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suedanim
04-19-2008, 07:37 PM
Justice Stevens Renounces Capital Punishment (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/18/washington/18memo.html?em&ex=1208664000&en=f69acfed3ad3400e&ei=5087%0A)

By LINDA GREENHOUSE (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/g/linda_greenhouse/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
Published: April 18, 2008

WASHINGTON — When Justice John Paul Stevens (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/john_paul_stevens/index.html?inline=nyt-per) intervened in a Supreme Court (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/s/supreme_court/index.html?inline=nyt-org) argument on Wednesday to score a few points off the lawyer who was defending the death penalty for the rape of a child, the courtroom audience saw a master strategist at work, fully in command of the flow of the argument and the smallest details of the case. For those accustomed to watching Justice Stevens, it was a familiar sight.


But there was something different that no one in the room knew except the eight other justices. In the decision issued 30 minutes earlier in which the court found Kentucky’s method of execution by lethal injection constitutional, John Paul Stevens, in the 33rd year of his Supreme Court tenure and four days shy of his 88th birthday, had just renounced the death penalty.

In an opinion concurring with the majority’s judgment, Justice Stevens said he felt bound to “respect precedents that remain a part of our law.” But outside the confines of the Kentucky case, he said, the time had come to reconsider “the justification for the death penalty itself.”

He wrote that court decisions and actions taken by states to justify the death penalty were “the product of habit and inattention rather than an acceptable deliberative process” to weigh the costs and risks of the penalty against its benefits.

His opinion, which was not separately announced in the courtroom, was the culmination of a remarkable journey for a Republican antitrust lawyer.

During his tenure, Justice Stevens, originally an opponent of affirmative action, has changed his views on that and other issues. “Learning on the job is essential to the process of judging,” he observed in a speech in 2005.

But it is on the death penalty that his evolution is most apparent. He was named to the Supreme Court by President Gerald R. Ford (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/f/gerald_rudolph_jr_ford/index.html?inline=nyt-per) at a time when ferment over capital punishment was at a peak. Less than four years earlier, the court had invalidated every death penalty statute in the country, and states were racing to draft laws that would test the court’s tolerance for a fresh start.

In July 1976, little more than six months after taking his seat, Justice Stevens announced the opinion for the court in Jurek v. Texas, one of the three cases by which the justices gave their approval to a new generation of death penalty statutes. The defendant, Jerry Lane Jurek, had been convicted of kidnapping a 10-year-old girl from a public swimming pool and then raping and killing her.

The new justice’s opinion described the crime in vivid detail before concluding that Mr. Jurek’s death sentence was constitutional because “Texas has provided a means to promote the evenhanded, rational and consistent imposition of death sentences under law.”

During the child rape argument on Wednesday, it was the lawyer for Louisiana who was giving the vivid description of the crime, recounting in grisly anatomic detail the injuries inflicted on an 8-year-old girl by her stepfather, the convicted rapist challenging the state’s death penalty law. As justices and the courtroom audience cringed, the air seemed to leave the room, along with any points the defendant’s lawyer had managed to make in his initial turn at the lectern.

Justice Stevens had remained silent during that first half of the argument, but now he pounced. “Could you clarify?” he began, interrupting the state’s lawyer, Juliet L. Clark. “Were those injuries permanent?”

He knew the answer, of course: the record of the case indicated that the girl’s physical injuries had healed in two weeks. His point was to bring the anatomy lesson to an end and refocus the argument on the legal issues. If it was also to throw the state’s lawyer off stride, he succeeded in that as well. Ms. Clark, reluctantly conceding that the injuries had healed, shifted to her legal arguments. Justice Stevens’s mild expression and tone never changed.

His renunciation of capital punishment in the lethal injection case, Baze v. Rees, was likewise low key and undramatic. While reminiscent of Justice Harry A. Blackmun (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/harry_a_blackmun/index.html?inline=nyt-per)’s similar step, shortly before his retirement in 1994, Justice Stevens’s opinion lacked the ringing declaration of Justice Blackmun’s “From this day forward, I no longer shall tinker with the machinery of death.” Justice Stevens’s strongest statements were not in his own voice, but in quotations from a former colleague, Justice Byron R. White (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/w/byron_r_white/index.html?inline=nyt-per), an early death penalty opponent.

But Justice Stevens was not so restrained last June in an opinion dissenting from a decision that in retrospect appears to have been, for him, the final straw. In that case, Uttecht v. Brown, a 5-to-4 majority gave state courts great leeway in death penalty trials to remove jurors who express even mild doubt about capital punishment.

“Millions of Americans oppose the death penalty” and yet can serve as conscientious jurors, Justice Stevens objected then, adding that the majority “has gotten it horribly backwards” in enabling prosecutors to weed them out.

In his opinion on Wednesday, Justice Stevens said the Uttecht decision was “of special concern to me,” and used it to explain his journey from Jurek v. Texas to Baze v. Rees. Those who voted to uphold the death penalty in 1976, he said, “relied heavily on our belief that adequate procedures were in place” to treat death penalty cases with special care so as to minimize bias and error.

“Ironically, however,” he continued, “more recent cases have endorsed procedures that provide less protections to capital defendants than to ordinary offenders.”

In other words, capital punishment had become for him, in the court’s hands, a promise of fairness unfulfilled.

One of the court’s most frequent dissenters throughout his tenure, Justice Stevens, an optimist at heart, does not look back on every loss with such a sense of stinging disappointment. In 1989, he dissented vigorously from the court’s decision in Texas v. Johnson that flag-burning is a form of expression protected by the First Amendment. While he still believes he was right, he told a Chicago audience of lawyers in 2006, he sees a silver lining: flag-burning has all but disappeared.

“What once was a courageous act of defiant expression,” he said, “is now perfectly lawful, and therefore is not worth the effort.”

Scribbler1
04-19-2008, 09:05 PM
As people mature, and as more information becomes available, people DO change their minds at times. That is actually a mark of superior intellect.

I personally support the DP, where once I did not, although not as it's used today. I can't agree with Stevens but I can appreciate his position on this difficult issue.


And flag burning hasn't almost disappeared. It was never a big issue to begin with in terms of numbers.

suedanim
04-19-2008, 09:55 PM
I oppose the death penalty and celebrate Judge Stevens newfound wisdom.

I can agree there are some who just don't deserve life. But our justice system is so utterly riddled with corruption, incompetance, bigotry and blatant classism, how can we support a sentence as final, as ruthless as the crimes which we claim to be punishing?

When overt racial profiling, aggressive charges, prosecution and sentencing are not evenly applied regardless of race or ethnicity, the death penalty and overly long sentences just becomes a tool for ethnic cleansing, imo.

Drocket
04-19-2008, 10:11 PM
I agree with suedanim: while I agree with the death penalty in theory, the reality of how its applied is so filled with biases and errors that it simply shouldn't be done until we can guarantee it'll be done right. Its simply too final of a solution to be applied when there's even the slightest hint of doubt as to whether its being applied correctly.

And kudos for Stephens for being willing to change his mind on the issue.

Buck Laser
04-19-2008, 10:58 PM
I have ALWAYS been opposed to the death penalty, at least as early as I was aware of it. Even the worst criminals--John Wayne Gacy (who was executed), Jeffrey Dahmer (who was murdered), the Nazi war criminals--all should have been sentenced to something other than death. It's not only the possibility of executing an innocent person, but also the fact that by now in human evolution, we should have moved beyond this kind of punishment.

Although I don't accept it as a justification, keeping a dangerous criminal away from society is the only argument that even comes close to making death acceptable as a penalty. I might take it a step further and allow the convicted prisoner to request death, but that option should be allowed only in extreme cases. I offer that as an option only because I believe every person has the right to choose the time of death.

I respect both Drocket and suedanim's views, but there's just no way I can work around this fundamental belief. Please understand that I accept the possibility that I might grow so lustful for vengeance that I might try to kill someone. But that doesn't remotely make it right.

apdst
04-19-2008, 11:14 PM
the reality of how its applied is so filled with biases and errors that it simply shouldn't be done until we can guarantee it'll be done right.

That's why I believe it should be applied to all murder and rape cases, without exception.

Buck Laser
04-19-2008, 11:16 PM
That's why I believe it should be applied to all murder and rape cases, without exception.
Even in cases of mistaken identity? Real cool.

apdst
04-19-2008, 11:28 PM
Even in cases of mistaken identity?

Improve the system. Don't allow rapists and murderers to live in a club-med jail house, just because there's a slim chance they may be innocent. Mistaken prosecutions are too rare to worry about it.

Buck Laser
04-19-2008, 11:30 PM
Improve the system. Don't allow rapists and murderers to live in a club-med jail house, just because there's a slim chance they may be innocent. Mistaken prosecutions are too rare to worry about it.

Tell me, apdst: do you know of any murderers who are actually living in "club med jailhouses?" I can hardly wait to see your reply. :madlaugh:

apdst
04-19-2008, 11:34 PM
do you know of any murderers who are actually living in "club med jailhouses?"

Not all murderers and rapists go to TV like hell hole prisons. Prisons are too limp wristed nowadays.

Buck Laser
04-19-2008, 11:37 PM
Not all murderers and rapists go to TV like hell hole prisons. Prisons are too limp wristed nowadays.
I asked you for FACTS, not uninformed opinions, apdst.

apdst
04-20-2008, 12:03 AM
Willie Horton.

There you go.

Buck Laser
04-20-2008, 03:03 AM
Willie Horton.

There you go.
Willie Horton was released from prison and murdered again. I don't know what kind of prison he was in, but I'm willing to bet it was no "club med" prison. Still waiting for a responsive reply instead of more obfuscation...can you do it?

apdst
04-20-2008, 03:22 AM
Willie Horton was released from prison and murdered again.

Willie Horton was released from prison on a weekend furlough. Any prison that allows murderers to take the weekend off, from prison, is a friggin cake walk of a prison.

apdst
04-20-2008, 03:23 AM
And, ya know what? The bastard STILL didn't get the death penalty.

suedanim
04-20-2008, 05:44 AM
Perhaps the bleakest fact of all is that the death penalty is imposed not only in a freakish and discriminatory manner, but also in some cases upon defendants who are actually innocent.
-Justice William J. Brennan, Jr., 19941 (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=292#1)


apdst.. the Willie Horton argument is a fallacy. You cannot justify the death penalty with his case when hundreds of cases are not only available to show innocent men released from death row, but hundreds crying out for help proclaiming their innocence. Where there is this much proof that the system has failed, too much doubt that fair justice has been served, no one should in good faith support the death penalty.

I oppose it too for the inhumanity of it, the outright contradiction. How can we the state murder? It makes us as guilty as those condemned. Killing is not the answer.

Instead of talking about Willie Horton as cause for the death penalty... Talk about Glen Chapman as cause to divorce ourselves from the death penalty forever. This is just one example... There are many others.

Another innocent inmate leaves death row (http://www.newsobserver.com/news/crime_safety/story/1023074.html)
Glen Chapman spent almost 14 years awaiting execution because an investigator lied and withheld evidence





Death Penalty: (http://www.aclu.org/capital/index.html)

The death penalty is the ultimate denial of civil liberties. In the past 30 years, 124 inmates were found to be innocent and released from death row. The ACLU Capital Punishment Project (http://www.aclu.org/capital/general/10521res20040409.html) is fighting for the end of the death penalty by supporting moratorium and repeal movements through public education and advocacy. We are engaged in systemic reform of the death penalty process, and case-specific litigation highlighting some of its fundamental flaws.

__________________________________


I guess we could talk about each of the 124 known innocent. And what about the rest? Those whose cases where the DNA evidence was lost or not able to be taken, the evidence flimsy, the IDing faulty, the investigators liars, the prosecutors looking to make a name for themselves.

You know most accused aren't Duke Lacrosse players with big bucks, a team of well paid attorneys to fight the system, fight the evidence and ultimately to bring down an arrogant prosecutor. MOST quietly go to prison, stay in jail from the moment they are arrested. No one can afford to post bail for them.

apdst
04-20-2008, 07:31 AM
You cannot justify the death penalty with his case when hundreds of cases are not only available to show innocent men released from death row, but hundreds crying out for help proclaiming their innocence.

They're all going to claim to be innocent...LOL!

The young couple that Willie Horton murdered were ultimately denied their civil rights.

There were 124 inmates found innocent. How many felons, who have been convicted of a capital crime, have been released and offended again? Compare that number to your 124. Ask their survivors about their loved ones' civil rights.

Elrathin
04-20-2008, 07:36 AM
So apdst, are you saying it is ok for one innocent person to be put to death?

apdst
04-20-2008, 07:39 AM
Are you saying that it's ok for innocent citizens to subjected to dagerous criminals who have been released on a technicality?

Elrathin
04-20-2008, 07:50 AM
Are you saying that it's ok for innocent citizens to subjected to dagerous criminals who have been released on a technicality?

When you answer mine I will answer yours.

Trish
04-20-2008, 03:14 PM
I support the death penalty in certain cases. I have never thought the death penalty was some type of crime deterrent, but I do believe in some instances, where the crime is so heinous and the evidence so overwhelming, that nothing else but the death penalty fits the crime committed.

With that said, I also believe in our system of justice where it is better for 100 guilty people go free than one innocent person be convicted. I am firmly a believer that the state must prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. In those cases, where the evidence is not absolutely clear cut as to guilt then I do not believe the death penalty should be imposed even if a guilty verdict is returned by the jury.

As for Justice Stevens' about face on the death penalty, I think it's very admirable that a person in his position, not to mention his age, is able to reassess long-held viewpoints and then change that viewpoint when his conscience dictates.

Buck Laser
04-20-2008, 05:44 PM
And, ya know what? The bastard STILL didn't get the death penalty.
And you still don't answer: where's the "club med" prison for murderers? That's because you CAN'T provide an answer. This is just like your "All muslims are evil" bit. All you have is an attitude--no facts, no ideas, no arguments. That's why conservatives don't fare so well here. Go read up some, learn some real history and political science, and then maybe you'll be able to acquit yourself better, instead of responding with non sequiturs when you can't even answer a simple, straightforward question.

suedanim
04-20-2008, 05:49 PM
Are you saying that it's ok for innocent citizens to subjected to dagerous criminals who have been released on a technicality?

You have not made clear who the dangerous criminals released on a technicality are. But, if you are referring to the 124 released from death row... then you are NOT referring to dangerous criminals or their release on technicalities. They were and are innocent of any crime. The crime for them was their incarceration and sentence to death.

These men... (I think it was all men) were released either because DNA proved their innocence, law enforcement lied, witness issues, the real offender confessed, public defender or prosecution malfeasance or a combination of some or even all of those. The truth is, eyewitnesses, often get it all wrong. In other words, those released were proven innocent.

Do you have any proof, any reports that any of the 124 released from death row have reoffended?

I agree the system needs fixing keeping certain murderers, in jail, forever, especially if there is any doubt about their reoffending. People who prey on women and children rarely change and I am all for life without possibility of parole in those cases. But, death? Death is final. Death does not allow them while incarcerated to rehabilitate enough to give something back both for their victims, their victims families and society while they remain incarcerated.

It is very possible that some criminals sentenced to life without possibility of parole could have great impact on young people. They could be powerful testimony to others that their life choices are all wrong.

Besides... execution makes someone a murderer. Does anybody get that?

You might try to explain it away to yourself with.. it was done by the state (the state is all of us) or the person pulling the lever won't know for sure which one pulled the killing chemical or electricity. But, the bottom line is.. execution IS murder. I don't care how sterile the killing room is, how methodical the performance or how legal the permission to kill, its all cover for murder of another human being.

Trish
04-20-2008, 06:23 PM
You have not made clear who the dangerous criminals released on a technicality are. But, if you are referring to the 124 released from death row... then you are NOT referring to dangerous criminals or their release on technicalities. They were and are innocent of any crime. The crime for them was their incarceration and sentence to death.

These men... (I think it was all men) were released either because DNA proved their innocence, law enforcement lied, witness issues, the real offender confessed, public defender or prosecution malfeasance or a combination of some or even all of those. The truth is, eyewitnesses, often get it all wrong. In other words, those released were proven innocent.

Do you have any proof, any reports that any of the 124 released from death row have reoffended?

I agree the system needs fixing keeping certain murderers, in jail, forever, especially if there is any doubt about their reoffending. People who prey on women and children rarely change and I am all for life without possibility of parole in those cases. But, death? Death is final. Death does not allow them while incarcerated to rehabilitate enough to give something back both for their victims, their victims families and society while they remain incarcerated.

It is very possible that some criminals sentenced to life without possibility of parole could have great impact on young people. They could be powerful testimony to others that their life choices are all wrong.

Besides... execution makes someone a murderer. Does anybody get that?

You might try to explain it away to yourself with.. it was done by the state (the state is all of us) or the person pulling the lever won't know for sure which one pulled the killing chemical or electricity. But, the bottom line is.. execution IS murder. I don't care how sterile the killing room is, how methodical the performance or how legal the permission to kill, its all cover for murder of another human being.

No, execution does not make one a murderer. Just as killing in self-defense does not make one a murderer, just as killing in a war situation does not make one a murderer. They have in common the death of another human being, but they are not murder.

preservanation
04-21-2008, 12:32 PM
Some might find this interesting.
Even in a state where the sickest of the sick perpetrate gruesome acts regularly, this raised some eyebrows because of the circumstances surrounding his release and subsequent heinous rape murder.
Wisconsin man guilty in photog's murder
Had spent 18 years in jail already for a crime he didn't commit


BY CARRIE ANTLFINGER
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Posted Sunday, March 18th 2007, 7:20 PM

CHILTON, Wis. - A man who spent 18 years in prison for a rape he didn't commit was convicted Sunday of murdering a photographer, whose charred bones were found in a burn pit outside his home.

Steven Avery, 44, shook his head when the verdict was read. He faces a mandatory life prison term for killing Teresa Halbach, 25, on Halloween 2005 near his family's salvage yard.

Halbach disappeared Oct. 31, 2005, after going to the yard in rural Manitowoc County to photograph a minivan that Avery's sister had for sale through Auto Trader Magazine. Avery had called that morning to request the photo, testimony showed.

A few days later, Halbach's vehicle was found in the Avery salvage lot under branches, pieces of wood and car parts. Investigators then spent a week on the 40-acre property and found charred fragments of her bones in a pit behind Avery's garage and in a barrel, along with her camera and cell phone.

Two years before Halbach died, Avery was released from prison after serving 18 years for a Manitowoc County rape that DNA analysis showed he did not commit. He later settled a wrongful-conviction lawsuit against the county for $400,000 and used it for his defense.

The jury convicted Avery of first-degree intentional homicide and being a felon in possession of a firearm. He was acquitted of mutilating a corpse. The panel deliberated over three days and heard a month of testimony. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2007/03/18/2007-03-18_wisconsin_man_guilty_in_photogs_murder_print.ht ml

suedanim
04-21-2008, 04:49 PM
Some might find this interesting.
Even in a state where the sickest of the sick perpetrate gruesome acts regularly, this raised some eyebrows because of the circumstances surrounding his release and subsequent heinous rape murder.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2007/03/18/2007-03-18_wisconsin_man_guilty_in_photogs_murder_print.ht ml

Whats your point though?

That anyone accused and convicted, innocent or not, should not be released? All this article says to me is that 18 fuckn years in prison probably turned what used to be a good man into an animal.

For every article you have like that, I can match it with horror tales of innocent men and women wrongly convicted, botched executions, horrific crimes against convicts both by the state and other convicts.


Capital punishment is to the rest of all law as surrealism is to realism. It destroys the logic of the profession."
Norman Mailer, The Executioner's Song


When do we stop using semantics and face reality? Execution, capital punishment are simply tidy words to describe a methodical, often extremely painful, grisly killing. How will history views us in 1,000 years? The way we view the Spanish Inquisition? The Roman Empire and other ancient civilizations around the world? All killed by the sanctioning of the state or kingdom.

Man decides which crimes merit capital punishment, but man in inconsistent. Granting death for such crimes as adultery, sodomy, treason (which is defined by whatever the state says it is), political opposition, cowardice, desertion and so on. Some are stoned to death, whipped, then beheaded... and its all state ordained. That we, in the US, have gone to elaborate efforts to sterilize the event, pulling curtains so the torturous cruelty cannot be viewed, does not make the killing less than murder.

Besides being outrageous cruelty, most especially for the innocent who sit and wait for many years quite often to die, many state killings are botched. Something else for the condemned to think about.

In other words, there is no efficient way to kill a human being. All the pretty words you can think of won't change that fact. The Reverend Jim Jones was a far more efficient murderer than the state is. Veterinarians put animals down more efficiently and with less pain and drama. And how do these "teams" performing the tasks of killing live with themselves?

Is the REVENGE worth it?

Warning... don't visit these links unless you are prepared for graphic pictures and descriptions.

Botched executions in the USA (http://www.ccadp.org/botchedx.htm)


When Executions Go Wrong: A Horribly Botched Florida Killing Adds Strong Impetus to a National Reconsideration of Capital Punishment (http://writ.news.findlaw.com/commentary/20061218_sarat.html)


Human Rights Watch, VI. Botched Executions (http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/us0406/8.htm)

Death Trip, the American Way of Execution (http://www.thenation.com/doc/20010108/sherrill)

Buck Laser
04-21-2008, 04:54 PM
Looks to me like Preserv is back to his chaos stage. When you don't have to think in terms of principle and truth, you can say just about anything and do just about anything if it seems to advance your immediate argument.

I can't get away from the idea that executing prisoners just gives some people a sense of moral superiority.