American intervention and results - have we been doing a god job?

[Mia]

By 1953, General Eisenhower had become president of the US. Anti-communist hysteria was reaching its peak. An Iranian general offered to help in overthrow Mosaddeq, and the British were able to persuade the American CIA to go ahead with the coup in August. With very scant resources and a shoe-string operational plan, the CIA set out to remove Mosaddeq. The plan almost failed, and the Shah, never very resolute, had fled to Baghdad and had to be enticed to continue playing his part from there. The army was loyal to the Shah and Mosaddeq was overthrown and arrested. This coup earned the USA and Britain the lasting hatred of large sectors of Iranian public opinion, uniting communists, nationalists and Shi'ite clericalists behind enmity to foreign meddling. Mosaddeq became a folk hero of Iranian nationalism.

Result: Iranian hatred of the US puppet government so strong, they'd take anyone over the Shah. Enter Khomeni. Good for us? Not so much. Good for them? I dunno - don't really like either of them very much, so back to the effect for the US:

The Hostage Crisis - As though following the scripts of the French and Russian revolutions, domestic chaos and repression were followed by foreign entanglements and intervention. On November 1, 1979, Bazargan met with President Carter's national security adviser, Zbigniew Brzezinski, in Algiers. Meanwhile, the Shah, who was seriously ill with cancer, was admitted to the United States for medical treatment. Iranians feared that the Shah would use this visit to the United States to secure United States support for an attempt to overthrow the Islamic Republic. On November 1, 1979, hundreds of thousands demonstrated in Teheran, demanding extradition of the Shah. The press denounced Bazargan for meeting with a key United States official. On November 4, Iranian Islamic students stormed the US embassy, taking 66 hostages, mostly Americans. 14 were released before the end of November. Prime Minister Mehdi Bazargan resigned, and no prime minister was named to replace him.



Please, add to this thread with examples of how all our covert/overt operations have worked out for us thus far.

If possible, I'd like not to debate each one, just compile a list. Whether you think the result was good or bad. Corrections of inaccuracies which can be sourced are fine, but let's not derail into opinionating. Facts only please.

[PatrickHenry]

Here's a list of recent operations I found in Kennie Anderson's book, Land of Hypocrisy:

Iraq
Indonesia
Vietnam
Korea
Cambodia
Laos
Japan
China and Taiwan
The Philippines
Israel, Palestine, and Lebanon
Czechoslovakia
Turkey

Serbia/Kosovo
Iran
Afghanistan
Italy
Greece
Colombia
Guatemala
El Salvador
Nicaragua
Honduras
Costa Rica
Panama
Venezuela
Brazil
Ecuador
Uruguay
Chile

Peru
Mexico
Cuba
Haiti & the Dominican Republic
Grenada
Ghana
Sudan
Libya
Chad
Rwanda
Zaire/Congo
Angola
South Africa
Somalia

Here. Try this link for an excerpt: http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/8-21-2006-106226.asp

The following is a partial list of atrocities, massacres, murders, and injuries in recent history for which the United Sates is responsible:

• 3,000,000 Vietnamese murdered over the course of about 30 years of US aggression.

• Well over 300,000 Japanese were massacred when the US raided Tokyo and dropped nuclear bombs on the urban civilian areas of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

• 600,000 civilians were killed in Cambodia by US bombing between 1969 and 1975.

• Over 500,000 people were killed in Laos when America subjected civilians to "secret bombing" from 1964 to 1973, dropping over two million tons of bombs on the country. Over one fourth of the population also became refugees.

• 100,000 people were murdered in South Korea prior to the Korean War by a brutal repression supported by US forces in 1945. This includes between 30,000 and 40,000 killed during the suppression of a peasant revolt on Cheju Island.

• Up to 4,500,000 Koreans were killed from 1951 to 1953 during America’s massive slaughter in the Korean War.

• 200,000 were murdered when the Philippines were conquered by American forces. (This took place just over 100 years ago.)

• 23,000 people were slaughtered in Taiwan by US-backed, trained, equipped, and funded forces (Chiang’s Nationalist Army) during the late 1940s.

• 700,000 Indonesians (mostly landless peasants) were murdered in 1965 when the US armed and supported General Suharto.

• 200,000 were slaughtered in East Timor in 1975 by General Suharto with US support.

• 750,000 civilians were driven from their homes in East Timor by Indonesian forces in 1999 and 10,000 were killed.

• Over 1,700,000 Iraqis have been killed by US bombings and sanctions, mostly women and children.

• Over 1,000,000 lives were lost during the Iran-Iraq War in the 1980s in which the US used direct force and supported Hussein and Iraq.

• 35,000 Kurds were killed, 3,500 villages were destroyed, and between 2,000,000 and 3,000,000 became homeless as a result of aggression by Turkey with US arming and training in the 1990s.

• Over 1,000,000 people were killed in Afghanistan’s civil war from 1979 to 1992, in which the US strongly supported the Moujahedeen, the most violent and sadistic of the forces. (This also set the stage for the CIA-backed Taliban to attain power.)

• 45,000 people were killed in South Lebanon since 1982 by Israel, always armed and supported by the US

• Thousands have been killed in Palestine and millions (in both Palestine and Lebanon) were made refugees by US-backed Israel.

• Over 150,000 were killed in Greece when America advised, equipped, and financed violent interventions in the late 1940s and late 1960s.

• Over 75,000 civilians were killed and over one million refugees were created in El Salvador from 1980 to 1994 when the US intensely supported the efforts of a brutal regime and its death squads to eliminate a popular uprising.

• 40,000 civilians were killed by the US-backed National Guard in Nicaragua over the course of almost 50 years.

• 30,000 lives were killed by the US contras in Nicaragua from 1979 to 1989.

• 200,000 Guatemalans were slaughtered from 1960-1990s by a military apparatus trained, armed, funded, and assisted by America.

• Over 35,000 Colombian civilians have been killed during the US-supported Colombian war against left-wing rebels.

• More than 4,000 innocent civilians were killed in Panama during the US invasion in 1989.

• Hundreds of thousands were killed by US direct and indirect interventions in Brazil, Chile, Uruguay, Peru, and Argentina from the mid 60s through the 80s.

• 50,000 Haitians were killed when the US military destroyed a peasant uprising in 1915.

• Between 4,000 and 5,000 Haitians were killed in the early 1990s by US-established forces.

• Thousands were killed in the Dominican Republic during the 1960s when US and Dominican troops crushed a pro-Bosch rebellion.

• Over 3,000 were killed and countless others injured by US interventions in Cuba.

• Hundreds were killed or injured when the US invaded Grenada in 1983.

• Over 50,000 Somalians were killed between 1978 and 1990 by US-supported Siad Barre.

• Up to 10,000 more Somalians were killed directly by US troops during America’s "humanitarian mission" in 1993.

• In the US-supported Rwandan genocide, an estimated 800,000 people were killed in just 100 days in 1994.

• Over 300,000 were killed and 80,000 were crippled in Angola from a US-supported civil war.

• Tens of thousands were killed and up to 200,000 were tortured in Chad by Hissen Habre with US support during the 1980’s.

• Over 1,000,000 were killed during Mozambique’s civil war (1980-1992), in which the brutally violent RENAMO forces were supported by the US

• 1,500,000 were killed between 1980 and 1988 in southern Africa by the US-armed South Africa.

• Thousands of people in Pacific islands, Puerto Rico, Utah, California, Nevada, Washington, New Mexico, and various other places have been killed, infected, or harmed as a result of US weapon experiments (especially nuclear weapons and weapons using depleted uranium).

• Hundreds of civil rights activists have been beaten, tortured, framed, and killed in the US by government agencies in recent history.

• Hundreds of Black Panther supporters and American Indians were framed, beaten, or murdered by the FBI and its cohorts in the late 60’s and early 70’s.

• Over 1,200 immigrants and citizens in America (mostly of Arab decent) were detained after September 11, 2001, without evidence of law-breaking or terrorist activity.

• Thousands have been killed during America’s recent "War on Terror."

• Over 2,500 US soldiers and over 40,000 Iraqi civilians have perished since George W’s recent invasion of Iraq.

[Pookie]

I have tried hard to serve my country the best I could.
I don't believe that the "ethnic cleansing" in Bosnia and Kosovo was triggered by us.
Yet, I will admit, I see a lot of things I didn't think of, so I will start thinking and looking carefully at those links.
I need to learn before my prejudice and narrow-mindedness takes over and makes me refuse to learn.
Purrs,
Pookie

[jafar00]

Saddam was a small fry. Not even Pol Pot comes close to this.

[Elrathin]

Sorry PH, but I am going to have to say BS on this one:

The following is a partial list of atrocities, massacres, murders, and injuries in recent history for which the United Sates is responsible:

Up to 4,500,000 Koreans were killed from 1951 to 1953 during America’s massive slaughter in the Korean War.

There was an estimated 4 million casualties (And that is a big estimate) of the entire war. Seeing as how North Korea invaded South Korea, can you please tell us how the U.S. is responsible for EVERY one of those deaths?

[PostmodernProphet]

Iraq
Indonesia
Vietnam
Korea
Cambodia
Laos
Japan
China and Taiwan
The Philippines
Israel, Palestine, and Lebanon
Czechoslovakia
Turkey

Serbia/Kosovo
Iran
Afghanistan
Italy
Greece
Colombia
Guatemala
El Salvador
Nicaragua
Honduras
Costa Rica
Panama
Venezuela
Brazil
Ecuador
Uruguay
Chile

Peru
Mexico
Cuba
Haiti & the Dominican Republic
Grenada
Ghana
Sudan
Libya
Chad
Rwanda
Zaire/Congo
Angola
South Africa
Somalia

interesting list.....it seems like the majority of those are now enjoying peace and have representative governments.....and there are a few that weren't mentioned....for example I see Italy on the list, which I assume dates from WW2 but I don't see France, Spain, the Netherlands, etc......also, I see Czechoslovakia on the list and assume that dates from our resistance to the Soviet Union during the cold war, yet I don't see a dozen other Eastern European nations that could be on that list.....

[Truth_and_Power]

Blaming the deaths in these countries on the U.S. is a leap of logic. In some cases I would be inclined to agree, in others not so much. Deaths happened, we were involved. Would things have worked out better without us?

I do think many americans are sadly ignorant of our continual interference in other countries.

[micfranklin]

Up to 10,000 more Somalians were killed directly by US troops during America’s "humanitarian mission" in 1993.

I don't get why that was our business.

Over 1,200 immigrants and citizens in America (mostly of Arab decent) were detained after September 11, 2001, without evidence of law-breaking or terrorist activity.

This here was pure discrimination, scapegoating and hypocrisy all rolled into one.

[potter]

I have tried hard to serve my country the best I could.
I don't believe that the "ethnic cleansing" in Bosnia and Kosovo was triggered by us.
Yet, I will admit, I see a lot of things I didn't think of, so I will start thinking and looking carefully at those links.
I need to learn before my prejudice and narrow-mindedness takes over and makes me refuse to learn.
Purrs,
Pookie


You may need to learn Pookie, but your post shows incredible wisdom.....

[Moorington]

The following is a partial list of atrocities, massacres, murders, and injuries in recent history for which the United Sates is responsible:

• 3,000,000 Vietnamese murdered over the course of about 30 years of US aggression.

LOL, US agression? South Vietnam did not invade North Vietnam, is was undoubtably the other way around. We just stepped in to help preserve the right to self-determination.

Well over 300,000 Japanese were massacred when the US raided Tokyo and dropped nuclear bombs on the urban civilian areas of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Well over that amount died when the Japanese "Raped" Nanking (Spelling)- tit for tat, eh?

600,000 civilians were killed in Cambodia by US bombing between 1969 and 1975.

And well over that amount was killed by the same government we were trying to overthrow; there's nothing to regret there except that we didn't go all the way and toppl Pol Pot.

Over 500,000 people were killed in Laos when America subjected civilians to "secret bombing" from 1964 to 1973, dropping over two million tons of bombs on the country. Over one fourth of the population also became refugees.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. They were hardly civilians, and I call BS for that link- there's no way to know how many we killed, except by the grossly inflated numbers the government handed out.

100,000 people were murdered in South Korea prior to the Korean War by a brutal repression supported by US forces in 1945. This includes between 30,000 and 40,000 killed during the suppression of a peasant revolt on Cheju Island.

How many Korean's did we save by making sure they didn't participate in the great famines that are so famous to North Korea? Millions? Try again-

Up to 4,500,000 Koreans were killed from 1951 to 1953 during America’s massive slaughter in the Korean War.

Another hysterical 'fact' that includes Koreans killed on both sides, by all particpants, and military personal.

200,000 were murdered when the Philippines were conquered by American forces. (This took place just over 100 years ago.)

So wait, we 'conquered' the Phillipines from Spain, just to give them self-determination? Isn't the point of conquering keeping the territory?

23,000 people were slaughtered in Taiwan by US-backed, trained, equipped, and funded forces (Chiang’s Nationalist Army) during the late 1940s.

If only he had won...

700,000 Indonesians (mostly landless peasants) were murdered in 1965 when the US armed and supported General Suharto.

Another statistic that groups just about all deaths in that multi-facteded civil war as a result of our 'ally' (and I use that term in the loosest sense).

200,000 were slaughtered in East Timor in 1975 by General Suharto with US support.

Once again, another statistic that groups all deaths of that time period with our 'ally.'

Over 1,700,000 Iraqis have been killed by US bombings and sanctions, mostly women and children.

I believe the idiocy of this statistic digs its own grave.

Over 1,000,000 lives were lost during the Iran-Iraq War in the 1980s in which the US used direct force and supported Hussein and Iraq.

Used 'direct force?' I would almost quote this for lulz, but of course, you're being serious. US may have contributed infintismly to Iraq, but I doubt we changed anything at all, either way.

35,000 Kurds were killed, 3,500 villages were destroyed, and between 2,000,000 and 3,000,000 became homeless as a result of aggression by Turkey with US arming and training in the 1990s.

You mean we sold them weapons, and we trained them to fight Soviet forces- I don't think they needed any training to murder innocent Kurds, they would've done it with or without us and us arming them is more of the same. If they didn't get weapons from us, it would've been the SU.

Over 1,000,000 people were killed in Afghanistan’s civil war from 1979 to 1992, in which the US strongly supported the Moujahedeen, the most violent and sadistic of the forces. (This also set the stage for the CIA-backed Taliban to attain power.)

Wrong! The US supported the Moujahedeen in defeating the Soviets, and the second they were out of the country, was two seconds after we stopped giving anyone there any sort of money or training.

45,000 people were killed in South Lebanon since 1982 by Israel, always armed and supported by the US

Wrong!

Thousands have been killed in Palestine and millions (in both Palestine and Lebanon) were made refugees by US-backed Israel.

Wrong! Most Palestinians took to refugee camps at the behest of Arab armies, sure that they would destroy the little country.

Over 150,000 were killed in Greece when America advised, equipped, and financed violent interventions in the late 1940s and late 1960s.

Not all, or even most, by our forces- how many we saved by making sure the country didn't turn into another communist state however, is more then enough to make up for it.

Over 75,000 civilians were killed and over one million refugees were created in El Salvador from 1980 to 1994 when the US intensely supported the efforts of a brutal regime and its death squads to eliminate a popular uprising.

Grossly over-inflated- you should be ashamed of yourself.

40,000 civilians were killed by the US-backed National Guard in Nicaragua over the course of almost 50 years.


200,000 Guatemalans were slaughtered from 1960-1990s by a military apparatus trained, armed, funded, and assisted by America.

Trained? Armed? Funded? You mean we sent a few guns, a guy or two, maybe even one grand- we don't direct their policy, we just scratch their back so they can scratch ours. If we didn't, someone else would- I doubt whatever president we had at the time made Guatemala into a proxy regime.

Over 35,000 Colombian civilians have been killed during the US-supported Colombian war against left-wing rebels.

Most of which were killed by the left-wing rebels.

More than 4,000 innocent civilians were killed in Panama during the US invasion in 1989.

Grossly inflated, once again. That thing was almost bloodless.

Hundreds of thousands were killed by US direct and indirect interventions in Brazil, Chile, Uruguay, Peru, and Argentina from the mid 60s through the 80s.

Grossly inflated, once again- but this is indeed, the only aspect of American intervention that we could've done without.

50,000 Haitians were killed when the US military destroyed a peasant uprising in 1915.

How many people did those peasants kill?

Between 4,000 and 5,000 Haitians were killed in the early 1990s by US-established forces.

I believe the international community congradulated us on restoring that little island from anarchy back to government. Blame them too. Or not, because you don't really run on facts, do you?

You just go on and on, all of it is one big lie-

I worry about you, I really do, but I hope one day... Fact, not the dreamland you grew up in will find you.

[apdst]

3,000,000 Vietnamese murdered over the course of about 30 years of US aggression.

Most of them were killed by The Communists. i.e. the Commies would have killed them anyway.

600,000 civilians were killed in Cambodia by US bombing between 1969 and 1975.

I had to wait till I stopped laughing to respond to this one. First off, there was no bombing in Cambodia after 1973. Second off, what about the several million people that the Commies killed? What about the Vietnamese invasion in 1979, where another million civilians were killed?

Over 500,000 people were killed in Laos when America subjected civilians to "secret bombing" from 1964 to 1973, dropping over two million tons of bombs on the country. Over one fourth of the population also became refugees.

What about the 1.5 million Laotians that were killed by the Commies? Ever hear of The Plain of Jars?

Up to 10,000 more Somalians were killed directly by US troops during America’s "humanitarian mission" in 1993.

Um, that was The UN's, "humanitarian mission".

Over 300,000 were killed and 80,000 were crippled in Angola from a US-supported civil war.

That's one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard.

In the US-supported Rwandan genocide, an estimated 800,000 people were killed in just 100 days in 1994.

This is just rediculous. Tell me you're kidding. You don't really believe this BS.

Liberals should stick to conspiracy theories and stay away from trying to present actual facts.

[PatrickHenry]

Always with the Liberals label, apdst

Heh. "Liberals" is a term for people you don't like huh? It doesn't matter what their politics are, if you don't like what they say, they gotta be "Liberals!"

Snicker...

All the VietNam deaths didn't come from the napalm falling on villages..."The Commies, the Commies"

Only retarded flagwaving militarists believe that...

[micfranklin]

Yeah, I really don't believe the U.S. had anything to do with Rwanda, I remember Clinton saying he regretted not doing anything about that once.

[potter]

It's either Liberal, or fucking idiot. You choose. When someone posts the stupid ass shit you started this thread with, then my first instinct is that you're a screaming Liberal. Only a Liberal would post such trite.

I challeng you to educate yourself. Read "Battle Ready", by Tom Clancy, with constributions by Tony Zinni. Zinni will describe, in great detail what went wrong in Somalia and why. I dare you to read it. I know you won't, because it will destroy your cock-eyed view of history, but I dare you just the same.

Doesn't Tom Clancy write fiction?

[apdst]

Doesn't Tom Clancy write fiction?

Tom Clancy has produced several non-fiction works. I've only read, "Battle Ready". It was trully an education. You should read it.

[Saigio]

Tom Clancy has produced several non-fiction works. I've only read, "Battle Ready". It was trully an education. You should read it.

Where would I find it in a library?
Fiction?
Or non-fiction?

[PatrickHenry]

It's either Liberal, or fucking idiot. You choose. Well, fucking idiot would be a profane ad hominem and against the rules of this forum, so that one's out. But Liberal doesn't apply to my politics either, so I must assume you think it's just a general pejorative term applied to anyone you don't like. Which also makes it an ad hominem and again, you're violating the forum constitution. When someone posts the stupid ass shit you started this thread with, then my first instinct is that you're a screaming Liberal. Only a Liberal would post such trite. QED :nana:

I challeng you to educate yourself. Read "Battle Ready", by Tom Clancy, with constributions by Tony Zinni. Zinni will describe, in great detail what went wrong in Somalia and why. I dare you to read it. I know you won't, because it will destroy your cock-eyed view of history, but I dare you just the same.I have read Clancy's fiction and found it stimulating. Do you think that what Zinni says in this work of non-fiction is worthy?

For example this statement: In the lead-up to the Iraq war and its later conduct, I saw at a minimum, true dereliction, negligence, and irresponsibility, at worst, lying, incompetence and corruption.

And since we are in the book challenge mode, I challenge you to read Chalmers Johnson's recent book Nemesis and educate yourself as to why this MO of worldwide intervention by US forces will not continue for long...

[Mia]

When someone posts the stupid ass shit you started this thread with, then my first instinct is that you're a screaming Liberal. Only a Liberal would post such trite.



I'm not a liberal and I started this thread. What is liberal at taking a peek at the history of American intervention and ask 'how has that been working out for us?

I asked to hear concrete examples of American intervention and results, whether the poster felt the results were good or bad. To take a look at all of it.

If you have something to add, please do. But this off-topic ranting is not what the thread is intended for.

[micfranklin]

Well it's not like the U.S. is the good guys all the time in history, even what's going on right now proves that.

[Trish]

I'm not a liberal and I started this thread. What is liberal at taking a peek at the history of American intervention and ask 'how has that been working out for us?

I asked to hear concrete examples of American intervention and results, whether the poster felt the results were good or bad. To take a look at all of it.

If you have something to add, please do. But this off-topic ranting is not what the thread is intended for.


Mia,

I think it's going to be difficult, if not impossible, to look at all examples of American involvement around the world on a collective basis. There are different reasons and different levels of involvement that make clumping everything together impractical.

I'd say that we've been successful in some of our efforts, less successful in others, and failed miserably in still others. But I don't think we can lump everything together as if they were all the same.

For instance, we didn't enter WWII until late in the game. We were roundly criticized then and now for our late arrival. I'll have to find the exact quote, but I believe Churchill commented when the US entered the war that he knew then that the Axis powers would be defeated. And they were. The cost was high on all sides, but our intervention and involvement in WWII was crucial to Ally success.

In Vietnam we were "invited" to intervene. We complied with the request. In retrospect I don't believe we should have intervened. However, that's neither here nor there now. We did intervene. Our troops were remarkably successful - yet we lost the war at home politically. Was that a good or bad thing? I don't know. I just know that it caused a lot of wounds in many different ways.

The Iran-Contra mess is another example of our intervention that went wrong. It was a big mess from start to finish. So yeah we have plenty of examples of how we intervened and screwed things up royally.

You know we're always going to be criticized. If we don't intervene in world crisis situations, we're criticized for not doing enough soon enough. If we do intervene we're overstepping. If that intervention is a calamity it's an indictment of our imperialistic ways. If the intervention is a success, it's an example of us forcing our ways on every one else.

It's all part and parcel of being the lone remaining big dog on the block. Until another equally big dog sets up house on the block, it's all going to fall on us one way or another. We're damned if we do, we're damned if we don't - and that's just the way it is.

[apdst]

yet we lost the war at home politically. Was that a good or bad thing?

It's a bad thing. There will always be dissenters in any war. Vietnam proved to those dissenters that if they drag the war onto the political stage, they can be highly successful at undermining the war effort. It's happening again with Afghanistan and Iraq.

[apdst]

That comment is nearly four years old. I wonder would General Zinni would say, now.

[PatrickHenry]

That comment is nearly four years old. I wonder would General Zinni would say, now.

You mean this?
In the lead-up to the Iraq war and its later conduct, I saw at a minimum, true dereliction, negligence, and irresponsibility, at worst, lying, incompetence and corruption.

Is there evidence Zinni has changed his mind?

Or do you acknowledge that Gen. Zinni is limited in his views of events by space and time?

In that case, perhaps my own views have as much validity as his, so why refer to him at all?

Heh.

[apdst]

In that case, perhaps my own views have as much validity as his, so why refer to him at all?

He has over forty years of experience that you don't have.

Besides all that, I was referring to his experience with events in Somalia, not Iraq. He was on the ground in Somalia, not Iraq.

[PatrickHenry]

So...you want to confine respect of Zinni's views to the Somalia operation

and restrict them elsewhere as invalid?

[apdst]

So...you want to confine respect of Zinni's views to the Somalia operation

That is the reason I mentioned him. You said that Somalia was an American operation. Your claim was erroneous. I pointed out that you should read Clancy's book and check out Zinni's first hand experience in Somalia and it would educate you as to what really happened.

[Osborn F. Enready]

To the OP question, are we doing a good job?

Short answer:
NO!

[Truth_and_Power]

To the OP question, are we doing a good job?

Short answer:
NO!

If we were doing a good job, mexico would be prosperous, and all of south america would be a democracy.

[Phyxius]

What is liberal at taking a peek at the history of American intervention and ask 'how has that been working out for us?

The fact that it actually requires one to use the frontal lobes of their brain? :madlaugh: