drilling. This should be good.

[4Reaganomics]

It is about time the GOP and Bush grew a pair...

At the very least they have brought an issue that they will win with the American people to the forefront. 74% support offshore drilling, so attention to this issue will favor the GOP and McCain

[preservanation]

Harry Reid is getting ready to speak to the off shore drilling. This should be good.He's in a tough spot.
Thanks for the heads up...this should be interesting.

What to do...go with the smart and helpful thing for the American people, or cave to the oil-hating far left minority in his party?
My guess is that he'll have to ride the fence until he has to limp home to Nevada with splinters up his ass.

[brien]

He's in a tough spot.
Thanks for the heads up...this should be interesting.

What to do...go with the smart and helpful thing for the American people, or cave to the oil-hating far left minority in his party?
My guess is that he'll have to ride the fence until he has to limp home to Nevada with splinters up his ass.

Hell, lately he has had the entire rail up his ass.

[Alonzo]

perhaps we should outlaw everything, but drilling?

http://www.noia.org/website/image.asp?id=131

So you're admitting that drilling is a problem, but also pointing out that the additional oil we drill is also presenting a problem after it's removed from the ground.

Thanks for pointing that out! Even more reasons why we need to cut oil consumption. For example, the cost of oil is resulting in people traveling less and buying fuel efficient cars instead of SUV's and trucks. It is also increasing demand for hybrids and hydrogen fuel cell cars, which would further decrease reliance on oil, and further reduce environmental damage from spills.

What needs to be done will get done if ordinary Americans like you and I demand that it be done, Zo. If we stop the petty bickering and simply stand together on the issue, it can be done. From the tenor of your comment though, I doubt that will ever happen.

"Stop the bickering" sounds good, but that involves either me saying "drill more" or you saying "stop new drilling!". Are you going to say that I should simply give in and say drill more? Or are you going to be the one who gives in?

And why do you think increasing supply, which would decrease cost and likely increase demand again for gas guzzling trucks, suv's etc., would help towards that end?

Do you think the majority of americans, which really don't care about the environment or follow politics closely, are going to put any pressure on people to find alternatives to oil when oil is easily affordable for them? What is going to make them care about something that is having no obvious effect on their lives?

[DamnYankee]

Do you think the majority of americans, which really don't care about the environment or follow politics closely, are going to put any pressure on people to find alternatives to oil when oil is easily affordable for them? What is going to make them care about something that is having no obvious effect on their lives?

People used to burn animal blubber in lanterns for light.

Then they discovered fossil fuel which was cheaper, better, and plentiful. People switched fuels. The need for blubber declined.

Do you think people will change?

[Alonzo]

People used to burn animal blubber in lanterns for light.

Then they discovered fossil fuel which was cheaper, better, and plentiful. People switched fuels. The need for blubber declined.

Do you think people will change?

Umm..... no. Whale oil use dropped due to the switch from candles/oil lamps to electric light bulbs, and then ban on whaling finished it off.

From the 16th century through the 19th century, whale oil was used principally as lamp fuel and for producing soap. Long utilized for lubricating fine instruments, whale oil was treated with sulfur to provide high-pressure lubricants used in machinery, and it was also important in the manufacture of varnish, leather, linoleum, and rough cloth (especially jute).

In the first half of the 20th century, whale oil’s applications broadened immensely. Premodern oil was inedible, but advances in chemistry allowed fresh oil to be hardened into a fat, which was used for margarine and soap until vegetable oil became a practical alternative in the late 1930s. Whale oil was extremely important in the manufacture of nitroglycerin for explosives in both world wars, and whale liver oil was a major source of vitamin D through the 1960s.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/641432/whale-oil

Either way though, your solution of sitting back and hoping someone does something, but not really pushing it, is a laughable solution to a significant problem facing us now.

[GhostintheMachine]

People used to burn animal blubber in lanterns for light.

Then they discovered fossil fuel which was cheaper, better, and plentiful. People switched fuels. The need for blubber declined.

Do you think people will change?

People will change to what is most readily available. Alternate fuel sources are not readily available. It is going to take some serious pressure and innovation to bring about change.

[DamnYankee]

[QUOTE=AlonzoMourning23;215662]Umm..... no. Whale oil use dropped due to the switch from candles/oil lamps to electric light bulbs, and then ban on whaling finished it off.[QUOTE]

Okay, fair enough. Still the same. People changed to something better and plentiful.

[Wndrtch]

Umm..... no. Whale oil use dropped due to the switch from candles/oil lamps to electric light bulbs, and then ban on whaling finished it off.

...and how did we generate that electricity?

[Alonzo]

...and how did we generate that electricity?

Electricity has been generated at central stations since 1881. The first power plants were run on water power or coal,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_generation#History

[DamnYankee]

People will change to what is most readily available. Alternate fuel sources are not readily available. It is going to take some serious pressure and innovation to bring about change.

People used horses for transport before autos. The auto came out, people changed. How much pressure was Henry Ford under before the car? Were people standing around screaming for someone to invent the car? No. The car came out, people saw it was better, and they changed.

[potter]

It's just a shame we have to get to this point in order for people to come to their senses.
This whole gas price crisis could have been avoided in the first place if reason had been listened to decades ago.
Instead, all we got was demonized, demagoguery, and impugned as greedy rightwing fuzzy bunny killers.

I hate to say we told you so...but....we did.
Better late than never.
Good job Bush...finally.


As noted in the article, Bush the smarter (a republican) was the one who implemented the ban.

[BoogyMan]

"Stop the bickering" sounds good, but that involves either me saying "drill more" or you saying "stop new drilling!". Are you going to say that I should simply give in and say drill more? Or are you going to be the one who gives in?

And why do you think increasing supply, which would decrease cost and likely increase demand again for gas guzzling trucks, suv's etc., would help towards that end?

Do you think the majority of americans, which really don't care about the environment or follow politics closely, are going to put any pressure on people to find alternatives to oil when oil is easily affordable for them? What is going to make them care about something that is having no obvious effect on their lives?

How about meeting in the middle and not standing on a dogmatic view of energy Zo? Can you not see where meeting in the middle will benefit us all with regard to energy?

[Alonzo]

How about meeting in the middle and not standing on a dogmatic view of energy Zo? Can you not see where meeting in the middle will benefit us all with regard to energy?

That middle ground is?

[DamnYankee]

As noted in the article, Bush the smarter (a republican) was the one who implemented the ban.

So what. This Bush lifted the ban. Now its the leftist congress turn.

Think they are up to the challenge?

[potter]

So what. This Bush lifted the ban. Now its the leftist congress turn.

Think they are up to the challenge?


I really don't care. I doubt I'll be going to Alaska and I don't live on the coast. Let them spill oil and pollute them up for all I care. I'll be long dead by the time the damage is done. Like the deficit, let the kids clean it up.:blah:

[DamnYankee]

I really don't care. I doubt I'll be going to Alaska and I don't live on the coast. Let them spill oil and pollute them up for all I care. I'll be long dead by the time the damage is done. Like the deficit, let the kids clean it up.:blah:

Sorry you feel that way.

[potter]

Sorry you feel that way.

Why? Apparently that pretty much follows US public opinion. The Right wing lives for this.....Just tryin' to get along.

[NIOSA]

& the Dems have basically said "hell-o NO!!!!!!!!!
See where that takes them. I'm bettin they'll come up with something to allow drilling & then take credit. It's an election year.

[DamnYankee]

Why? Apparently that pretty much follows US public opinion. Just tryin' to get along.

I like to think positive.

Maybe the leftist in congress will change their minds and lift the ban.

[potter]

I like to think positive.

Maybe the leftist in congress will change their minds and lift the ban.


Yea...God forbid we advocate moving to renewable non polluting energy.....I don't see anyone promoting that shit thank God.

Keep on thinking positive though.

[DamnYankee]

Yea...God forbid we advocate moving to renewable non polluting energy.....I don't see anyone promoting that shit thank God.

Keep on thinking positive though.

Americans are very innovative. No reason why we couldn't do both.

Thinking negatively is a waste of energy.

[NIOSA]

Yea...God forbid we advocate moving to renewable non polluting energy.....I don't see anyone promoting that shit thank God.

Keep on thinking positive though.

Ethanol was supposed to do that. It's even more polluting, costs more to make, 17 gallons of water to make one gallon of ethanol. Plus, the depletion of corn is having a terriable effect on food prices, along with the cost of gas.

[potter]

Ethanol was supposed to do that. It's even more polluting, costs more to make, 17 gallons of water to make one gallon of ethanol. Plus, the depletion of corn is having a terriable effect on food prices, along with the cost of gas.


The enthanol thing was very poorly thought out. Even an idiot should have been able to see how it would effect foodstuff pricing.

Wind and solar power is good...and CONSERVING fuel is also a great way to start....but we're a terribly spoilt nation and conserving means cutting back or doing without. I don't think that'll fly in Peoria.....

[apdst]

Yea...God forbid we advocate moving to renewable non polluting energy

No one is saying that we don't persue alternate energy. Alls anyone is saying, is that there isn't an alternative available, NOW. And NOW is when we need to do something. Not flouder for the next 30+ years until an alternate fuel becomes practical.

[apdst]

and CONSERVING fuel is also a great way to start....but we're a terribly spoilt nation and conserving means cutting back or doing without

Lowering our standard of living ISN'T the goal, here. Anyone that thinks that's the answer is wacked.

[potter]

Lowering our standard of living ISN'T the goal, here. Anyone that thinks that's the answer is wacked.


Case in point.......

[NIOSA]

The enthanol thing was very poorly thought out. Even an idiot should have been able to see how it would effect foodstuff pricing.

Wind and solar power is good...and CONSERVING fuel is also a great way to start....but we're a terribly spoilt nation and conserving means cutting back or doing without. I don't think that'll fly in Peoria.....

I have cut back on driving, I don't work so I go only when I need to go.
Our electric bill has shot through the roof, but I'm not turning off the AC, even though we have raised it a tad. I ain't living in S. Texas without AC.
I try to cook enough to use for another meal, I have cut back on laundry, only wash twice a week now. So, I'm trying, but it's still very expensive.
I'm not sold on wind & solar power. What if the wind isn't blowing?

[potter]

No one is saying that we don't persue alternate energy. Alls anyone is saying, is that there isn't an alternative available, NOW. And NOW is when we need to do something. Not flouder for the next 30+ years until an alternate fuel becomes practical.


Wind energy?

Solar energy?

What are those? Arent' those better than forever war and trillions spent on weapons?

[potter]

I have cut back on driving, I don't work so I go only when I need to go.
Our electric bill has shot through the roof, but I'm not turning off the AC, even though we have raised it a tad. I ain't living in S. Texas without AC.
I try to cook enough to use for another meal, I have cut back on laundry, only wash twice a week now. So, I'm trying, but it's still very expensive.
I'm not sold on wind & solar power. What if the wind isn't blowing?


The wind is always blowing here in Kansas :thumbsup:

Cutting back doesn't have to hurt. I keep my thermostat set at 73 in the summer and 68 in the winter. I'mm raise/lower them as energy gets more expensive. You get used to it. My bills aren't too bad. I hang my laundry to dry. I don't mind washing dishes by hand. I'm real careful about leaving lights and stuff on. I miss driving anytime I feel like it, but it's not as if driving and wasting gas is a God given American right....

like being secure in my person or house and papers....or Habeus corpus.....

[NIOSA]

The wind is always blowing here in Kansas :thumbsup:

Cutting back doesn't have to hurt. I keep my thermostat set at 73 in the summer and 68 in the winter. I'mm raise/lower them as energy gets more expensive. You get used to it. My bills aren't too bad. I hang my laundry to dry. I don't mind washing dishes by hand. I'm real careful about leaving lights and stuff on. I miss driving anytime I feel like it, but it's not as if driving and wasting gas is a God given American right....

like being secure in my person or house and papers....or Habeus corpus.....

As it does in W. Texas, but not here as much.
Dang, our thermostat is set at 78 & it stays cool, in the winter it stays at about the same. I hang out my sheets, but other than that, it's the dryer. My last electric bill was $511. I never use my dish washer except for every few months just to make sure it's still working, lol. Then I usually put stemware & china/ceramic what-nots in, not dishes. I don't much care for dishwashers. Now I do enjoy my bathtub, it's a spa one & it is soooo relaxing. Even that I don't use more than twice a week, the rest are showers.
I even use those ugly mercury infested light bulbs & I hate them. We've put weather stripping everywhere a decent house would have it, had the energy people out to check the windows etc. Not much else we can do.
However, how much sugar cane do we have in this country? Brazil seems to have taken care of their oil problem with sugar cane.

[DamnYankee]

Wind energy?

Solar energy?

I'm a firm believer in conservation. Wind and solar are great for home power. I do solar. Wind doesn't blow that much here. We produce more than we use when it's sunny which carries us through winter with a credit.

The problem is, everything else cost more. It hurts the poor and middle class the most.

[DamnYankee]

Brazil seems to have taken care of their oil problem with sugar cane.

Sugar cane doesn't grow that well here in the lower 55. :dork: It might work in Hawaii though.

[NIOSA]

Sugar cane doesn't grow that well here in the lower 55. :dork: It might work in Hawaii though.

LOL, what i'm saying is, Brazil fixed their problem with a simple cure. Surely the US could come up with something, other than what amounts to moonshine.

[DamnYankee]

LOL, what i'm saying is, Brazil fixed their problem with a simple cure. Surely the US could come up with something, other than what amounts to moonshine.

Well, we could use coal to manufacture hydrogen. But the left doesn't want to use coal. We have coal coming out our ears. We could use it to produce H for H fuel cells. You could power your home AND car. Of course more work in the research dept. needs to be done.

[potter]

My last electric bill was $511. .

Holy crap! Even during the summer with the air on all the time mine averages just under $100.00.


My gas bill averages about $120 a month - that covers heat, stove, water and that lamp out front.

[DamnYankee]

Holy crap! Even during the summer with the air on all the time mine averages just under $100.00.


My gas bill averages about $120 a month - that covers heat, stove, water and that lamp out front.

What do you pay per Kwh? And how much do you use a month?

[lily]

This is so not goint to happen.........energy companies are not going to put out money on something that is not a sure thing. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/14/AR2008071401665.html?hpid=topnews)

<snip>
Before drilling could begin, they say, Congress would have to reopen
long-closed tracts of the Atlantic. Energy companies would have to make an
expensive bet on a seabed they know little about. And then there would be a
long turning of bureaucratic gears before any oil got pumped.

[DamnYankee]

This is so not goint to happen.........energy companies are not going to put out money on something that is not a sure thing.

Like the 68 mil. acres currently under lease.

[lily]

Well, they've already got those and there is no problem.........so let's start with that.

[GhostintheMachine]

Impacts of Increased Access to Oil and Natural Gas Resources in the Lower 48 Federal Outer Continental Shelf

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/otheranalysis/ongr.html

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/otheranalysis/images/figure_20.gif
The projections in the OCS access case indicate that access to the Pacific, Atlantic, and eastern Gulf regions would not have a significant impact on domestic crude oil and natural gas production or prices before 2030.