Gut Check: Foreclosure's fallout

[lily]

Link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24598778/)

Gut Check: Foreclosure's fallout
As housing crisis deepens, how is it affecting your community?




It was almost like watching a train wreck in slow motion. Beginning in late
2005, people who had purchased homes at the peak of the housing bubble
started getting hit with a double whammy: Declining real estate values and
rising monthly payments on adjustable-rate mortgages.

U.S. home foreclosure filings have been rising ever since. In the first
quarter of this year, foreclosures jumped 23 percent over the prior quarter
and were more than double year-earlier as more overextended borrowers failed
to make timely payments. Many of them were defaulting on "subprime" loans
issued to borrowers with poor credit histories.



The House of Representatives recently passed a bill promising relief —
including $15 billion in loans and grants to states for buying and fixing up
foreclosed property to help prevent neighborhood blight and stabilize the
housing market.

But President Bush has vowed to veto the bill if it reaches his desk, saying
the measure rewards lenders and irresponsible borrowers at the expense of
homeowners and renters who made more prudent choices.

As the debate heats up in Washington, how are rising home foreclosures
affecting your community? Are you seeing more empty homes and other
buildings? Is your town or city suffering problems due to a shrinking tax
base? What about the general quality of life?

[ViolaLee]

There's lots of for sale signs and prices are plummeting.

[DamnYankee]

I live in a community with a lot of seniors. Prices have risen, slightly.

[Drocket]

We now have a family living in a camping trailer in my neighbor's back yard. Yeah, its affecting my area.

[Buck Laser]

Austin is probably doing a bit better than most cities. But I've noticed since about nine months ago that houses--some houses stay on the market longer than they did a year ago. Surprisingly, a house on my street attracted four offers in its first week on the market.

What I find dismaying in this whole thing is that my email and my mailbox are absolutely FULL of offers for equity loans, refinancing, or some other dipshit financial action. As I've said before, I think most of the burden for this meltdown falls heaviest on the banking industry, but followed closely by the gummint. The bankers figured that being deregulated gave them license to do whatever the hell they want to, while the administration has been distancing itself from effective legislation to keep the bankers from screwing the public since the early days of the Reagan administration.

I don't exempt the borrowers from their share of the blame, but they are really the least significant element in the crisis. The banks could have decided any time they wanted to to to tighten their credit standards. Instead they went for the easy money--and now they want the gummint to pull their fat out of the fire.

[apdst]

More Leftist fear mongering.

[Elrathin]

More Leftist fear mongering.

Your statement is funny considering your other statements.

The simple fact is foreclosures are having an impact, just not everywhere......yet.

[apdst]

The simple fact is foreclosures are having an impact, just not everywhere......yet.

And the more you harp on it, the more people will get nervous, the less money they spend, the worse the economy will get. Oh, I get it.

[Elrathin]

And the more you harp on it, the more people will get nervous, the less money they spend, the worse the economy will get. Oh, I get it.

Yep play the kill the messenger game, I got it. As usual the so called consumers......oh I mean conservatives play their little games.

[lily]

There's lots of for sale signs and prices are plummeting.


I wish we had the for sale signs.....there are now 7 abandonded houses on my block alone.

apdst

More Leftist fear mongering.

Ignore it and it will go away....the Bush doctrine.

[apdst]

“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over” -Joeseph Goebbels

[Elrathin]

“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over” -Joeseph Goebbels

BLAH BLAH BLAH, that doesn't change the fact of the foreclosure crisis we are currently facing.

[Phyxius]

“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over” -Joeseph Goebbels


9/11!!! 9/11!!! 9/11!!! 9/11!!! 9/11!!! 9/11!!! 9/11!!! :madlaugh:

[Elrathin]

Funny that doesn't change the crisis we are having with foreclosures still.

[apdst]

9/11!!! 9/11!!! 9/11!!! 9/11!!! 9/11!!! 9/11!!! 9/11!!!

No amount of not talking about was going to take away from the fact that 9/11 actually happened.

[Phyxius]

No amount of not talking about was going to take away from the fact that 9/11 actually happened.

No amount of not talking is going to take away the fact that the economy is in the shitter, either... :nana:



And that "conservatives" led us there...

[Elrathin]

No amount of not talking about was going to take away from the fact that 9/11 actually happened.

So let me get this straight you as a so called conservative are blaming 9/11 now on this crisis we are having after 7 years of Republicans at the helm?

Just trying to get this straight.

[firefox]

I voted for "not enough to notice" as I'm near Seattle right now. Down in socal where I'm headed, the situation is significantly different.

[PostmodernProphet]

here we seem to be through the worst and on our way out the other side.....

[PostmodernProphet]

I wish we had the for sale signs.....there are now 7 abandonded houses on my block alone.


Ignore it and it will go away....the Bush doctrine.

Lily, you live in Detroit......you people still have houses abandoned since the Carter administration.....

[Easy90]

Yeah....it's really rough out there... Why do you know that nationwide, banks have repossessed nearly 3 of every 1000 homes this year? And that's a percentage thats UP NEARLY 71% from last year...(before the "crisis") when they took back about 1.7% per 1000 homes financed!* LOL!

Lily...if you live in a neighborhood with 7 abandoned homes on one block...you live in a ghetto! You should MOVE!

It's true however, that the numbers are up...but there's a reason...and it has nothing to do with the evil "Bush." For the past decade, housing prices have been inflated by the pressure of record low unemployment...record high demand...record low market entry criteria (meaning anyone with a job and a pulse could borrow virtually 100% of the inflated price of a home..roll in the taxes, insurance, commissions, and lender fees...because the lenders figured that even if they defaulted...the home would re-sell for more than was owed on it.) And for a decade, that was a valid (short term) concept. But every balloon has an elastic limit...and we finally are approaching the housing market limit.

Gee...and it's during a political season....how convenient for the party that capitalizes on ignorance, deception and fear mongering! LOL!
*LINK (http://seekingalpha.com/article/72525-states-step-in-as-foreclosures-balloon-housing-market-tracker)

[apdst]

No amount of not talking is going to take away the fact that the economy is in the shitter, either

It's not in the shitter. The economy slowed, but it's along way from taking a dump.

[Easy90]

The left has been trying to say we have a bad economy from the first day Bush was in office. As all the numbers kept improving....they maintained the numbers didn't mean anything. Now that some have leveled off...guess what!? They mean something...LOL! Lefties...can't live with em....can't shoot em...Luckily...a lot of them get caught in police chases and just go to jail.

[potter]

Here in the plains housing is pretty stable. We really didn't have a "bubble" here.

I think it's taking a little longer to sell the houses, and some have reduced the asking price, but those are houses that have issues to begin with (too big, bad floor plan, no yard, etc....

But they are selling....and the stores are always busy it seems....

:thumbsup:

The mortgage bailout is bullshit...if Bush vetos it it will be the first good thing he's done.....

[lily]

Lily, you live in Detroit......you people still have houses abandoned since the Carter administration.....

Well, actually I live on just on the other side of the border, but since a lot of the plants moved out of Detroit and moved just to the border, that is whare most of the workers also moved to.......and then out.


Easy 90 wrote:

Lily...if you live in a neighborhood with 7 abandoned homes on one block...you live in a ghetto! You should MOVE!

WOW.......I think that is the nicest thing anyone has ever offered me! So when are you going to buy me a new one?:nana:

......but seriously, this isn't my house, it's my home.......it's paid for and I ain't going nowhere.

[Osborn F. Enready]

My area has been seeing the bad side of the economy for the last 15 years.

We have lost several full and part time jobs, almost all jobs that offered benefits and/or medical insurance, and those losses can be tracked directly to India, China and Mexico(where of course workers rights are a minimum, as is their pay and benefits).
This area (N.W. Ohio, S.E. Michigan) was a huge labor source for the auto-manufacturers, all of their subsidiaries both in original equipment and aftermarket suppliers, as well as historicly the glass capital of the world regarding production. What was once a production capital, is now a mass of marginally successful box-stores and warehouses, interspersed by polluting refineries, chemical companies and of course, farmland. There are brightspots and draws to this area, but in this market they are few and far between.

Our housing market is permeated with homes in all price ranges and conditions, and we are in a classic over-supply situation here. Great market for buyers not needing loans, that are interested in retirement as opposed to career seeking younger people, but neither the climate nor the eco-quality of the area (except rural) promote retirement mindsets very well.

[ptif219]

I sold my mother-in-laws house back in janurary.I fixed it up and lowered the price and it sold.


My realestate person was surprised and said it was because of my effort and wisdom of the situation.

We have this problem because banks lowered their standards and people did not read the fine print and bought above what their income could handle.


Yst according to the left it is bush's fault. :ponder:

[Osborn F. Enready]

I don't know about it being BUSH's fault, though many of our problems today are agitated by his actions while in office..... but there was quite a bit of fraud perpetrated by the banks offering those loans, on their consumers.

[ptif219]

I don't know about it being BUSH's fault, though many of our problems today are agitated by his actions while in office..... but there was quite a bit of fraud perpetrated by the banks offering those loans, on their consumers.

Funny how you don't see the consumers at fault.

[lily]

Ptif.......if the consumer was being defrauded do you think they would be stupid enough to sign on the dotted line?

[ptif219]

Ptif.......if the consumer was being defrauded do you think they would be stupid enough to sign on the dotted line?

Not reading and knowing the way the loan works is not being defrauded.

I know interest only loans and balloon loans are bad.

People were looking for away to live out side of their means.

The one that is to blame for getting the wrong loan or a loan you cannot pay is the person that signed on the dotted line.

[lily]

Sorry (http://www.idfpr.com/newsrls/011907govidfpr4050susp.asp)
ptif (http://www.mortgagefraud.org/display/ShowJournal?moduleId=78225&categoryId=8631)
you (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071129/BIZ01/711290384/0/BIZ01)
are (http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/mow/news2006/thomas_phillip.sen.htm)
wrong (http://www.fraudblogger.com/Blog061905.asp)
again (http://www.cantonrep.com/printable.php?ID=394035)
. (http://www.startribune.com/business/11223151.html)

[ptif219]

Sorry (http://www.idfpr.com/newsrls/011907govidfpr4050susp.asp)
ptif (http://www.mortgagefraud.org/display/ShowJournal?moduleId=78225&categoryId=8631)
you (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071129/BIZ01/711290384/0/BIZ01)
are (http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/mow/news2006/thomas_phillip.sen.htm)
wrong (http://www.fraudblogger.com/Blog061905.asp)
again (http://www.cantonrep.com/printable.php?ID=394035)
. (http://www.startribune.com/business/11223151.html)

Would you care to explain since your links aren't showing up on the page.

[ptif219]

Would you care to explain since your links aren't showing up on the page.

Ok a few fraud cases but that does not give the consumer a pass.

Use a realestate attorney.

Know who you are dealing with when you sign on the dotted line you are responsible.

[Osborn F. Enready]

ptif219 said:
Funny how you don't see the consumers at fault.

I agreed that there are many cases where consumers are at fault, but I think few will argue that the fine print defines most contracts in todays consumer products and services in the U.S.

Some places do honest and up front business, and treat their consumers well, while some draw up purposely confusing and unnecessarily complex contracts to make poor products, seem appealing to those who would normally know better.

I am not big on painting with a broad brush, I think these cases should be handled individually, but I think the government has an obligation to consumers to take corrective action in cases where there are large groups of people who were taken advantage of by contracts purposely worded to obfuscate payments for both short and long term, as well as where financing was given repeatedly to people who couldn't meet the criteria of credit to get the loan in the first place.

ptif said:
Ok a few fraud cases but that does not give the consumer a pass.

Yet you expect the consumer to give loaning institutions a pass, when multiple cases of fraud can be found with little investigation?

ptif said:
Use a realestate attorney.

Attorneys are usually only as good as their fee, and some of these contracts were out of the league of many an attorney.

ptif said:
Know who you are dealing with when you sign on the dotted line you are responsible.

No kidding, but the loan provider is responsible also, if for no other reason than to protects its assets and investments. Making loans people can't afford hurts everyone, the entire market, including the banks. Its a matter of playing the government (cough)taxpayer(cough) insurance fund.

[ptif219]

I agreed that there are many cases where consumers are at fault, but I think few will argue that the fine print defines most contracts in todays consumer products and services in the U.S.

Some places do honest and up front business, and treat their consumers well, while some draw up purposely confusing and unnecessarily complex contracts to make poor products, seem appealing to those who would normally know better.

I am not big on painting with a broad brush, I think these cases should be handled individually, but I think the government has an obligation to consumers to take corrective action in cases where there are large groups of people who were taken advantage of by contracts purposely worded to obfuscate payments for both short and long term, as well as where financing was given repeatedly to people who couldn't meet the criteria of credit to get the loan in the first place.



Yet you expect the consumer to give loaning institutions a pass, when multiple cases of fraud can be found with little investigation?



Attorneys are usually only as good as their fee, and some of these contracts were out of the league of many an attorney.



No kidding, but the loan provider is responsible also, if for no other reason than to protects its assets and investments. Making loans people can't afford hurts everyone, the entire market, including the banks. Its a matter of playing the government (cough)taxpayer(cough) insurance fund.

Are you for real.The consumers are not responsible.By the way in the begining i said Banks were responsible for changing loan qualifications and using new types of loans like interest only loans.

A big part of the problem was people trying to live outside of their means.


Now you say lawyers wouldn't help?Give me a break.


More deception to give people no responsibility for their actions.

[Osborn F. Enready]

ptif said:
Are you for real.The consumers are not responsible.

I like how you dismiss the entire market of consumers responsibility with one five word sentence. It surely adds to your credibility. Are you a consumer?

ptif said:
By the way in the begining i said Banks were responsible for changing loan qualifications and using new types of loans like interest only loans.

A big part of the problem was people trying to live outside of their means.

I don't dispute some did attempt to do so, many with the aid of being FRAUDED based on BS contracts.

ptif said:
Now you say lawyers wouldn't help?Give me a break.

I am saying they have demonstrated that some of those loans were worded so poorly, that the "average skill level" attorney couldn't precisely define what was being said.

ptif said:
More deception to give people no responsibility for their actions.

Yea, thats me..... criticizing individual responsibility......trying to bring in the nanny state.... ROFLMAO.

[ptif219]

I like how you dismiss the entire market of consumers responsibility with one five word sentence. It surely adds to your credibility. Are you a consumer?



I don't dispute some did attempt to do so, many with the aid of being FRAUDED based on BS contracts.



I am saying they have demonstrated that some of those loans were worded so poorly, that the "average skill level" attorney couldn't precisely define what was being said.



Yea, thats me..... criticizing individual responsibility......trying to bring in the nanny state.... ROFLMAO.



Keep justifying but I have a mortgage with a fixed interest and home equity line of credit with a variable rate.

But I bought within my means.

Lawyers are trained to read contracts.So if it is that poorly worded a good lawyer will tell you to not sign.


I would not get a poor lawyer again it is up to consumers to do their homework.

[Osborn F. Enready]

ptif said:
Keep justifying


....the facts of the situation need no further justification from me. Fraud in many cases has been shown, as well as in some cases consumers were solely to blame. What is to justify?


ptif said:
but I have a mortgage with a fixed interest and home equity line of credit with a variable rate.

But I bought within my means.

Good for you.... that means you are a consumer, that doesn't meet the "definition" you so quickly attached to EVERY OTHER CONSUMER IN THE MARKET.... you must be realllllly special.....or comfortable at throwing stones while you live in a glass house.

ptif said:
Lawyers are trained to read contracts.So if it is that poorly worded a good lawyer will tell you to not sign.

One would hope....but lawyers are only accountable to what point? Are you saying its IMPOSSIBLE to get bad advice from a lawyer? I know for a fact many inmates would disagree. I also know for a fact that some of the TOP lawyers in some of the TOP schools of law, have admitted some of these contracts were absolute frauds by design, and that many lower level lawyers would struggle to fully understand the contracts.

ptif said:
I would not get a poor lawyer again it is up to consumers to do their homework.

So producers and banks have no responsibility according to you, regardless of how far the product is from what was advertised by them to get you to sign on the dotted line?

You should really look up laws regarding FRAUD in our legal system then.

[ptif219]

....the facts of the situation need no further justification from me. Fraud in many cases has been shown, as well as in some cases consumers were solely to blame. What is to justify?




Good for you.... that means you are a consumer, that doesn't meet the "definition" you so quickly attached to EVERY OTHER CONSUMER IN THE MARKET.... you must be realllllly special.....or comfortable at throwing stones while you live in a glass house.



One would hope....but lawyers are only accountable to what point? Are you saying its IMPOSSIBLE to get bad advice from a lawyer? I know for a fact many inmates would disagree. I also know for a fact that some of the TOP lawyers in some of the TOP schools of law, have admitted some of these contracts were absolute frauds by design, and that many lower level lawyers would struggle to fully understand the contracts.



So producers and banks have no responsibility according to you, regardless of how far the product is from what was advertised by them to get you to sign on the dotted line?

You should really look up laws regarding FRAUD in our legal system then.

The difference is when I got my loans and refinanced I did my homework and protected myself and my family.

I was resposnsible for my actions when I signed on the dotted line.

You want to excuse people for fraud but they should have done their home work and known who they were dealing with.

Buying a house is a big step not to be taken lightly to do it correctly is a lot of work on the buyers part.

Also a word of advice never by a house until you get it inspected by a well known and competent inspection person.

[Osborn F. Enready]

ptif said:
The difference is when I got my loans and refinanced I did my homework and protected myself and my family.

...and you got lucky, because you got good advice from a lawyer that you could afford, and you WEREN'T the victim of a FRAUDULENT LOAN.

So yes, you did your part, and the banks you got the loan from seemingly did their part.... that is how things are supposed to work.

You seem to deny that lending institutions sometimes use questionable tactics to get customers they normally couldn't.......and you also seemingly deny that fraud is a crime?

ptif said:
I was resposnsible for my actions when I signed on the dotted line.

Good for you, I wish all people were like that, but they aren't, nor are all banking institutions honest, well intentioned members of their local community.

ptif said:
You want to excuse people for fraud but they should have done their home work and known who they were dealing with.

Again, do you even KNOW what fraud is?

Fraud:
intentional deception resulting in injury to another person

Fraud is being PURPOSELY misled by a producer or service provider, to by a product or service that doesn't meet the CLAIMED or PROMISED expectations, or a case when ALL of the facts are not OPENLY DISCLOSED before point of sale.

ptif said:
Buying a house is a big step not to be taken lightly to do it correctly is a lot of work on the buyers part.

Who disputed that?!? Certianly not I.

ptif said:
Also a word of advice never by a house until you get it inspected by a well known and competent inspection person.

No doubt, I have a friend who buys and improves homes for resale, I am quite familliar with the process involved.

[ptif219]

...and you got lucky, because you got good advice from a lawyer that you could afford, and you WEREN'T the victim of a FRAUDULENT LOAN.

So yes, you did your part, and the banks you got the loan from seemingly did their part.... that is how things are supposed to work.

You seem to deny that lending institutions sometimes use questionable tactics to get customers they normally couldn't.......and you also seemingly deny that fraud is a crime?



Good for you, I wish all people were like that, but they aren't, nor are all banking institutions honest, well intentioned members of their local community.



Again, do you even KNOW what fraud is?

Fraud:
intentional deception resulting in injury to another person

Fraud is being PURPOSELY misled by a producer or service provider, to by a product or service that doesn't meet the CLAIMED or PROMISED expectations, or a case when ALL of the facts are not OPENLY DISCLOSED before point of sale.



Who disputed that?!? Certianly not I.



No doubt, I have a friend who buys and improves homes for resale, I am quite familliar with the process involved.

There was no luck and actually I did not use a lawyer.I did my homework and bought from a private seller.


People who committ fraud prey on people who are lazy and don't do their home work.They push the consumer to trust them and tell them they don't need help or lawyers or inspections.


If people get help from the start and do their home work fraud will be minimal.I think any way a small percetage was fraud.


Most was people buying when loans were cheap and buying outside their means and not knowing how these stupid loans worked.

As a matter a fact my original loan was a VA loan I refinanced later to a conventional loan.

[Osborn F. Enready]

ptif said:
There was no luck

Luck was a poor word... I should have said you came out on the better side of chance.

ptif said:
and actually I did not use a lawyer.I did my homework and bought from a private seller.

All good, assuming your private seller wasn't attempting to fraud you, which you claim he wasn't, so all is good.

ptif said:
People who committ fraud prey on people who are lazy and don't do their home work.

In some cases....

In some cases they also prey on those of limited budgets and experience, those who lack ability to raise legal fees to fight a court battle based on fraud, and those who are simply uneducated.

I find it funny, and obviously biased that you are so quick to blame the consumer, while removing all blame from bad banks who issued bad loans.

Does the bank not have a vested intrest to ensure that their customers can make the payments on any loan they grant, assuming their income level remains the same?
They push the consumer to trust them and tell them they don't need help or lawyers or inspections.

ptif said:
If people get help from the start and do their home work fraud will be minimal.I think any way a small percetage was fraud.

Well, since its your opinion... I can simply agree to disagree. My opinion differs, and the facts bear out that by percentage, little investigation turned up much fraud in regards to a few banks that put out MANY loans.

ptif said:
Most was people buying when loans were cheap and buying outside their means and not knowing how these stupid loans worked.

Again, I stated clearly I though it was a mix of some cases being fraud, and some cases being the fault of consumers. Thats why I think each cases should be handled as individual cases, and in cases where many cases of fraud eminated from one loaning institution, that institutions loans should be scrutinized closely and they should be held fully accountable.

ptif said:
As a matter a fact my original loan was a VA loan I refinanced later to a conventional loan.

Glad to here that worked out for you.

[ptif219]

Luck was a poor word... I should have said you came out on the better side of chance.

Not luck or chance i did my homework.

All good, assuming your private seller wasn't attempting to fraud you, which you claim he wasn't, so all is good.



In some cases....

In some cases they also prey on those of limited budgets and experience, those who lack ability to raise legal fees to fight a court battle based on fraud, and those who are simply uneducated.

I find it funny, and obviously biased that you are so quick to blame the consumer, while removing all blame from bad banks who issued bad loans.

Does the bank not have a vested intrest to ensure that their customers can make the payments on any loan they grant, assuming their income level remains the same?
They push the consumer to trust them and tell them they don't need help or lawyers or inspections.

I did not have a lot of money at the time I was making $9 an hour i used my last two thousand plus dollars for closing costs.

It does nat necessarily take money when I bought my house I was making $9 an hour.I used my last two thousand plus dollars for closing cost.It does take a lot of time and effort to do the homework on the phone and on the computer.I have repeatedly said the types of loans and change in qualifications for loans were are part of the problem.

Well, since its your opinion... I can simply agree to disagree. My opinion differs, and the facts bear out that by percentage, little investigation turned up much fraud in regards to a few banks that put out MANY loans.

What percentage of nationwide loans involve fraud over the last ten years.If you cannot answer that then I would have to say it was a small percentage since this has not made national news headlines.

Again, I stated clearly I though it was a mix of some cases being fraud, and some cases being the fault of consumers. Thats why I think each cases should be handled as individual cases, and in cases where many cases of fraud eminated from one loaning institution, that institutions loans should be scrutinized closely and they should be held fully accountable.

I agree but the banks responsibility may be hard with all their lobbyist in Washington and all their influence.As for fraud someone will have to show proof.Sadly it may end up the person who is responsible is the one who signed on the dotted line.That may be why I keep hearing about abandoned houses that tells me people know they screwed up and can't possibly pay for it and don't want to go to court.

Glad to here that worked out for you.

Thanks, but it took months of leg work I was fortunate to have a stay at home wife that did most of it.

[Osborn F. Enready]

ptif said:
I did not have a lot of money at the time I was making $9 an hour i used my last two thousand plus dollars for closing costs.

It does nat necessarily take money when I bought my house I was making $9 an hour.I used my last two thousand plus dollars for closing cost.It does take a lot of time and effort to do the homework on the phone and on the computer.I have repeatedly said the types of loans and change in qualifications for loans were are part of the problem.

My point is that well constructed fraud is very difficult to detect.

LILO Leasing is a prime example of a well constructed tax shelter fraud.


ptif said:
What percentage of nationwide loans involve fraud over the last ten years.If you cannot answer that then I would have to say it was a small percentage since this has not made national news headlines.

Here is a nice site to review the topic we are speaking on, mortgage loan fraud:
http://www.fincen.gov/news_room/rp/reports/html/mortgage_fraud112006.html

PDF:
http://www.fincen.gov/news_room/rp/reports/pdf/MortgageLoanFraud.pdf

Here is another more local paper covering a recent headline:
The FBI said Tuesday that reports of suspected mortgage fraud rose 31 percent to 46717 in fiscal 2007, which ended Sept. 30, 2007.
http://www.idahostatesman.com/235/story/381840.html

Here is a link to the FBI investigation on mortgage fraud:
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/fraud/mortgage_fraud06.htm


Please ask if you would like me to provide more sources, which are readily available from a cursory, basic search on google.

ptif said:
I agree but the banks responsibility may be hard with all their lobbyist in Washington and all their influence.

I don't dispute that one bit, and I readily admit that our nation is entirely screwed regarding its bi-partisan corrupted system.

Republicans and Democrats have foisted this type of fraud on consumers since the 1900's through their ill-thought out, ill-planned bad law making and attempt to apply subjective laws to the economic and social legal code and system.

ptif said:
As for fraud someone will have to show proof.

There is a lot of proof to go around, as you can see in the links I provided above.

ptif said:
Sadly it may end up the person who is responsible is the one who signed on the dotted line.

That was by design in many cases, hence the implication and allegations of fraud.

ptif said:
That may be why I keep hearing about abandoned houses that tells me people know they screwed up and can't possibly pay for it and don't want to go to court.

Some surely did knowingly get into deals that sounded and were to good to be true. Some however were victims of fraud, hence why I say each case should be handled individually.

[ptif219]

My point is that well constructed fraud is very difficult to detect.

LILO Leasing is a prime example of a well constructed tax shelter fraud.




Here is a nice site to review the topic we are speaking on, mortgage loan fraud:
http://www.fincen.gov/news_room/rp/reports/html/mortgage_fraud112006.html

PDF:
http://www.fincen.gov/news_room/rp/reports/pdf/MortgageLoanFraud.pdf

Here is another more local paper covering a recent headline:
The FBI said Tuesday that reports of suspected mortgage fraud rose 31 percent to 46717 in fiscal 2007, which ended Sept. 30, 2007.
http://www.idahostatesman.com/235/story/381840.html

Here is a link to the FBI investigation on mortgage fraud:
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/fraud/mortgage_fraud06.htm


Please ask if you would like me to provide more sources, which are readily available from a cursory, basic search on google.



I don't dispute that one bit, and I readily admit that our nation is entirely screwed regarding its bi-partisan corrupted system.

Republicans and Democrats have foisted this type of fraud on consumers since the 1900's through their ill-thought out, ill-planned bad law making and attempt to apply subjective laws to the economic and social legal code and system.



There is a lot of proof to go around, as you can see in the links I provided above.



That was by design in many cases, hence the implication and allegations of fraud.



Some surely did knowingly get into deals that sounded and were to good to be true. Some however were victims of fraud, hence why I say each case should be handled individually.

We are basically on the same page but I do not believe a majority of the forclosures are fraud.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21773741/


Congress and the White House continue to look for ways to hold back the rising tide of foreclosures being created by a wave of “resets” on adjustable-rate mortgages. Many of these ARMs will jump over the next two years from low, initial teaser rates, resulting in high payments that many homeowners’ will be unable to afford.

Though lenders are now shunning stretched borrowers with risky credit, millions of existing loans with two- and three-year introductory rates will begin resetting next year.

Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke told lawmakers in Washington last week that nearly 2.3 million subprime mortgages will reset at higher rates through the end of next year. An estimated 1 million to 2 million borrowers will be unable to avoid foreclosure.

A lot depends on how much further and longer the housing slump continues to depress home prices. It’s also far from clear how many borrowers will be able to work out arrangements to modify loan terms to keep them from losing their homes.

When foreclosure can’t be avoided, the losses extend beyond the borrower losing a home. The foreclosure process typically costs lenders added legal fees, taxes due until the property is sold and lost equity in a house that must be priced to sell in a falling market. The added inventory of unsold homes further weakens local housing markets, depressing the value of other nearby homes.

Overall, the coming rise in home foreclosures is expected to drag down property values by some $223 billion, with the most severe impact in minority communities, according to a report released this week from the Center for Responsible Lending.

The group estimates that roughly one in three households will see their property values drop by $5,000 on average as mortgages written in 2005 and 2006 reset at higher interest rates.

Property values and tax revenues will decline most sharply, the center said, in neighborhoods with lots of minority residents, who received a disproportionate share of such mortgages. The report's authors said that properties that go unsold in the foreclosure process can also raise the risk of fire and vandalism.


As I said much of the problem is people who did not do their homework and bought above their means.

It also falls on the banks with loans that have small payments the first few years and now the payments are going up causing foreclosure.

So I feel in the majority of cases the banks and consumer have caused their own problems here.

[Burning Giraffe]

I worked in the Mortgage Insurance Industry as an insurance agent and data collector. The housing market crash ended my business. I was self-employed for five years, making a ton of money, enjoying life. Two years ago I got married, and then I lost my business. Now I'm working at Walmart to pay the bills until I can find a new industry to get into. The only good part of working for Walmart is the health and life insurance I get for very cheap prices. Other than that, this sucks. Wilmington NC was experiencing one of the biggest housing booms in the nation when I moved here, and now no one can get what they paid for for their house. It's awful, but we've just got to wait it out.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Sorry to hear that Giraffe. Good luck on getting back on your feet, its a tough market right now.

[nateb]

I live in Franklin County, which is central Ohio and I heard a report that we are now the 3rd best housing market in the country at the moment. To be honest, we started getting hit with the massive forclosures before it become the problem it was nationwide so we're just recovering faster. Plus, we have a much lower cost of living that places like California, NY and Florida.

We were hit but we're coming back.

[Buck Laser]

I hear this morning that Countrywide Mortgage, which holds the mortgage on my house, is under investigation by the FBI. Real confidence builder there, eh?

[Osborn F. Enready]

My advice Buck.....take your money out of the bank and put it in the home safe.

Good luck.

[Buck Laser]

My advice Buck.....take your money out of the bank and put it in the home safe.

Good luck.
Out of what bank? All I keep in the bank is enough for current expenses. And my bank is locally owned in TX, not one of the international banks. What does this have to do with the mortgage crisis?

I don't have a subprime mortgage, either. I could have qualified for a mortgage twice as big as the one I have. But none of that keeps Countrywide from having preyed on uninformed people.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Buck said:
Out of what bank?

Do you not bank through the same place the financed your home?

Buck said:
All I keep in the bank is enough for current expenses. And my bank is locally owned in TX, not one of the international banks. What does this have to do with the mortgage crisis?

If you still owe money on the home, and the company is being investigated, I surely wouldn't let it sit in the account, that's all I was saying.

Buck said:
I don't have a subprime mortgage, either. I could have qualified for a mortgage twice as big as the one I have. But none of that keeps Countrywide from having preyed on uninformed people.

Who is disputing that?

[potter]

Do you not bank through the same place the financed your home?



Hey Osborn, the practice of bundling and selling mortgages has been going on for years. I took out my mortgage through my local bank and it's been transferred twice to new companies.

It's a bitch, and sometimes I worry that my title will end up "disappeared" on payoff, lost in the shuffle as it were....but what protection do consumers really have?

Creepy business.....

[Buck Laser]

Do you not bank through the same place the financed your home?
Of course not. Banks have been selling off mortgages for about as long as I can remember. I lived in the last house I owned for about 23 years, and we changed mortgage companies six or seven times. Remortgaging to try to prevent that costs extra money.

If you still owe money on the home, and the company is being investigated, I surely wouldn't let it sit in the account, that's all I was saying.
The only money that sits in the account is escrow for taxes and insurance. I've always stayed current on my mortgage payments. Anyway, Countryside is the biggest mortgage lender in the country. My point is that this is what happens when the regulatory agencies look the other way. I do not trust unregulated companies, particularly in finance, not to cheat.

I really don't understand this "money in the mattress" shit.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Buck said:
I really don't understand this "money in the mattress" shit.

Do you know what an economic depression is?
Do you know what the value of the dollar is?
Do you know what a bank run is?

If you can answer those yes, and you still don't get it, I will stop trying to explain it to you.

[Burning Giraffe]

Do you know what an economic depression is?
Do you know what the value of the dollar is?
Do you know what a bank run is?

If you can answer those yes, and you still don't get it, I will stop trying to explain it to you.

Even if we hide our money away, it won't be worth a damn if there is a national run on the banks. You'll need gold, silver, diamonds, crops, animals, and so forth if that happens. You'll need to know how to make your own clothes, build your own furniture, build your own house, make fresh water, and provide for your own fire wood and so forth.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Burning Giraffe said:
Even if we hide our money away, it won't be worth a damn if there is a national run on the banks.

I know this, but appreciate you pointing it out because I don't think there are many that do know it, and there are many that falsely think "it can't happen again".

Burning Giraffe said:
You'll need gold, silver, diamonds, crops, animals, and so forth if that happens.

No doubt.... but if I don't have to waste time trying to get my money out of the bank, thats more time I can use spending what I have when it happens before the value goes down, buying essentials.

I am a big champion of gold and silver for in house personal savings.

Burning Giraffe said:
You'll need to know how to make your own clothes, build your own furniture, build your own house, make fresh water, and provide for your own fire wood and so forth.

Got all that covered, including tool making.



Now, let me clear something up.....

The reason I advocate taking your paper money out of the bank is because by doing that, you prevent the banks from making loans (based on their held dollars) they can't afford to make, and loans that drive up inflation.

[Buck Laser]

Do you know what an economic depression is?
Do you know what the value of the dollar is?
Do you know what a bank run is?

If you can answer those yes, and you still don't get it, I will stop trying to explain it to you.
Several things, Os: First, I know far better than you ever will what an economic depression is. I was a depression baby, and my father lost two businesses before I was five years old. One of them had been successful for about 15 years before his customers' inability to pay their bills. Following the failure of the second, we were homeless for at least a month. So the fact is that your condescending shit about "knowing about a depression" is both rude and ridiculous.

Second, I don't keep up with the daily value of the dollar against other currencies, but I know it's been dropping. Relative values of world currencies change all the time. Keeping money in a mattress is the worst option I can think of for protecting one's savings. Loss of value leads to inflation, so if you want to sock your dollars away and watch them dwindle to near worthless, be my guest.

Third, I've never seen a run on a bank. As I recall, most of them happened prior to 1935, the year I was born. Although I know the Federal Reserve pisses you off, I think it and the FDIC are pretty workable protections against the kinds of bank runs that characteriaed the great depression.

Finally, I do know a bit about economics, having taken it in college (though I hated the course), and managed several non profit organizations and a retail business over the course of my life. And for what it's worth, I worked in retail sales through high school.

Now, you may think your "economic expertise" trumps mine, that you're the only one who has it right, but I'm getting damned sick and tired of being told to make my house a fortress to keep the barbarians out. Perhaps you ought to learn to respect and appreciate the opinions of others just a bit more.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Buck said:
Several things, Os: First, I know far better than you ever will what an economic depression is. I was a depression baby, and my father lost two businesses before I was five years old. One of them had been successful for about 15 years before his customers' inability to pay their bills. Following the failure of the second, we were homeless for at least a month. So the fact is that your condescending shit about "knowing about a depression" is both rude and ridiculous.

Hey Buck, piss up a rope. I have as much freedom to espouse my opinion as you do. My father and his sisters lived through it, so spare me the fatherly lecture.

Buck said:
Second, I don't keep up with the daily value of the dollar against other currencies, but I know it's been dropping. Relative values of world currencies change all the time. Keeping money in a mattress is the worst option I can think of for protecting one's savings.

So, you have established you have an opinion. Mine differs. I offered advice, you have the right not to take it, but don't ridicule me for saying what I think and not expect it back.

Buck said:
Loss of value leads to inflation, so if you want to sock your dollars away and watch them dwindle to near worthless, be my guest.

I will, thanks. I support banks when banks act responsibly, as does the system which insures them....however, neither banks nor the government that insures them is acting responsibly, so I am removing my money and their lending power until things change.

Buck said:
[b[Third,[/b] I've never seen a run on a bank.

Have you ever read a book or more on the issue? Ever self-educate yourself on the activity and when it usually occurs?

Are you saying if you don't see it, it doesn't happen?

Buck said:
As I recall, most of them happened prior to 1935, the year I was born. Although I know the Federal Reserve pisses you off, I think it and the FDIC are pretty workable protections against the kinds of bank runs that characteriaed the great depression.

Where is the FDIC equal for the bailouts on airports, on bear stearns? There is none, because this system has been corrupted from the inside out. Your opinion matters nothing to them, as long as you work and put your money in their warehouses so they can re-dole that money to someone else at a profit.

Buck said:
Finally, I do know a bit about economics, having taken it in college (though I hated the course), and managed several non profit organizations and a retail business over the course of my life. And for what it's worth, I worked in retail sales through high school.

Now, you may think your "economic expertise" trumps mine, that you're the only one who has it right, but I'm getting damned sick and tired of being told to make my house a fortress to keep the barbarians out.

So either:
A: Don't listen.
B: Listen and don't respond.
C: Listen and respond according to what YOU think as opposed to the advice offered.

Other options exist, but it would just be pointing out the obvious fact that its your choice to read it or respond or not Buck. If you don't like it, don't respond.

Buck said:
Perhaps you ought to learn to respect and appreciate the opinions of others just a bit more.

I don't remember attacking your opinion as you just did mine, but I did attack in response to your allegations. Take it as you will. ;)

I am sorry free speech offends you so much Buck.

[Buck Laser]

Os, you were the one who asked the questions of me, not the other way around. If you don't want my opinion, why did you ask for them.

And good luck with the money in the mattress!:madlaugh:

[potter]

Actually I've got a good chunk in the mattress too. The bank was charging me more than twice as much in fees to bank my money as I was making in interest so anything less than 10K was a losing proposition in the bank.

My 401 K has lost a good 10 grand in the last couple of years. My only saving grace is a large CD which earns a paltry 4.5%

[Osborn F. Enready]

Buck said:
Os, you were the one who asked the questions of me, not the other way around. If you don't want my opinion, why did you ask for them.

Whatever Buck, I enjoy debating, I just don't enjoy the fatherly scolding your posts often seem to embody.


Buck said:
And good luck with the money in the mattress!

Thanks, it keeps the gold, silver and copper good company. :lmao:

[Buck Laser]

Whatever Buck, I enjoy debating, I just don't enjoy the fatherly scolding your posts often seem to embody.

Thanks, it keeps the gold, silver and copper good company. :lmao:
Hey Os, I like debating too. But when you ask me condescendingly if I know anything about a depression, I'm by God gonna tell you what I know. It wasn't fatherly scolding, it was scolding for the half-assed assumption that I wouldn't know anything about ia depression. You respect my opinions, I'll respect yours. When I don't want to pursue it further because it's an impasse, I'll tell you.

I'm just not a hoarding kind of guy. I've had to move too many times in my life.

To Potter: my 401K lost half its value in 2000/2001 because I had it in mostly tech companies. Fortunately, my financial advisor got it into investments that have built it up over the last three years. Of course, it's not a 401K any more. You have to give those up when you reach a certain age.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Buck said:
Hey Os, I like debating too. But when you ask me condescendingly if I know anything about a depression, I'm by God gonna tell you what I know. It wasn't fatherly scolding, it was scolding for the half-assed assumption that I wouldn't know anything about ia depression. You respect my opinions, I'll respect yours. When I don't want to pursue it further because it's an impasse, I'll tell you.

I'm just not a hoarding kind of guy. I've had to move too many times in my life.

In all truth Buck, I am not pro-hoarding myself. I am only doing it because of the utter lack of accountability in my government and the banking institutions. Its self protection, and an attempt to reign in fraudulent and speculative loans by banking institutions.

I have much faith in a well run, individual rights protecting system of banking and tangible money. I don't have any faith in this system anymore though, it has shown it is not working toward MY best intrests.

Thats just my take, and what one lower income class person is trying to do about it.

[Pookie]

More Leftist fear mongering.

Not true, Apdst. Three houses here on my block have gone into foreclosure. Plus, two renters were kicked out of their homes by these foreclosures.
To turn a blind eye to this issue and blame it on fear-mongering is going way too far.
In fact, the apartment my daughter was in fell to foreclosure. Her landlord could not afford the mortgage when his other tenants fell victim to the economy and had to leave, unable to afford the rent with such high gas prices and the rising prices of groceries.
We had to move Jen, while she is still trying to recover from the wreck, to another apartment that would accept her dog.
Don't you even THINK of saying this is fear-mongering by ANYONE.

You tell me this, Apdst: We all chipped in, paid her rent, her grandmother and father and her friends went in every day to take care of the dog, then got a notice from the landlord that he was being foreclosed. We had to pay to move her to another place that was safe from foreclosure.

You tell me how and why this is fear-mongering from the left. Please. I want to know why, since I helped with all of this to the tune of $1100.

I am waiting,
Hisses,
Pookie

[brien]

. But none of that keeps Countrywide from having preyed on uninformed people.

Yes like Senator Dodd of CT who is under investigation for accepting low loan rates not offered to others. He denies he knew he was being offered a "special rate", so I guess he was "uniformed" also, according to he and his wife.. A page right out of the Clinton playbook; deny, deny, deny. Hmmmm, now I wonder what Committe Dodd heads up?

Why he is Chairman of the Senate Banking Committee


http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/jun/13/dodd-tied-preferential-mortgage-loans/

I wonder why Countrywide would want Dodd in their pocket? I yi yi....

[4Reaganomics]

Now why would their be a conflict of interest between someone getting 75K do to rate breaks from a mortgage company who heads up the Banking committee?

hmmm.... That is a tough one

[brien]

There should be no bail out for any banks who find themselves caught up in this financial mess. If it can be proven consumers were defrauded, then they should be offered new loans, and the government should fine the bank involved, and use that money to bail out the consumer they defrauded to make them whole again.

Furthermore, the government should not allow any of these banks to include these obligations in bankruptcy. The government did this in the 70's when gov't guaranteed student loans were included in individual bankruptcy. The gov't simply passed a law that excluded the student loans in the bankruptcy so they were guaranteed payment.

When crimes are perpetuated upon citizens, the guilty parties need to be punished. However, if the consumer wasn't defrauded, they are responsible for their financial obligations because they committed to them. Seems simple to me.

[bishop]

over in my neck of the woods, i haven't seen any "for sale" signs.. owning real estate is a big source of income for people by me (i.e. the city).

[NIOSA]

Austin is probably doing a bit better than most cities. But I've noticed since about nine months ago that houses--some houses stay on the market longer than they did a year ago. Surprisingly, a house on my street attracted four offers in its first week on the market.

What I find dismaying in this whole thing is that my email and my mailbox are absolutely FULL of offers for equity loans, refinancing, or some other dipshit financial action. As I've said before, I think most of the burden for this meltdown falls heaviest on the banking industry, but followed closely by the gummint. The bankers figured that being deregulated gave them license to do whatever the hell they want to, while the administration has been distancing itself from effective legislation to keep the bankers from screwing the public since the early days of the Reagan administration.

I don't exempt the borrowers from their share of the blame, but they are really the least significant element in the crisis. The banks could have decided any time they wanted to to to tighten their credit standards. Instead they went for the easy money--and now they want the gummint to pull their fat out of the fire.

San Antonio is ok too. I think most of Tx is ok, comparatively anyway.
I am 100% against bank bailouts, any bailout of a privately owned company, If they can't hang, then they lose.
I don't want the borrowers bailed out either.