The Religion of Peace 3

[apdst]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article4254225.ece

A Palestinian construction worker in a digger went on a rampage in central Jerusalem yesterday, killing at least three people and injuring 45.

Hossam Dwayyat, a 31-year-old Arab resident of east Jerusalem, wrought havoc on one of the city’s main thoroughfares, driving into oncoming traffic and leaving a trail of mangled vehicles in his wake.

He was caught on film as onlookers saw him take the digger from his construction site and crash through cars queueing on Jaffa Street. He overturned one bus and struck another before being shot dead by security officers.

“I saw him coming towards me and I froze,” said Chava Shimoni, a 24-year-old student who was making her way to lunch. “I could see his eyes and he looked so focused. A man shoved me out of the way — it was a miracle that I survived.” Ms Shimoni was one of dozens of people who rushed to the victims of the attack, helping screaming passengers out of the overturned bus and passing water bottles to those in shock.

All three of those killed were women. Their bodies were covered in plastic sheets as they lay trapped in the debris of their vehicles. One was reported to have saved her baby girl’s life by throwing her out of the window seconds before the bulldozer hit.

Dwayyat, who had a criminal record, was working legally on a building site near the central bus station when he turned his digger into oncoming traffic on Jaffa Street.

He wrecked half a dozen cars and hit a bus before aiming his vehicle at another bus full of commuters. He used the digger’s massive scoop to overturn the bus and rammed its side.

A number of armed men, including police officers, off-duty soldiers and civilians, momentarily stopped him by opening fire. At least three then jumped on to the digger as Dwayyat slumped over the steering wheel, apparently incapacitated. But he came to and the bulldozer lurched forward before Moshe Plesser, an off-duty soldier who had climbed to the side of the vehicle, shot him at close range.

“He yelled ‘Allahu akhbar!’ and hit the gas,” Mr Plesser said. “I did what is expected of any soldier or civilian.”

Eli Mizrahi, an officer in a special anti-terrorist unit, then fired several more shots. “I ran up the stairs [of the vehicle] and, when he was still driving like crazy and trying to harm civilians, I fired at him twice more and, that’s it, he was liquidated,” Mr Mizrahi said. Dwayyat’s body could be seen lying outside the door of the digger with blood at his feet.

Three Palestinian militant groups — the al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigade, the Galilee Freedom Battalion and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine — claimed responsibility for the attack, although Israeli police said initial evidence suggested that Dwayyat was a “terrorist acting on his own”. Hamas, which has a fragile ceasefire with Israel, did not take responsibility, but praised the attack as a “natural reaction” to Israeli aggression.

It is the first major attack on Jerusalem since March, when Alaa Abu Dhein, a 25-year-old resident of east Jerusalem, attacked the Mercaz Harav seminary. Police said that the attacks could mark a trend in Arab residents from the city’s east using their ID cards and freedom of travel to carry out attacks in Jewish neighbourhoods.

An Israeli Foreign Ministry official said that recent peace moves could be damaged. “We are trying to convince the people that we need a ceasefire with Hamas in Gaza, and that we need to strengthen Fatah in the West Bank . . . Each attack furthers the public perception that no peace can be established with the Arabs,” he said.

David Miliband, the Foreign Secretary, called the attack horrific. “Our first thought is for the victims and the relatives of the victims,” he said. “Our second thought is obviously for the process of building a Middle East peace that’s enduring.”

Dwayyat’s family, including his wife and two children, were questioned by police. Tayseer Dwayyat, his father, said: “My son never spoke of plans to carry out such an attack. If he had I would have tried to prevent it.”

Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, has begun efforts to raze Dwayyat’s home and stop social security benefits to his family. The Israeli parliament also passed a first reading of a Bill to revoke the citizenship of anyone convicted of terrorist activity.

[PatrickHenry]

Which has exactly what to do with your topic title, apdst?

This is FP (for a lying title) unless you wish to make a point about the man's religion which is absent in the quoted article.

[Elrathin]

Which has exactly what to do with your topic title, apdst?

This is FP (for a lying title) unless you wish to make a point about the man's religion which is absent in the quoted article.

Well it sorta does by the quote below.

“He yelled ‘Allahu akhbar!’ and hit the gas,” Mr Plesser said

Which I think translates into something like "Allah is the Greatest" or something like that. Jafar would probably know for sure, I'm not good with translations.

It's hinting that he did this for his religion.

[ptif219]

A Palestinian in Jerusalem and any one has to wonder why he did it?

[lily]

To get their land back?

[ptif219]

To get their land back?

Terrorism and you justify it with crap.Then you should leave and give your land back to the indians.

So don't seek peace terrorism will be justified.What crap liberals once again showing they support terrorism.

[micfranklin]

Another example of one trying to blame the whole religion or group for the acts of an individual.

Pitiful.

[Phyxius]

Because we all know an American would NEVER do something like this... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Heemeyer) http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/Hasatude5150/beatinoff.gif


Oh, wait - an American thought of it FIRST. Would they be justified in invading our land and deposing our government now? http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/Hasatude5150/ohsnap.gif

[Buck Laser]

How DARE you mention anybody but a Muslim doing something like this, Phyxius?:eek:

[Phyxius]

How DARE you mention anybody but a Muslim doing something like this, Phyxius?:eek:

Yeah, I know - my bad. Can't have anything that might actually look BALANCED around here. Might make our resident Reich-wingers' wittle heads implode... http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/Hasatude5150/blowup.gif

[heyjude]

Listening to C-SPAN this AM, I heard that 85% of the people who live in the ME believe the US is trying to destroy Islam. What has Bush done? We are going to spend centuries trying to undo the damage.

[ptif219]

Listening to C-SPAN this AM, I heard that 85% of the people who live in the ME believe the US is trying to destroy Islam. What has Bush done? We are going to spend centuries trying to undo the damage.

Thats crap they attack us and its our fault.They have been terrorist since Mohammad.In the 700,s they attacked Europe.But I guess their history doesn't matter.All that matters is hate Bush,Hate the US an blame the US first.

[Wndrtch]

Listening to C-SPAN this AM, I heard that 85% of the people who live in the ME believe the US is trying to destroy Islam. What has Bush done? We are going to spend centuries trying to undo the damage.

"Heyjude, don't be afraid..." :love:

85% of the ME, lives under "controlled media". "Freedom of the Press" only exists for those that attack the US in print & video.

Everyone else, is executed.

Another interesting point, if someone in the US took a poll of Americans and asked if they felt that "Islam" was trying to destroy the Western culture, what do you think the results would be?

I bet a poll like this would be labled "racists" by the Left.

[apdst]

Listening to C-SPAN this AM, I heard that 85% of the people who live in the ME believe the US is trying to destroy Islam.

If we're not trying to destroy Islam, then we should be. Islam is as big a scurge as the Nazis and the Commies.

[heyjude]

I guess you all have made the Middle Easterners case.

[Shoey]

I have come to the conclusion that "radical" Islam desires to conquer the world through violence.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=evwB7YYVgIo

^ Nonie Darwish (Arabic: نوني درويش) (born 1948[1]) is an Egyptian-born American writer and public speaker. She is the author of the book Now they Call Me Infidel; Why I Renounced Jihad for America, Israel and the War on Terror. Her second book out in November 2008 is "Cruel And Usual Punishment: The Terrifying Global Effects of Sharia Law". She is also a public speaker and founder of Arabs for Israel.[2] She states her mission is to "promote reconciliation, acceptance and understanding" between Israelis and Arabs.



http://youtube.com/watch?v=HO74GwUTZj4

^ "Radical" Muslims protesting in the streets of New York.

[preservanation]

A 7th century nutcase group of people who will stop at nothing to destroy the west.
This is not hard to understand.

We have to exercise our God given right to defend ourselves against the Hate and Destruction these Scruffy Barbarians want to inflict upon us all.

Allah Akbar my lily white ass!

[Elrathin]

If we're not trying to destroy Islam, then we should be.

So you are for rounding up every single Muslim in the world (man woman, child, and eldery person that follows Islam) and then killing them. Nice

[Phyxius]

So you are for rounding up every single Muslim in the world (man woman, child, and eldery person that follows Islam) and then killing them. Nice

We don't call 'em Reich-wingers for nothing, El... :madlaugh:

[jafar00]

I love you too apdst :D

[Buck Laser]

I love you too apdst :D

Yeah, apdst is a real cool guy. :sick::sick:

[PatrickHenry]

IMO, this hate thread is based upon the false premise that the murderer was religious, not just insane.

And that was unproved and was not even attempted.

Therefore this is just a hit piece against a world religion that has no basis in fact.

Not what I would want on my front page, if I owned the forum.

How about if we attack Jews? See?

[apdst]

Islam has declared war on us. The sooner you realize that, the better off we'll all be.

So you are for rounding up every single Muslim in the world (man woman, child, and eldery person that follows Islam) and then killing them. Nice

Are you able to think rationally? Or are you just trying to push buttons? Did we round every German and kill them to defeat Nazism?

[Elrathin]

Islam has declared war on us. The sooner you realize that, the better off we'll all be.

Really? So every Muslim has declared war on us? Talk about Paranoia.


Are you able to think rationally? Or are you just trying to push buttons? Did we round every German and kill them to defeat Nazism?

Naziism was nowhere near the same as Islam. So how are you going to defeat Islam then, you know, the number one fastest growing religion?

Tell us your solution? Throw bombs at it? LOL.

[apdst]

Really? So every Muslim has declared war on us? Talk about Paranoia.

Did every German declare war on us?

Naziism was nowhere near the same as Islam.

You're right. Islam is far worse.

[Elrathin]

Did every German declare war on us?

Not all Germans were Nazis, but you said Islam has declared war on us which means all members of Islam.


You're right. Islam is far worse.

So what is your solution then if not killing the Muslims?

[apdst]

Islam has declared war on us which means all members of Islam.

Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all Muslims condone terrorism.

[Elrathin]

Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all Muslims condone terrorism.

Proof? My neighbor is a Muslim, how does he condone terrorism?

You still haven't said what your solution is besides killing Muslims. My guess is that was your solution lol.

[apdst]

My neighbor is a Muslim, how does he condone terrorism?

How am I supposed to know? I haven't talked to him to know what the hell he condones and condemns.

You still haven't said what your solution is besides killing Muslims.

Declare war on Islam. Those who fight us are the bad guys. Those who don't are the good guys. It ain't hard to figger out. That's the way it's been done for several millenia now.

Muslims don't distinguish between good and bad non-muslims. They hate everyone who isn't a moose-lim.

[micfranklin]

If we're not trying to destroy Islam, then we should be. Islam is as big a scurge as the Nazis and the Commies.

Why? Because you can't see the difference between an individual and a group?

[Elrathin]

How am I supposed to know? I haven't talked to him to know what the hell he condones and condemns.

Then why did you say this if you don't know him?


Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all Muslims condone terrorism.

Do you know what you are even talking about here, or do you just hate all Muslims?


Declare war on Islam. Those who fight us are the bad guys. Those who don't are the good guys. It ain't hard to figger out. That's the way it's been done for several millenia now.

When you declare war on Islam, you are saying that EVERYONE that follows Islam should be fought.


Muslims don't distinguish between good and bad non-muslims. They hate everyone who isn't a moose-lim.

You just got done saying that you don't know every Muslim, so how can you make such a generalization of all Muslims that they all hate non-Muslims. Sheez

Let us know when you make up your mind lol.

[4Reaganomics]

Elrathin

Is supporting the destruction of infidels condoning terrorism? Its not too absurd of an assertion on the part of apdst.

[tecoyah]

I have two good friends who are Islamic...one devout.

Neither are Terrorists, one is a software designer, the other a postman.


Anyone who has read the Ku'ran, and the Bible as well...could decide to enact terror based on Gods Word. This does not mean they will.

[apdst]

There are NO legions of Muslims forming to stop Islamic extremism. There are more Muslims that support it, or at the minimum say and do nothing, than there are that are actively fighting against it.

There's a young Muslim man that works at my company. After 9/11, he and his wife, being fluent in several Mid-East dialects, both volunteered their services to the FBI as translaters. They didn't want money, they wanted to simply volunteer their linguistic skills in any way they could, because they love their country.

It wasn't long before word got out that they had done this. Not long after that they were kicked out of their mosque. They go to a Baptist church, now, because neither of the two Mosques in the area will let them on the property. They've both denounced Islam, since.

I know all about Islam I need to know.

I'll be waiting for you to show us all those anti-terrorist Muslim armies that are fighting to the death to kill the terrorists.

[Shoey]

I have two good friends who are Islamic...one devout.

Ask your Muslim friends WHO are the "kafir" or the "infidel" and what do those terms actually mean?

Ask your Muslim friends why are non Muslims considered "filth" on Muslim soil?
(America welcomes Muslims with open arms)

Ask your Muslim friend if a Muslim decides to leave Islam is that punishable by death?

Ask your Muslim friends what religion is the "superior" religion???

[4Reaganomics]

Any religion that uses force to keep members from their individual right to chose and practice what they believe is creating terror.

It is Castro type behavior to force people who are born into a situation (muslim) to remain in that situation and be punished by death in an attempt to leave that situation.

It is pure terror

[Invayne]

There's a young Muslim man that works at my company. After 9/11, he and his wife, being fluent in several Mid-East dialects, both volunteered their services to the FBI as translaters. They didn't want money, they wanted to simply volunteer their linguistic skills in any way they could, because they love their country.

It wasn't long before word got out that they had done this. Not long after that they were kicked out of their mosque. They go to a Baptist church, now, because neither of the two Mosques in the area will let them on the property. They've both denounced Islam, since.



Leaving Islam is punishable by death. I'm surprised they're still alive. I wish them luck.

[Phyxius]

Any religion that uses force to keep members from their individual right to chose and practice what they believe is creating terror.

It is Castro type behavior to force people who are born into a situation (muslim) to remain in that situation and be punished by death in an attempt to leave that situation.

It is pure terror

Two words: Spanish Inquisition :shame:

[4Reaganomics]

because I really support that one as well!!!! nice work

[Elrathin]

Elrathin

Is supporting the destruction of infidels condoning terrorism? Its not too absurd of an assertion on the part of apdst.

My neighbor and many other Muslims do NOT support the destruction of infidels.

[Elrathin]

I know all about Islam I need to know.

Obviously not, because you throw out generalization about ALL Muslims and then whn you are challeged to show this proof you back down and just say you know all you need to know about Islam.

No wonder the U.S. is known for some of the most ignorant people in the world. Most know nothing about the other world just "U.S. #1" and that's all they can spout off.

In all the Muslims I have come across in the U.S. personally, I have not seen the hate from them as I have from people on this board towards Muslims. Pathetic.

[Shoey]

Obviously not, because you throw out generalization about ALL Muslims and then whn you are challeged to show this proof you back down and just say you know all you need to know about Islam.

Fair enough. Now if the christian opposes the practice of the sexual immoral which by the way the bible condemns does that mean ALL christians "hate" homosexuals? Does not Islam condemn homosexuality? Seems to me there is this double standard among the Liberal crowd at political forums I frequently visit. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HO74GwUTZj4

^ Peaceful Muslims protesting in the streets of New York in 2005. Notice the Muslims make the claim that Islam is the ONLY "superior" religion.

[Elrathin]

Fair enough. Now if the christian opposes the practice of the sexual immoral which by the way the bible condemns does that mean ALL christians "hate" homosexuals?

Depends on how they go about doing it. If they voice their opinion that it is a sin, that is fine. However, anything further than it can be. For example, beating the shit out of a homosexual because they oppose homosexuality is wrong obviously.


Does not Islam condemn homosexuality?

Yep, they do.


Seems to me there is this double standard among the Liberal crowd at political forums I frequently visit. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

Nope, not at all. And in some Muslim countries (Iran) their treatment of homosexuals by making it illegal is wrong. However, that is not ALL MUSLIMS. What I get tired of hearing is people claiming all Muslims are nothing but head chopping terrorists that hate the U.S. That simply is not true.

[micfranklin]

Oh and for the record, most Islamic governments like the Saudi government are Muslims fighting terrorism and the whole myth about leaving Islam being a death sentence is taken way out of context.

[ptif219]

So you are for rounding up every single Muslim in the world (man woman, child, and eldery person that follows Islam) and then killing them. Nice

No more then you want all right wingers and christians freedom of speech taken away.

[Elrathin]

No more then you want all right wingers and christians freedom of speech taken away.

Can you show where I have said anything like that? I've not said anyone is not allowed to speak. However, they are not free from criticism of that speech.

So I'll be waiting for you to actually show proof of your allegations against me.

[ptif219]

Can you show where I have said anything like that? I've not said anyone is not allowed to speak. However, they are not free from criticism of that speech.

So I'll be waiting for you to actually show proof of your allegations against me.

Do you support the fairnes doctrine and the aclu's form of separation of church and state.

[Elrathin]

Do you support the fairnes doctrine and the aclu's form of separation of church and state.

No I do not support the fairness doctrine and the separation of church and state is to keep government forcing policy on churches (such as making churches marry gays) and it is also for churches (that are under tax free status) from using their pulpit as an election headquarters.

I'll tell you what, have the churches give up their tax free status, and I will not have ANY problem whatsoever with them getting involved in the government. Of course that means the government then can force policies on them. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Now, please prove your allegations that I am saying that people can't speak?

[ptif219]

No I do not support the fairness doctrine and the separation of church and state is to keep government forcing policy on churches (such as making churches marry gays) and it is also for churches (that are under tax free status) from using their pulpit as an election headquarters.

I'll tell you what, have the churches give up their tax free status, and I will not have ANY problem whatsoever with them getting involved in the government. Of course that means the government then can force policies on them. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Now, please prove your allegations that I am saying that people can't speak?

So then when a high school graduate thanks God in a speech and the school shuts off the mike that is taking away her freedom of speech.How is that separation of church and state.

Notice how the left has perverted separation of church and state to mean something it was never meant to be.I also notice there is a different standard for other religions.

I am surprised as a liberal you don't want the fairness doctrine.

[Elrathin]

So then when a high school graduate thanks God in a speech and the school shuts off the mike that is taking away her freedom of speech.How is that separation of church and state.

That is not something I support, and at the high school graduation I went to this year for my nephew, the valedictorian thanked God and her family without being silenced, so please show me the law that was used to silence her or whether it was just administration judgment. Either way, I've never claimed support for such a thing.


Notice how the left has perverted separation of church and state to mean something it was never meant to be.I also notice there is a different standard for other religions.

I am surprised as a liberal you don't want the fairness doctrine.

Why would I want the fairness doctrine? At the time of its creation there was limited public media and now there is almost unlimited given the internet.

You still have not shown where I personally have said for people to be silenced. Care to back that up that claim with some actual proof, or finally admit it was nothing but BS rhetoric from you?

[ptif219]

That is not something I support, and at the high school graduation I went to this year for my nephew, the valedictorian thanked God and her family without being silenced, so please show me the law that was used to silence her or whether it was just administration judgment. Either way, I've never claimed support for such a thing.



Why would I want the fairness doctrine? At the time of its creation there was limited public media and now there is almost unlimited given the internet.

You still have not shown where I personally have said for people to be silenced. Care to back that up that claim with some actual proof, or finally admit it was nothing but BS rhetoric from you?

Ok then you really are not as liberal as you appear.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13461308/
Clark County School District officials and a lawyer with the American Civil Liberties Union say administrators followed federal law when they cut the microphone on Foothill High School valedictorian Brittany McComb as she began deviating from a pre-approved speech and reading from a version that mentioned God and contained biblical references



http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/commentary.aspx?id=17332

[Elrathin]

Ok then you really are not as liberal as you appear.


I'm actually quite liberal, I think for myself ;)

Ptif, regarding your first link, as I suspected, it was an ADMINISTRATIVE DECISION of the school. Right or wrong, that was a school decision, not federal one. There is no federal law that says a student can't thank God at a graduation speech.

Regarding your second link,it is also an administrative issue that the school decided.

I for one am against a teacher forcing prayer upon students, however, I am not against bible clubs being allowed in school. There is a time and place for certain speech.

I am not allowed to go into a church to try and sell people an item while there is a service going on. Does that mean the church is trying to silence me? No, it means that there is a time and place and for me selling something, during a service going on in the church is not a good time.

[Phyxius]

I'm actually quite liberal, I think for myself ;)

Ptif, regarding your first link, as I suspected, it was an ADMINISTRATIVE DECISION of the school. Right or wrong, that was a school decision, not federal one. There is no federal law that says a student can't thank God at a graduation speech.

Regarding your second link,it is also an administrative issue that the school decided.

I for one am against a teacher forcing prayer upon students, however, I am not against bible clubs being allowed in school. There is a time and place for certain speech.

I am not allowed to go into a church to try and sell people an item while there is a service going on. Does that mean the church is trying to silence me? No, it means that there is a time and place and for me selling something, during a service going on in the church is not a good time.


http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/Hasatude5150/applause.gif

[ptif219]

I'm actually quite liberal, I think for myself ;)

Ptif, regarding your first link, as I suspected, it was an ADMINISTRATIVE DECISION of the school. Right or wrong, that was a school decision, not federal one. There is no federal law that says a student can't thank God at a graduation speech.

Notice the ACLU said the school followed federal law.


Regarding your second link,it is also an administrative issue that the school

decided.

Doesn't matter this clearly goes against freespeech


I for one am against a teacher forcing prayer upon students, however, I am not against bible clubs being allowed in school. There is a time and place for certain speech.

I am not allowed to go into a church to try and sell people an item while there is a service going on. Does that mean the church is trying to silence me? No, it means that there is a time and place and for me selling something, during a service going on in the church is not a good time.

Be careful though Obama may change the way a church can or cannot hire.

[Elrathin]

Notice the ACLU said the school followed federal law.

The ACLU is not the federal government. However, the school administration wasn't challenged. And since it does happen elsewhere, it is proof it is a school administration issue.



Doesn't matter this clearly goes against freespeech


So you are for a teacher preaching in public schools? Sorry, if I can't sell items in the church during one of your services, why should a teacher be able to preach during class to her kids?

Your example is not against freespeech.

Yet again though, this is a school administration issue and not federal one.


Be careful though Obama may change the way a church can or cannot hire.

Paranoia at it's finest. It isn't law now nor will it be.

So are you willing yet to say your accusation against me is false?

[ptif219]

The ACLU is not the federal government. However, the school administration wasn't challenged. And since it does happen elsewhere, it is proof it is a school administration issue.




So you are for a teacher preaching in public schools? Sorry, if I can't sell items in the church during one of your services, why should a teacher be able to preach during class to her kids?

Your example is not against freespeech.

This is not about a teacher.This is about a student being denied the right to sing a song of choice in an after school talent contest.

Paranoia at it's finest. It isn't law now nor will it be.

So are you willing yet to say your accusation against me is false?

What accusation?It is not law but if Obama becomes president and the dems hold the majority in congress it is possible.

[DamnYankee]

The Religion of Peace 3

They have been practicing their religion of peace on each other for centuries. The more they kill of each other, the less we will have to kill later.

[Invayne]

the whole myth about leaving Islam being a death sentence is taken way out of context.

Funny, I have a friend who is Muslim that told me it is punishable by death to leave Islam, even though he would never seriously think that way.

[micfranklin]

Funny, I have a friend who is Muslim that told me it is punishable by death to leave Islam, even though he would never seriously think that way.

Odd because I know somebody who is also Muslim and says that the "punishable by death" is applied in certain circumstances, like when it threatens the Muslim community. Not only that, but there's no real mention anywhere in the Koran of executing people for this.

[jafar00]

Odd because I know somebody who is also Muslim and says that the "punishable by death" is applied in certain circumstances, like when it threatens the Muslim community. Not only that, but there's no real mention anywhere in the Koran of executing people for this.

That's right Mic. The death penalty can only be applied if there is a serious case of treason along with the apostasy. The Qur'aan doesn't say execute apostates, and the only hadiths to mention it are more about treason than apostasy.

Sorry, but the right wingers of the thread will have to try harder than that to discredit Islam. Word of advice to them, don't quote your right winger websites. They are based more on ignorant opinion and flawed interpretation of other interpretations than any actual facts.

[DamnYankee]

I wouldn't want to find out if I were a muslim living under Sharia Law.

[Wndrtch]

That's right Mic. The death penalty can only be applied if there is a serious case of treason along with the apostasy. The Qur'aan doesn't say execute apostates, and the only hadiths to mention it are more about treason than apostasy.

Sorry, but the right wingers of the thread will have to try harder than that to discredit Islam. Word of advice to them, don't quote your right winger websites. They are based more on ignorant opinion and flawed interpretation of other interpretations than any actual facts.

This CON doesn't want to discredit Islam, but I do acknowledge that the 911 terrorists were motivated (wrongly) by Islamic text, just as early Christians used Biblical text to justify horrendous acts against their fellow man (which is counter to the teachings of Christ).

We are fighting people motivated by an extreme interpretation of Islam, who use that interpretation to justify murder. I am not saying that ALL Muslims are terrorists or that Islam is "bad", only that is being misused for evil purposes by a few very bad people. If you can't at least come to grips with that much intellectually, the terrorists win.

[ptif219]

That's right Mic. The death penalty can only be applied if there is a serious case of treason along with the apostasy. The Qur'aan doesn't say execute apostates, and the only hadiths to mention it are more about treason than apostasy.

Sorry, but the right wingers of the thread will have to try harder than that to discredit Islam. Word of advice to them, don't quote your right winger websites. They are based more on ignorant opinion and flawed interpretation of other interpretations than any actual facts.

Seems to me leaving would make you an infidel and they want to kill the infidels

[micfranklin]

Seems to me leaving would make you an infidel and they want to kill the infidels

I could've sworn I said execution was only applied in certain circumstances.

[jafar00]

I wouldn't want to find out if I were a muslim living under Sharia Law.

I am a Muslim, living under Sharia Law and everything is find and dandy thankyou.

Seems to me leaving would make you an infidel and they want to kill the infidels

Who wants to kill the "infidels"?

I could've sworn I said execution was only applied in certain circumstances.

Indeed you did, but nobody heard.

[ptif219]

I could've sworn I said execution was only applied in certain circumstances.

Funny how you miss the point.Was 911 done to kill infidels?

[micfranklin]

Funny how you miss the point.Was 911 done to kill infidels?

No. What's 9/11 got to do with leaving Islam?

[Wndrtch]

I am a Muslim, living under Sharia Law and everything is find and dandy thankyou.

Jafar00,

You say you are living under Sharia Law. Does that mean Egypt is a theocracy? I thought they were a Constitutional Republic?

[ptif219]

[QUOTE=jafar00;210164]I am a Muslim, living under Sharia Law and everything is find and dandy thankyou.



Who wants to kill the "infidels"?



Radical muslims



http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/07/15/pakistan.pearl.verdict/index.html


The British-born Islamic militant convicted of the kidnapping and slaying of U.S. reporter Daniel Pearl has lashed out at his death sentence and threatened retaliation by calling for a Muslim uprising.

Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh was sentenced by an anti-terrorism court in the southern city of Hyderabad, 160 kilometres (100 miles) northeast of Karachi, on Monday. Three accomplices received life sentences on charges of conspiracy, kidnapping for ransom, murder and the disruption of evidence.

"I will see whether who wants to kill me will first kill me or get himself killed," Saeed Sheikh said in a statement released through an attorney.

"It is decisive war between Islam and Kafir [infidels or non-Muslims] and everyone is individually proving on which side he is."

[ptif219]

No. What's 9/11 got to do with leaving Islam?

If you don't know than I can't help you

[micfranklin]

If you don't know than I can't help you

I don't know. Enlighten me then, because I thought 9/11 was because OBL thought we needed to stay out of the Middle East and not because we don't have a 100% Islamic society.

[ptif219]

I don't know. Enlighten me then, because I thought 9/11 was because OBL thought we needed to stay out of the Middle East and not because we don't have a 100% Islamic society.

So it was not about killing the infidel?

[micfranklin]

So it was not about killing the infidel?

No.

[ptif219]

No.

Explain

[micfranklin]

Explain

9/11 was because OBL was unhappy with the way the U.S. supported Israel and Israel happened to be "killing his people."

[ptif219]

9/11 was because OBL was unhappy with the way the U.S. supported Israel and Israel happened to be "killing his people."

Show proof

[Shoey]

I don't know. Enlighten me then, because I thought 9/11 was because OBL thought we needed to stay out of the Middle East and not because we don't have a 100% Islamic society.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm resolved to believe it was the USA that armed the Muslims in the 1980's (Charlie Wilson's War) against Russia. Had not America aided the Muslims Afghanistan "might" still be Russia controlled today. Did America get a "thank you" from the Muslims for that? NO, the extreme Muslims bombed WTC #1, U.S. Embassies, the U.S. Cole! What is the "kafir" according to Islam? Are the "kafir" innocent? I have come to the conclusion that "radical" Muslims intends to Islamize the world through violence.

[micfranklin]

Show proof

I don't know why I should have to but, here ya go. Even better OBL said it himself.

I think this particular quote from the link says it all:
Terrorism against America deserves to be praised because it was a response to injustice, aimed at forcing America to stop its support for Israel, which kills our people.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1729882.stm

[Wndrtch]

9/11 was because OBL was unhappy with the way the U.S. supported Israel and Israel happened to be "killing his people."

Israel is a factor, but a small one.

His real issue is forcing "The West" out of the ME, economically. If he/they can do that, then that will weaken the secular Arab governments, and allow the fanatics to topple those states and replace them with Theocracies, much like Iran. Their goal is to have "Muslim Law" rule over all Muslims everywhere, and eventually all people everywhere.

[Buck Laser]

Show proof

Ptif, I don't tink dat word means what you tink it means.

[Shoey]

I don't know why I should have to but, here ya go. Even better OBL said it himself.

I think this particular quote from the link says it all:

Wild guess, you have NO condemnation for Muslims killing innocent Jews????
PLO,AQ, Hamas, Hezbollah ring a bell?

[ptif219]

I don't know why I should have to but, here ya go. Even better OBL said it himself.

I think this particular quote from the link says it all:

So then it is because we defend the infidels the Jews who muslims hate.

[micfranklin]

Wild guess, you have NO condemnation for Muslims killing innocent Jews????
PLO,AQ, Hamas, Hezbollah ring a bell?

Now how did you arrive at that assumption?

So then it is because we defend the infidels the Jews who muslims hate.

In Osama's eyes, yes.

[ptif219]

Now how did you arrive at that assumption?



In Osama's eyes, yes.

So then he also sees us as infidels hence the attacks on us is because we are infidels.

[micfranklin]

So then he also sees us as infidels hence the attacks on us is because we are infidels.

Not infidels just a country that hates Islam altogether for no reason and thinks we're trying to destroy it altogether, which is not true.

[ptif219]

Not infidels just a country that hates Islam altogether for no reason and thinks we're trying to destroy it altogether, which is not true.

No by your own posts it is because we defend Israel which is a country of infidels so hence we are infidels.That means we have been repeatedly attacked for being infidels.

[micfranklin]

No by your own posts it is because we defend Israel which is a country of infidels so hence we are infidels.That means we have been repeatedly attacked for being infidels.

No we've been repeatedly attacked because he thinks we're out to destroy all of Islam.

[ptif219]

No we've been repeatedly attacked because he thinks we're out to destroy all of Islam.

No because we are infidels and we are friends of Israel

[micfranklin]

No because we are infidels and we are friends of Israel

No because OBL is extremely radical and thinks we're out to destroy his religion.

[ptif219]

No because OBL is extremely radical and thinks we're out to destroy his religion.

You didn't show that.You showed it was because we help Israel so it is about us being infidels just like Israel.

[micfranklin]

You didn't show that.You showed it was because we help Israel so it is about us being infidels just like Israel.

Also from the link I posted:

It has become clear that the West in general and America in particular have an unspeakable hatred for Islam.

Those who lived under continuous US raids for the past months are aware of it.

And also:

After they (the Americans), for no reason, bombed entire villages to scare the inhabitants, the defence secretary said it was the United States' right to exterminate the peoples since they are Muslim and since they are not American.

[ptif219]

Also from the link I posted:



And also:

Bin Laden said that so it is true?Big deal.

[micfranklin]

Bin Laden said that so it is true?Big deal.

That's not what I said. That's bin Laden's other reasons for why he attacked us and like I said he's extremely radical.

[ptif219]

That's not what I said. That's bin Laden's other reasons for why he attacked us and like I said he's extremely radical.

I live less then 2 miles from a mosque.No problems.It is not Muslims where the problems are it is the radical terrorist from the muslim religion that see us as infidels.

[micfranklin]

I live less then 2 miles from a mosque.No problems.It is not Muslims where the problems are it is the radical terrorist from the muslim religion that see us as infidels.

Ah, interesting take on this. I've been saying radical terrorists are the problem and not all Muslims and it's this one person who's got a fucked up idea that America is out to destroy all Islam based on some raids in the ME.

[ptif219]

Ah, interesting take on this. I've been saying radical terrorists are the problem and not all Muslims and it's this one person who's got a fucked up idea that America is out to destroy all Islam based on some raids in the ME.

I never claimed it was all Muslims.I said it was because we are infidels.To radical terrorist we are.

[micfranklin]

And because we "exterminate and kill Muslims because they're not American" at least according to OBL.

[ptif219]

And because we "exterminate and kill Muslims because they're not American" at least according to OBL.

So where did we do this?

[jafar00]

Wild guess, you have NO condemnation for Muslims killing innocent Jews????
PLO,AQ, Hamas, Hezbollah ring a bell?

How do you condemn someone for defending themselves? The "Jews" (Israeli Army) are not innocent in the slightest.

So then it is because we defend the infidels the Jews who muslims hate.

Muslims and Jews have a long history of peaceful co-existance. It wasn't until this messed up experiment with Zionism that things started to get ugly.


And because we "exterminate and kill Muslims because they're not American" at least according to OBL.

So where did we do this?

Read any newspaper on any day. You killed a bunch of people on their way to a wedding the other day.

[preservanation]

Muslims and Jews have a long history of peaceful co-existance. It wasn't until this messed up experiment with Zionism that things started to get ugly.



Verse 5:60 even says that Allah transformed Jews of the past into apes and pigs. Verse 2:65 continues the theme.

Verse 7:176 compares unbelievers to "panting dogs" with regard to their idiocy and worthlessness.

A hadith says that Muhammad believed rats to be "mutated Jews" (Bukhari 54:524, also confirmed by Sahih Muslim 7135 and 7136).

Verses 46:29-35 even say that unbelieving men are worse than demons who believe in Muhammad.


The Qur’an Says that Non-Muslims Should Not be Taken as Friends


Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. (58:22)

O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. (5:51)


O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse (3:118)

The Misbeliever is a helper (of Evil), against his own Lord! (25:55)

O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you,[/B] and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty. (9:123)

The Qur’an goes on to assure Muslims that Jews are wicked (4:160-162)

Only Jews and Christians who submit to Islamic subjugation and pay the Jizya are protected in this world (9:29 & Ibn Ishaq 956).

Listen not to the unbelievers, but strive (Jihad) against them with the utmost strenuousness. (25:52)

Allah himself fights against the unbelievers (9:30), so why should Muslims not fight in His cause rather than in the cause of evil (4:76)?

Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know (8:60)

…He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide. For them is a penalty in the life of this world, but harder, truly, is the penalty of the Hereafter… (13:33:34)

And unto Allah falleth prostrate whosoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly (13:15)


Those who resist Allah and His Messenger will be among those most humiliated. [B](58:20 - The context for this verse is the eviction of the Jewish tribes of Medina and the confiscation of their wealth, land, and children by Muhammad).

"I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment. (8:12-13) http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Quran-Hate.htm

Now, I'm no expert but it is my understanding that this was going on long before 1947.

[micfranklin]

So where did we do this?

Let me repost that statement:

And because we "exterminate and kill Muslims because they're not American" at least according to OBL.

[Shoey]

How do you condemn someone for defending themselves? The "Jews" (Israeli Army) are not innocent in the slightest.

The land of Israel belong to the Jews or the Palestenians? Can we agree the Jews and the Palestenians have been fighting over this piece of land for centuries? According to one religion, the land of Israel belongs to the Jews. According to another religion, the land of Israel belongs to the Palestenians.
In my opnion, there will never be peace in the ME.



Muslims and Jews have a long history of peaceful co-existance. It wasn't until this messed up experiment with Zionism that things started to get ugly.

The bible tells me in the book of Genesis the land of Israel belongs to the Hebrews (1445-1405 B.C). So if the Hebrew occupied the land of Israel first then that land rightfully belongs to the Jews. In the Old Testament, major and minor prophets predicted that Israel would fall and Israel fell many times. In ancient times and present, the Jews and Palestenians engage in a conflict based primarily on religious belief that the land of Israel belongs to the Jews or the Palestenians.



Read any newspaper on any day. You killed a bunch of people on their way to a wedding the other day.

Yasir Arafat, former leader of the PLO a terrorist? Did NOT Hezbollah start a war with Israel in 2006???

Key Events in Yasir Arafat's Terrorist Career

– Aug 4, 1929: Born in Cairo. Arafat, then named Muhammad Abdel Rahman Abdel Rauf al-Qudwa al-Husseini, is fifth child of prosperous merchant, Abdel Raouf al-Qudwa al-Husseini.

– 1933: Arafat's mother dies. He and his infant brother are sent to live with uncle in Jerusalem.

– Late 1950's: Arafat co-founds Fatah, the “Movement for the National Liberation of Palestine.”

– Jan. 1, 1965: Fatah fails in its first attempted attack within Israel — the bombing of the National Water Carrier.

– July 5, 1965: A Fatah cell plants explosives at Mitzpe Massua, near Beit Guvrin; and on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem near Kafr Battir.

– 1965-1967: Numerous Fatah bomb attacks target Israeli villages, water pipes, railroads. Homes are destroyed and Israelis are killed.

– July 1968: Fatah joins and becomes the dominant member of the PLO, an umbrella organization of Palestinian terrorist groups.

– Feb. 4, 1969: Arafat is appointed Chairman of the Executive Committee of the PLO

– Feb. 21, 1970: SwissAir flight 330, bound for Tel Aviv, is bombed in mid-flight by PFLP, a PLO member group. 47 people are killed.

– May 8, 1970: PLO terrorists attack an Israeli schoolbus with bazooka fire, killing nine pupils and three teachers from Moshav Avivim

– Sept. 6, 1970: TWA, Pan-Am, and BOAC airplanes are hijacked by PLO terrorists.

– September 1970: Jordanian forces battle the PLO terrorist organization, driving its members out of Jordan after the group's violent activity threatens to destabilize the kingdom. The terrorists flee to Lebanon. This period in PLO history is called “Black September.”

– May 1972: PFLP, part of the PLO, dispatches members of the Japanese Red Army to attack Lod Airport in Tel Aviv, killing 27 people.

– Sept. 5, 1972: Munich Massacre —11 Israeli athletes are murdered at the Munich Olympics by a group calling themselves “Black September,”said to be an arm of Fatah, operating under Arafat's direct command.

– March 1, 1973: Palestinian terrorists take over Saudi embassy in Khartoum. The next day, two Americans –including the United States' ambassador to Sudan, Cleo Noel – and a Belgian were shot and killed. James J. Welsh, an analyst for the National Security Agency from 1969 through 1974, charged Arafat with direct complicity in these murders.

– April 11, 1974: 11 people are killed by Palestinian terrorists who attack apartment building in Kiryat Shmona.

– May 15, 1974: PLO terrorists infiltrating from Lebanon hold children hostage in Ma'alot school. 26 people, 21 of them children, are killed.

– June 9, 1974: Palestinian National Council adopts “Phased Plan,” which calls for the establishment of a Palestinian state on any territory evacuated by Israel, to be used as a base of operations for destroying the whole of Israel. The PLO reaffirms its rejection of United Nations Security Council Resolution 242, which calls for a “just and lasting peace” and the “right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.”

– November 1974: PLO takes responsibility for the PDFLP's Beit She'an murders in which 4 Israelis are killed.

– Nov. 13, 1974: Arafat, wearing a holster (he had to leave his gun at the entrance), addresses the U.N. General Assembly.

– March 1975: Members of Fatah attack the Tel Aviv seafront and take hostages in the Savoy hotel. Three soldiers, three civilians and seven terrorists are killed.

– March 1978: Coastal Road Massacre —Fatah terrorists take over a bus on the Haifa-Tel Aviv highway and kill 21 Israelis.

– 1982: Having created a terrorist mini-state in Lebanon destabilizing that nation, PLO is expelled as a result of Israel's response to incessant PLO missile attacks against northern Israeli communities. Arafat relocates to Tunis.

– Oct. 7, 1985: Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro is hijacked by Palestinian terrorists. Wheelchair-bound elderly man, Leon Klinghoffer, was shot and thrown overboard. Intelligence reports note that instructions originated from Arafat's headquarters in Tunis.

– Dec. 12, 1988: Arafat claims to accept Israel's right to exist.

– September 1993: Arafat shakes hands with Israeli Prime Minister Rabin, inaugurating the Oslo Accords. Arafat pledges to stop incitement and terror, and to foster co-existence with Israel, but fails to comply. Throughout the years of negotiations, aside from passing, token efforts, Arafat does nothing to stop Hamas, PFLP, and Islamic Jihad from carrying out thousands of terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians. With Arafat's encouragement and financial support, groups directly under Arafat's command, such as the Tanzim and Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, also carry out terror attacks.

– Oct. 21, 1996: Speaking at a rally near Bethlehem, Arafat said "We know only one word - jihad. jihad, jihad, jihad. Whoever does not like it can drink from the Dead Sea or from the Sea of Gaza." (Yediot Ahronot, October 23, 1996)

– April 16, 1998: In a statement published in the official Palestinian Authority newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadeeda, Arafat is quoted: "O my dear ones on the occupied lands, relatives and friends throughout Palestine and the diaspora, my colleagues in struggle and in arms, my colleagues in struggle and in jihad...Intensify the revolution and the blessed intifada...We must burn the ground under the feet of the invaders."

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_article=795&x_context=7

[jafar00]

The land of Israel belong to the Jews or the Palestenians? Can we agree the Jews and the Palestenians have been fighting over this piece of land for centuries? According to one religion, the land of Israel belongs to the Jews. According to another religion, the land of Israel belongs to the Palestenians.
In my opnion, there will never be peace in the ME.

The land belongs to those with ancestral ties and who have lived there for centuries. Not to a bunch of people who have lived for centuries in another country who have no blood connection to the place. If they were to be given any place to make up for the holocaust, it should have been Germany.


The bible tells me in the book of Genesis the land of Israel belongs to the Hebrews (1445-1405 B.C). So if the Hebrew occupied the land of Israel first then that land rightfully belongs to the Jews.

What of the Jews that were European that were given houses of Palestinians who were descended by provable bloodlines from the aforementioned "Hebrews"? Should they have been given an already occupied place in Israel?

Besides, according to my old Jewish neighbour in Paris, the Old Testament says the current Zionist state as it exists is an abomination.


Did NOT Hezbollah start a war with Israel in 2006???


One could argue that Israeli soldiers being captured on the wrong side of the border sparked things off there.

[NDNdancer]

The land belongs to those with ancestral ties and who have lived there for centuries. Not to a bunch of people who have lived for centuries in another country who have no blood connection to the place.

*just grins*

[ptif219]

How do you condemn someone for defending themselves? The "Jews" (Israeli Army) are not innocent in the slightest.

Show me proof.But I will say that probably most terrorist acts are not provoked.

Muslims and Jews have a long history of peaceful co-existance. It wasn't until this messed up experiment with Zionism that things started to get ugly.

You mean that the British gave it up.

Read any newspaper on any day. You killed a bunch of people on their way to a wedding the other day.

Thats funny wheres the link.

[ptif219]

Let me repost that statement:

If it is a lie it is irrelevant.

[micfranklin]

If it is a lie it is irrelevant.

I take it you didn't notice the bolded part of what I posted earlier?

[ptif219]

The land belongs to those with ancestral ties and who have lived there for centuries. Not to a bunch of people who have lived for centuries in another country who have no blood connection to the place. If they were to be given any place to make up for the holocaust, it should have been Germany.
Who lived there at before and during the time of Jesus?


What of the Jews that were European that were given houses of Palestinians who were descended by provable bloodlines from the aforementioned "Hebrews"? Should they have been given an already occupied place in Israel?

Seems thats up to the presiding government.

Besides, according to my old Jewish neighbour in Paris, the Old Testament says the current Zionist state as it exists is an abomination.

Prove it

One could argue that Israeli soldiers being captured on the wrong side of the border sparked things off there.


Which week.Every week something happens.The Palestinians whine and cry like babies as the teach hate to their children.How many suicide bombers and missle attacks on Israel are unprovoked?

[ptif219]

I take it you didn't notice the bolded part of what I posted earlier?

I did that why I said if its a lie it is irrelevant

[jafar00]

Which week.Every week something happens.The Palestinians whine and cry like babies as the teach hate to their children.How many suicide bombers and missle attacks on Israel are unprovoked?

In case you haven't noticed, they have been under attack for the last 60 years.

[preservanation]

In case you haven't noticed, they have been under attack for the last 60 years.Palestine???
Every time they're given want they want, it just means their missile launchers are closer to Israel cities.
They break every cease fire and only abide by them for short periods of time so Iran and Syria can re arm them.
Painting Palestinians as victims is just another redefinition of a term.

[ptif219]

In case you haven't noticed, they have been under attack for the last 60 years.

Israel, I know every week unprovoked attacks from Gaza.

[Invayne]

Not infidels just a country that hates Islam altogether for no reason and thinks we're trying to destroy it altogether, which is not true.

:lmao: More people like you, and we'll end up like Britain in no time!

[Invayne]

No we've been repeatedly attacked because he thinks we're out to destroy all of Islam.

What was their excuse in the 1700's?

[Invayne]

After they (the Americans), for no reason, bombed entire villages to scare the inhabitants, the defence secretary said it was the United States' right to exterminate the peoples since they are Muslim and since they are not American.

Where the hell did THIS nonsense come from?

[Invayne]

Which week.Every week something happens.The Palestinians whine and cry like babies as the teach hate to their children.How many suicide bombers and missle attacks on Israel are unprovoked?

Such nice little children, aren't they?




http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v459/laidbacknluvinit/sub%203/childprotest.jpg

[micfranklin]

Where the hell did THIS nonsense come from?

Why don't you ask Osama bin Laden, he said it not me.

More people like you, and we'll end up like Britain in no time!

Again, you should take it up with Osama.

What was their excuse in the 1700's?

Excuse for what? Enlightenen me.

[Hurricane]

Lets not forget Farfur, the cute little Mickey Mouse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4

[Invayne]

Why don't you ask Osama bin Laden, he said it not me.



Again, you should take it up with Osama.



Excuse for what? Enlightenen me.

That Barbary Wars...back in Jefferson's day.

As for Osama, I'm not asking his stinking corpse anything.

[Invayne]

Lets not forget Farfur, the cute little Mickey Mouse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4

Oh yeah, that was cute, wasn't it?

[Shoey]

Where the hell did THIS nonsense come from?

Don't let the fanatics get to you hun', some people shoot up religion like a balloon on helium.

[Invayne]

Don't let the fanatics get to you hun', some people shoot up religion like a balloon on helium.

:ecstatic::love:

[jafar00]

Palestine???
Every time they're given want they want, it just means their missile launchers are closer to Israel cities.
They break every cease fire and only abide by them for short periods of time so Iran and Syria can re arm them.
Painting Palestinians as victims is just another redefinition of a term.

Oh? And I guess the Israelis are the innocent little angels who never break a ceasfire or peace agreement?

Israel, I know every week unprovoked attacks from Gaza.

Think back for more than a few weeks can you? Look up the Nakba.

Such nice little children, aren't they?




http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v459/laidbacknluvinit/sub%203/childprotest.jpg

Yes, charming indeed.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3110/2630248834_6871ea10c8.jpg

[ptif219]

Oh? And I guess the Israelis are the innocent little angels who never break a ceasfire or peace agreement?



Think back for more than a few weeks can you? Look up the Nakba.



Yes, charming indeed.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3110/2630248834_6871ea10c8.jpg

If you want to compare the Palestinians and there terrorist buddies have broke more treaties than Israel and also done more unprovoked attacks than Israel.

[jafar00]

If you want to compare the Palestinians and there terrorist buddies have broke more treaties than Israel and also done more unprovoked attacks than Israel.

Unprovoked??

[Wndrtch]

Unprovoked??

Hey jafar,
If Arabs are pissed off because the UN gave that land over to the Jews, then why are the Arabs fighting the Jews, and not attacking UN interests instead?

Also, what do you know about Nazi's running to the ME to hide from prosecution? I've read that many Nazis were welcomed by ME Heads-of-State.

[micfranklin]

That Barbary Wars...back in Jefferson's day.

As for Osama, I'm not asking his stinking corpse anything.

Osama isn't dead, just hiding and there have been a lot of reports that can't prove he's dead either.

[jafar00]

Hey jafar,
If Arabs are pissed off because the UN gave that land over to the Jews

You'd be pissed too if the UN gave your home to someone else and they came along and forced you out at gunpoint. Would you just accept it an move on?

[ptif219]

You'd be pissed too if the UN gave your home to someone else and they came along and forced you out at gunpoint. Would you just accept it an move on?

After 60 years they should get along or move.Thats right no other ME country wants them either.Says much about who they are.

[Invayne]

Yes, charming indeed.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3110/2630248834_6871ea10c8.jpg

There's nothing wrong with teaching self defense.

[apdst]

The UN didn't give the Palestinian's home away. The UN gave the Israelis their home back.

[Invayne]

The UN didn't give the Palestinian's home away. The UN gave the Israelis their home back.

BINGO!:thumbsup:

[lily]

That was mighty generous of them, considering there were people living there.

[Six]

Another example of one trying to blame the whole religion or group for the acts of an individual.

Pitiful.


Don't fool yourself with that nonsense. You see it's alot more than just a "individual" isn't it. Moderate muslims are barely treading water in the pool of universal comtemporary laws that govern human behavior.

[micfranklin]

Don't fool yourself with that nonsense. You see it's alot more than just a "individual" isn't it. Moderate muslims are barely treading water in the pool of universal comtemporary laws that govern human behavior.

Do you think all Muslims are crazy, deranged terrorists out to get you?

[Wndrtch]

You'd be pissed too if the UN gave your home to someone else and they came along and forced you out at gunpoint. Would you just accept it an move on?

So, Palestinians were never offered any compensation for their homes, they were just shoved into the streets? If that was policy guiding the migration, then yes that was wrong.

However, in the US, we have something called "Eminent Domain" which basically gives Fed/state government the right to displace people for the "common good" activities like running a new hi-way thru and area, or building a utility. You basically have to take what they give you and move on. Our courts even have a long history of upholding Eminent Domain issues, in favor for the Fed/state.

Do you know if something like our Eminent Domain was guiding the migration, or if Palestinians were offered compensation to leave?

Or, maybe a more important question to ask is, IF the Palastinian were not removed/displace, and Israelis just built new home for themselves, would Arab's have a different veiwpoint on the "State" of Israel? Would the Arab countries have allowed Israel to exist, if the Palestinians wern't turned into refugees themselves?

Last question to you, and I will leave alone. (at least for a little while)

What did the Arab member states want to do? It appears they were open to the idea of an Israeli state, but objected to the implmentation of it.

[Muser]

Don't fool yourself with that nonsense. You see it's alot more than just a "individual" isn't it. Moderate muslims are barely treading water in the pool of universal comtemporary laws that govern human behavior.

Do you think all Muslims are crazy, deranged terrorists out to get you?

It's possible Six was referring to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_on_Human_Rights_in_Islam

Or perhaps it was a direct reference to Shari'ah Law itself.

Believe it or not, some of us (including myself) have quite rational, valid concerns about Islam, not because we believe their followers are all terrorists, but because of the theocratic, discriminatory, freedom-limiting, controlling nature of it. Of course, some of us apply those same concerns toward any and ALL religions.

[ptif219]

Do you think all Muslims are crazy, deranged terrorists out to get you?

Not these Palestinians. :lmao:




http://youtube.com/watch?v=hyC1pD3NLv4

[lily]

So, Palestinians were never offered any compensation for their homes, they were just shoved into the streets? If that was policy guiding the migration, then yes that was wrong.


Link (http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/mepp/new_prrn/research/papers/zerriffi.htm)

During the current Camp David talks, one of the issues under discussion is
the issue of Palestinian Refugees, including a compensation regime. Although
little is known about the potential features of this regime, one
particularly noteworthy aspect is the fact that it is reported that the US
would fund between $15 and $25 billion of an approximately $100 billion
regime which would go towards Palestinian compensation and refugee
"rehabilitation." 1 Although it has been noted that the US would seek
additional financial support for this regime from Japan, the EU and other
donors, I have yet to see a report where Israel's contribution to this
regime is detailed.

I am therefore concerned that negotiations appear to be moving in a
dangerous direction: minimal Israeli contribution to Palestinian refugee
compensation and maximal financing by the international community,
especially the US. This apparent potential outcome has been the Israeli
position for some time; Israel has consistently refused to finance refugee
compensation arguing that it cannot accept responsibility for the
Palestinian refugee problem. On the other hand, Israel has been supportive
of an internationally financed compensation mechanism (to which its
contribution would be minor) presumably because of the benefits such a
regime would offer in terms of security stability and economic development
for the region.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC6C-cAc240

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7398071.stm

Link (http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/index.html)

[NIOSA]

To get their land back?
Ah, so it's ok to go in & mow down innocent people for a lie? Israel is a soverign state, it belongs to the Israelis, not the Palestinnians.

[ptif219]

Ah, so it's ok to go in & mow down innocent people for a lie? Israel is a soverign state, it belongs to the Israelis, not the Palestinnians.

Maybe lily will like this video.





http://uk.truveo.com/Jerusalem-bulldozer-attack/id/669700878

[Invayne]

Maybe lily will like this video.





http://uk.truveo.com/Jerusalem-bulldozer-attack/id/669700878

There's only so much nonsense a people can take.:fight:

[preservanation]

Jul 27, 2008, 10:03 AM (ET)

By R.K. MISRA

AHMADABAD, India (AP) - An obscure Islamic group claimed responsibility for a series of synchronized explosions that killed at least 45 people in western India, warning of "the terror of Death" in an e-mail sent to several television stations minutes before the blasts.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080727/D92681VO1.html

[jafar00]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080727/D92681VO1.html

Terrorism is political, not religious.

[Shoey]

Terrorism is political, not religious.

That's nonsense jafar and you know it. Renowned author Nonie Darwish, born a Muslim in Egypt and grew up in the Gaza strip said "Jihad has come to America" right after 9/11. Why do Muslims label her "infidel"?

Nonie Darwish (Arabic: نوني درويش) (born 1948[1]) is an Egyptian-born American writer and public speaker. She is the author of the book Now they Call Me Infidel; Why I Renounced Jihad for America, Israel and the War on Terror. Her second book out in November 2008 is "Cruel And Usual Punishment: The Terrifying Global Effects of Sharia Law". She is also a public speaker and founder of Arabs for Israel.[2] She states her mission is to "promote reconciliation, acceptance and understanding" between Israelis and Arabs.

Darwish is the daughter of an Egyptian Army lieutenant general, who, when assassinated by the Israeli army, was called a "shahid" by the Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser,[3] although Darwish blames "the Middle Eastern Islamic culture and the propaganda of hatred taught to children from birth" for the assassination.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gCNtKSLZNJY

[micfranklin]

Terrorism is political, not religious.

Not necessarily, people create terrorism for all sorts of reasons, not good ones though.

[jafar00]

That's nonsense jafar and you know it. Renowned author Nonie Darwish, born a Muslim in Egypt and grew up in the Gaza strip said "Jihad has come to America" right after 9/11. Why do Muslims label her "infidel"?

Do you know what Jihad is? I'll watch the vid when I get home. The net here sux. I'll come back to comment on it.

[Shoey]

Do you know what Jihad is?

Yes I do sir jafar. Jihad means struggle or struggle in the way of God. I encourage you to please watch this two part interview with Nonie Darwish (Why I left Islam) and give me your honest feedback.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QLgeMo0XE7k&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=evwB7YYVgIo&feature=related

[jafar00]

Jihad is a religious "holy war" against non believers?
She doesn't know what it is either. There is no such thing as a "holy war" in Islam and I challenge you to provide any proof that it does. :)
In the second part she goes on about people being taught to hate the Jews and the "infidels" at the end of every sermon in the mosque. Has she ever been to a Mosque?
I've listen to Friday sermons (khutba) in Mosques of 7 countries, and not once have I heard any of that. Not once!
I'm sorry but this is a show on the Christian Broadcasting Network and so has an agenda and not one shred of proof has been provided to back up any of the claims here.

[Shoey]

Jihad is a religious "holy war" against non believers?
She doesn't know what it is either. There is no such thing as a "holy war" in Islam and I challenge you to provide any proof that it does. :)

I respectfully disagree. On August 10th, 1990 former president Saddam Hussein (a Muslim) declares "jihad" (holy war) against the U.S and Israel.

One answer came last week, when Saddam Hussein had his Islamic leaders appeal to Muslims worldwide to join his jihad to defeat the "wicked Americans" should they attack Iraq; then he himself threatened the United States with jihad.

As this suggests, jihad is "holy war." Or, more precisely: It means the legal, compulsory, communal effort to expand the territories ruled by Muslims at the expense of territories ruled by non-Muslims.

The purpose of jihad, in other words, is not directly to spread the Islamic faith but to extend sovereign Muslim power (faith, of course, often follows the flag). Jihad is thus unabashedly offensive in nature, with the eventual goal of achieving Muslim dominion over the entire globe.

Jihad did have two variant meanings through the centuries, one more radical, one less so. The first holds that Muslims who interpret their faith differently are infidels and therefore legitimate targets of jihad. (This is why Algerians, Egyptians and Afghans have found themselves, like Americans and Israelis, so often the victims of jihadist aggression.) The second meaning, associated with mystics, rejects the legal definition of jihad as armed conflict and tells Muslims to withdraw from the worldly concerns to achieve spiritual depth.
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/990

Osama Bin Ladin signed and issued a declaration of "jihad" (holy war) on August 23rd, 1996.

Osama bin Laden signed and issued a Declaration of Jihad entitled "Message from Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Laden to His Muslim Brothers in the Whole World and Especially in the Arabian Peninsula: Declaration of Jihad Against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Mosques; Expel the Heretics from the Arabian Peninsula." Bin Laden divides his anger between two targets: "The Zionist-Crusader alliance" - Israel, the United States and their allies - and the government of Saudi Arabia, his homeland.

Bin Laden says the greatest injustice inflicted on Muslims since the death of Muhammed more than 1,300 years ago is the presence of U.S. troops - "occupiers" in his words - in Saudi Arabia, the land of the two holy places.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/profiles/osama_bin_laden_declares_jihad_text.htm



Listed below are terrorist organizations with the name "jihad" that have killed the "kafir"

The International Islamic Front for the Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders: Osama bin Laden's organization;
Laskar Jihad: responsible for the murder of more than 10,000 Christians in Indonesia;
Harakat ul-Jihad-i-Islami: a leading cause of violence in Kashmir;
Palestinian Islamic Jihad: the most vicious anti-Israel terrorist group of them all;
Egyptian Islamic Jihad: killed Anwar El-Sadat in 1981.
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/990

In the second part she goes on about people being taught to hate the Jews and the "infidels" at the end of every sermon in the mosque. Has she ever been to a Mosque?

You are asking me a hypothetical question jafar. How do you know I attend church services? How do I know you listen to sermons at Mosques? May I ask you who are the "kafir" or "infidel" according to the teachings of Islam? Are the "kafir" innocent?

[jafar00]

I respectfully disagree. On August 10th, 1990 former president Saddam Hussein (a Muslim) declares "jihad" (holy war) against the U.S and Israel.

Saddam Hussein was the leader of a country who declared war on another. Whether he was a Muslim or not has nothing to do with it.


Osama Bin Ladin signed and issued a declaration of "jihad" (holy war) on August 23rd, 1996.

Osama Bin Laden is well known to not be qualified to issue any declaration, let alone one of war. He is also, like Saddam, not a spokesperson for Islam. It can in fact be argued that by the actions they are accused of, they left the fold of Islam anyway.


You are asking me a hypothetical question jafar. How do you know I attend church services? How do I know you listen to sermons at Mosques? May I ask you who are the "kafir" or "infidel" according to the teachings of Islam? Are the "kafir" innocent?

The Kuffar (the plural form) or unbelievers are those who don't believe in God to put it simply.

Didn't I mention that there is nothing called "Holy War" in Islamic teachings?
I'm still waiting for you to provide some proof that the concept exists in Islam. :)

[Wndrtch]

Saddam Hussein was the leader of a country who declared war on another. Whether he was a Muslim or not has nothing to do with it.



Osama Bin Laden is well known to not be qualified to issue any declaration, let alone one of war. He is also, like Saddam, not a spokesperson for Islam. It can in fact be argued that by the actions they are accused of, they left the fold of Islam anyway.



The Kuffar (the plural form) or unbelievers are those who don't believe in God to put it simply.

Didn't I mention that there is nothing called "Holy War" in Islamic teachings?
I'm still waiting for you to provide some proof that the concept exists in Islam. :)

Hey jafar00, I have an honest question for you.

In reading up on the recent history of Israel's founding and all the trouble as a result, it seemed like the Arab states were OK in principal to an Israeli state, but objected to how and who would govern the region. Assuming this to be true, how would the Arab nations have implimented an Israeli state? What would have been different, from what was done?

[jafar00]

Hey jafar00, I have an honest question for you.

In reading up on the recent history of Israel's founding and all the trouble as a result, it seemed like the Arab states were OK in principal to an Israeli state, but objected to how and who would govern the region. Assuming this to be true, how would the Arab nations have implimented an Israeli state? What would have been different, from what was done?

I think the best way would have been to integrate the Jewish people into the whole country, living beside the people already living there instead of the Jews waltzing in and forcing people from their ancestral homes at gunpoint to make the place just for Jews.

Remember the Balfour declaration, which the Arabs were in agreement with stated that....

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".

The fact that the concept that the indigenous population's rights were so violently "prejudiced" is the root of the problem we have today. Instead of setting up house and being neighbours to the Palestinians who were already there, they went on a murderous rampage and took land that wasn't theirs. The rest is as we say, history.

[Wndrtch]

I think the best way would have been to integrate the Jewish people into the whole country, living beside the people already living there instead of the Jews waltzing in and forcing people from their ancestral homes at gunpoint to make the place just for Jews.

Remember the Balfour declaration, which the Arabs were in agreement with stated that....

So, this declaration would have invited the Jews to live within Palestine, but Governance would be conducted in a cooperative fasion?

But instead of that, what happened was that the "UN" carved-up the region and said "You Jews live here, and you Palestinians live over there"? And any Palastinian living in the Jewish area was removed, by force if needed?


The fact that the concept that the indigenous population's rights were so violently "prejudiced" is the root of the problem we have today. Instead of setting up house and being neighbours to the Palestinians who were already there, they went on a murderous rampage and took land that wasn't theirs. The rest is as we say, history.

What land did they "take"? Are you talking about the land that was grabbed during the 6 Day War?