Dissent

[crimzonsol]

I have a problem with the world. My problem is that no one deals in reality any more. People are so dived into their subgroups that they lose sight of reality. They deal in what they want the world to be, not what it is. Lewis Black said it best; "There needs to come a time when democrats and republicans can see a piece of footage and agree on just what the fuck reality is."

Take the Iraq war, they want us to pull out, has anyone the idea of what the logistics would look like, or what would happen if the terrorists take over afterwards? What is likely to happen to that region if the US leaves?

I also have a problem with the public and media. I believe without a doubt that If we had the current media capabilities we have now, that the USA would have pulled out of the european part of WWII. People still dont understand that it is a WAR, people tend to die in wars. Ten Belagium troops died in UNAMIR, a mission in the middle of a civil war. The entire Belagium contingent withdrew. ~1.000,000 people died as result. Why is the public so unready to use a military for what it is suposed to used for, fighting? What makes the public sure that they know how to handle the control of an organistation that they barely know anything about?

I have a longer list, but I gotta go to bed, big test tomorrow.

[Elrathin]

Do you have any idea the costs of the Iraq war and continued presence there? The reality is money does not grow on trees and the results we are seeing are not worth the cost in money and lives over there now.

Have you thought about what happens ten years from now if we stay and we are seeing the same results we are now with an unstable government and continued sectarian violence? Do you think our economy can support a sustained conflict such as this?

[David]

You both have good points. Let the civilians set aside the money in the planing stages of the war, then STFU and let the military do it's job.

[Elrathin]

You both have good points. Let the civilians set aside the money in the planing stages of the war, then STFU and let the military do it's job.

That's the problem though David. The money WAS set aside (vis budget) and each and every time the administration comes back and asks for more and more and more.

Also comes the point of accountability when we go to war for reasons that are found out to be false.

With Afghanistan most of America DID just let the military fight it. However, for Iraq we (And the U.N.) were told the main reason we NEED to go to war NOW was because Saddam had STOCKPILES of WMDs that would be given to terrorists. That was found to be false.

So if the main reason we went to war were false, how can people support a war when they feel the administration lied to them or cherry picked intel for it?

[David]

That's the problem though David. The money WAS set aside (vis budget) and each and every time the administration comes back and asks for more and more and more.

Also comes the point of accountability when we go to war for reasons that are found out to be false.

With Afghanistan most of America DID just let the military fight it. However, for Iraq we (And the U.N.) were told the main reason we NEED to go to war NOW was because Saddam had STOCKPILES of WMDs that would be given to terrorists. That was found to be false.

So if the main reason we went to war were false, how can people support a war when they feel the administration lied to them or cherry picked intel for it?

I think you're misunderstanding me. The gov't shouldn't be allowed to expand the war. I'm not saying Iraq was justified. Iraq was not letting the military fight and doing the opposite of shutting up.

[apdst]

Take the Iraq war, they want us to pull out, has anyone the idea of what the logistics would look like...

I have an idea: a full withdrawel that started today would take two years to complete. Towards the end, our troops would have to fight their way out, as the terrorists would only grow stronger and become emboldened.

I'm of the opinion that it would cost more lives and money to up-n-leave than it would to stay and ride things out; not to mention the morale blow our military would take.

I'm as much in favor of exiting Iraq as anyone else. Let's do it the right way, not the wrong way.

[Wndrtch]

What makes the public sure that they know how to handle the control of an organistation that they barely know anything about?

This is EXACTLY, why the Founders created a CiC for the Nation's military endeavors. You cannot run an effective war by comitee or consensus. There needs to be one guy to call the shots in order to be effective at all.

Just think how long it takes Congress to get a simple piece of legislation into law. Imagine having to go through that process, when deciding which targets to hit, or what your overall strategy should be? YIKES, we'd be speaking German and have bar-codes tatooed on our heads by now, if that was how we waged wars.

As further testimony to the brilliance of our Founders, they made the "king" an elected position, so if the Nation is not happy with what's going on, you can get rid of that leader for fresh blood in four years. It was thought at the time, that a bad leader could not ruin the Nation within four years time, so our election cycles for President was pegged at four years.

[apdst]

What makes the public sure that they know how to handle the control of an organistation that they barely know anything about?

That's why I believe that military service should be a prerequisite for presidential candidacy.

[DamnYankee]

I'm as much in favor of exiting Iraq as anyone else. Let's do it the right way, not the wrong way.

Perhaps the right way would be getting the Iraqis to become more involved in securing their country. Then we could begin a methodical pull out.

I would like us to leave as well as the next guy. But you are right, there is a right way of doing it.

[Truth_and_Power]

What we are seeing here is the logical result of a war based on lies. Everything about the "case" for the war was false. The reasons, the estimated cost, etcetcetc. The simple solution to this is to not lie about war. If you tell the truth, one of two things will happen: either the american people will back the war, or they won't. But atleast you'll know if you have the support of the american people. When you base the case for a war on lies, you end up with decieved people changing their opinions later once they find out the truth.

[apdst]

When you base the case for a war on lies, you end up with decieved people changing their opinions later once they find out the truth.

There were Libbos protesting the invasion of afghanistan, before it ever happened. The only thing that invading Iraq did, was give the Liberals a better war to protest against. If we hadn't invaded Iraq, Afghanistan would be the unjust war de jour.

This has less to do with invading Iraq and more to do with there being a Republican in The White House. Because of that fact, Liberals seriously lack credibility when they start invoking the, "Liar, liar pants on fire", argument.

[potter]

You both have good points. Let the civilians set aside the money in the planing stages of the war, then STFU and let the military do it's job.

Ah...another example of the wealthy plot and plan and devise the wars and the average people fight and pay for them.

[Osborn F. Enready]

crimzonsol said:
I have a problem with the world. My problem is that no one deals in reality any more.

Brother, ain't that the truth.

Some people have trouble with 1+1, still,...... today, in 2008.

[potter]

The real problem is there are those who make great profits off of war and they use lobbyists to create fear, justified or not, problems were there really is no problem in order to get richer. Their success is guarenteed by a good percentage of the population that believe in all their mean little hearts that hate and war are good things and that peace is for pussies...in fact they never want to see peace ever succeed, because hate is all they know and they want to make sure everyone else hates right along with them. They hate fags, they hate mexicans, they hate everyone just to hate. And they use that hatred to keep everyone divided. They ensure hate will always thrive (along with their profits) by telling lies, dividing people and keeping them divided. Sort of like Satan winning, over and over again, which is just thier cup of tea.

Everyone in the world could all reach agreements next week and everyone get along great...but those who promote war and hate now would still find a way to devise hate, we'd still have war, because it's profitable, because war makes warmongers happy, and peace is not happy to them. They are happy only when others are in misery. Such is capitalism. such are warmongers. Coincidence that 9/11 happened when Bush was dealing with a slow eceonomy? No...war was just what the american economy needed to get the war machines up and running at high profit. Who cares who gets killed, as long as the americans are making money. Who cares who gets killed as long as we keep spreading the hate.

[Osborn F. Enready]

potter said:
They are happy only when others are in misery. Such is capitalism. such are warmongers.

????!!!!!?????

What?

[potter]

Just ranting Osborn.....

Capitalism drives the war machine...get it? Gotta keep the industry running and profitable and any excuse will do.

[Truth_and_Power]

There were Libbos protesting the invasion of afghanistan, before it ever happened. The only thing that invading Iraq did, was give the Liberals a better war to protest against. If we hadn't invaded Iraq, Afghanistan would be the unjust war de jour.

This has less to do with invading Iraq and more to do with there being a Republican in The White House. Because of that fact, Liberals seriously lack credibility when they start invoking the, "Liar, liar pants on fire", argument.

None of that has anything to do with the fact that the iraq war was based upon lies. It's a pretty simple concept, and you playing 3 cup monte with third degree hearsay doesn't change that fact. Rosie O'Donnell's credibility has nothing to do with my argument.

[David]

Ah...another example of the wealthy plot and plan and devise the wars and the average people fight and pay for them.

Hardly, civilians = everyone, poor included. And the rich are too cowardly to fight, so they aren't military. It's when the gov't (read rich people) runs the war (like they are now) that what you say happens. My idea would actually stop what you described as a poor person isn't going to vote for higher taxes thus limiting funding. Limited funding means watching how far you take the war as the troops won't fight anything but a defensive war for free.

[apdst]

the troops won't fight anything but a defensive war for free.

They won't even do that.

[David]

They won't even do that.

I think you'll find people will die for free if the people you want them to kill put a gun to their kid's head.

[lily]

Take the Iraq war, they want us to pull out, has anyone the idea of what the logistics would look like, or what would happen if the terrorists take over afterwards? What is likely to happen to that region if the US leaves?

Crim.......ther terrorists are fighting us......the Sunni and Shia are fighting each other....if we pull out, the only thing that will happen is the Civil War will escaltae and us being there isn't going to make any difference.

How long can you occupy a country and force Democracy on them with a gun to their head? If they want it, then it's waaaaaay past time for them to be standing up.

I don't think any presidential candidate said they would immediately pull every single soldier out in one day...............it's time to take the training wheels off and let them ride by themselves. Bush himself said there was going to be a massive reduction in July.

[Mayberry]

I wonder why the government doesn't sell war bonds like they did in WWII. I would buy some. Those who didn't want to wouldn't have to. Seems like it might alleviate some of the defecit problem, and the concerns of those who gripe about the war's cost. Yet another gem of common sense from Mayberry! Sometimes I even amaze myself! :clapper:

[potter]

I wonder why the government doesn't sell war bonds like they did in WWII. I would buy some. Those who didn't want to wouldn't have to. Seems like it might alleviate some of the defecit problem, and the concerns of those who gripe about the war's cost. Yet another gem of common sense from Mayberry! Sometimes I even amaze myself! :clapper:

A wonderful common sense idea wasted on the likes of us..........

[apdst]

I think you'll find people will die for free if the people you want them to kill put a gun to their kid's head.

Individually, yes. Generally speaking, no. When you look at the resistance movements of modern history, they were made up of very few people.

[apdst]

How long can you occupy a country and force Democracy on them with a gun to their head?

Ask the Germans and the Japanese.

it's time to take the training wheels off and let them ride by themselves.

That's happening, everyday. Iraqi security forces are getting bigger, better and stronger as we speak. It took two hundred and thirty years to build The United States Army. I think it's asking alot for the Iraqis to do it in five years.

I wonder why the government doesn't sell war bonds like they did in WWII.

Because the government didn't have any money left in it's coffers. Selling war bonds was a last resort effort to fund the war. From mid '44 to the end of the war, The United States was fighting the war from week to week.

[Mayberry]

Because the government didn't have any money left in it's coffers. Well..... I reckon if we're borrowing from the Chi-coms, there isn't much money left in the coffers. At least not our own. A wonderful common sense idea wasted on the likes of us.......... Heh heh heh. Don't worry, I'll bring y'all around. I'm gonna run for prez in '12 since I'll be old enough then. I'll start the Common Sense Party. :worship:

[lily]

Ask the Germans and the Japanese.

I get so tired of hearing this used as an excuse......totally different wars, fought under totally different stategies, under two totally different war presidents.



That's happening, everyday. Iraqi security forces are getting bigger, better and stronger as we speak. It took two hundred and thirty years to build The United States Army. I think it's asking alot for the Iraqis to do it in five years.

For every one of our soldiers that has served his time, there should be an Iraqi soldier taking his place, not another American.:unreal:

[apdst]

totally different wars

Enlighten us, please.

For every one of our soldiers that has served his time, there should be an Iraqi soldier taking his place, not another American.

That ain't gonna happen overnight. Living in la la land can be sooooo disappointing sometimes, huh?

[firefox]

I don't think anything has fundamentally changed. People have cognitive distortions, and it is often in the interest of those in power to lie in order to maintain and/or enhance that power. This kind of thing has been happening for thousands of years.

[Sublimating]

I have a problem with the world. My problem is that no one deals in reality any more.Take the Iraq war...

How can anyone be so deluded so as to think that they have a clue what reality is with regards to this war?

We have a biased media like Fox News and MSNBC feeding us news clips that play to our own biases.
Officials with a personal stake in what and how they portray the war effort
The current Administration who is constantly telling us that everything is going pretty much as planned and releasing their strategic press points.
Then we have a bunch of leftist and right wingers guessing and speculating about whats going on...anyone who thinks they know the reality of the war has got to be making it up as they go along.

[potter]

Heh heh heh. Don't worry, I'll bring y'all around. I'm gonna run for prez in '12 since I'll be old enough then. I'll start the Common Sense Party. :worship:

You think the people can handle the shock?

BTW...where are you getting those emoticons? And why can't we get any writing tools?

[Mayberry]

BTW...where are you getting those emoticons? From the smilies in the reply box. You gotta use the full reply, not the quick reply. Also, after the software change I had to select "advanced" reply or something like that on my settings page. You think the people can handle the shock?
I dunno, common sense seems to be a pretty radical idea nowadays.... It'll take some doing!

[potter]

From the smilies in the reply box. You gotta use the full reply, not the quick reply. Also, after the software change I had to select "advanced" reply or something like that on my settings page. I dunno, common sense seems to be a pretty radical idea nowadays.... It'll take some doing!

Never mind...I found a setting control

[Phyxius]

That ain't gonna happen overnight. Living in la la land can be sooooo disappointing sometimes, huh?

It's been five years. It should've happened already. But you're right - it sucks to be Bush... :ecstatic:

[Go Fish]

Do you have any idea the costs of the Iraq war and continued presence there? The reality is money does not grow on trees and the results we are seeing are not worth the cost in money and lives over there now.

Have you thought about what happens ten years from now if we stay and we are seeing the same results we are now with an unstable government and continued sectarian violence? Do you think our economy can support a sustained conflict such as this?

America pays out hundreds of times more than the cost of the GWOT every day to things which don't even relate to American life. Once we quit funding things like the Russian retired military officers, I could give a shit about what the war against Islam costs. Priorities are priorities, and right now we need to beat al Qaeda and her kin.

[David]

America pays out hundreds of times more than the cost of the GWOT every day to things which don't even relate to American life. Once we quit funding things like the Russian retired military officers, I could give a shit about what the war against Islam costs. Priorities are priorities, and right now we need to beat al Qaeda and her kin.

So why are we in Iraq? If the 'Iraqi Distraction' hadn't happened, we've won the war already.

[apdst]

It's been five years. It should've happened already.

Oh, really? They should have done it record time? No good army has been built that quickly, why should the Iraqis be able to do it?

[Phyxius]

Oh, really? They should have done it record time? No good army has been built that quickly, why should the Iraqis be able to do it?

Army? No - civilian police force. And no - it should not have taken five years to do that - and certainly not the 50+ years the NeoCons are telling us it might take. The post-war occupation of Japan lasted seven years, and Japan had NO military until 2 years AFTER the last of the Allied Occupation Force left Japan. Sorry, but your argument doesn't hold water.

But it is definitely on par for what I've come to expect... :madlaugh:

[Questerr]

Ask the Germans and the Japanese.

Both countries smaller than Iraq and occupied by nearly a million troops apiece.

Oh and the US army then was smart enough to do stuff to lock down things like ammo depots and armories when they took over. There were huge ammo dumps that were left unguarded in Iraq for years.

[potter]

Army? No - civilian police force. And no - it should not have taken five years to do that - and certainly not the 50+ years the NeoCons are telling us it might take.


I think the reason it'll take eternity is because the ONLY people that want us in Iraq is the puppet Iraqi government officials installed by the US government. The people of Iraq want us out.(the ones we call terrorists for defending their country against hostile invaders) ..but, at the end of the day, what do we care what the people want...we're there for the oil.