Top Bush aides pushed for Guantánamo torture

[December]

We know the names of all American war criminals and they WILL BE charged with war crimes.

Top Bush aides pushed for Guantánamo torture
Senior officials bypassed army chief to introduce interrogation methods

http://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/04/18/myers4.jpg

US military chief General Richard Myers. Photographer: Khalil Mazraawi/AFP

America's most senior general was "hoodwinked" by top Bush administration officials determined to push through aggressive interrogation techniques of terror suspects held at Guantánamo Bay, leading to the US military abandoning its age-old ban on the cruel and inhumane treatment of prisoners, the Guardian reveals today.

General Richard Myers, chairman of the US joint chiefs of staff from 2001 to 2005, wrongly believed that inmates at Guantánamo and other prisons were protected by the Geneva conventions and from abuse tantamount to torture.

The way he was duped by senior officials in Washington, who believed the Geneva conventions and other traditional safeguards were out of date, is disclosed in a devastating account of their role, extracts of which appear in today's Guardian.

In his new book, Torture Team, Philippe Sands QC, professor of law at University College London, reveals that:

· Senior Bush administration figures pushed through previously outlawed measures with the aid of inexperienced military officials at Guantánamo.

· Myers believes he was a victim of "intrigue" by top lawyers at the department of justice, the office of vice-president Dick Cheney, and at Donald Rumsfeld's defence department.

· The Guantánamo lawyers charged with devising interrogation techniques were inspired by the exploits of Jack Bauer in the American TV series 24.

· Myers wrongly believed interrogation techniques had been taken from the army's field manual.

READ MORE - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/19/guantanamo.usa

[micfranklin]

People on Bush's side advocating torture. No surprises here, they're still just as criminal as the administration and they will be hated for years to come.

[Tessy]

Only hated? How about incarcerated or better yet, federally executed!

[micfranklin]

Impeaching and then jailing them would be just fine with me.

[December]

Impeaching and then jailing them would be just fine with me.

But some have to be executed, and not just jailed.

[MCTHOUSAND]

I just read an article on training that navy pilots go through called SERE, which stands for survival, evasion, resistance, and escape. Part of the training is to be waterboarded. Many in our military have gone through this training.

It is my understanding that only a few terrorists have been interrogated by waterboarding.

These terrorists go through training to kill and maim men, women, children, babies, and anyone else available to them.

So, lets let these guys go through this training exercise and while we're at it get the information we need to SAVE lives.

[Mouth Full Of Teeth]

It is my understanding that only a few terrorists have been interrogated by waterboarding.

It is your understanding based on what source? Those that are doing the waterboarding and are trying to justify its existence?

These terrorists go through training to kill and maim men, women, children, babies, and anyone else available to them.

All militaries do this, to some extent. Western soldiers just have the luxury of doing it from a long distance away.

So, lets let these guys go through this training exercise and while we're at it get the information we need to SAVE lives.

Can you give examples of how waterboarding has saved lives? Or, are you just assuming this based off the excuses that those that are doing the waterboarding, are giving you?

[MCTHOUSAND]

It is unfortunate that non combatants suffer in conflicts. It is my sincere belief that our country goes to extreme measures to minimize this. This is not the case with the other side. The terrorist go to extreme measures to maximize civilian maimings and death.

Israel has the power to cause mass casualties among the civilian population. I believe they take extraordinary efforts to kill only the militants, who hide themselves and their rockets among the general population.

A lot depends on who you want to believe.

[Mouth Full Of Teeth]

A lot depends on who you want to believe.

There, we find some common ground.

[4Reaganomics]

I still do this day do not understand how the left has a monopoly on deciding what is torture and what isn't.

Waterboarding is 3 for 3 and has saved quite a few lives while not injuring or harming the people it was performed on. I'll never get how this is torture.

[Elrathin]

I'll never get how this is torture.

Tell you what, let me perform it on you and you be the judge. Care to try it?

[4Reaganomics]

If it could save 6 year old susie in NYC or 9 year old Michael in the heartland than I wouldn't necessarily oppose taking part in the process.

I'm not physically harmed and lives are saved, to me that is sufficient ground on which to perform the process.

[lily]

[QUOTE=4Reaganomics;173514]I still do this day do not understand how the left has a monopoly on deciding what is torture and what isn't.

I didn't know that International Law and the CIA were a bunch of lefties......hell even the US considered it illegal when it was done to our soldiers.

Waterboarding is 3 for 3 and has saved quite a few lives while not injuring or harming the people it was performed on. I'll never get how this is torture.

Yeah.....if they're admitting to three, you know there is more.......and speaking of those three......just why haven't they been tired yet?

........oh yeah......because they were tortured.

[lily]

If it could save 6 year old susie in NYC or 9 year old Michael in the heartland than I wouldn't necessarily oppose taking part in the process.




Well, then I guess we're in agreement that it should be banned, as that's not why it was used.

[Elrathin]

If it could save 6 year old susie in NYC or 9 year old Michael in the heartland than I wouldn't necessarily oppose taking part in the process.

I'm not physically harmed and lives are saved, to me that is sufficient ground on which to perform the process.

If you don't think it is torture, then why won't you let me perform it on you then?

[lily]

If it's not torture, why don't we use it on prisoners, or suspects to get them to confess?

[MCTHOUSAND]

If it's not torture, why don't we use it on prisoners, or suspects to get them to confess?

We just want the facts maam, just the facts.

By the way, as I said in a previous post, many in our military go through waterboarding as part of their training. This training is very expensive.

These terrorist were given this training FREE OF CHARGE, plus they get free room and board.

[preservanation]

People on Bush's side advocating torture. No surprises here, they're still just as criminal as the administration and they will be hated for years to come.
Only hated? How about incarcerated or better yet, federally executed!
Example # 45...
Are you listening, Troubadour?

People think I'm making this up.
Bah.
I wish I was.

[Buck Laser]

We just want the facts maam, just the facts.

By the way, as I said in a previous post, many in our military go through waterboarding as part of their training. This training is very expensive.

These terrorist were given this training FREE OF CHARGE, plus they get free room and board.
I'd be real interesting in seeing a link that would verify that allegation.

[Elrathin]

Example # 45...
Are you listening, Troubadour?

People think I'm making this up.
Bah.
I wish I was.

Pres, if you don't think water boarding is torture, let me do it to you and you let me know if you think it is or not. If you can't take up the challenge, it is the equivalent of if you can't put up shut up.

[MCTHOUSAND]

I'd be real interesting in seeing a link that would verify that allegation.

google (sere training waterboarding)

[Elrathin]

google (sere training waterboarding)

I am retired military only a small select few compared tot he whole ever go through this type of training and since water boarding has been declared torture NO military now go through with it. What is your thoughts there?

[MCTHOUSAND]

I don't know if you are correct or not. I think the link you saw speaks for itself. I see this as a politically correct issue. If all the guys going through the sere training could handle it, then those "meanies" shouldn't complain.

[Elrathin]

I don't know if you are correct or not. I think the link you saw speaks for itself. I see this as a politically correct issue. If all the guys going through the sere training could handle it, then those "meanies" shouldn't complain.

The link doesn't speak as to the number of military personnel that have experienced this, so I lay that into question.

Does the fact that some, a few (in fact a severe minority) compared to most of the military, justify using it on others?

And it begs to say, if it isn't torture and wrong, why don't we use this on civilians? After all if a child molester confesses because we use this method why aren't we using it?

[MCTHOUSAND]

According to the "SERE-ing" experience account, there were about 100 per month for a period of years that went through the "torture" training.

Marine Corps boot camp with the gas chamber was hard enough for me.

There is a time and place for everything and for people who want to kill, maim, and destroy us, use it when there is no other way.

[Elrathin]

According to the "SERE-ing" experience account, there were about 100 per month for a period of years that went through the "torture" training.

Marine Corps boot camp with the gas chamber was hard enough for me.

There is a time and place for everything and for people who want to kill, maim, and destroy us, use it when there is no other way.

And yet you weren't one of them why not? It isn't torture right?

"And it wasn't performed on suspected Child Molesters in the U.S why not?

[MCTHOUSAND]

And yet you weren't one of them why not? It isn't torture right?

"And it wasn't performed on suspected Child Molesters in the U.S why not?

I'm glad no one suggested it to my drill instructor.

I see this as a last resort interrogation tool and you are the one who brought up child molestors. I don't think child molestors should be waterboarded. I think they should be executed.

[Tessy]

I can't believe what I'm reading here.

I think I have identified the very "people who want to kill, maim, and destroy
us!" and they are typing in this very thread! Yeah, I mean MCTHOUSAND and
Elrathin! You don't even realize how insane you both are do you?

Figuring out ways of calling torture non-torture?
Calling for torture to be used on civilians?
Believing that there are people out to get you?
Believing that there are people who want to destroy your home (I mean besides
Bush and his CFR buddies).

Yup, it's a clear cut case. Say it with me... I - N - S - A - N - E - !

[MCTHOUSAND]

I can't believe what I'm reading here.

I think I have identified the very "people who want to kill, maim, and destroy
us!" and they are typing in this very thread! Yeah, I mean MCTHOUSAND and
Elrathin! You don't even realize how insane you both are do you?

Figuring out ways of calling torture non-torture?
Calling for torture to be used on civilians?
Believing that there are people out to get you?
Believing that there are people who want to destroy your home (I mean besides
Bush and his CFR buddies).

Yup, it's a clear cut case. Say it with me... I - N - S - A - N - E - !


The insane are saving your ass whether you like it or not, from Valley Forge through world war two to 911. You should simply say, thank you.

[Tessy]

I call BS!!! The insane are doing noting but more insane things!

They are killing Iraqi men and woman who just 5 years ago loved
and looked up to the USA in the name of terrorism - which simply
does not exist. The insane have illegally occupied a country and
are steeling it's resources! When the indigenous people rise up
and say: "We may love America but we're not going to allow you
too steel our country, kill our sons and rape our women!" we call
them conveniently I might add, "terrorists" and justify yet more
killing, rape, and theft.

If you personally have allowed yourself to become part of this in
the name of American Nationalism then not only are you insane
but you're gullible as well!

To you and your kind I "simply say:" F-YOU! For it is the likes of you
that has made the world an unsafe place to raise children, stolen our
freedoms and liberties away from us, and generally disenfranchised
the non-elite peoples around the world of their rights to a peaceful
existence. You and your likes will probably never wake up to the
fact that you've been duped into doing these things - into carrying
out the will of truly evil men - for if you did you would likely die of
shame.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions and with men like
yourself (asleep at the switch!) willing to sacrifice life on a mass
scale for those intentions, it is a true hell that we shall have!

[MCTHOUSAND]

I call BS!!! The insane are doing noting but more insane things!

They are killing Iraqi men and woman who just 5 years ago loved
and looked up to the USA in the name of terrorism - which simply
does not exist. The insane have illegally occupied a country and
are steeling it's resources! When the indigenous people rise up
and say: "We may love America but we're not going to allow you
too steel our country, kill our sons and rape our women!" we call
them conveniently I might add, "terrorists" and justify yet more
killing, rape, and theft.

If you personally have allowed yourself to become part of this in
the name of American Nationalism then not only are you insane
but you're gullible as well!

To you and your kind I "simply say:" F-YOU! For it is the likes of you
that has made the world an unsafe place to raise children, stolen our
freedoms and liberties away from us, and generally disenfranchised
the non-elite peoples around the world of their rights to a peaceful
existence. You and you're likes will probably never wake up to the
fact that you've been duped into doing these things - into carrying
out the will of truly evil men - for if you did you would likely die of
shame.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions and with men like
yourself (asleep at the switch!) willing to sacrifice life on a mass
scale for those intentions, it is a true hell that we shall have!

I'm glad you got that off your chest. I almost felt the spray from your out burst. I really don't think you will change your mind but please permit me to say I think your opinion is incorrect. Have a great day!

[Tessy]

How is it incorrect? Please enlighten me. Are we not killing
Iraqi men, women and CHILDREN? I can prove to you that
we are. Are we not calling them "terrorists"? I can prove to
you that we are and at the same time I can prove that they
are indeed not terrorists at all but are only fighting for their
country as you yourself would - no doubt. Are we not steeling
the resources of that nation? I can show you that we indeed
are. Are we making it safe to raise children where we go with
our might? I can prove that indeed we are making it very unsafe
and are ourselves the distributors of terror.

Please, I await your enlightening disclosure which I'm sure will
explain how any of these things are just, right, and represent
the ideals that the USA was founded on - namely that all men
are created equal and have inalienable rights to liberty and the
pursuit of happiness.

While you're at it and to keep it on topic go ahead and justify
torture some more too.

[MCTHOUSAND]

How is it incorrect? Please enlighten me. Are we not killing
Iraqi men, women and CHILDREN? I can prove to you that
we are. Are we not calling them "terrorists"? I can prove to
you that we are and at the same time I can prove that they
are indeed not terrorists at all but are only fighting for their
country as you yourself would - no doubt. Are we not steeling
the resources of that nation? I can show you that we indeed
are. Are we making it safe to raise children where we go with
our might? I can prove that indeed we are making it very unsafe
and are ourselves the distributors of terror.

Please, I await your enlightening disclosure which I'm sure will
explain how any of these things are just, right, and represent
the ideals that the USA was founded on - namely that all men
are created equal and have inalienable rights to liberty and the
pursuit of happiness.

While you're at it and to keep it on topic go ahead and justify
torture some more too.

First of all I believe America is a great and noble country. After the defeat of Germany and Japan this country helped them get back on their feet and now look at them. Look at South Korea. Look at the Marshal plan. We are in a war with radical Islam. This has been gathering for many years and we must win it. For the first time ever, there is a chance, just a chance, that a country in the middle east could blossum into a peaceful and properous country like Germany, Japan, South Korea.

I don't believe we are stealing anything from Iraq, and as far as torture is concerned I don't think you and I will ever agree.

Now, not only are our forces building schools, repairing power plants, and other good deeds, they are saving your ass whether you like it or not. Thank you.

[Tessy]

That's it????

All you've said is you "believe" something there's evidence for.
You're not going to change many minds with tripe like that. The
fact that they may have rebuilt a school or two is good. That they
rebuilt the power plants (which they destroyed in the first place)
so that they can continue to take over and occupy that country is
just more of the same insanity but in a later stage of development.

I remain wholly unconvinced. None of the things you've mentioned
so far are even worth the life of a single Iraqi. Not even a good try.

[Tessy]

We are in a war with radical Islam.

No such think exists except what the CIA has created and what exists
in your own mind. I think you've just proven the case for insanity against
you.

[Tessy]

...as far as torture is concerned I don't think you and I will ever agree.

Of course not. I say torture is torture! You are busy trying desperately
to redefine it so as to justify your precious government and perhaps your
own participation in it.

Sorry, if I even scratch the skin of a human against his will in order to
control, punish, or condition a person it's torture! It's illegal! It's not
humane, it's evil in the truest sense, and anyone condoning it who is in
a position of power should be shot! Not tortured, but shot!

[lily]

First of all I believe America is a great and noble country. After the defeat of Germany and Japan this country helped them get back on their feet and now look at them. Look at South Korea. Look at the Marshal plan. We are in a war with radical Islam. This has been gathering for many years and we must win it. For the first time ever, there is a chance, just a chance, that a country in the middle east could blossum into a peaceful and properous country like Germany, Japan, South Korea.

German, Japan and South Korea are countries.......radical Islam is an ideal.

I don't believe we are stealing anything from Iraq, and as far as torture is concerned I don't think you and I will ever agree.

Did we or did we not allow free and undisturbed looting of their museums? Priceless artifacts that can never be replaced.

Now, not only are our forces building schools, repairing power plants, and other good deeds, they are saving your ass whether you like it or not. Thank you.


How are they saving my ass?

[MCTHOUSAND]

German, Japan and South Korea are countries.......radical Islam is an ideal.



Did we or did we not allow free and undisturbed looting of their museums? Priceless artifacts that can never be replaced.




How are they saving my ass?


Our military is the reason you don't speak German or Japanese and insure that you won't wear a Burka unless you really want to, and I know it was a grievious error that the museums weren't our first priorty. Our bad.

Nazism and the Emperor were ideals. You gotta fightem where you findem.

[lily]

Our military is the reason you don't speak German or Japanese and insure that you won't wear a Burka unless you really want to, and I know it was a grievious error that the museums weren't our first priorty. Our bad.



YAWN...............you didn't debate any of my topics, just spouted off more talking points.

[MCTHOUSAND]

YAWN...............you didn't debate any of my topics, just spouted off more talking points.

Print out my last answer and when you have trouble sleeping, just read it again. By the way, I read somewhere that there are designer burkas available now. You can probably google that and findem.

[Tessy]

Here's an honest man with more access to CIA and government files than any
of us here talking on the subject.

This is only part 3 of a 6 part series but it sums up what sane people typically
think and feel on the issue and as I said it's an opinion based of real facts and
government information gathering (intelligence) instead of insane forum posters
spouting non-sense.

2tYcH1BeSc4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tYcH1BeSc4&feature=related