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Cobra
04-20-2008, 06:23 AM
I'm sure the parents are upset about their kid being killed but the cop acted correctly. he was just defending himself.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/04/16/state/n132402D05.DTL&feed=rss.news

Relatives of a Fresno high school student who was shot to death after he clubbed a police officer with a baseball bat say the teen suffered from mental illness, but he never would have wished to die that way.

Jesus "Jesse" Carrizales, a 17-year-old sophomore, died Wednesday of a single bullet to the chest, fired by a school resources officer, Junus Perry, whom Carrizales had ambushed on a ramp outside his office. The first officers to reach the scene also found a small butcher knife protruding from Carrizales' pocket, authorities said.

Fresno Police Chief Jerry Dyer said Thursday that the 6-foot-tall, 250-pound teen sought out the violent confrontation, which he called "a case of suicide by cop."

Police said there were no prior clashes between Carrizales and Perry, who spent the past three years assigned to Roosevelt High School by the police department.

But it wasn't the first time Carrizales had a run-in with police. In 2005, while in middle school, the student was cited for concealing a small knife in his backpack, Dyer said. Relatives said the knife belonged to a friend.

The next year, however, Carrizales' 10 brothers and sisters noticed he had become withdrawn, and the family decided he would do better at an alternative school where he could pursue independent study. He was prescribed Lexapro and Geodon, drugs used to treat depression, bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, and in January he transferred to Roosevelt High, said his sister Elisa Ortega.

"He was a boy who needed help," said Ortega, 27, said as she made funeral arrangements Thursday afternoon. "He was depressed and he was on medication and the school knew it, so maybe they could have treated things differently."

Carrizales' family said the officer didn't have to shoot the teen, and questioned authorities' account of the attack.

"He never said he wanted to die or anything close to that," Ortega said. "They didn't have to kill him. The Taser guns, the batons they have, that should have been enough to calm the situation down."

Dyer said after Carrizales surprised the officer from behind and struck him in the head with the wooden bat, Perry feared for his life.

The officer fell down dazed, and reached for the gun in his hip holster, but the clip fell out.

As the student came at him again, yelling obscenities and raising the bat above his head, Perry grabbed a secondary weapon — a semiautomatic handgun he carried as backup — from his ankle holster. He fired one round and hit Carrizales in the chest, Dyer said.

The student reportedly died within a few minutes, before paramedics arrived on scene.

"It is unfortunate that the officer was put in a position where he had to take a student's life," Dyer told reporters Thursday. "Had he not defended himself there could have been further tragedy."

At least five students and a probation officer on campus were in the area and witnessed the incident directly, police said. No one else was injured.

Fresno Unified School District spokeswoman Susan Bedi said a confidentiality agreement kept her from commenting on Carrizales' history in local schools, and on students'"individual plans."

His siblings described him as a lighthearted aspiring chef who preferred to play video games with his young cousins rather than take part in adult conversations.

"He was more of a kid himself. He was a momma's boy," said another sister, Irene Ortega, 25, speaking outside her mother's modest Fresno home. "We just want to know what happened before that incident to see what made him do what police say he did."

Perry is recovering at home after being treated for a 2-inch gash on the right side of his head, Dyer said. He is on administrative leave while the department reviews his conduct in their fourth officer-involved shooting this year.

Carrizales' relatives said police have refused to tell the family where his body is being held while they investigate the shooting.

As the first bell rang Thursday morning, students hurried to class filing between security guards posted every 100 yards.

micfranklin
04-20-2008, 04:41 PM
I won't say the cop was completely wrong but couldn't he have shot the student in the leg?

AlanC
04-20-2008, 08:22 PM
I won't say the cop was completely wrong but couldn't he have shot the student in the leg?

I take it you have never had someone try to kill you at close range. In the real world you aim at center mass and hope you can hit something.

The fact that he only fired once is an indication that he remained remarkably under control.

Shooting people in the leg, shooting guns out of people's hands, shooting to wound rather than kill is all stuff created by Hollywood.

micfranklin
04-20-2008, 08:27 PM
Do you think it's possible that the student would've ceased attacking if he had gotten shot in the leg?

Pookie
04-20-2008, 08:36 PM
Probably, yes. A bat is no match for a gun, and if he'd shot the kid through the knee, he wouldn't even try to fight back.
Purrs,
Pookie

AlanC
04-20-2008, 08:42 PM
Do you think it's possible that the student would've ceased attacking if he had gotten shot in the leg?

Of course he would. That is not the issue. Do you think that having been hit in the head with a baseball bat, lying flat on your back, having had to try to get back up gun from your ankle holster and then raise it to shoot at a moving target, you could have hit his leg?

Further more, the leg shot would have only stopped him if it hit bone. And even at that, I have seen people who because of adreneln or drugs or psychosis, remain standing and active for several minutes even with a shattered bone in their leg.

The answer to that, even for well trained people is that it is a low percentage shot and if you miss, you pay for it with your life. Thus, professionals are trained to shoot center mass.

He did his job and he did it properly. Anything less would have placed himself and everyone around him in greater danger.

micfranklin
04-20-2008, 09:09 PM
Of course he would. That is not the issue. Do you think that having been hit in the head with a baseball bat, lying flat on your back, having had to try to get back up gun from your ankle holster and then raise it to shoot at a moving target, you could have hit his leg?

Further more, the leg shot would have only stopped him if it hit bone. And even at that, I have seen people who because of adreneln or drugs or psychosis, remain standing and active for several minutes even with a shattered bone in their leg.

The answer to that, even for well trained people is that it is a low percentage shot and if you miss, you pay for it with your life. Thus, professionals are trained to shoot center mass.

He did his job and he did it properly. Anything less would have placed himself and everyone around him in greater danger.

He was on several kinds of drugs but like Pookie said shooting him in the knee would prevent him from fighting back. I'm not saying he didn't do his job, I'm only saying a leg shot would've been better.

AlanC
04-20-2008, 10:04 PM
He was on several kinds of drugs but like Pookie said shooting him in the knee would prevent him from fighting back. I'm not saying he didn't do his job, I'm only saying a leg shot would've been better.


Better for him, maybe. Better for anyone else? Probably not. And I am telliing you that no Police Department in the country would attempt to train their officers to try a shot like that, for all the reasons I have already posted.

Shooting him in the knee could have stopped him, maybe. Missing his knee would not have stopped him at all.

It wouldn't have been better, to try that would have been a mistake.

apdst
04-20-2008, 10:22 PM
I won't say the cop was completely wrong but couldn't he have shot the student in the leg?

That cop probably had about .5 seconds to react. With fear and adrenaline being in control, he probably just shot, not really worrying too much about the point of impact.

Do you think it's possible that the student would've ceased attacking if he had gotten shot in the leg?

Maybe, maybe not. A leg shot, in a high stressed situation is alot harder than some might think. If he would have went for a leg shot and missed, or only caused a flesh wound, the boy might have pressed forward with the attack. A single blow from the bat, on any part of the body, would have spelled doom for the cop.

At the end of the day, the cop did what he had to do and no one, who has never been in that situation has room to criticize him for his actions.

Truth_and_Power
04-20-2008, 10:41 PM
Pretty hard to hit the legs of a person running, even towards you, while lying on your back and having just received a concussion.. also possibly blood in your eyes? Scalp wounds bleed like the devil. The time to use the taser passed after the first baseball bat blow to the head, which apparently was an ambush. Anybody here ever actually been hit with a baseball bat in the head? I'm thinking maybe December can help us with this.. JUST KIDDING! (mostly)

Truth_and_Power
04-20-2008, 10:44 PM
At the end of the day, the cop did what he had to do and no one, who has never been in that situation has room to criticize him for his actions.

It's fine to criticize someone when you haven't been in their shoes before. They just don't understand how hard it is to actually hit something with a pistol when you are excited and stunned and fearing for your life. Also, they are not thinking from the perspective of goal #1 being self-protection because they do not identify with this cop.

apdst
04-20-2008, 10:54 PM
It's fine to criticize someone when you haven't been in their shoes before

Sure, it's just fine, it's ok, it's their right and more power to them, but when they do it they seriously erode their own credibility as objective thinkers.

micfranklin
04-21-2008, 12:59 AM
Better for him, maybe. Better for anyone else? Probably not. And I am telliing you that no Police Department in the country would attempt to train their officers to try a shot like that, for all the reasons I have already posted.

Shooting him in the knee could have stopped him, maybe. Missing his knee would not have stopped him at all.

It wouldn't have been better, to try that would have been a mistake.

I've never been shot before but I'm still willing to bet that if this kid was hit in the leg he would've gone down. And I'm pretty sure police officers are trained to kill, but not 100% of the time.

AlanC
04-21-2008, 01:08 AM
I've never been shot before but I'm still willing to bet that if this kid was hit in the leg he would've gone down. And I'm pretty sure police officers are trained to kill, but not 100% of the time.

I understand what you are saying and I can understand the sentiment you express. But officers are trained, or should be, that they never fire their weapon except to attempt to kill.

If the situation calls for anything less than leathal force, the gun should never be out of the holster. You don't use it to fire warning shots. You don't use it to wound. You don't use it to scare. You don't use it for anything other than the protection of your own or someone else's life. Period.

I'm not aware of any department that trains their officers in any other way.

apdst
04-21-2008, 01:30 AM
I've never been shot before but I'm still willing to bet that if this kid was hit in the leg he would've gone down.

That would be a fairly safe bet, if you were betting five bucks, but do you wanna bet your life on it?

And I'm pretty sure police officers are trained to kill, but not 100% of the time.

If a situation is critical enough to draw your weapon, it's critical enough to kill your assailant.

Buck Laser
04-21-2008, 04:37 AM
For the good of all concerned, I hope this guy doesn't stay a cop.

micfranklin
04-21-2008, 04:38 AM
For the good of all concerned, I hope this guy doesn't stay a cop.

Uh...why not?

PatrickHenry
04-21-2008, 04:56 AM
It was a good shoot.

The bat to the head was an attempted murder.

The assailant was pressing the attack with the weapon.

The officer is lucky to have survived.

The situation needs careful investigation, but it appears to have been witnessed directly.

I feel for the policeman. Killing a kid can't do your emotions any good.

But survival in an attempted murder sends all the niceties packing.

brien
04-21-2008, 09:51 PM
Those who think the cop could have shot the madman in the leg are dreaming or merely watching too much TV. The cop was assaulted once with a deadly weapon and the guy was coming back to finish him off. If that isn't imminent danger, I don't know what is then. The cop had every right to protect himself through any and all possible means available to him. There probably isn't a jury in the world that would convict him of homicide or even negligent homicide. Sorry for the kid and glad that the cop will survive.