Praying passenger removed from flight

[lily]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24191236/

Praying passenger removed from flight
Orthodox Jewish man ignored flight crew instructions during religious ritual

updated 47 minutes ago
NEW YORK - A passenger who left his seat to pray in the back of a plane
before it took off, ignoring flight attendants' orders to return, was
removed by an airport security guard, a witness and the airline said.

The Orthodox Jewish man, who wore a full beard, a black hat and a long black
coat, stood near the lavatories and began saying his prayers while the
United Airlines jet was being boarded at John F. Kennedy International
Airport on Wednesday night, fellow passenger Ori Brafman said.

When flight attendants urged the man, who was carrying a religious book, to
take his seat, he ignored them, Brafman said. Two friends, who were seated,
tried to tell the attendants that the man couldn't stop until his prayers
were over in about 2 minutes, he said.



"He doesn't respond to them, but his friends explain that once you start
praying you can't stop," said Brafman, who was seated three rows away.

When the man finally stopped praying, he explained that he couldn't
interrupt his religious ritual and wasn't trying to be rude. But the
attendants summoned a guard to remove him, said Brafman, a writer who had
been visiting New York to talk to publishers.

[potter]

One of the reasons I refuse to fly, they're rude.

[Alonzo]

I bet they thought he was Muslim.

[December]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24191236/

And what is your opinion, Lily?

[potter]

I bet they thought he was Muslim.

Huh? With a full beard, black hat and long black coat? I mean REALLY.......

[micfranklin]

Shoulda let the man pray and let it go.

[Buck Laser]

When I saw the title of this thread, I just KNEW it was gonna be about a Muslim praying. I'm glad it wasn't.

[Go Fish]

He ignored the crew? Jail him for 2 days and investigate him.

[PostmodernProphet]

I wish there were more details.....were people still boarding or was he delaying take off?.....

[potter]

There is such a thing as common courtesy guys...you really think anyone was really offended cause the guy wanted to say a prayer before flight? No, the flight attendant just wanted to be a hardass......

Somewhere along the line everyone forgot HE is the customer.

[micfranklin]

He ignored the crew? Jail him for 2 days and investigate him.

That's sarcasm right?

[PostmodernProphet]

No, the flight attendant just wanted to be a hardass......
that certainly is possible....when I flew last week...the stewardess was walking down the aisle and she stopped by me...."Sir, all bags must be under the seat"....I looked down and my bag was under my seat, but about two inches of the strap was sticking out under my feet....I looked at her and gave it a kick....

[apdst]

He was violating airline safety rules, possibly endangering his safety and the safety of the other passengers.

I'm glad it wasn't a Muslims, too. Now, the Muslims can stop crying about being picked on.

[Go Fish]

That's sarcasm right?

Not one bit. That woman who strangled herself trying to get out of her handcuffs is an example of why any disruptive passenger needs to be thoroughly investigated. And that whole Richard Reid thing.

[PostmodernProphet]

He was violating airline safety rules, possibly endangering his safety and the safety of the other passengers.


you don't have enough information from this article to say that.....there may still have been people boarding or sticking their bags in the overhead....or kicking their carryon bag straps under their seat.....

[micfranklin]

Not one bit. That woman who strangled herself trying to get out of her handcuffs is an example of why any disruptive passenger needs to be thoroughly investigated. And that whole Richard Reid thing.

Praying is disruptive now?

I like how you used that one isolated case of a disruptive passenger and compare it with this guy who felt it necessary to pray to his God.

[apdst]

Praying is disruptive now?

Refusing to obey safety guidelines is not only disruptive, it's illegal.

[micfranklin]

Refusing to obey safety guidelines is not only disruptive, it's illegal.

So now it's illegal to pray for a safe trip? Got it.

[apdst]

So now it's illegal to pray for a safe trip? Got it.

You don't get it, as usual. He didn't kicked off the plane for praying. He got kicked off the plane for not cooperating with the flight crew. An airplane is like a ship: what the crew says, goes.

[micfranklin]

You don't get it, as usual. He didn't kicked off the plane for praying. He got kicked off the plane for not cooperating with the flight crew. An airplane is like a ship: what the crew says, goes.

Here's an idea: maybe they should try respecting his religion and prayer. And its not like he didn't want to cooperate he was doing what a good religious person does.

[Go Fish]

Here's an idea: maybe they should try respecting his religion and prayer. And its not like he didn't want to cooperate he was doing what a good religious person does.

Maybe they should have Tazered him and done a body cavity search after the first request that he shut the fuck up?

[Mayberry]

Somewhere along the line everyone forgot HE is the customer.
Too much of that nowadays. That's why I won't fly, and if I can't make it or do it myself, I won't buy it. I'm tired of hearing people complain about getting nothing but "phone robots" or some Indian when they call customer service, lack of manufacturer or retailer support for warranty claims, and the generally pissy attitudes of people nowadays. This is a large part of the reason why our economy is going in the tank. People just expect crap and no service today, and they're avoiding it in greater numbers. This disposable economy will not sustain it's self.

[micfranklin]

Maybe they should have Tazered him and done a body cavity search after the first request that he shut the fuck up?

All that would've been just bullying for no reason and if he sued them I'd donate to his cause.

Tazering a praying man, what kind of elitist bullshit is that?

[lily]

Not one bit. That woman who strangled herself trying to get out of her handcuffs is an example of why any disruptive passenger needs to be thoroughly investigated. And that whole Richard Reid thing.

That woman that strangled herself wasn't on an airplane, she was in airport security, if I recall correctly for being drunk and disruptive? Richard Reid wasn't praying.

Also, it was explained to her what he was doing, why he couldn't be disturbed and that he would be done in 2 minutes.

[apdst]

maybe they should try respecting his religion and prayer. And its not like he didn't want to cooperate he was doing what a good religious person does.

As usual, Liberals wanna make it about what it's not. No one gives a shit if the dude was praying. He wasn't following the instructions of the flight crew and, that's illegal. It's like this, if he got kicked off the plane it means that one of the flight officers had to get involved. Speaking just me, I would rather all my flight officers be performing their duties rather than dealing with some cat that won't sit down and buckle his seat belt.

[Elrathin]

Here's an idea: maybe they should try respecting his religion and prayer. And its not like he didn't want to cooperate he was doing what a good religious person does.

As was already said by others it depends on whether his praying was delaying the flight. If that was the case, the crew did the right thing.

Courtesy works both ways, a courteous person would wait until later or do it or before boarding the flight.

[Elrathin]

Also, it was explained to her what he was doing, why he couldn't be disturbed and that he would be done in 2 minutes.

Lily, the crew is given specific orders, if this guy was delaying the flight they did the right thing according to their duties. If anyone needs to complain for this it is to the airline for making these rules they have to follow.

For me, it all depends whether or not he was delaying the flight or not. If he was, the crew did their duties, if he wasn't then they were out of line.

[Elrathin]

As usual, Liberals wanna make it about what it's not.

apdst, why are you making this a liberal/conservative issue? I know conservatives that would stand up for this guy if he were Christian. This isn't about liberal or conservative.

[Go Fish]

All that would've been just bullying for no reason and if he sued them I'd donate to his cause.

Tazering a praying man, what kind of elitist bullshit is that?

It's called controlling an unruly passenger through non-lethal means. I'm guessing that you don't own a firearm.

[lily]

For me, it all depends whether or not he was delaying the flight or not. If he was, the crew did their duties, if he wasn't then they were out of line.

Sorry, El.......I have to laugh at this, considering how flights are delayed and passengers sitting on airplanes going nowhere for hours.......what's 2 minutes?

Could he have done it before or after? I suppose........but I wasn't there, I would imagine he thought he had time......I mean 2 minutes? Hell, the flight attendent tried to talk to him while he was in the middle of praying....so what's that a minute to a minute and a half she had to wait?

[apdst]

apdst, why are you making this a liberal/conservative issue?

Because Liberals always falsify the real issue.

"Bill CLinton was impeached because he got his cock sucked"; it had nothing to do with perjuring himself before a grand jury.

"This guy got kicked off the plane because he was praying"; it had nothing to do with his refusal to follow the instructions of the flight crew.

See what I mean?

[PostmodernProphet]

Sorry, El.......I have to laugh at this, considering how flights are delayed and passengers sitting on airplanes going nowhere for hours.......what's 2 minutes?



at a busy airport?.....perhaps that plane's chance to use a runway......and that's WHY many planes sit going nowhere for hours......they miss their window.....

[Elrathin]

Sorry, El.......I have to laugh at this, considering how flights are delayed and passengers sitting on airplanes going nowhere for hours.......what's 2 minutes?

Could he have done it before or after? I suppose........but I wasn't there, I would imagine he thought he had time......I mean 2 minutes? Hell, the flight attendent tried to talk to him while he was in the middle of praying....so what's that a minute to a minute and a half she had to wait?

That 2 minute is according to the man. If they would have waited for him and it was longer than 2 minutes and then they missed the chance at getting their spot on the runway, the crew would be the one in trouble and possibly fired.

Tell me Lily, would you put your job on the line so some guy could pray for two minutes, when you weren't sure it would take just two minutes? I don't think you would and I sure as hell know I wouldn't.

[Trish]

I'm all for people being respectful and tolerant of other people's religious views and practices. But I also think that people shouldn't place their religious practices and beliefs at the forefront in public venues. I don't know if the Jewish religion mandates followers pray at certain times in a ritualistic manner or not. I do know that Islam has a prayer "schedule." If you're going to adhere to your own person prayer schedule which demands some sort of ritual then make your travel arrangements so that your personal schedule doesn't affect other people. If you can't make your travel schedule to avoid such conflicts then keep your prayers (whatever religion you happen to practice) to yourself or don't fly.

Heck, I've been on a couple of flights where I did a LOT of praying, but no one on the flight knew I was praying. I prayed silently in my seat and disturbed no one. I wasn't in a church, temple or mosque where everyone there shared my beliefs or practices - I was in an airplane with a whole bunch of other people.

Maybe I'm just weird, but I just think that a person needs to consider everyone around them when they are engaging in a PUBLIC practice of their personal religious beliefs.

[micfranklin]

It's called controlling an unruly passenger through non-lethal means. I'm guessing that you don't own a firearm.

I don't recall praying being unruly and I know for a fact tazering would be overkill. And like El said that depends on if he was delaying the flight, in which case it was still unnecesary.

[Easy90]

Let's say the aircraft had a passenger capacity of 135. Now let's say that every one of them wanted two or three minutes to get up out of their seats as it is boarding...and walk to the back of the aircraft, pull out some religious book, and begin their "prayers." Apparently that would be cool with some of you dorks (who must never fly anywhere.)

Nah. My money is on the bet that he knew full well he would get in a fray with the flight attendant, and has his lawyer on speed-dial. According to the info...he got up out of his assigned seat during boarding, and ignored the crew member telling him to return...and refused to co-operate with them...and was escorted off the plane. Good work crew! He could have said his prayers during the hour long time he had to await boarding...

Here's an example of just how stupid people can get on airplanes...taken from my last flight just a week or so ago:

The (totally packed) aircraft is en route at altitude....about an hour from destination, when an elderly lady about mid-ship...has a medical problem. They ask over the intercom if there is any medical professional on board. Two doctors go up and they assist with her while the aircraft descends to land. All in flight service stops, as the aisle is blocked, and they have oxygen and stuff out for the lady. It's apparently a serious problem.

After touchdown and taxi to the ramp, the crew asked that passengers remain seated a couple of extra minutes until medics can come on board and remove the woman....(meaning a delay of maybe five minutes.) Everyone complies and sits quietly except ONE jerk...right across the aisle from the sick passenger and attending Dr's.

He stands up, opens the overhead bin, and yanks his suitcase out, pulling it down on top of these people...and stands there in their way as if he is about to crawl over them until finally a crew member comes down the aisle and tells him to sit the fuck back down and stay out of the way! He threw an attitude, and was more of a disturbance than the medical problem....and everyone else on the airplane was ready to lynch the bastard!....

On an airplane like that, the crew is empowered to subdue, remove, or otherwise detain in restraints any passenger they deem is interfering with the operation of their aircraft. When they tell you to do something, it carries the force of law. Some people are just too stupid to understand this, too self-centered to accept it, or have other agendas they think are more important than everyone else's...which is to safely get transported somewhere...and they need to NOT be on the aircraft.

[Truth_and_Power]

Sorry, El.......I have to laugh at this, considering how flights are delayed and passengers sitting on airplanes going nowhere for hours.......what's 2 minutes?

Could he have done it before or after? I suppose........but I wasn't there, I would imagine he thought he had time......I mean 2 minutes? Hell, the flight attendent tried to talk to him while he was in the middle of praying....so what's that a minute to a minute and a half she had to wait?

Delays in the airline system are like snowballs. One flight is late, now several other flights are held a few minutes while passengers with short layovers get across the airport, plus the plane is a bit late arriving so the next leg of its flight is also delayed.. so in just one step that's potentially 3-10 other planes that are equally delayed. Why couldn't he pray in his seat or before he got on the plane? Is there a traditional jewish flying prayer or something?

[jafar00]

I always try and get a flight with a few stops in between, or at the right time so that I'm able to pray on time in an airport rather than on the plane. I also choose an airline like Qatar, Emirates or EgyptAir who are more open to allowing me and perhaps a few others 2 minutes to perform the shortened prayers of a traveling Muslim in an aisle or in the Galley section at a convenient time should the duration of the flight span the time for 2 or more prayers.
It is ALWAYS a good idea to ask permission from the staff in the aircraft well in advance to have a few minutes for prayer at some time during the flight.

[Easy90]

You can't pray while sitting in your assigned seat? Or does Allah require a specific ritual?

[apdst]

I don't recall praying being unruly

Praying isn't, refusing to sit in your assigned seat, is.

[micfranklin]

You can't pray while sitting in your assigned seat? Or does Allah require a specific ritual?

The guy who was praying was Jewish actually.

[Saigio]

Mic, from what I read, the plane was getting ready to take off, and this guy got out of his seat to move to the back of the plane to pray.
That is ignoring safety rules. He could have gotten seriously hurt, and possibly hurt others in the process. It was a smart decision to remove him. Safety rules and regulations are there for a reason.

[Easy90]

The guy who was praying was Jewish actually.

I was commenting on Jafar00's post, actually.

[Trish]

I always try and get a flight with a few stops in between, or at the right time so that I'm able to pray on time in an airport rather than on the plane. I also choose an airline like Qatar, Emirates or EgyptAir who are more open to allowing me and perhaps a few others 2 minutes to perform the shortened prayers of a traveling Muslim in an aisle or in the Galley section at a convenient time should the duration of the flight span the time for 2 or more prayers.
It is ALWAYS a good idea to ask permission from the staff in the aircraft well in advance to have a few minutes for prayer at some time during the flight.


Now that is a responsible, mature, and thoughtful way to handle things! If every traveler handled things this way I would be willing to bet there would be far fewer problems!

[PatrickHenry]

Passenger aircraft are a unique institution.

They are not democracies.

The Captain is the vessel's autocrat and his orders are not subject to passenger "reinterpretation."

Passengers who disagree should be removed with dignity and as much restraint as possible.

But their momentary disagreement with the long-established rules of civilian transport will not change that culture.

It was created out of necessity.

This passenger was not authorized to do what he did and he has no recourse.

Fundamentalist religious people should travel by auto.

[brien]

What PH has written is the gospel truth(no pun intended) with regard to the airlines. They have the discretion to remove the fellow or let him stay. If the crew wants to everyone to "fly the friendly skies" that day, they leave him alone. If not they have him removed or arrested upon the termination of the flight.

Don't argue with them b/c you will lose and they will win everytime. I remember once they refused to board my son b/c they thought he had consumed too much alochol. Made him wait until the next day before boarding him... Couldn't do a damn thing about it but pay the hotel bill and fly the next day. Ces't la vie...

[Truth_and_Power]

Passenger aircraft are a unique institution.


I believe ships that float, rather than fly, have the same rules.

[PatrickHenry]

I believe ships that float, rather than fly, have the same rules.Maybe the word "unique" was a bit hyperbolic...

[Easy90]

"Fundamentalist religious people should travel by auto." PH

How about a horse and buggy?

[PatrickHenry]

"Fundamentalist religious people should travel by auto." PH

How about a horse and buggy?Heh. It might suit his costume! :dork:

[jafar00]

You can't pray while sitting in your assigned seat? Or does Allah require a specific ritual?

You cannot pray while sitting unless sickness prevents you from standing.

Here is a description of how to pray http://islam1.org/how_to_pray/salah.htm

[SouthernLadyGA]

Why could he not have prayed sitting in his seat with the belt buckled....or before he boarded the plane???

[jafar00]

Why could he not have prayed sitting in his seat with the belt buckled....or before he boarded the plane???

I don't know. Are there any Jews around here that know why he chose that particular time to stand up and pray?
I know as a Muslim we can make a simple supplication to God for a safe journey while sitting no problem. Christians can do the same.

[Buck Laser]

I don't know. Are there any Jews around here that know why he chose that particular time to stand up and pray?
I know as a Muslim we can make a simple supplication to God for a safe journey while sitting no problem. Christians can do the same.
I suspect that may be one of the reasons God called his people "stiff-necked" in the Old Testament. I know a few people who are just stubborn enough to insist on making their religious observation in their own way. And quite a few of them are Christians. I wouldn't be too surprised if a few Muslims did the same thing. I think it's probably a matter of personal behavior rather than religious behavior.

Even I have been called stubborn by a mod or two here. :evil: