$20 million 'virtual' border fence scrapped

[lily]

They were told it wouldn't work, and the didn't even bother to ask the border guards, you know the ones that are actually doing the work........oh well, whats $20 million? Got to get those cotracts in before a new administration takes over. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24268411/)


$20 million 'virtual' border fence scrapped
Electronic system in southern Arizona fails to properly alert guards


updated 5:42 a.m. ET, Wed., April. 23, 2008
TUCSON, Ariz. - A $20 million prototype of the government's highly touted
"virtual fence" on the Arizona-Mexico border is being scrapped because the
system is failing to adequately alert Border Patrol agents to illegal
crossings, officials said.

The move comes just two months after Homeland Security Secretary Michael
Chertoff announced his approval of the fence built by The Boeing Co. The
fence consists of nine electronic surveillance towers along a 28-mile
section of border southwest of Tucson.

Boeing is to replace the so-called Project 28 prototype with a series of
towers equipped with communications systems, new cameras and new radar
capability, officials said.



Less than a week after Chertoff accepted Project 28 on Feb. 22, the
Government Accountability Office told Congress it "did not fully meet user
needs and the project's design will not be used as the basis for future"
developments.

Shortcomings
A glaring shortcoming of the project was the time lag between the electronic
detection of movement along the border and the transmission of a camera
image to agents patrolling the area, the GAO reported.

Although the fence continues to operate, it hasn't come close to meeting the
Border Patrol's goals, said Kelly Good, deputy director of the Secure Border
Initiative program office in Washington.

"Probably not to the level that Border Patrol agents on the ground thought
that they were going to get. So it didn't meet their expectations."

The Border Patrol had little input in designing the prototype but will have
more say in the final version, officials said.

[micfranklin]

Some plan.

[Osborn F. Enready]

More wholesale theft of American taxpayers by the bi-partisan monopoly.

[David]

Why are these idiots still in power?

[Truth_and_Power]

Sounds very difficult.. transmit a picture/video in a timely manner. Maybe someday someone will invent a device that can transmit visual data quickly..

[micfranklin]

Don't they have mounted turrets available?

[Buck Laser]

No matter which way you slice it, the border fence is a stupid idea.

[Truth_and_Power]

No matter which way you slice it, the border fence is a stupid idea.

If a virtual fence can be done cost-effectively, it is not a stupid idea. However, done in the absence of enforcement upon the employers and violators, it is a complete waste.

[Buck Laser]

If a virtual fence can be done cost-effectively, it is not a stupid idea. However, done in the absence of enforcement upon the employers and violators, it is a complete waste.
And a complete waste it is. As one born and raised on the border, I know it's always been porous. Unless you want to cut off ALL relations with Mexico, it's foolish to try to control immigration by walling ourselves in, whether with a "virtual" or a concrete wall.

I say make menial jobs attractive enough to encourage US citizens to do them, and our immigration problem will be solved. Instead, we pay Mexicans to build the fences that are supposed to keep them out. I call that stupid.

[Truth_and_Power]

I say provide a reasonable background check system and penalize employers who hire illegals. That will kill 90% of it and hopefully technology and the border patrol can solve the rest without actual physical mexican-built fences.

[Osborn F. Enready]

I am 100% PRO border fence and border patrol to control illegal immigration. We pay a lot of money for national protection, and that is a necessary cost, without a fence all we are doing is shooting ourselves in the foot.

We have several border crossings, and there is no reason a person can't cross through an approved border crossing and basic border security that outweighs national security at this basic and necessary level.

Even with a border fence, our border policy is one of the most lax in the world.

[Truth_and_Power]

I am 100% PRO border fence and border patrol to control illegal immigration. We pay a lot of money for national protection, and that is a necessary cost, without a fence all we are doing is shooting ourselves in the foot.

We have several border crossings, and there is no reason a person can't cross through an approved border crossing and basic border security that outweighs national security at this basic and necessary level.

Even with a border fence, our border policy is one of the most lax in the world.

With the technology we have, there is no reason we can't solve the border issue with cameras and computers. Stop giving money to behemoth defense contractors and pay someone smart like a .com genius to solve the problem.

[Truth_and_Power]

Wait, here's an idea. Bring the 150,000 troops home from iraq and we can have someone every 2000 feet 24 hours a day.

[lily]

I say make menial jobs attractive enough to encourage US citizens to do them, and our immigration problem will be solved. Instead, we pay Mexicans to build the fences that are supposed to keep them out. I call that stupid.


Well Buck......from what I have been reading, there were a lot of those bad mortgages given to Mexican-Americans citizens, they are not only losing those homes, but not sending money home to their families.....and I may be wrong...I've been wrong before, but I have a feeling come summertime, there is not going to be too many jobs Americans won't do.

[lily]

I am 100% PRO border fence and border patrol to control illegal immigration. We pay a lot of money for national protection, and that is a necessary cost, without a fence all we are doing is shooting ourselves in the foot.




Yes Osbourn......we do pay a lot of money and we waste a lot too....like this $20 million. I just have this feeling that this had to be completed with this administration still in power.......or they weren't going to get that money.

We have several border crossings, and there is no reason a person can't cross through an approved border crossing and basic border security that outweighs national security at this basic and necessary level.

Even with a border fence, our border policy is one of the most lax in the world.

Just curious......do you feel the same way about the Canadian border?

[BoogyMan]

I am 100% PRO border fence and border patrol to control illegal immigration. We pay a lot of money for national protection, and that is a necessary cost, without a fence all we are doing is shooting ourselves in the foot.

We have several border crossings, and there is no reason a person can't cross through an approved border crossing and basic border security that outweighs national security at this basic and necessary level.

Even with a border fence, our border policy is one of the most lax in the world.

Well put Osborne, we have people claiming that since the border has always been open in the past that it should remain that way regardless of the changing circumstances under which that border is being abused. It is high time that a real and effective border barrier is built. Would it be a good idea to supplement it with technology, certainly, but whatever we use it has to be effective and it has to be supported.

I won't hold my breath.

[Buck Laser]

With the technology we have, there is no reason we can't solve the border issue with cameras and computers. Stop giving money to behemoth defense contractors and pay someone smart like a .com genius to solve the problem.
That sounds a little like one of those "if we can send a man to the moon" arguments. As I see it, the border fence is just a foolish venture to keep some contractors contributing the the republicans.

[lily]

With the technology we have, there is no reason we can't solve the border issue with cameras and computers. Stop giving money to behemoth defense contractors and pay someone smart like a .com genius to solve the problem.


Well T&P that would make too much sense.....besides if you can't see it and it's not blocking your view, access to other parts of your property or otherwise being an eyesore.......then what good is it??

[Osborn F. Enready]

T&P said:
With the technology we have, there is no reason we can't solve the border issue with cameras and computers. Stop giving money to behemoth defense contractors and pay someone smart like a .com genius to solve the problem.

I never said anything about who should get the money.......

In my opinion, each states local fence companies should get the job, that way they can all do their part, make their profit, and it will be done quickly and efficiently.

The fact is, the reason we have a NATIONAL GUARD is to ensure STATE security.... a job they can't do now, since a lot of them are in Iraq.

Lilly said:
Yes Osbourn......we do pay a lot of money and we waste a lot too....like this $20 million. I just have this feeling that this had to be completed with this administration still in power.......or they weren't going to get that money.

I have no doubt Bush and his administration has overseen a large amount of taxpayer fraud, and perpetrated a lot of it..... no argument there......

It still needs to be done though.

Lilly said:
Just curious......do you feel the same way about the Canadian border?

I feel that way about every inch of our national border, it should be common sense.

A nation can't provide security from foreign aggression if there is a huge door to come through unmonitored.

Boogy said:
Well put Osborne, we have people claiming that since the border has always been open in the past that it should remain that way regardless of the changing circumstances under which that border is being abused. It is high time that a real and effective border barrier is built. Would it be a good idea to supplement it with technology, certainly, but whatever we use it has to be effective and it has to be supported.

I won't hold my breath.

I hear ya, and I agree.

Buck said:
That sounds a little like one of those "if we can send a man to the moon" arguments. As I see it, the border fence is just a foolish venture to keep some contractors contributing the the republicans.

Why Buck, what do you have against national security?

[Buck Laser]

Why Buck, what do you have against national security?
I'm all for national security, but that isn't why the gummint is trying to build the fence. They've decided they'd rather go after the immigrants than go after the republicans who hire them. It's just an expensive matter of suckng up to your imagined constituents.

As I've said on numerous occasions, the best way to stem the immigrant flow would be to require wages for agricultural and labor jobs to be high enough to attract citizens to them. The Mexican immigrants come here for work, not terrorism. And just for what it's worth, "driving while Mexican American" has become the bane of citizens in lots of places. How would you like to have to prove your citizenship when you're a fifth-generation US citizen?

[Truth_and_Power]

That sounds a little like one of those "if we can send a man to the moon" arguments. As I see it, the border fence is just a foolish venture to keep some contractors contributing the the republicans.

Seems like supply and demand to me. If the supply of labor is limited and demand remains constant, the price rises.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Buck said:
I'm all for national security, but that isn't why the gummint is trying to build the fence.

What are you talking about?!?

THE PEOPLE are demanding the fence be built, and the government is dragging their feet regarding the whole issue, except of course, the tax collection part.

Buck said:
They've decided they'd rather go after the immigrants than go after the republicans who hire them.

Buck, that is plain and simple bullshit.

YOU assume it is only republicans who hire them, and you can't prove a damn shred of it.
Your partisanship is coloring your posts again.

The world isn't red and blue, nor is this country, unless you believe the corporate media.

Buck said:
It's just an expensive matter of suckng up to your imagined constituents.

The Democrats don't want to build the fence, because they are counting on those immigrants as voters....(not all democrats, but a whoooooole lot of em....)
The Republicans don't want to build the fence, because they are counting on those immigrants as cheap labor who live in fear of the law enough to avoid unions, work dispute or legal dispute..... (not all republicans, but a whooooooole lot of em...)

Both parties are ABUSING ALL OF THEIR CONSTITUENTS, by not ENSURING the border is secure and that illegal immigration is STOPPED to the best ability possible, which would also help protect the LABOR RIGHTS of all Americans.

Buck said:
As I've said on numerous occasions, the best way to stem the immigrant flow would be to require wages for agricultural and labor jobs to be high enough to attract citizens to them.

The government doesn't have the power to dictate this, and the farmers won't do it until there is no cheap labor to access.

Buck said:
The Mexican immigrants come here for work, not terrorism.

Could you paint with any broader a brush Buck? You can't speak for all illegal immigrants, and obviously I can't either......that isn't the point.

We welcome foreigners to this country, as long as they come through the gate.
We encourage foreign workers, and have many programs for them, if they come in legally.

This is about how they ENTER the country, and how it affects said immigrants regarding their opinion of the laws, the police and our society overall.

Buck said:
And just for what it's worth, "driving while Mexican American" has become the bane of citizens in lots of places.

Yea, yea..... wonder why..... because those areas are overrun with illegal immigrants maybe?

Buck said:
How would you like to have to prove your citizenship when you're a fifth-generation US citizen?

The same way I feel everytime my 36 year old, gray haired, bearded ass has to pull out an I.D. to PROVE I AM OF AGE TO BUY A PACK OF CIGARETTES OR A BEER..... insulted...

[Buck Laser]

Os, I stand by everything I said in my original post. I don't have the time or energy right now to bother with refuting all the things you say, but I think that for the most part you're just repeating the same old tired litany about people who used to be called "meskins" or "wetbacks" where I grew up. Never mind that the vast majority of Hispanics in this country are citizens: you seem to be OK with harassing them because they "look guilty."

[Osborn F. Enready]

Buck said:
Os, I stand by everything I said in my original post. I don't have the time or energy right now to bother with refuting all the things you say, but I think that for the most part you're just repeating the same old tired litany about people who used to be called "meskins" or "wetbacks" where I grew up. Never mind that the vast majority of Hispanics in this country are citizens: you seem to be OK with harassing them because they "look guilty."

So what are you trying to say here Buck? Are you saying I am a racist because I want the entire US border protected? Are you saying I am a racist because I think we should be doing all we can to prevent ILLEGAL immigration?

Well, you couldn't be more wrong, never mind the logical flaws with attempting to have border security without actually SECURING the border.....

[Truth_and_Power]

Os, I stand by everything I said in my original post. I don't have the time or energy right now to bother with refuting all the things you say, but I think that for the most part you're just repeating the same old tired litany about people who used to be called "meskins" or "wetbacks" where I grew up. Never mind that the vast majority of Hispanics in this country are citizens: you seem to be OK with harassing them because they "look guilty."

Maybe if we had an effective fence and enforcement against employers who hire illegals, this problem could get under control and you wouldn't have a situation where everyday cops feel like they have to question people driving around. You say you don't want any of the methods noted above, though.

[Buck Laser]

Maybe if we had an effective fence and enforcement against employers who hire illegals, this problem could get under control and you wouldn't have a situation where everyday cops feel like they have to question people driving around. You say you don't want any of the methods noted above, though.
I certainly think serious enforcement against employers who consistently hire undocumented aliens is more critical than building the fence. Even better would be to bring the jobs aliens are working at under minimum wage law, and raise the minimum wage to a level that would actually attract citizens. If that were done the undocumented worker problem would go away on its own. Why does nobody want to consider that?

[Elrathin]

THE PEOPLE are demanding the fence be built, and the government is dragging their feet regarding the whole issue, except of course, the tax collection part.

The people are demanding government enforce illegal immigration laws on the books, I have yet to see a MAJORITY of people supporting the fence.

[Truth_and_Power]

I certainly think serious enforcement against employers who consistently hire undocumented aliens is more critical than building the fence. Even better would be to bring the jobs aliens are working at under minimum wage law, and raise the minimum wage to a level that would actually attract citizens. If that were done the undocumented worker problem would go away on its own. Why does nobody want to consider that?

Sorry, but raising the price paid for labor will not stem the flow of illegal immigration. Anyone who has taken basic economics knows that. However, steming the flow of illegal immigration will raise the price paid for labor.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Raising minimum wage is one reason we are seeing inflation currently Buck.


Just what we need, more inflation, more job cuts because people can't afford to pay their workers, and more illegal immigrants......

[Osborn F. Enready]

Elrathin said:
The people are demanding government enforce illegal immigration laws on the books, I have yet to see a MAJORITY of people supporting the fence.

I know every poll I have seen on the fence topic, shows majority support by the pro-fence side, but, I agree with your point and don't put a lot of faith in polls.

[lily]

I seriously don't know how people can think a fence is going to solve our problems. You know.....I once owned a dog. No matter what I did, that dog would jump the fence or dig.......I would put wire on the top of the fence and he would just jump higher. I'd pour cement under the fence and he would just dig deeper........a fence isn't going to do any good......unless you have the manpower to guard it......and we're too cheap to do that......we'd rather blow $20 million on something that doesn't work, instead of creating jobs.

[Alonzo]

When I was about 4 my Golden Retriever ran under the fence and escaped into the next yard, then start running all over the place into other yards. It took us hours to find him, and this was in a city with lots of traffic, though we were about a mile away from an extremely busy rotary that led to interstate 93.

I had been outside playing with him and he went over to the fence and started digging. No matter what I did he kept digging, and when he finally got under the fence I ran inside to tell my mother that he escaped. My mother kept insisting, over and over, that there was no way a golden retriever, a fat one at that, could possibly get under that small hole in the fence. About 10 minutes later she finally said "Fine, show me", certain I was making it up. Well I wasn't, and she got outside just to see the dog run into the backyard of a house across the street and about 3 or 4 yards down. She ran down there and couldn't find him, so she went home and called everyone she knew asking them if they saw the dog. She then began driving around for a while and, after 30 or 60 minutes of driving she found him, but when she pulled over he ran again. After another hour or so she went home and tried calling again. Then she went back out for a while, and when she came home that time someone had found him.

The point of this? Things such as fences make you complacent and you often tend to ignore what is causing the problem because the fence supposedly took care of it.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Lilly said:
I seriously don't know how people can think a fence is going to solve our problems. You know.....I once owned a dog. No matter what I did, that dog would jump the fence or dig.......I would put wire on the top of the fence and he would just jump higher. I'd pour cement under the fence and he would just dig deeper........a fence isn't going to do any good......unless you have the manpower to guard it......and we're too cheap to do that......we'd rather blow $20 million on something that doesn't work, instead of creating jobs.

You seem to be making this an "either - or" proposal, when all along it has been a proposal to build a fence IN ADDITION to our border patrol agents.

The fence is intended to cause a "longer period of exposure" to those intending to come in this nation illegally. That longer period of exposure gives our border patrol agents a better change at catching them in the act.

Alonzo said:
The point of this? Things such as fences make you complacent and you often tend to ignore what is causing the problem because the fence supposedly took care of it.

Another strawman.....

Nobody said put up a fence and disband the border patrol.

[Buck Laser]

Raising minimum wage is one reason we are seeing inflation currently Buck.


Just what we need, more inflation, more job cuts because people can't afford to pay their workers, and more illegal immigrants......

Psst, Os--we have inflation because of the price of energy and the inflationary effect of the bad investment in biofuels. If you can find even ONE credible source that blames the tiny rise in the minimum wage for any inflation, I'll consider discussing this with you.

And, T&P: I took basic economics many years ago in college. Raising the minimum wage WILL raise the cost of labor--but it will also draw citizens to the jobs now taken by aliens. I think the longterm cost of a decent minimum wage will be lower than the cost of the stupid border fence.

Please do not confuse my opposition to this border fence as opposition to border security. We need sensible security, not this fucking boondoggle of a fence that will be contracted by some multinational corporation and built with Mexican labor. Does anyone here seriously think that won't happen? If you do, I have some guaranteed winning lottery tickets for you! :lmao:

[BoogyMan]

I seriously don't know how people can think a fence is going to solve our problems. You know.....I once owned a dog. No matter what I did, that dog would jump the fence or dig.......I would put wire on the top of the fence and he would just jump higher. I'd pour cement under the fence and he would just dig deeper........a fence isn't going to do any good......unless you have the manpower to guard it......and we're too cheap to do that......we'd rather blow $20 million on something that doesn't work, instead of creating jobs.

The border patrol, the people who actually have some credibility when it comes to border defense, seem to think border barriers actually do work.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0401/p01s05-usgn.html

[Elrathin]

Boogy from what I am getting the border works in SOME areas, but like I have said it isn't needed EVERYWHERE. That is the point.

[Osborn F. Enready]

It may not be needed everywhere on our border TODAY Elrathin, but once all the areas regularly used are fenced and patrolled regularly, we will need fence in those other areas since they will become the new weak spots in the border.

[Truth_and_Power]

Buck,

Raising the minimum wage will make minimum wage jobs more attractive -- to everyone. It is not going to magically repell illegal workers. The U.S. is essentially at "full employment" now (4% unemployment), so raising the minimum wage is not going to cause americans to fill the jobs that illegals have now. Anyone remember the figure for illegals currently employed in the us? It is many millions if I remember correct.

Nearly half of post-2000 arrivals (3.7 million) are estimated to be illegal aliens (http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back1405.html)
The above is based on 2005 data, so if we just prorate that out to 2008 we are looking at 6 million new illegals this decade, and that's not counting ones from before. That is 2% of our nation's population.

We do not have many millions of americans to take these jobs. If we make the jobs that illegals have more attractive by raising the wage, what that will do is make it more attractive for illegals to jump the border to come work here. That will increase our problem. See what I am saying? There is no way that your min. wage increase can have the effect you want it to have, the numbers just don't add up.

However, if you reduce the supply of labor by stopping illegals from being employed here -- through border enforcement and employer enforcement -- the price of labor will necessarily rise, without artificial price floors.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Superbly stated and accurate as can be T&P!!!!

Kudos!

[Truth_and_Power]

Superbly stated and accurate as can be T&P!!!!

Kudos!

I have a family member that works for just over $10/hour. She is very motivated and smart, but she does not have specific skills. If we raise the minimum wage her job will be unaffected, however if we raise the overall price for labor by restricting illegal supply, she will get a raise.