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lily
04-21-2008, 02:54 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24229068/

Military’s gun of choice under fire
Lawmakers — and some soldiers — question Colt’s lucrative M4 contract


updated 5:18 p.m. ET, Sun., April. 20, 2008
HARTFORD, Conn. - No weapon is more important to tens of thousands of U.S.
troops in Iraq and Afghanistan than the carbine rifle. And for well over a
decade, the military has relied on one company, Colt Defense of Hartford,
Conn., to make the M4s they trust with their lives.

Now, as Congress considers spending millions more on the guns, this
exclusive arrangement is being criticized as a bad deal for American forces
as well as taxpayers, according to interviews and research conducted by The
Associated Press.

"What we have is a fat contractor in Colt who's gotten very rich off our
wars in Iraq and Afghanistan," says Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla.


The M4, which can fire at a rate of 700 to 950 bullets a minute, is a
shorter and lighter version of the company's M16 rifle first used 40 years
ago during the Vietnam War. It normally carries a 30-round magazine. At
about $1,500 apiece, the M4 is overpriced, according to Coburn. It jams too
often in sandy environments like Iraq, he adds, and requires far more
maintenance than more durable carbines.

"And if you tend to have the problem at the wrong time, you're putting your
life on the line," says Coburn, who began examining the M4's performance
last year after receiving complaints from soldiers. "The fact is, the
American GI today doesn't have the best weapon. And they ought to."

Military sticks to its guns
U.S. military officials don't agree. They call the M4 an excellent carbine.
When the time comes to replace the M4, they want a combat rifle that is
leaps and bounds beyond what's currently available.

"There's not a weapon out there that's significantly better than the M4,"
says Col. Robert Radcliffe, director of combat developments at the Army
Infantry Center in Fort Benning, Ga. "To replace it with something that has
essentially the same capabilities as we have today doesn't make good sense."

Colt's exclusive production agreement ends in June 2009. At that point, the
Army, in its role as the military's principal buyer of firearms, may have
other gunmakers compete along with Colt for continued M4 production. Or, it
might begin looking for a totally new weapon.

"We haven't made up our mind yet," Radcliffe says.

William Keys, Colt's chief executive officer, says the M4 gets impressive
reviews from the battlefield. And he worries that bashing the carbine will
undermine the confidence the troops have in it.

"The guy killing the enemy with this gun loves it," says Keys, a former
Marine Corps general who was awarded the Navy Cross for battlefield valor in
Vietnam. "I'm not going to stand here and disparage the senator, but I think
he's wrong."

Colt has competition
In 2006, a non-profit research group surveyed 2,600 soldiers who had served
in Iraq and Afghanistan and found 89 percent were satisfied with the M4.
While Colt and the Army have trumpeted that finding, detractors say the
survey also revealed that 19 percent of these soldiers had their weapon jam
during a firefight.


And the relationship between the Army and Colt has been frosty at times.
Concerned over the steadily rising cost of the M4, the Army forced Colt to
lower its prices two years ago by threatening to buy rifles from another
supplier. Prior to the warning, Colt "had not demonstrated any incentive to
consider a price reduction," then-Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Sorenson, an Army
acquisition official, wrote in a November 2006 report.

Coburn is the M4's harshest and most vocal critic. But his concern is shared
by others, who point to the "SCAR," made by Belgian armorer FN Herstal, and
the HK416, produced by Germany's Heckler & Koch, as possible contenders.
Both weapons cost about the same as the M4, their manufacturers say.

The SCAR is being purchased by U.S. special operations forces, who have
their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military
branches can't.

Or won't.

"All I know is, we're not having the competition, and the technology that is
out there is not in the hands of our troops," says Jack Keane, a former Army
general who pushed unsuccessfully for an M4 replacement before retiring four
years ago.

Development of the carbine was driven by a need for a weapon that could be
used in tight spaces but still had plenty of punch. Colt's answer was the 7
1/2-pound M4.

apdst
04-21-2008, 03:07 AM
I've always believed that our miltiary should be armed with either the H&K Model 91, or The FN-FAL (Fabrique Nationale-Fast Auto Loader). Both are chambered in 7.62x51 NATO, a round big enough to take someone's head off at 800 meters. I never bought into the, "wound one take two more out of the fight", school of thought that The US military dreamed up back in the sixties.

Both weapons have had extensive service in places such as Africa and South America. One, or the other has been the weapon of choice of just about every third world country since the early 60's. Soldier in third world armies don't clean their weapons and these two weapons have far surpassed that test.

I don't think that the M4 is all gllom and doom as some would have for us to believe, but the FN-FAL and HK91 are far better weapons. I would even dig bringing back a sized down version of the M14. Except for the caliber, I was somewhat inpressed with the FN made M16A2's that were in service when I was in the army.

Buck Laser
04-21-2008, 03:15 AM
I think the motivation behind use of the small caliber military rifle in use by US troops for the last 40 years or so has as much to do with the ability to carry much more ammunition as it does with the doctrine of going for casualties over death.

By the way, a full-jacketed bullet is unlikely to "take someone's head off at 800 meters." Or is that poetic license?

apdst
04-21-2008, 03:21 AM
I think the motivation behind use of the small caliber military rifle in use by US troops for the last 40 years or so has as much to do with the ability to carry much more ammunition as it does with the doctrine of going for casualties over death.

Yes, you are correct, weight was as much a factor.

By the way, a full-jacketed bullet is unlikely to "take someone's head off at 800 meters." Or is that poetic license?

A 150 gr. military ball round has slowed down enough at 800 meters that the blunt force will do more damage than it will at 100 meters, although a 7.62 NATO round will fuck some shit up at 100 meters.

Another advantage of the bigger round is the ability to shoot through walls and the like to kill the enemy.

jafar00
04-21-2008, 08:13 AM
Soldier in third world armies don't clean their weapons and these two weapons have far surpassed that test.


Actually the FN-FAL otherwise known as the L1A1 SLR needs regular cleaning and oiling or it rusts and jams very quickly. It's got a lot of firepower though. The 7.62mm round has far more punch than the piddly little 5.56mm round.

micfranklin
04-21-2008, 02:10 PM
Forgive my lack of knowledge but don't they have guns that twist so soldiers can shoot some from behind a corner without exposing themselves?

jafar00
04-21-2008, 03:08 PM
Forgive my lack of knowledge but don't they have guns that twist so soldiers can shoot some from behind a corner without exposing themselves?

http://www.gizmag.com/go/2576/ :dork:

Osborn F. Enready
04-21-2008, 03:23 PM
Look APDST and I agree on something! ;)

Yes, I too believe and always have that the 7.62X51 is by far superior to the .223 Remington in all areas except weight of ammunition.

I would rather carry the weight.

Also, there are SEVERAL wonderful combat rifles that chamber the 7.62X51 already, and they could all benefit from simple muzzle compensators to achieve comparable barrel rise to the .223, which would offset the loss of ammo carried due to weight, as well as increased penetration would add significantly.

apdst
04-21-2008, 03:28 PM
Actually the FN-FAL otherwise known as the L1A1 SLR needs regular cleaning and oiling or it rusts and jams very quickly.

Well, all weapons are prone to rust, I agree. My point is, that the FN isn't as likely to malfunction because of carbon, mud, dirt and sand. I saw a demo once, where a guy filled the chamber and magazine of a FN-FAL with toothpaste, loaded it and fired it without a malfuntion. Ya gotta admit, that's purdy damn good.

Questerr
04-21-2008, 04:15 PM
I've always believed that our miltiary should be armed with either the H&K Model 91, or The FN-FAL (Fabrique Nationale-Fast Auto Loader). Both are chambered in 7.62x51 NATO, a round big enough to take someone's head off at 800 meters.

Speaking from a Soldier's perspective, I wouldn't want a round that big and clunky. Being able to hit and kill at 800 meters is great if you are a sniper, but your average soldier doesn't need that. Most soldiers engage inside of 300 meters and the 5.56 is perfect for that.

I like the 6.8 Grendal round myself and I think that we need to adopt it with the XM-8 carbine, at least for front-line infantry and other combat MOS's. The rear area guys like me should have something like the FN P90 or UMP.

apdst
04-21-2008, 09:32 PM
I can understand not humping the extra weight. But, I know I would appreciate the extra weight when I was able to terminate a hostile target in almost any condition. I would also enjoy the added range to kill. I would much rather engage an overwhelming enemy force at 800 meters than having to weight till they reached 300 meters.

During Desert Storm, we sat 500 meters outside the enemy's maximum range which was still 500 meter inside our maximum effective range and laid waste to their armor. Being able to outrange the enemy's weapons systems give one a very nice edge on the battlefield.

Questerr
04-21-2008, 11:18 PM
I can understand not humping the extra weight. But, I know I would appreciate the extra weight when I was able to terminate a hostile target in almost any condition. I would also enjoy the added range to kill. I would much rather engage an overwhelming enemy force at 800 meters than having to weight till they reached 300 meters.

During Desert Storm, we sat 500 meters outside the enemy's maximum range which was still 500 meter inside our maximum effective range and laid waste to their armor. Being able to outrange the enemy's weapons systems give one a very nice edge on the battlefield.

But those are tanks you are talking about. That is different. Tanks are expected to fight on open terrain, with the support of arty, apc's, and gunships. Infantry fight in cities or assault objectives or hold terrain with the assistence of heavier equipment. They often don't have 300 meters to fight in, let alone 800. Why would you want an over-penetrating 7.62 bullet for a fight with the house across the street when a 5.56 or a 6.8 is designed for that fight?

lily
04-21-2008, 11:30 PM
I suppose this could have been sent in a PM., and I actually started one, but felt I needed to say it here......it's good to be reading you Questar and I also want to thank you for your service.

apdst
04-22-2008, 01:07 AM
But those are tanks you are talking about.

Actually, I'm talking about infantry fighting vehicles. Our dismounted rifles saquads fought out in the desert, too.

Infantry fight in cities or assault objectives or hold terrain with the assistence of heavier equipment. They often don't have 300 meters to fight in, let alone 800.

That's the great thing about the bigger caliber. It's good at point blank range, or 800 meters. When you consider the dynamics of the modern battlefield, a dynamic infantry rifle is a must.

Why would you want an over-penetrating 7.62 bullet for a fight with the house across the street when a 5.56 or a 6.8 is designed for that fight?

Because a 7.62 will shoot through a cinderblock wall. A 5.56 will barely penetrate 3/4 inch plywood. And when it does, it's lethality is gone.

jafar00
04-22-2008, 08:52 AM
Because a 7.62 will shoot through a cinderblock wall. A 5.56 will barely penetrate 3/4 inch plywood. And when it does, it's lethality is gone.

Good point. I've seen trees cut in half by 7.62mm rounds.

apdst
04-22-2008, 12:14 PM
[quote]Good point. I've seen trees cut in half by 7.62mm rounds.[quote]

I remember reading about American advisors and ARVN soldiers getting into a fire fight. The enemy was behind some thick brush. The Americans were armed with M16's and the ARVN soldiers were toting M-1 Garands. The M-1'a were able to penetrate the brush and make solid kills, where the M16's couldn't.

Osborn F. Enready
04-22-2008, 04:06 PM
Over penetration can be easily controlled through ammunition selection.

Under penetration is not as easily controllable, or improved.

apdst
04-23-2008, 02:28 AM
You're exactly right, Osborn. It's hard, though, to control over penetration is tough to control over penetration with military ammo because it's illegal to use anything other than FMJ ball ammunition.

Osborn F. Enready
04-23-2008, 03:13 PM
APDST said:
You're exactly right, Osborn. It's hard, though, to control over penetration is tough to control over penetration with military ammo because it's illegal to use anything other than FMJ ball ammunition.

Well, that is what you get when you have brain addled legislatures......the result is brain addled legislation, like the ridiculous "requirements" on what type of ammo can be used to dispose of violent enemy combat personnel.

apdst
04-24-2008, 04:17 AM
Well, that is what you get when you have brain addled legislatures......the result is brain addled legislation, like the ridiculous "requirements" on what type of ammo can be used to dispose of violent enemy combat personnel.

I agree 100%. It's the same level of idiocy that made napalm illegal and wants to make land mines illegal.

Ever read about how Germany pressed to make shotguns illegal during WW1?

Osborn F. Enready
04-24-2008, 10:16 AM
APDST said:
Ever read about how Germany pressed to make shotguns illegal during WW1?

I have heard it mentioned, but never read up on the topic.