Multiple people killed in Amish school shooting

[Alonzo]

Police say a "number" of people have been killed in a shooting at a one-room Amish schoolhouse in Lancaster County, Pa.

Earlier, there were reports of a hostage situation and multiple people shot at the one-room schoolhouse in eastern Lancaster County.

"There are a number of people dead. ... The exact number I do not know yet," state police Cpl. Ralph Striebig said.

The person who fired the shots was among those killed, Striebig said.

The scene is along the 4800 block of Mine Road near Paradise Township. Lancaster TV station WGAL reported that the school is marked off with police tape and there were at least 13 ambulances in the area. A helicopter was overhead and several firefighting companies were on the ground.

About three dozen Amish people were standing behind a police line, and at least two ambulances had left the scene, the station said. Television news helicopters showed a person being taken away on a stretcher to a waiting medical helicopter.

The Lancaster County 911 Web site reported that dozens of emergency units were dispatched to a "medical emergency" at 10:45 a.m. Monday.

Lancaster General Hospital officials have called in all available personnel and were told to be prepared for a large number of patients, WGAL reported.

John Lines of Lancaster General Hospital said so far they have received three "pediatric" patients. He did not say what their injuries were.

WGAL-TV reported that the incident does not involve the Faith Mennonite School or Bart-Colerain Elementary, which are near the scene.

http://www.nbc13.com/news/9982165/detail.html

[Cobra]

There sure have been a lot of school shootings these last few days. Wonder what's in the wind causing all this craziness.

[Alonzo]

PARADISE, Pennsylvania (CNN) -- A 32-year-old truck driver walked into a one-room Amish schoolhouse Monday, binding and shooting three girls execution-style before killing himself, police said.

Seven other girls were wounded in the attack, which police said appeared to be a revenge killing for an incident that occurred two decades ago.

"It would take a miracle for us to not lose more lives today," said Commissionerr Jeffrey Miller of the Pennsylvania State Police, adding two of the wounded were in "very dire critical condition" and on life support.

The attack was the nation's third deadly school shooting in a week.

"It seems as though he wanted to attack young female victims, and this is close to his residence. That's the only reason we can figure that he went to the school," said Miller.

"It's a horrendous crime scene," he said. (Watch how the gunman got in and what he did -- 7:44 )

The shooting took place in Lancaster County, about 60 miles west of Philadelphia, at a school run by the Amish community with about 27 students in grades 1 through 8. One of the children died in the arms of a trooper, Miller said. (Watch police investigate shooting scene -- 1:00)

The wounded girls were taken to several hospitals in the central Pennsylvania area, some of them with gunshot wounds to the head. Most of the victims range in age from 6 to 13, he said. One of those killed was an aide who was older than 13.

The gunman, Charles Carl Roberts IV, drove a commercial milk truck, said Miller. He was not Amish, was not previously wanted by authorities and had no known criminal history.

The Bart, Pennsylvania, resident had three children, and left several notes for his family "along the lines of suicide notes," Miller said.

The notes were "rambling" and "didn't make much sense," Miller said.

Roberts' wife tried to call him when she found the notes, Miller said. He returned the call on his cell phone, told her he wouldn't be coming home and "that he was acting out to achieve revenge for something that happened 20 years ago."

"Shortly thereafter, the shooting commenced," he said.

Troopers were unable to contact him and were preparing to storm the schoolhouse when Roberts began shooting, Miller said.

Gunman let boys go
The commissioner said Roberts had worked a shift that ended about 3 a.m. Monday and taken his children to their bus stop before beginning his rampage.

Police said he had barricaded himself in the schoolhouse with two-by-four and two-by-six pieces of lumber, which he brought to the scene in a borrowed pickup truck. He did not respond to efforts by police to make contact with him.

Miller said that during the attack, Roberts apparently told students to line up in front of the blackboard. He began to tie his female captives' feet together. He let the 15 boys in the classroom leave.

Roberts was armed with a shotgun and an automatic handgun, Miller said.

Miller said Roberts also allowed an adult female who was pregnant to leave with three other adult females who had infant children with them.

The teacher who was released was able to alert authorities, Miller said.

"Apparently, there was some sort of an issue in his past that for some reason, he wanted to exact revenge against female victims. That's all I can tell you right now," Miller said.

Lancaster County's 911 Web site reported dozens of emergency vehicles -- including at least nine ambulances -- were dispatched to Bart Township shortly before 11 a.m. for a "medical emergency." The Lancaster County emergency communications Web site showed 20 incident calls listed to the normally quiet Bart Township at 10:48 a.m.

Shortly after the attack, men, women and girls in traditional Amish clothing gathered in small groups outside the country schoolhouse along a dirt road. Horse-drawn carriages could be seen in a nearby parking lot.

The school is one of about 150 that serve the Amish population of about 200,000, said Donald Kraybill, a sociology professor at nearby Elizabethtown College.

"They typically are one-room facilities operated by Amish parents," Kraybill said. "There usually are not any security concerns or security risks in the schools, so this is quite a shock."

Aaron Meyer, who owns a buggy company in the nearby village of Bird in Hand, said the largely rural Amish country had experienced nothing like the crime in the 25 years he has lived in the area.

"Many of these townships there have no police at all, because there's no crime," Meyer told CNN.

On Wednesday, a 53-year-old man entered a high school in Bailey, Colorado, where he held several female students hostage at gunpoint. He shot one girl before killing himself seconds after a SWAT team stormed the classroom.

A high school student near Madison, Wisconsin, is suspected of fatally gunning down his principal on Friday, after he was disciplined for carrying tobacco and being bullied.


http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/02/amish.shooting/index.html

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But this kind of insane action deserves death.
2. I for one hope that this perp, is spinning in hell right now.
3. Its another senseless crime against humanity.
4. I think they should ship his wife and family off to Europe too.
5. Something must be done.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[lily]

I'm curious chess.......why would you want them to ship his wife and children off?

[Elrathin]

4. I think they should ship his wife and family off to Europe too.



Yeah because that sure makes sense. :rolleyes:

Why should his family suffer for something he did?

[bobbylien]

4. I think they should ship his wife and family off to Europe too.

Why not just execute them instead?

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But something should be passed down to the seed/children, for such a evil thing done to these innocent children.
2. The perp is dead, but that's not enough if you ask me.
3. Sins on the most part should not pass down from father to children.
4, But there is an exception to every rule.
5. I see this as being one.
6. His wife as well needs to suffer over this, she married the perp, and didn't see this coming, or at least says she didn't.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[DHard3006]

Isn’t it against the law to take a gun onto school grounds? This is the law the gun haters wanted. So what happened?

Oh I forgot to point out the law abiding citizens did obey the gun free zone laws the gun haters demanded and got. You know the dead people.

[Elrathin]

Isn’t it against the law to take a gun onto school grounds? This is the law the gun haters wanted. So what happened?

Oh I forgot to point out the law abiding citizens did obey the gun free zone laws the gun haters demanded and got. You know the dead people.


So are you advocating that students should bring guns to school now?

If not, your post doesn't make much sense.

[BoogyMan]

Sorry bout that,

1. But something should be passed down to the seed/children, for such a evil thing done to these innocent children.
2. The perp is dead, but that's not enough if you ask me.
3. Sins on the most part should not pass down from father to children.
4, But there is an exception to every rule.
5. I see this as being one.
6. His wife as well needs to suffer over this, she married the perp, and didn't see this coming, or at least says she didn't.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas



Wow Chess, I certainly hope no-one in your family every does anything against the law, you might have to ship yourself off somewhere.

Your commentary here doesn't make much sense.

[DHard3006]

So are you advocating that students should bring guns to school now?

If not, your post doesn't make much sense.

Well apparently you lack the ability to comprehend that the law abiding people are not the problem. The criminals, in this case a adult went onto a school campus with a gun. Now correct me if I am wrong, but did not the gun haters demand that schools should be gun free zones? So the victims of this crime were law abiding citizens. And the asinine law the gun haters demanded and got did nothing to prevent this crime.

Gun free zones like drug free zones do nothing to prevent crime. This is the asinine logic of the touchy feel good bunch that think laws against having something is the cure.

[Elrathin]

Gun free zones like drug free zones do nothing to prevent crime. This is the asinine logic of the touchy feel good bunch that think laws against having something is the cure.


It's a simple yes or no answer, are you saying kids should have guns in schools then?

[DHard3006]

It's a simple yes or no answer, are you saying kids should have guns in schools then?

This question is asinine for the simple reason that schools are not made up completely of kids. Are kids the only people at schools? No!Â*Â*Is your question asked to imply that the right to bear arms should be limited in the name of safety? Yes!

By the way at one time most if not all high schools had shooting teams on them. I can find no records of school shootings during this time.

[Elrathin]

This question is asinine for the simple reason that schools are not made up completely of kids.


I asked a VERY SIMPLE question that even a moron can answer, do you think STUDENTS at a school should carry firearms? VERY SIMPLE, YES OR NO?

[Cobra]

I so think I should be able to carry a gun in school but don't trust the idiots I have to go with so I don't think students should be able to carry guns. Sorry, know you weren't asking me but I just had to answer.

[DHard3006]

This question is asinine for the simple reason that schools are not made up completely of kids.


I asked a VERY SIMPLE question that even a moron can answer, do you think STUDENTS at a school should carry firearms?Â*Â*VERY SIMPLE, YES OR NO?


Once again kids are not the only people at schools.

[Cobra]

Yeah, but he's asking whether kids should be able to.

[Elrathin]

Once again kids are not the only people at schools.


I never said they were.Â*Â*My question was quite specific though, do you think students should be allowed to have firearms at school?Â*Â*Can you answer or just keep dodging.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But sure, I'll bite.
2. Some children should be able to carry guns.
3. For protection of their classmates.
4. There should be one kid cop in each class.
5. To protect the whole.
6. Call it the *Gun Monitor*.
7. find the kid that can handle carrying a weapon and arm him or her.
8. This is one way to protect them from random nutjobs.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[sbannon]

DHard3006, just out of curiosity since I glean from your posts that you oppose gun control legislation--what is your proposal for dealing with the rising levels of gun violence in schools and out on the streets of America?

Every 18 minutes someone is killed by gunfire in America. A survey encompassing the years of 1979 through 2001 showed that over 90,000 children were killed in America from gunfire during those years. That's 4,090 children per year... 11 children per day... about 1 child every 2 hours dead to gunfire.

The rate of firearm deaths among children under the age of 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized nations combined according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Just 3 weeks ago the Justice Department said that while overall violent crime had dropped to a 32 year low in America, gun violence was the one category which had risen and was higher than before. 1 in every 500 Americans were victimized by gun violence in 2005.

I have traditionally been against gun control legislation myself, accepting the "gun control laws will only apply to lawful citizens who don't really need them anyway" idea as sane and practical. But not being a gun owner nor a gun enthusiast I haven't gone much deeper into the debate than that, simply because I have no horse in the race.

So, with the recent school shootings (3 in 6 days) I've decided to begin asking more questions of both sides on it now, and I'd just like to know what some folks who oppose gun control legislation propose can or should be done to combat the rising levels of gun violence in America?

[RightWingJuggernaut]

Isn’t it against the law to take a gun onto school grounds? This is the law the gun haters wanted. So what happened?

Oh I forgot to point out the law abiding citizens did obey the gun free zone laws the gun haters demanded and got. You know the dead people.


So are you advocating that students should bring guns to school now?

If not, your post doesn't make much sense.


When I was in high school, 1992 graduate, we brought guns to school. In fact, during the hunting seasons I can assure you that we had more guns in one place than the police and sheriff department had combined.

On any given day someone had a rifle, pistol or shotgun in their vehicle because they were going out shooting or hunting after school, if they hadn't been before school.

Guess what.

No school shootings.

Then again, we weren't chickenshit enough to need a gun to settle our differences or air our grievances. We told someone how we felt and settled it with our fists if our mouths weren't enough.

[DHard3006]

I never said they were.Â*Â*
Gun free zones stop only one type of people from bringing guns into a school. That would be the law abiding citizens. You know gun hater the dead people at the crime scene.
Â*Â*what is your proposal for dealing with the rising levels of gun violence in schools and out on the streets of America?
Well gun hater apparently the gun free zone laws do not work. Or is this too simple for you to comprehend? I say punish the criminal, not the law abiding citizens!
Â*Â*Every 18 minutes someone is killed by gunfire in America.
And yet gun hater more people die by cars and other things and you could careless.
So tell us gun hater since gun free zones do not work what do you want to do to deal with the very few people that do not obey the gun free zone laws?
Come on gun hater a simple question. Do you want to infringe on the rights of the majority of Americans to pass a law criminals will not obey? Because gun hater it is against the law to bringÂ*Â*a gun to school. The only people not obeying this asinine law was the criminal. Hey ah gun hater are you more concerned with the criminals right to bear arms then the law abiding American?
Hey ah gun hater law abiding citizens are not shooting people.

[sbannon]

DHard3006, I believe I asked a fair question in a polite manner. No need to be rude if you can't address what I said or answer my question, just say "I don't know".

[BoogyMan]

DHard3006, I believe I asked a fair question in a polite manner. No need to be rude if you can't address what I said or answer my question, just say "I don't know".


I would not have said it that way but Dhard is correct that when you take away weapons the only people who WILL have them is the bad guys.

[sbannon]

Boogyman, did you read my first post in this thread?

I clearly stated that I've traditionally agreed with that idea and opposed gun control legislation. I don't hate guns and have no agenda against them or anyone who owns them. I simply have questions regarding how those who don't want any gun legislation feel we should address the rising levels of gun violence in America.

Being concerned about the crazy number of children who die from firearms in America doesn't mean I'm about to start marching and soap-boxing with Rosie O'Donnell, it just means I think there is a real problem and I'd like to know what those on both sides of the fence with gun control think can be done about it.

DHard3006 assumed that since I asked a question I must be a gun hater (he called me that 7 times in 2 paragraphs)... which isn't so at all. He then replied that his solution is to "punish the criminal, not the law abiding citizens!"

The only problem with that idea is that it doesn't address the gun violence, it only responds to it.

He also seems to have assumed that I could "careless" about people who die in car crashes??? I'm not sure where that came from but it's also not true at all.

[Elrathin]

I would not have said it that way but Dhard is correct that when you take away weapons the only people who WILL have them is the bad guys.




So arm everyone at schools then is what your wanting? Where do you draw the line at gun control. Do you make it a free for all, even in bars, schools, etc for EVERYONE?

I am actually pretty easy going on gun control. I think everyone should be allowed to be armed, but at the same time I do think there should be some limits. Having drunks armed at a bar is asking for trouble. Having adolescents armed in a school is asking for trouble.

I have no problem with the regular joe carrying a firearm out in the open on the streets, however, I just feel there should be SOME restrictions on what places they should be allowed to carry in. More specifically I think the owner of an establishment should have the right to say that firearms are not allowed in his place.

[bobbylien]

6. His wife as well needs to suffer over this, she married the perp, and didn't see this coming, or at least says she didn't.

*shivers* Our criminal justice system isnt here to satisfy your lust to make people suffer. The whole idea of justice is that the person who did the crime pays for it.

I think there should be an armed guard or maybe two at every school at all times. You can't expect these schools to pay for it when their budgets have been slashed in recent years. Having an armed person in every class room is completely rediculous. Its funny how you gun lovers love to point these few deaths out as a reason to carry guns everywhere. But fail to point out the fact that we have so much gun violence. Countries that have put better restrictions on guns have lower gun violence rates. Putting more guns into circulation will just make it easier for criminals to get their hands on them. I have absolutely no problem with people having guns and shooting them legally. I know most gun owners are good people and I fully support peoples rights to hunt.

[DHard3006]

DHard3006, I believe I asked a fair question in a polite manner.
Which part of punish the criminal do you not comprehend? The gun free zone laws did not work to stop school shootings.
Now since the gun haters demanded and got gun free zones and we now have how many people dead? Who should be held accountable for the death of these people? The government,
simply because the government banned law abiding citizens from defending themselves.
The only problem with that idea is that it doesn't address the gun violence, it only responds to it.
Well gun hater you cannot stop a crime. You simply punish a person when they commit a crime.
Gun bans = unarmed law abiding citizens against armed criminals.
Case in point the recent school shootings!
I am actually pretty easy going on gun control.Â*Â*I think everyone should be allowed to be armed, but at the same time I do think there should be some limits.
Gun haters like you should be held accountable for the deaths of the students at the recent school shootings.
Gun haters like you spew the kids bs every time people defend their right to bear arms. No where in my posts have a said anything about kids. You gun hater just jumped in as always and spewed the kid lies.

Where were the school shooting prior to the gun bans at schools?

Gun haters common sense appears to be more worried about criminals being properly armed, while law abiding citizens are denied the right to bear arms.

[sbannon]

DHard3006, you're delusional. How many times must I clearly state that I don't hate guns. They're pieces of metal, I have no emotional connections with them one way or another.

But even if this were bizarro land and I did have some emotional ties to those piecees of metal and hated them, how exactly do you come to the conclusion that because I hate guns I should be "held accountable for the deaths of the students at the recent school shootings"? That's one of the most absurd things I've read on this forum, and there've been a few.

I certainly agree that those who commit crimes should be punished for their actions, but I absolutely disagree with you that "you cannot stop a crime". You certainly can stop some crime, and that's my whole question. What methods--other than gun control legislation--can or should we employ to stop the rising levels of gun violence in America today, especially among our children?

I'm not saying we should or shouldn't pass any gun control laws at this point--I'm asking what, if not gun control legislation--can be done?

[RightWingJuggernaut]

I'm not saying we should or shouldn't pass any gun control laws at this point--I'm asking what, if not gun control legislation--can be done?


Do you really think with over 20,000 gun laws on the books that one more is going to help?

[Elrathin]

Gun haters like you should be held accountable for the deaths of the students at the recent school shootings.

How can I be a gun hater when I own 5 of them myself? You are making no sense whatsoever. You automatically INSULT anyone that doesn't believe EXACTLY as you do.

[Rider]

Dhard3006 needs to cool off a bit here. The points that he is making are certainly valid and I agree with most, if not all of them. When Sbannon worries about the situation and asks some valid questions he is not leaving himself open to being a "gun hater".

As far as the school shootings are concerned, I think that the best chance of stopping these atrocites is to allow teachers and school employees to carry a concealed weapon. Columbine might have turned out differently is a couple of janitors and mayber 3 or 4 teachers had been trained and armed.

[Elrathin]

As far as the school shootings are concerned, I think that the best chance of stopping these atrocites is to allow teachers and school employees to carry a concealed weapon. Columbine might have turned out differently is a couple of janitors and mayber 3 or 4 teachers had been trained and armed.


No offense, but I don't think Columbine would have turned out differently with armed teachers and staff.

The bottom line is, unless you are going to get former police or military trained people to teach, the teachers ARE NOT TRAINED to handle a combat situation with a weapon. At best you might get the teacher shot or killed, at worst you might have a nervous trigger teacher that ends up killing an innocent student instead.

Hell getting a teacher trained to teach is hard enough let alone giving them COMBAT training.

It sounds cool to be armed, however, when the bullets start flying, training is EVERYTHING. And sorry, but a teacher that has taken gun classes is not trained to handle that nor would I trust my child to a school that implemented that.

There are already armed security guards in some schools yes? I don't mind that, but keep it out of the teachers hand IMO.

[Rider]

Good point, but keep in mind that some dumbass teenager on a rampage isn't going to be trained at all. Given the choice, I'd rather have an adult at least trained in the operation of the weapon and basic marksmanship than nothing at all.

[RightWingJuggernaut]

There are quite a few teachers that were shooters long before they ever had an apple on their desk.

[Elrathin]

Given the choice, I'd rather have an adult at least trained in the operation of the weapon and basic marksmanship than nothing at all.


That's why I said armed secruity guards or even police. I have no problem with that.

[Elrathin]

There are quite a few teachers that were shooters long before they ever had an apple on their desk.


Yes, but I'd wager to say that is the exception and not the norm. All my requirement would be is that they are TRAINED for a combat situation that may arise. That is why trained security guards or police would fit nicely to that.

[Rider]

Have you seen what passes for security guards? Schools are not going to be able to afford REAL security guards with the kind of training you reccomend.

[Elrathin]

Have you seen what passes for security guards? Schools are not going to be able to afford REAL security guards with the kind of training you reccomend.


That is why I also included the term TRAINED. And yes, there are armed security guard services that do combat training. We have several here that do.

Bottom line I would trust an armed security guard more than a teacher to carry a firearm.

[DHard3006]

DHard3006, you're delusional.
Delusional? Who is defending a law that gets law abiding citizens killed? You are! You like the other gun haters are accountable for the deaths of how many students and teachers? How many school shooting have we had since school have become gun free zones?
Look in the mirror gun hater you are the delusional one.
Â*Â*I'm not saying we should or shouldn't pass any gun control laws at this point--I'm asking what, if not gun control legislation--can be done?
The gun hating leftist aka progressives(demoncrats) lost the last elections because they are anti god, anti gun, and they defend the perversion of homosexual marriage.
The new approach is to claim they the gun hating leftist aka progressives(demoncrats) do not want gun control.
How can I be a gun hater when I own 5 of them myself?
This is such an old gun hater lie, chanting you own guns then defending gun control laws that infringe on the right to bear arms. This did not work in the past because the gun hating leftist aka progressives(demoncrats) lost the last elections because of it.
You automatically INSULT anyone that doesn't believe EXACTLY as you do.
The only insults are from gun haters that attack the right of Americans. This puts gun haters in the same boat with criminals. Gun haters have no respect for the rights of Americans.
No offense, but I don't think Columbine would have turned out differently with armed teachers and staff.
Of course you will not claim any good will come form the use of a gun, you want gun control. Gee gun haters like to chant this many people die a year from guns. Well cars kill far more people then guns. Doctors kill over an 100,000 people a year by accident then guns. Swimming polls in my area kill far more kids then guns.
Guns on the other hand are accredited with saving over 2.5 million people a year. You do not have to use a gun to save a life, just the gun being there is enough.


Gun haters want one thing and that is to ban the right to bear arms. There is no compromising on a right with gun haters!

[sbannon]

Hey, there's been some good discussion in this thread today--it's all been civil--and a suggestion has even been proposed; to arm teachers and janitors, or perhaps hire ex-military for security.

Being a bottom-line personality, my first question to that idea is would Americans willingly pay for that? If you think about a teacher who currently earns $40,000 per year, and you require them to become the front line of armed defense--they're going to demand 'combat pay' for the newly required skill set. That could mean a yearly salary of $50,000 to $60,000 now. Most schools are so large that they'd need 3 or more such trained and armed teachers, so that's going to cost school districts a lot of money; and it doesn't even start to cover the expenses of the initial training as well as continued refresher sessions every now and then (we'd certainly want anyone who's armed and working with children to go through refreshers on an occasional basis).

Or, if instead we go the ex-military for security route: they'd cost double what current school security guards demand, for their experience and skills. If you've ever dealt with private security firms then you know that armed guards can earn (and cost) anywhere from double to triple what unarmed guards do; I went with the lower 'double' amount. Whatever it is in reality, it will be expensive.

So, does everyone here think that Americans would accept the tax hikes required to fund either of these options?

[Elrathin]

So, does everyone here think that Americans would accept the tax hikes required to fund either of these options?


I can wager they will would be willing to accept the tax hikes versus arming the teachers and school staff. Now whether either happens will be up to the parents, school board district, and of course the tax payer.

[sbannon]

Hey, there's been some good discussion in this thread today--it's all been civil--and a <snip>I spoke too soon...

DHard3006, I can't discuss this with you rationally if you're going to keep making crap up about me and what I say. You seem awful paranoid there.

Let me make this clear for the last time to you:
I don't hate guns.
I haven't defended any gun control legislations.
And I'm certainly not anti-God.

Get over yourself, you don't know me at all. If you want to discuss the topic, and restrict your arguments to things that are actually said instead of making up positions for others just to argue with I'll be happy to discuss it with you, but it's your call. I'm not going to keep wasting my time addressing comments or ideas that I've never stated as you invent them.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But the GD protesters for funerals are coming out to protest innocent girls funerals.
2. I hope the Amish shoot them in the head if they try!
3. It would serve them right!

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[DHard3006]

I spoke too soon...Â*Â*
Again we get the ole gun hater tricks of attacking the person defending a right. This did not work for the racist that passed jim crow laws and it is not working for the gun haters.
I haven't defended any gun control legislations.
And gun hater you have not demanded any gun control law be removed. Get over it you are seen for what you are. A gun banning leftist aka progressive (demoncrats).
Get over yourself, you don't know me at all. If you want to discuss the topic, and restrict your arguments to things that are actually said instead of making up positions for others just to argue with I'll be happy to discuss it with you, but it's your call.
Ah gun hater pointing out that gun control laws like gun free zones do not work is discussing the topic.
You just do not like the fact that you defend gun bans! Now to use a quote, get over yourself!
I'm not going to keep wasting my time addressing comments or ideas that I've never stated as you invent them.
No but you will spew gun hater lies as usual.
Tell us how do you stop a crime.

[BoogyMan]

I would not have said it that way but Dhard is correct that when you take away weapons the only people who WILL have them is the bad guys.




So arm everyone at schools then is what your wanting?Â*Â*Where do you draw the line at gun control.Â*Â*Do you make it a free for all, even in bars, schools, etc for EVERYONE?Â*Â*

I am actually pretty easy going on gun control.Â*Â*I think everyone should be allowed to be armed, but at the same time I do think there should be some limits.Â*Â*Having drunks armed at a bar is asking for trouble.Â*Â*Having adolescents armed in a school is asking for trouble.

I have no problem with the regular joe carrying a firearm out in the open on the streets, however, I just feel there should be SOME restrictions on what places they should be allowed to carry in.Â*Â*More specifically I think the owner of an establishment should have the right to say that firearms are not allowed in his place.

Wow, this is a nice leap of "logic" on your part Elrathin. I merely pointed out the fact that to outlaw guns is to make sure that only the criminals have them. Thats all.

[sbannon]

DHard3006, I'm going to walk through your last post point by point to show that you are in-fact either overly paranoid or just plain delusional. I'm not attacking you, I'm saying that maybe you need to slow down a bit and digest what others are saying instead of giving knee-jerk reactions because you really do seem to be missing some things and inventing some other things from other people's posts.

Again we get the ole gun hater tricks of attacking the person defending a right. This did not work for the racist that passed jim crow laws and it is not working for the gun haters.
I never attacked you. I commented on the not-so-civil tone of your posting being... well... not-so-civil. It wasn't a personal attack by any means.

And gun hater you have not demanded any gun control law be removed. Get over it you are seen for what you are. A gun banning leftist aka progressive (demoncrats).
So, by your logic if I'm not protesting to remove existing laws that automatically makes me a "gun hater"? That line of logic makes no sense at all. There's a law in Anniston, Alabama which says "You may not wear blue jeans down Noble Street." Since I don't protest against this law does that make me a denim hater? See how silly this is?

I've clearly said numerous times here that I don't hate guns, I've basically stayed out of the debate in the past for the most part simply because it wasn't very personal to me. I don't own guns or enjoy firing them, so I didn't care one way or the other. Indifference, not hatred.

Now, with the rising levels of gun violence, especially among children recently, I haven't even asked in this thread if gun control laws were right but rather what alternatives to gun control exist. Obviously you have nothing to offer on that question, and that's fine, but stop twisting my concern into something that it's not just to argue. It's counter-productive.

Ah gun hater pointing out that gun control laws like gun free zones do not work is discussing the topic.
You just do not like the fact that you defend gun bans! Now to use a quote, get over yourself!
Okay, please quote me where I defended gun bans, in this thread or ever on this forum. There's a search feature at the top, I'll be waiting to see it.

No but you will spew gun hater lies as usual.
Tell us how do you stop a crime.
What lies? Please, quote just one, I challenge you.

As for your closing question, nice tact when you can't answer a question from me just spin it and pose it back to me. But okay, studies show that a large amount of crime is committed due to disparity and desperation, and that actual criminal acts are often acts of opportunity in those times of desperation. Here's one simple little trick that every city in America used to remove some of those opportunities and therefor reduce/stop crime: street lights. You're far more likely to be attacked in a dark street or parking lot than a well lighted one. All it takes is a light bulb or two and you prevent (a.k.a. stopping) crimes.

Now, care to answer my original question? What alternative to gun control do you propose to address the rising levels of gun violence in America?

[DHard3006]

I never attacked you. I commented on the not-so-civil tone of your posting being... well... not-so-civil. It wasn't a personal attack by any means.
Well gun hater what do you call posting that a person is un-civil or rude for calling you what you are? If honesty hurts then you may wish to stop debating a issue.
That line of logic makes no sense at all.
Not to a gun hater it doesn’t.
Now, with the rising levels of gun violence, especially among children recently, I haven't even asked in this thread if gun control laws were right but rather what alternatives to gun control exist.Â*Â*
And gun hater you were told many times now to punish the criminals, not the law abiding citizens. The unarmed citizens killed by these criminals at the school shootings are dead because of gun ban laws demanded by the gun haters for gun free zones at schools.
These people are dead because of the gun haters that denied them the right to defend themselves.
Obviously you have nothing to offer on that question, and that's fine,
You gun hater have been told repeatedly, you just do not like the simple answer.
but stop twisting my concern into something that it's not just to argue. It's counter-productive.
I have not twisted anything. You gun hater do not like the fact that more and more people are now seeing through the leftist aka progressive attack on the right to bear arms.
Â*Â*All it takes is a light bulb or two and you prevent (a.k.a. stopping) crimes.
Well gun hater that just makes it easier for the criminals to see what they are doing. Most if not all convenient stores that are open are lighted up at night.
Â*Â*What alternative to gun control do you propose to address the rising levels of gun violence in America?
Once again gun hater, punishment for the criminal use of a gun.
Â*Â*Tell us how do you stop a crime.
Now tell us gun hater how you would stop a crime. Oh wait you said light bulbs. Whoops I forgot you do not like the criminals to work in the dark, they could hurt themselves.

Hey ah gun hater do criminals obey gun control laws? Hint the last couple of school shootings would say they do not.

[BoogyMan]

Â*Â*What alternative to gun control do you propose to address the rising levels of gun violence in America?

Once again gun hater, punishment for the criminal use of a gun.


Ummm, DHard, what do you suppose we do with people who shoot other people? Criminal use of a gun is just that C R I M I N A L. I don't support gun control either, but to say that we shouldn't punish criminals who commit their crimes with guns is assinine.

[sbannon]

DHard3006, I see you couldn't quote me on any of the things you claimed I said or lies you claimed I told. An apology would have been appropriate and not made you look bad, just human.

On the issue, is my question really that hard to understand? You keep telling me what we should do after a crime is committed--but we already do that!

My question is simply what--other than gun control--can be done to address the rising levels of gun violence in America? Before it occurs.

[lily]

So, does everyone here think that Americans would accept the tax hikes required to fund either of these options?


I can wager they will would be willing to accept the tax hikes versus arming the teachers and school staff.Â*Â*Now whether either happens will be up to the parents, school board district, and of course the tax payer.


Both of you make good suggestions, but after thinking about this it brought to mind, again the cost. I'm sure that those schools in the better neighborhoods would be more than willing, but in the inner-city the parents would be willing, but not have the money. As we have seen, suburbian schools have the programs that have all been cut out of the curriculum. Either the parents pay for them directly or their taxes are higher. It would be just another way of demonstrating the "war of the class system".

[DHard3006]

My question is simply what--other than gun control--can be done to address the rising levels of gun violence in America? Before it occurs.
And gun hater you were told to punish the criminal.
You have been asked and asked how do you prevent a crime. Your lame answer was use light bulbs. Did the school shooting happen at night or during the day? Light bulbs are kind of useless during daylight time.

So tell us gun hater, just how do you prevent a crime?
There are how many people dead today because gun haters demanded and got gun free zones at schools. Just tell us gun hater how you would have prevented these deaths.

By the way gun hater, you are still responsible for the deaths of these law abiding citizens because you defend gun free zones to deal with school violence.

Oh and yes gun hater you have yet to answer a simple question. Do criminals obey gun control laws?