Right On, General Clark. Do Not Back Down.

[suedanim]

Straight talk from a notable, knowledgeable military leader got little attention in the press....

This article from a Kosovo and Iraq war veteran... Jon Soltz... who co-founded VoteVets.org and who Limbaugh, called a "phony soldier".

Right On, General Clark. Do Not Back Down (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jon-soltz/right-on-general-clark-do_b_109977.html)



Boy, talk about your echo chamber in the media. Yesterday, General Wesley Clark went on CBS' Face the Nation, and repeated something he's said many times before. If you missed it, here's the full quote in context (http://securingamerica.com/node/2993) :
Bob Schieffer: Well you, you went so far as to say that you thought John McCain was, quote, and these are your words, "untested and untried," And I must say I, I had to read that twice, because you're talking about somebody who was a prisoner of war. He was a squadron commander of the largest squadron in the Navy. He's been on the Senate Armed Services Committee for lo these many years. How can you say that John McCain is un- untested and untried? General?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Because in the matters of national security policy making, it's a matter of understanding risk. It's a matter of gauging your opponents, and it's a matter of being held accountable. John McCain's never done any of that in his official positions. I certainly honor his service as a prisoner of war. He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands and millions of others in Armed Forces as a prisoner of war. He has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee, and he has traveled all over the world. But he hasn't held executive responsibility. That large squadron in Air- in the Navy that he commanded, it wasn't a wartime squadron. He hasn't been there and ordered the bombs to fall. He hasn't seen what it's like when diplomats come in and say, 'I don't know whether we're going to be able to get this point through or not. Do you want to take the risk? What about your reputation? How do we handle it-'
Bob Schieffer: Well-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: ' -it publicly.' He hasn't made those calls, Bob.

So, in short, General Clark respects John McCain's service, calls him a hero to millions, but notes that experience doesn't make him qualified to be Commander in Chief.

Now, VoteVets.org isn't getting into the presidential race, but I don't see what is so wrong about what General Clark said. And yet, immediately and unsurprisingly, the McCain campaign let loose with a response that expressed shock and dismay. Almost right after that, all of the media was up in arms about how 'wrong' this was. Pretty disappointingly, even progressive surrogates couldn't muster the strength to back up General Clark on TV.

Why?

This wasn't a swift boating, or any low politics. General Clark called McCain a hero to millions for his sacrifice. And, that's a pretty big statement coming from a man who, himself, left Vietnam on a stretcher.

But, facts are facts:

• Senator McCain's service and experience, both as a POW and as a Senator apparently hasn't infused him with a dose of good judgment.

• Senator McCain's experience hasn't led him to realize that the war in Iraq and it's continuance has empowered and emboldened Iran, and destabilized the region.

• Senator McCain's experience hasn't caused him to recognize that we're losing ground in Afghanistan, and Osama bin Laden is still out there, plotting.

• Senator McCain's experience didn't lead him to support the 21st Century GI Bill -- he opposed it. It didn't even make him feel the need to get back to Washington to vote on this -- one of the most important veterans' bills this Congress. He twice skipped votes on the GI Bill, to fundraise.

• Senator McCain's experience didn't help him empathize with troops are overstretched and overdeployed, when he voted against the bipartisan Webb-Hagel "Dwell Time Amendment," which would have given troops as much time at home as in the field.

Senator McCain is running on his experience, saying it makes him ready to lead right away. By doing so, he is asking people to look at what that experience taught him. By looking at Senator McCain's positions and votes (or lack of them), it seems that experience has not given him the right judgment on important issues of our time. And, while we should all honor Senator McCain's service, that doesn't mean we should necessarily honor it by putting him in the White House to take up George W. Bush's third term.

So, General Clark is 100 percent absolutely right, and he should not back down. I'd hope that some of the so-called progressives on television back him up on this, and not get intimidated by the media and McCain campaign press releases. These are important times, and deserve a blunt and honest debate.

In some circles, that's just called 'straight talk.'

UPDATE: Since a lot of you are sending words of support on here for General Clark, we started a petition (http://ga3.org/campaign/petitionclark)where you can sign to thank him, and tell him to keep it up. We will take the petition to General Clark, personally. Also, it's important to sign, so we can show the media that we've got his back.

[apdst]

This article from a Kosovo and Iraq war veteran... Jon Soltz... who co-founded VoteVets.org and who Limbaugh, called a "phony soldier".

Wow! That's a lie.

[BoogyMan]

Wow! That's a lie.

Astute observation apdst, but the more radical of the left have held on to that claim even though it was thoroughly and completely debunked.

What I find interesting about this whole article is that Obama has LESS qualifications for the job than the writer claims that McCain does. Hypocrisy? Oh yeah.

[apdst]

Astute observation apdst, but the more radical of the left have held on to that claim even though it was thoroughly and completely debunked.

It just goes to show how Leftists have to lie to sell their agenda.

[4Reaganomics]

Astute observation apdst, but the more radical of the left have held on to that claim even though it was thoroughly and completely debunked.

What I find interesting about this whole article is that Obama has LESS qualifications for the job than the writer claims that McCain does. Hypocrisy? Oh yeah.

I'd ask Gen. Clark to look at it comparatively if I was interviewing him.
Is Obama's experience in Cambridge and then Springfield Illinois more pertinent to National defense than McCain's training and career in the military.

I don't believe so.

[NIOSA]

Is this the same General Clark that Bill Clinton fired?
A friend of mine worked for Clark. She said that "Gen. Weasley", a name his subordinates used for him, would step on his mama if he thought it would further his career.
Actually, Clark demonstrated that himself when the Republicans didn't treat him like Gen. God.

[suedanim]

Well... in reference to stepping on people to get ahead... I don't think you want to go there. McCain took that cake and ran with it over 20 years ago when he dumped his disabled ex-wife, who waited for him faithfully while he was a POW, never wanting him to know of the horrific accident she sustained, stood by him while he screwed around on her when he got back from Nam... then he left her for the young, then ... prettier, wealthy Cindy he lived with while still married. Oh yeah... a real stable, winner McCain is. I don't think you could find a more horrible choice for a candidate.

As for Limbaugh... he said it. Limbaugh's never served a day in the military. The words..."phony soldier" should have never crossed that bloated pos's mouth.

[BoogyMan]

Limbaugh was talking about guys who faked a military record like Jesse Macbeth Sue, don't let the truth slow you down though.

[Buck Laser]

Limbaugh was talking about guys who faked a military record like Jesse Macbeth Sue, don't let the truth slow you down though.
Sounds a bit like he's calling you a liar, Sue.

[NIOSA]

Well... in reference to stepping on people to get ahead... I don't think you want to go there. McCain took that cake and ran with it over 20 years ago when he dumped his disabled ex-wife, who waited for him faithfully while he was a POW, never wanting him to know of the horrific accident she sustained, stood by him while he screwed around on her when he got back from Nam... then he left her for the young, then ... prettier, wealthy Cindy he lived with while still married. Oh yeah... a real stable, winner McCain is. I don't think you could find a more horrible choice for a candidate.

As for Limbaugh... he said it. Limbaugh's never served a day in the military. The words..."phony soldier" should have never crossed that bloated pos's mouth.

& what McCain did excuses Clark? Two wrongs do make a right?
I know the McCain story, most everyone does.
What gave you the idea that McCain is my choice of the candidates?
I wouldn't bring up what anybody says about a GI or our military after what Kerry, Durbin, & Murtha has said, if I were you. I mean, they are on your side of the aisle, right?

[NIOSA]

Limbaugh was talking about guys who faked a military record like Jesse Macbeth Sue, don't let the truth slow you down though.

Exactly, but any port in a storm, ya know.

[suedanim]

Sounds a bit like he's calling you a liar, Sue.

:lmao: Not the first time, wont be the last.


We've been through this before. Limbaugh was not referencing anyone but soldiers, in general, who believe our course in Iraq was either poorly implemented or that we should have never been there or should pull out.

He was NOT talking about... Jesse Macbeth... But, nice try at playing hindsight cover.

Not once in this conversation did Limbaugh mention Jesse MacBeth.... The caller references the media not ever talking to REAL SOLDIERS... But, the media has talked to real soldiers, in Jon Soltz and others... and Limbaugh referred to them, in general, in agreement with the caller... as phony.... without qualification as referring to one individual.

Wounded Iraq war vet rebukes Limbaugh (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/2003923691_limbaugh04.html)

But, what about Jesse MacBeth....?? (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-limbaugh4oct04,1,7957806.story?coll=la-headlines-nation)

Limbaugh maintains he was not referring to antiwar veterans. He was, he said, referring to antiwar activist Jesse MacBeth, a 23-year-old Tacoma, Wash., man who was sentenced to five months in prison last month after his false claims about his military service were revealed by conservative bloggers.

If Limbaugh meant he was talking about MacBeth, he should have mentioned him by name... IN that call at that moment. He didn't. And all other outspoken REAL soldiers, equally proud to serve their country who have spoken out against this fucked up war, were outraged....and rightly so!


From the September 26 broadcast of Premiere Radio Networks' The Rush Limbaugh Show: (http://mediamatters.org/items/200709270010)

LIMBAUGH: Mike in Chicago, welcome to the EIB Network. Hello.
CALLER 1: Hi Rush, how you doing today?
LIMBAUGH: I'm fine sir, thank you.
CALLER 1: Good. Why is it that you always just accuse the Democrats of being against the war and suggest that there are absolutely no Republicans that could possibly be against the war?
LIMBAUGH: Well, who are these Republicans? I can think of Chuck Hagel, and I can think of Gordon Smith, two Republican senators, but they don't want to lose the war like the Democrats do. I can't think of -- who are the Republicans in the anti-war movement?
CALLER 1: I'm just -- I'm not talking about the senators. I'm talking about the general public -- like you accuse the public of all the Democrats of being, you know, wanting to lose, but --
LIMBAUGH: Oh, come on! Here we go again. I uttered a truth, and you can't handle it, so you gotta call here and change the subject. How come I'm not also hitting Republicans? I don't know a single Republican or conservative, Mike, who wants to pull out of Iraq in defeat. The Democrats have made the last four years about that specifically.
CALLER 1: Well, I am a Republican, and I've listened to you for a long time, and you're right on a lot of things, but I do believe that we should pull out of Iraq. I don't think it's winnable. And I'm not a Democrat, but I just -- sometimes you've got to cut the losses.
LIMBAUGH: Well, you -- you --
CALLER 1: I mean, sometimes you really gotta know when you're wrong.
LIMBAUGH: Well, yeah, you do. I'm not wrong on this. The worst thing that can happen is losing this, flying out of there, waving the white flag. Do you have --
CALLER 1: Oh, I'm not saying that. I'm not saying anything like that, but, you know --
LIMBAUGH: Well, of course you are.
CALLER 1: No, I'm not.
LIMBAUGH: Bill, the truth is -- the truth is the truth, Mike.
CALLER 1: We did what we were supposed to do, OK. We got rid of Saddam Hussein. We got rid of a lot of the terrorists. Let them run their country --
LIMBAUGH: Oh, good lord! Good lord.
[...]
CALLER 1: How long is it gonna -- how long do you think we're going to have to be there for them to take care of that?
LIMBAUGH: Mike --
CALLER 1: How long -- you know -- what is it?
LIMBAUGH: Mike --
CALLER 1: What is it?
LIMBAUGH: Mike, you can't possibly be a Republican.
CALLER 1: I am.
LIMBAUGH: You are -- you are --
CALLER 1: I am definitely a Republican.
LIMBAUGH: You can't be a Republican. You are --
CALLER 1: Oh, I am definitely a Republican.
LIMBAUGH: You are tarnishing the reputation, 'cause you sound just like a Democrat.
CALLER 1: No, but --
LIMBAUGH: The answer to your question --
CALLER 1: -- seriously, how long do we have to stay there --
LIMBAUGH: As long as it takes!
CALLER 1: -- to win it? How long?
LIMBAUGH: As long as it takes! It is very serious.
CALLER 1: And that is what?
LIMBAUGH: This is the United States of America at war with Islamofascists. We stay as long -- just like your job. You do everything you have to do, whatever it takes to get it done, if you take it seriously.
CALLER 1: So then you say we need to stay there forever --
LIMBAUGH: I -- it won't --
CALLER 1: -- because that's what it'll take.
LIMBAUGH: No, Bill, or Mike -- I'm sorry. I'm confusing you with the guy from Texas.
CALLER 1: See, I -- I've used to be military, OK? And I am a Republican.
LIMBAUGH: Yeah. Yeah.
CALLER 1: And I do live [inaudible] but --
LIMBAUGH: Right. Right. Right, I know.
CALLER 1: -- you know, really -- I want you to be saying how long it's gonna take.
LIMBAUGH: And I, by the way, used to walk on the moon!
CALLER 1: How long do we have to stay there?
LIMBAUGH: You're not listening to what I say. You can't possibly be a Republican. I'm answering every question. That's not what you want to hear, so it's not even penetrating your little wall of armor you've got built up.
[...]
LIMBAUGH: Another Mike, this one in Olympia, Washington. Welcome to the EIB Network. Hello.

CALLER 2: Hi Rush, thanks for taking my call.

LIMBAUGH: You bet.

CALLER 2: I have a retort to Mike in Chicago, because I am a serving American military, in the Army. I've been serving for 14 years, very proudly.

LIMBAUGH: Thank you, sir.

CALLER 2: And, you know, I'm one of the few that joined the Army to serve my country, I'm proud to say, not for the money or anything like that. What I would like to retort to is that, if we pull -- what these people don't understand is if we pull out of Iraq right now, which is about impossible because of all the stuff that's over there, it'd take us at least a year to pull everything back out of Iraq, then Iraq itself would collapse, and we'd have to go right back over there within a year or so. And --

LIMBAUGH: There's a lot more than that that they don't understand. They can't even -- if -- the next guy that calls here, I'm gonna ask him: Why should we pull -- what is the imperative for pulling out? What's in it for the United States to pull out? They can't -- I don't think they have an answer for that other than, "Well, we just gotta bring the troops home."

CALLER 2: Yeah, and, you know what --

LIMBAUGH: "Save the -- keep the troops safe" or whatever. I -- it's not possible, intellectually, to follow these people.

CALLER 2: No, it's not, and what's really funny is, they never talk to real soldiers. They like to pull these soldiers that come up out of the blue and talk to the media.

LIMBAUGH: The phony soldiers.

CALLER 2: The phony soldiers. If you talk to a real soldier, they are proud to serve. They want to be over in Iraq. They understand their sacrifice, and they're willing to sacrifice for their country.

LIMBAUGH: They joined to be in Iraq. They joined --

CALLER 2: A lot of them -- the new kids, yeah.

LIMBAUGH: Well, you know where you're going these days, the last four years, if you signed up. The odds are you're going there or Afghanistan or somewhere.

CALLER 2: Exactly, sir.

[BoogyMan]

You guys were proven wrong before and you are now posting known false allegations for political purposes. Jesse MacBeth WAS the "soldier" who came up out of nowhere to talk to the media and he WAS a phony soldier, Sue.

MacBeth popped up speaking to the media about atrocities he NEVER saw and was shown to be a fraud.

Sue, you are way too smart for this. We don't agree on much, but I know how sharp you are and this simply is beneath you.

As for the OP, it is pretty funny that the guy calls McCain unqualified when Obama has much less experience. :D

[apdst]

Not once in this conversation did Limpbutt mention Jesse MacBeth

Two lies in ine thread. Incredible.

[suedanim]

You guys were proven wrong before and you are now posting known false allegations for political purposes. Jesse MacBeth WAS the "soldier" who came up out of nowhere to talk to the media and he WAS a phony soldier, Sue.

MacBeth popped up speaking to the media about atrocities he NEVER saw and was shown to be a fraud.

Sue, you are way too smart for this. We don't agree on much, but I know how sharp you are and this simply is beneath you.

As for the OP, it is pretty funny that the guy calls McCain unqualified when Obama has much less experience. :D


Okay... I'm willing to admit a mistake. Just show me with a link where Limbaugh referenced MacBeth in the conversation in which he called soldiers, phoney, who spoke to the press opposing the war.

Show me and I'll admit you owned me.

[BoogyMan]

Okay... I'm willing to admit a mistake. Just show me with a link where Limbaugh referenced MacBeth in the conversation in which he called soldiers, phoney, who spoke to the press opposing the war.

Show me and I'll admit you owned me.

I could care less about "owning" you Sue, but truth matters and I think you have been deceived.

MacBeth and others popped up claiming to be soldiers who witnessed US atrocities, they were proven to be phoney soldiers telling lies. Wild allegations then began to pour in from nearly every left wing gunslinger out there.

I am sure you will reject the source, but here it is.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NzQzZGJkM2E1NWI5NmNjMTAzNTQ4YTk1ZDRhZTMyNWY=

[ECW]

They are not going to find that link, Sue.

Limbaugh said it and then after the commercial break came back and made reference to MacBeth. The transcript proves what every Neocon here hates to admit: Limbaugh got caught smearing soldiers who came from war and were Liberals. If he was making the MacBeth reference he could have said so during the phone call but he did not.

Clark is right on the money about McCain as well. He's a Washington insider with lobbyist connections and flip-flops by the dozen. No one would know which way was up in a McCain administration.

[suedanim]

I could care less about "owning" you Sue, but truth matters and I think you have been deceived.

MacBeth and others popped up claiming to be soldiers who witnessed US atrocities, they were proven to be phoney soldiers telling lies. Wild allegations then began to pour in from nearly every left wing gunslinger out there.

I am sure you will reject the source, but here it is.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NzQzZGJkM2E1NWI5NmNjMTAzNTQ4YTk1ZDRhZTMyNWY=

No one disputed any of that boogey.. You're out in left field.

The POINT is... Limbaugh did NOT reference MacBeth in that phone call in question.. and to any reasonable person listening would not have MacBeth's name in their heads during that conversation. Therefore... the REAL soldiers who had spoken out against the war were rightly offended.

READ the conversation.

[ECW]

...notice that the transcript has not been challenged as being accurate... they'll get to that soon enough when it becomes apparent that Rush's cover has been blown.

[Trish]

When all this crap first hit I took the video link that was provided AND the COMPLETE transcript of that morning's Limbaugh show and proved that Limbaugh was NOT calling the caller a phony soldier, but was in fact calling McBeth and others LIKE McBeth phony soldiers. Limbaugh finishes the discussion with Mike - the 2nd caller, and then goes immediately into a discussion about phony or fake soldiers. The chop job Mediamatters did on this was piss poor. It was easy to take apart and prove for the chop job it was - if anyone actually cared about the truth of the matter. Since it involved Rush Limbaugh, however, truth was not important to very many.

The rest of the transcript, from where Sue left off is given below.

"CALLER: Exactly, sir. My other comment, my original comment, was a retort to Jill about the fact we didn't find any weapons of mass destruction. Actually, we have found weapons of mass destruction in chemical agents that terrorists have been using against us for a while now. I've done two tours in Iraq, I just got back in June, and there are many instances of insurgents not knowing what they're using in their IEDs. They're using mustard artillery rounds, VX artillery rounds in their IEDs. Because they didn't know what they were using, they didn't do it right, and so it didn't really hurt anybody. But those munitions are over there. It's a huge desert. If they bury it somewhere, we're never going to find it.

RUSH: Well, that's a moot point for me right now.

CALLER: Right. http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/spc.gif
RUSH: The weapons of mass destruction. We gotta get beyond that. We're there. We all know they were there, and Mahmoud even admitted it in one of his speeches here talking about Saddam using the poison mustard gas or whatever it is on his own people. But that's moot. What's more important is all this is taking place now in the midst of the surge working, and all of these anti-war Democrats are getting even more hell-bent on pulling out of there, which means that success on the part of you and your colleagues over there is a great threat to them. It's frustrating and maddening, and why they must be kept in the minority. I want to thank you, Mike, for calling. I appreciate it very much.

Here is a Morning Update (http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_092407/content/01125101.member.html) that we did recently, talking about fake soldiers. This is a story of who the left props up as heroes. They have their celebrities and one of them was Army Ranger Jesse Macbeth. Now, he was a "corporal." I say in quotes. Twenty-three years old. What made Jesse Macbeth a hero to the anti-war crowd wasn't his Purple Heart; it wasn't his being affiliated with post-traumatic stress disorder from tours in Afghanistan and Iraq. No. What made Jesse Macbeth, Army Ranger, a hero to the left was his courage, in their view, off the battlefield, without regard to consequences. He told the world the abuses he had witnessed in Iraq, American soldiers killing unarmed civilians, hundreds of men, women, even children. In one gruesome account, translated into Arabic and spread widely across the Internet, Army Ranger Jesse Macbeth describes the horrors this way: "We would burn their bodies. We would hang their bodies from the rafters in the mosque."

Now, recently, Jesse Macbeth, poster boy for the anti-war left, had his day in court. And you know what? He was sentenced to five months in jail and three years probation for falsifying a Department of Veterans Affairs claim and his Army discharge record. He was in the Army. Jesse Macbeth was in the Army, folks, briefly. Forty-four days before he washed out of boot camp. Jesse Macbeth isn't an Army Ranger, never was. He isn't a corporal, never was. He never won the Purple Heart, and he was never in combat to witness the horrors he claimed to have seen. You probably haven't even heard about this. And, if you have, you haven't heard much about it. This doesn't fit the narrative and the template in the Drive-By Media and the Democrat Party as to who is a genuine war hero. Don't look for any retractions, by the way. Not from the anti-war left, the anti-military Drive-By Media, or the Arabic websites that spread Jesse Macbeth's lies about our troops, because the truth for the left is fiction that serves their purpose. They have to lie about such atrocities because they can't find any that fit the template of the way they see the US military. In other words, for the American anti-war left, the greatest inconvenience they face is the truth. http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/spc.gif
END TRANSCRIPT"
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_092607/content/01125113.guest.html

[PostmodernProphet]

I for one hope that Clark continues talking about the need for experience on a regular basis.....it will only underscore Obama's lack of ALL experience.....

[Invayne]

Is this the same General Clark that Bill Clinton fired?
A friend of mine worked for Clark. She said that "Gen. Weasley", a name his subordinates used for him, would step on his mama if he thought it would further his career.
Actually, Clark demonstrated that himself when the Republicans didn't treat him like Gen. God.

Pffft. Clark is an idiot.

[Invayne]

Well... in reference to stepping on people to get ahead... I don't think you want to go there. McCain took that cake and ran with it over 20 years ago when he dumped his disabled ex-wife, who waited for him faithfully while he was a POW, never wanting him to know of the horrific accident she sustained, stood by him while he screwed around on her when he got back from Nam... then he left her for the young, then ... prettier, wealthy Cindy he lived with while still married. Oh yeah... a real stable, winner McCain is. I don't think you could find a more horrible choice for a candidate.
I agree that he's a horrible choice for a candidate, but if you're using the excuse of him screwing around behind his wife's back...um...I'll bet you were a Clinton fan, huh? Nothing wrong with what he was, and still is doing, right? Yeah, I thought so.

As for Limbaugh... he said it. Limbaugh's never served a day in the military. The words..."phony soldier" should have never crossed that bloated pos's mouth.Why do you have to serve in the military to know what a phony soldier is? Do you have a clue as to what he was talking about when he said that?

Obviously not.:unreal:

[Invayne]

Limbaugh was talking about guys who faked a military record like Jesse Macbeth Sue, don't let the truth slow you down though.

Thank you!

[Shoey]

I for one hope that Clark continues talking about the need for experience on a regular basis.....it will only underscore Obama's lack of ALL experience.....

I whole heartingly agree. What I find interesting is that I tend to hear Wesley Clark's name in the MSM come election time, that's about it. When I ask myself "what has Obama led" I find myself searching and searching for answers and come up with zero.

[tecoyah]

I agree that he's a horrible choice for a candidate, but if you're using the excuse of him screwing around behind his wife's back...um...I'll bet you were a Clinton fan, huh? Nothing wrong with what he was, and still is doing, right? Yeah, I thought so.



I think this goes more to his Character than getting laid does:

In an extraordinary act of compassion at a time when Vietnamese citizens were being killed by US aerial bombardments, he pulled a barely conscious McCain to the lake surface and, with the help of a neighbour, dragged him towards the shore.

And when a furious mob at the water's edge began to beat and stab the captured pilot, Mr On drove them back.

Nearly three decades later, a Vietnamese government commission confirmed he was indeed the rescuer and, in a 1996 meeting in Hanoi, McCain embraced and thanked Mr On and presented him with a Senate memento.

From that brief encounter to his death at the age of 88 two years ago, Mr On never heard from the senator again, and three years after their meeting, McCain published an autobiography that makes no mention of his apparent debt to Mr On.

It is a snub Mr On took to his death.

His widow, Bui Thi Lien, 71, said: In his last years, my husband was very sad sometimes.

He would say, 'Mr McCain has forgotten me.'

Mr McCain would be dead if it weren't for my husband. He would never have returned to his family and he wouldn't be in the presidential race today.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-542277/How-war-hero-John-McCain-betrayed-Vietnamese-peasant-saved-life.html

Clinton was a DOG, but I had far less to worry about during his presidency, and to be honest...I really don't care about someone elses sex life.

[BoogyMan]

They are not going to find that link, Sue.

Limbaugh said it and then after the commercial break came back and made reference to MacBeth. The transcript proves what every Neocon here hates to admit: Limbaugh got caught smearing soldiers who came from war and were Liberals. If he was making the MacBeth reference he could have said so during the phone call but he did not.

No, ECW, when the flying lie monkeys were sent out the first time this assertion was false and it still is. The only thing you have against Limbaugh is your dislike for the man.

It is pretty funny. I started listening to Limbaugh because of the first round of lies the left tried to paint Limbaugh with over this. Trish posted the rest of the transcript above which makes it clear that MacBeth was the target of the phoney soldiers comment.

Clark is right on the money about McCain as well. He's a Washington insider with lobbyist connections and flip-flops by the dozen. No one would know which way was up in a McCain administration.

Clark claimed that McCain wasn't qualified but didn't use his same criteria for qualification to look at Obama. If McCain isn't qualified, Obama CERTAINLY ISN'T qualified.

[preservanation]

Clark is a well known running joke in the US Military and the UN command structure, for that matter.
His behavior, demeanor and bloodthirsty tactics were deplorable during his reign as the Commander in Serbia and elsewhere.
As Supreme Commander of NATO during the Kosovo war, Clark was ultimately responsible for targeting the bridges and electrical grids of Yugoslavia and for using cluster bombs and depleted uranium. (I asked him at a press conference in Madison, Wisconsin, this fall about depleted uranium. He said: "There is no indication it causes any trouble," except perhaps if you put something in your mouth that is covered with it.). During the Kosovo war, Clark also repeatedly targeted Yugoslavia's TV headquarters, killing twenty people there.


The Perfumed Prince declared himself a Democrat. Many Americans may not recognize the nickname bestowed upon Wesley Clark by British colleagues as he strutted around Serbia with his set of platinum-plated general's stars carefully repositioned each day to a freshly-starched and ironed camouflage cap, wafting a thick vapor trail of cologne.
http://prorev.com/clark.htm

[tecoyah]

Thanks for answering my question guys....it is indeed the GOP tactic from page 2.

[AlanC]

I still say that if Obama and Clark want to discuss experience as a qualification for the presidency, they will find McCain more than ready to do so.

There is a reason Obama refuted the remarks so quickly. I would have thought all his supporters got the memo. Clark's comments were not a good thing for your guy!

As for Rush, he is hugely popular with the troops and the left knows it. They fall all over themselves to try and find something to dent that and the phoney soldier issue is their latest attempt. It didn't work.

When Kerry did diss the troops, they were quick to show what they thought of the remark. It shut Kerry down and probably is the biggest thing that kept him completely out of this presidential race.

There has been no such military audience reaction to Limbaugh's phoney soldier remark because, they agree with him and they know what he was talking about too.

So, it has played out like this. Kerry makes a stupid remark and is relegated to the back room forever. Limbaugh makes a legitimate remark and inks a shiny new contract.

Game over.

[apdst]

bloodthirsty tactics were deplorable during his reign as the Commander in Serbia and elsewhere.

His tactics in The Balkins were far from bloodthirsty. Pussified would be a better word. I sat on the side of a mountain one day and watched as the entired Serbian army marched home, without any fear of attack, after killing a couple hundred thousand Bosnians. We weren't allowed to do shit. We ceartianly weren't allowed to do what needed to be done, which was descend upon them with extreme violence and slaughter them to the last man. Nop, instead we had explicit orders not to molest the Serbs as they excaped from the kill zone.

[Invayne]

I think this goes more to his Character than getting laid does:


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-542277/How-war-hero-John-McCain-betrayed-Vietnamese-peasant-saved-life.html

Yes, that does show lack of character, although if he was unconscious, he might not have remembered WHO saved him. And it did say that stories like that were floating around everywhere, so maybe he didn't know who to believe.

Clinton was a DOG, but I had far less to worry about during his presidency, and to be honest...I really don't care about someone elses sex life.
I don't care if someone screws sheep as long as the sheep are enjoying it.

And I promise I won't bring up the fact that Clinton sold secrets to the Chinese and laid the groundwork for 9/11, among other things.:innocent:

[suedanim]

I still say that if Obama and Clark want to discuss experience as a qualification for the presidency, they will find McCain more than ready to do so.

Remains to be seen. What experience ever prepares a person for the Presidency? This experience factor was not an issue for discussion until Hillary Clinton made it one.

Certainly... George Bush was unprepared, since we've experienced nothing but failure and incompetance from beginning to sorry end.

Why should anyone believe McCain's experiences has prepared him for the job? Sorry... but having been a POW 40 years ago is not it... In that 40 year span...though, what has he accomplished that speaks to his ability to lead? How do those things compare to the things he has done which display an utter lack of self-control and character?

There is a reason Obama refuted the remarks so quickly. I would have thought all his supporters got the memo. Clark's comments were not a good thing for your guy!

1) Clark wasn't speaking FOR Obama... so yeah... and 2) Obama remains ahead in polls. McCain continues to flounder. Not sure I get the "not a good thing" part, but anyhoo.


As for Rush, he is hugely popular with the troops and the left knows it.

Maybe with some... but not all.


They fall all over themselves to try and find something to dent that and the phoney soldier issue is their latest attempt. It didn't work.

He and his caller used the plural... soldier(s). He backtracked later. couple of minutes.. to qualify it as if he was referencing only one guy, MacBeth. He wasn't, got busted... end of story.

MacBeth... is one issue. We all condemn that incident. Done deal. What Limbaugh did was use the word... soldiers in plural... and left off talking specifically about MacBeth until later.


There has been no such military audience reaction to Limbaugh's phoney soldier remark because, they agree with him and they know what he was talking about too.

Not true. But if your input is from pro-limbaugh sources (Fox) I can see why you'd say that.

There were people in the military who petitioned to have him removed from radio. It created a huge controversy and much anger among soldiers opposed to the Iraq war. Don't make me post all the commentary, videos and speeches. They heard it, they reacted... Limbaugh fucked up, realized it and played cover a few minutes after.

Fine... McBeth was a fraud. Call him on it. But don't use plural if you're talking about just one person... and Limbaugh and his caller did use the plural.

You people will believe and spin this the way you want. But, many soldiers opposed to the war heard it like it was and objected to it.

No matter what Limbaugh... says...you defend him as the definitive word directly in the middle of your political scene. He defines the GOP, the conservative idealogy for you. Combine Limbaugh's words with Glenn Becks and Coulters.............

:thumbsup: Sound bytes, fodder.... Thanks!

3AUYgNzXaAE


5ELuwmhvKt0


Limbaugh makes a legitimate remark and inks a shiny new contract.

Game over.

[Invayne]

His tactics in The Balkins were far from bloodthirsty. Pussified would be a better word. I sat on the side of a mountain one day and watched as the entired Serbian army marched home, without any fear of attack, after killing a couple hundred thousand Bosnians. We weren't allowed to do shit. We ceartianly weren't allowed to do what needed to be done, which was descend upon them with extreme violence and slaughter them to the last man. Nop, instead we had explicit orders not to molest the Serbs as they excaped from the kill zone.

Jeeeez, what the hell did we even go there for if we had no intentions of getting the job done? Idiots. That's what happens when politicians want to fight a war.

[apdst]

Jeeeez, what the hell did we even go there for if we had no intentions of getting the job done?

I got a couple ribbons out of the deal so I could look cooler in my class a's. That's about it.

[Invayne]

I got a couple ribbons out of the deal so I could look cooler in my class a's. That's about it.

Well good for you!:madlaugh:

[AlanC]

Remains to be seen. What experience ever prepares a person for the Presidency? This experience factor was not an issue for discussion until Hillary Clinton made it one.



Clark's entire comment was that John McCain hasn't had the experience to be president. Period.

Even though the experience he has had, as being a combat veteran,, a squadron commander, years in the senate, foreign relations experience, planning and being in the Senate, etc.... is inadequate, in Clark's view, Obama has not a fraction of that experience.

You are the one praising Clark for his comment and yet, his comment condemns Obama far more than it does McCain, because if McCain's experience is lacking, Obama's is non-existant.

If experience is a non-issue, Clark's comments that you find so uplifting are irrelevant. Admit it, the only thing you like about them is that they appear to bash McCain. You don't really care about the reason. You don't even care if they make any sense, do you?

[suedanim]

Clark's eniter comment was that John McCain hasn't ahd the experience to be president. Period.

Even though the experience he has had, as being a combat veteran,, a squadron commander, years in the senate, foreign relations experience, planning and being in the Senate, etc.... is inadequate, in Clark's view, Obama has not a fraction of that experience.

You are the one praising Clark for his comment and yet, his comment condemns Obama far more than it does McCain, because if McCain's experience is lacking, Obama's is non-existant.

If experience is a non-issue, Clark's comments that you find so uplifting are irrelevant. Admit it, the only thing you like about them is that they appear to bash McCain. You don't really care about the reason. You don't even care if they make any sense, do you?

Well...I do like and respect Wesley Clark. And I do think his pov should be at least acknowledged, every bit as much as Limbaugh's or Beck's about John McCain. At least, those three .... and others from both sides of the aisle don't think his experience and what he's espoused measures up to being CIC material.

So I posted his pov here.. Anyway... I've spent more time talking shit about Limbaugh than praising Clark in this thread. Unless you can quote me differently... I'm pretty much burned out on this topic

:dork:

[AlanC]

Well...I do like and respect Wesley Clark. And I do think his pov should be at least acknowledged, every bit as much as Limbaugh's or Beck's about John McCain. At least, those three .... and others from both sides of the aisle don't think his experience and what he's espoused measures up to being CIC material.

So I posted his pov here.. Anyway... I've spent more time talking shit about Limbaugh than praising Clark in this thread. Unless you can quote me differently... I'm pretty much burned out on this topic

:dork:

I would say you are correct and its all been adequately covered.

[Trish]

He and his caller used the plural... soldier(s). He backtracked later. couple of minutes.. to qualify it as if he was referencing only one guy, MacBeth. He wasn't, got busted... end of story.

MacBeth... is one issue. We all condemn that incident. Done deal. What Limbaugh did was use the word... soldiers in plural... and left off talking specifically about MacBeth until later.




Not true. But if your input is from pro-limbaugh sources (Fox) I can see why you'd say that.

There were people in the military who petitioned to have him removed from radio. It created a huge controversy and much anger among soldiers opposed to the Iraq war. Don't make me post all the commentary, videos and speeches. They heard it, they reacted... Limbaugh fucked up, realized it and played cover a few minutes after.

Fine... McBeth was a fraud. Call him on it. But don't use plural if you're talking about just one person... and Limbaugh and his caller did use the plural.

You people will believe and spin this the way you want. But, many soldiers opposed to the war heard it like it was and objected to it.



Sorry, Sue, but you're just plain wrong. Yes, the plural was used. There was no "backtracking" however to qualify the remark as pertaining to only Macbeth.

Here is a Morning Update (http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_092407/content/01125101.member.html) that we did recently, talking about fake soldiers. This is a story of who the left props up as heroes. They have their celebrities and one of them was Army Ranger Jesse Macbeth.

Note the continuing use of the plural "soldierS". Of those phony/fake soldiers Macbeth is identified as "one of them." Clearly Limbaugh is referring to not only Macbeth but other individuals who either pretend to be soldiers or those soldiers who pretend to have experience they do not have. I have posted articles on this forum about other "phony" or "fake" soldiers and the military's crackdown on prosecuting them. Macbeth is by no means the only one out there. He's just one of the latest to be outed. There is no backtracking in the original transcript. Rather there is a progression in discussion with an example given of Macbeth as a phony soldier. Macbeth was never meant to be portrayed as the "only" phony soldier, just one of many.

Fox News may well be pro-Limbaugh as you assert. However, anyone with elementary reading comprehension skills should be able to read the transcript in its entirety and figure out what was said and what wasn't despite what Fox, Mediamatters or any other media outlet reported. Mediamatters counted on people not questioning them when it did such a piss poor job on their chopped up video attack. Mediamatters apparently had the analysis of their audience pretty well down pat - as long as it's an attack ad against someone like Limbaugh or Bush, people are all too eager to accept trash as the truth or they are simply too damn lazy to take the time to investigate for themselves. Or what may be worse, they don't care if it is a lie as long as it damages their "enemy." It's just too easy and convenient to allow Mediamatters (or Fox News if you will) to spoon feed folks.

So sorry....you're just plain wrong on this one and I believe you owe BoogyMan an admission of that fact. I did, after all, provide a link where Limbaugh identified Macbeth as 'one" of the phony soldiers just as you requested.

[preservanation]

I do like and respect Wesley Clark. And I do think his pov should be at least acknowledged, every bit as much as Limbaugh's or Beck's about John McCain.Wow...that's a keeper.

[Invayne]

Wow...that's a keeper.

Must have been a typo...

[preservanation]

Must have been a typo...Momentary lapse of discipline.
I'm sure sue has been whisked away by the liberal truth squad and is spending the weekend in a reeducation camp to re familiarize her with the patented talking points. Can't have people ad libbing like that.
Not good for the herd.
I hope the drug and aversion therapy isn't too extensive this time.

[Invayne]

Momentary lapse of discipline.
I'm sure sue has been whisked away by the liberal truth squad and is spending the weekend in a reeducation camp to re familiarize her with the patented talking points. Can't have people ad libbing like that.
Not good for the herd.
I hope the drug and aversion therapy isn't too extensive this time.

Must be double doses...she hasn't been back!:madlaugh:

[suedanim]

Must be double doses...she hasn't been back!:madlaugh:

Don't be so sure of yourself. :grrrr:

btw... preserva.. as a moderator even YOU should know that attacking the poster instead of the post shows extremely bad debate board ethics. I really don't expect people like the above poster to show any class or even the ability to contribute anything worthwhile to the conversation, if you don't. But I have come to expect better from you.

I've also come to understand that at least on this site... Limbaugh will be defended by the sycophants regardless. Its not that I have agreed or capitulated to the ridiculous explanations aka spin offered by his ... usual.. defenders. Its simply there is no point and frankly its a waste of my time to continue with the same debate we've had before. In other words... you people are not worth it.

In addition... one only has to google to see that there were many Iraq War veterans and officers who heard Limbaugh's and his callers words just as I have interpreted them here and who have challenged him on it. Thats good enough for me.

Whatever....

Thankfully, those brave and undeterred veterans are working hard to insure Barack Obama is the next Commander in Chief. The military of the United States will once again be headed by sane, responsible adults who will NOT put our young men and women in uniform in harms way as police enforcers over the world for the protection of one tiny nation that has a massive nuclear arsenal or to continue to line the pockets of the wealthy.

If you have a response to that... attack the post... not the poster.

Thanks.

[Invayne]

Don't be so sure of yourself. :grrrr:

btw... preserva.. as a moderator even YOU should know that attacking the poster instead of the post shows extremely bad debate board ethics. I really don't expect people like the above poster to show any class or even the ability to contribute anything worthwhile to the conversation, if you don't. But I have come to expect better from you.

I've also come to understand that at least on this site... Limbaugh will be defended by the sycophants regardless. Its not that I have agreed or capitulated to the ridiculous explanations aka spin offered by his ... usual.. defenders. Its simply there is no point and frankly its a waste of my time to continue with the same debate we've had before. In other words... you people are not worth it.

In addition... one only has to google to see that there were many Iraq War veterans and officers who heard Limbaugh's and his callers words just as I have interpreted them here and who have challenged him on it. Thats good enough for me.

Whatever....

Thankfully, those brave and undeterred veterans are working hard to insure Barack Obama is the next Commander in Chief. The military of the United States will once again be headed by sane, responsible adults who will NOT put our young men and women in uniform in harms way as police enforcers over the world for the protection of one tiny nation that has a massive nuclear arsenal or to continue to line the pockets of the wealthy.

If you have a response to that... attack the post... not the poster.

Thanks.

Whew! Leftists have no sense of humor!:madlaugh:

[Invayne]

I've also come to understand that at least on this site... Limbaugh will be defended by the sycophants regardless. Its not that I have agreed or capitulated to the ridiculous explanations aka spin offered by his ... usual.. defenders. Its simply there is no point and frankly its a waste of my time to continue with the same debate we've had before. In other words... you people are not worth it.



Attack the post, not the posters. Maybe some people should take their own advice.

[heyjude]

Yes, that does show lack of character, although if he was unconscious, he might not have remembered WHO saved him. And it did say that stories like that were floating around everywhere, so maybe he didn't know who to believe.


I don't care if someone screws sheep as long as the sheep are enjoying it.

And I promise I won't bring up the fact that Clinton sold secrets to the Chinese and laid the groundwork for 9/11, among other things.:innocent:

Just for the record, Clinton made a deal with China, and the terms of the deal is that the information they received stayed in this country. George W. Bush changed the terms of the deal allowing the Chinese to take the information out of this country, so that a big American corporation could made a few more gazillion dollars. I think it was GE, but won't swear to the name of the company.

[suedanim]

Attack the post, not the posters. Maybe some people should take their own advice.

Maybe. But then again... thats exactly what I was doing.

:thumbsup:

[Invayne]

Wow. Do you have a link to that info? Preferably unbiased.

That's a question for Heyjude...sorry Sue, we posted simultaneously!

[NIOSA]

So um, anybody heard from Wesley Clark lately? Has he shot his mouth off anymore?
Anybody hear the latest from Bill Clinton speaking in Aspen? He just doesn't know when to shut up.
He said, best I can remember, "If anybody knows a person that has been a POW"....then he went on to talk about how a former POWs temper could get the best of him. Hinting at McCain no doubt.
I'm beginning to wonder if some of these "democrat gods" are trying to sabotage Obamas campaign....just wonderin, mind you.

Mod Notice from BoogyMan: Please follow forum posting rules. "11. All proper names of political figures should be spelled correctly. Nicknames like Hitlary or Chimpy are unacceptable." (http://www.democracyforums.com/showthread.php?t=11114)

Names have been fixed to follow forum rules.

[Invayne]

So um, anybody heard from Wesley Clark lately? Has he shot his mouth off anymore?
Anybody hear the latest from Bill Clinton speaking in Aspen? He just doesn't know when to shut up.
He said, best I can remember, "If anybody knows a person that has been a POW"....then he went on to talk about how a former POWs temper could get the best of him. Hinting at McCain no doubt.
I'm beginning to wonder if some of these "democrat gods" are trying to sabotage Obamas campaign....just wonderin, mind you.



Yeah, gotta watch out for them POWs...and vets, too. They're all crazy baby killers.

I wonder how that compares to the temper of a dope smoking draft dodger?