The Big Question Democrats Are Ducking

[Rightlane]

But with a few notable exceptions, the Democrats are mostly ducking the hard question of what to do next. They act as if all those America-hating terrorists will evaporate back into the sands of Anbar province if the United States pulls out its troops. Alas, that is not the case. That is the problem with Iraq -- it is not an easy mistake to fix.

An example of the Democrats' fudge on Iraq was highlighted yesterday by Post columnist Dana Milbank in his description of retired Maj. Gen. John Batiste's appearance before the Senate Democratic Policy Committee. Senators cheered Batiste's evisceration of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld but tuned out Batiste's call for more troops and more patience in Iraq, and his admonition: "We must mobilize our country for a protracted challenge."

Here's a reality check for the Democrats: There is not a single government in the Middle East, with the possible exceptions of Iran and Syria, that favors a rapid U.S. pullout from Iraq. Why? The consensus in the region is that a retreat now would have disastrous consequences for America and its allies. Yet withdrawal is the Iraq strategy you hear from most congressional Democrats, whether they call it "strategic redeployment" or something else.

Read more at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/26/AR2006092601137.html

[Elrathin]

I don't believe in a rapid withdrawl from Iraq, but what I do believe in is setting a time for us to leave.

Right now the IRaqis as a whole ARE NOT standing up for themselves and fighting, they are letting us do it. By setting a deadline it will force the IRaqis to either fight or succumb to the insurgents.

We cannot win the war in Iraq, only the Iraqis can. If they do not wish to, then I say leave them for the inurgents, because we cannot wait forever for them to fight and we cannot afford financially to stay there forever in the capacity we are now.

I'm not saying this needs to be done in a year or even two, but yes a deadline needs to be set and enforced.

[Rider]

Elrathin, the problem with what you suggest is that setting a timetable lets the enemy know two things:
1. Your strategy is not going to be to defeat them, but to hold on.
2. It let's them plan on when to make their big move.

[lily]

Rightlane

That is the problem with Iraq -- it is not an easy mistake to fix.

I'm glad to see someone admit it!

Rider

2. It let's them plan on when to make their big move.

psssssttt.......sooner or later they are going to notice we are gone.

Odd, we have given them timetable on everything else and the world didn't end.

[Elrathin]

Elrathin, the problem with what you suggest is that setting a timetable lets the enemy know two things:
1. Your strategy is not going to be to defeat them, but to hold on.
2. It let's them plan on when to make their big move.


Refute to your #1: Unless the Iraqis stand together as a whole, it's not going to work anyway.

Refute to your #2: The enemy already is realizing the Iraqis are NOT FIGHTING AS A WHOLE. Nothing we can do can stop that little tid bit of information.

BOTTOM LINE: ONLY THE IRAQIS CAN STOP THIS. They are not doing it. So , you think the insurgency isn't picking up on this?

[Rider]

Elrathin,
I am puzzled by your assertion that Iraqis "as a whole" are not fighting. Thousands of volunteers flow into their armed forces. Our troops marvel at how recruits for the army and police forces are slaughtered by the hundreds, yet keep coming. They also know that the terrorists fear the Iraqi forces more than ours as they are (of course) better at rooting them out.

[Rider]

Lily wrote-
psssssttt.......sooner or later they are going to notice we are gone.

Lily, when the enemy genuinely fears that he will face our military to the end they will be much less likely to continue and will have far fewer recruits. If we stupidly tell them we are pulling out at a given time they realize that victory is within their grasp. How can you fail to realize this?

Odd, we have given them timetable on everything else and the world didn't end.

This last statement is such nonsense that if you could make it, you wouldn't be capable of understanding the answer.

[Elrathin]

Elrathin,
I am puzzled by your assertion that Iraqis "as a whole" are not fighting. Thousands of volunteers flow into their armed forces. Our troops marvel at how recruits for the army and police forces are slaughtered by the hundreds, yet keep coming. They also know that the terrorists fear the Iraqi forces more than ours as they are (of course) better at rooting them out.


Thousands, there should be MILLIONS that are doing this. It is their country afterall if they want it, they are gonna have to WANT to fight for it.

I stand by with what I said. If the majority of Iraqis were not standing on the sidelines, then Al-Qaeda in Iraq would have NOWHERE to hide. As it stands they do.

[piratemonkey]

Simple answer:
There isn't a good plan for Iraq.

You're on a burning, sinking ship surrounded by sharks.
Do you stay on the ship or jump off?

This is the question you pose to us.Â*Â*There is no good solution for Iraq anymore, only a choice between bad ones.

If you don't like that fact, you shouldn't have supported the invasion on false pretenses and without adequate planning.

[Rider]

Elrathin wrote- Thousands, there should be MILLIONS that are doing this. It is their country afterall if they want it, they are gonna have to WANT to fight for it.

I stand by with what I said. If the majority of Iraqis were not standing on the sidelines, then Al-Qaeda in Iraq would have NOWHERE to hide. As it stands they do.
Just off hand, I can't think of a single situation where a general uprising of the populace against a heavily armed and disciplined force has occured. The idea that the general citizenry would somehow stand up against the insurgent groups, especially Al Qaeda is absurd. They and their families would be slaughtered. As it stands now not all of the recruits can be processed immediately. I don't think that your concept is realistic.

[Elrathin]

I don't think that your concept is realistic.


If you don't think it is realistic, then the war in Iraq will never end. The people have to WANT to stand up and fight this. We can't stay there forever. Al-Qaeda has to be weeded out and if the majority do not turn them in, they will be forever entrenched in Iraq. That is the bottom line truth.

Al-Qaeda is not a country we can bomb and defeat. They are fighting as Guerrillas in cities, towns, and villages. As long as they have a safe-haven by the majority not fighting, then they will remain in Iraq.

The only way to win a guerilla war is to get the MAJORITY of the people actually fighting the enemy, or you decimate the entire country, Al-Qaeda and civilian alike. There has been NO OTHER WAY a guerrilla war has been won other than those two options.

[Rider]

Elrathin,
I think that we may be talking past one another on this issue. I don't disagree with your basic idea here. Have you seen any polls that show the Iraqi people's approval of Al Qaeda? I haven't. I can't imagine why such a large percentage of the population would risk death to come out and vote, yet support a terrorist group that would forbid them that very right to vote. It's my understanding that Iraqis in the provinces that are home to the insurgencies are providing a lot of intelligence to our forces and the Iraqi forces. Also, a number of the militias are willing to discuss disarming under certain conditions. I think that there is a lot more hope for the country than you acknowledge.

[Elrathin]

Have you seen any polls that show the Iraqi people's approval of Al Qaeda? I haven't.

They didn't apporve of Saddam either. However, they didn't fight him either. That is what I am afraid of now. They view Al-Qaeda as being more powerful than the U.S. and therefore will not fight or do anything against them as a majority.


I can't imagine why such a large percentage of the population would risk death to come out and vote, yet support a terrorist group that would forbid them that very right to vote.

I never said they would support or even like Al-Qaeda, but yes, they are afraid of Al-Qaeda. They came out to vote because they knew the U.s. had ample forced protecting polling places.


It's my understanding that Iraqis in the provinces that are home to the insurgencies are providing a lot of intelligence to our forces and the Iraqi forces.

Yes, they are doing it, but they are not doing it as a majority. Hence my comments about the situation.


Also, a number of the militias are willing to discuss disarming under certain conditions. I think that there is a lot more hope for the country than you acknowledge.


Maybe so, we'll see, but so far I have not seen it and the longer and longer Al-Qaeda is there, the worse off the country will be.

I would love to be wrong, I really would. Even if it would make Bush a national hero, I would love to be wrong. I just don't think I am about this.

[Rider]

Elrathin,
The population is indeed very frightened of Al Qaeda. The talk of any kind of timetable for our withdrawal will put an absolute damper on any resistance to Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda says that it will drive the US out of Iraq. President Bush says that we will stay until the government of Iraq has control of the situation. I happen to think that that makes sense.

Exactly what percentage of the population is actively opposing Al Qaeda? How could you possibly know? The question really is- how many Iraqis have to assist the US and Iraqi forces for Al Qaeda to be destroyed? I doubt that it's more than 10-15%.

[lily]

Rider



Lily, when the enemy genuinely fears that he will face our military to the end they will be much less likely to continue and will have far fewer recruits.

.........and how is that working out so far? For every one we kill 6 more join up.

If we stupidly tell them we are pulling out at a given time they realize that victory is within their grasp. How can you fail to realize this?

We gave the Iraqis time tables for each and every election.
We gave the Iraqis time tables for getting their parliment together.
We gave the Iraqis time tables for writing their constitution......even telling them finish it up, you can ammend it later.
Why don't you think giving them a time table to stand up isn't going to work? We can fight for their freedom until the cows come home....but they're going to have to want it more than we want it for them, for this to work.



This last statement is such nonsense that if you could make it, you wouldn't be capable of understanding the answer.

I see.......well, I guess I'm done then.