What if we hadn't invaded Iraq?

[Sublimating]

What if we hadn't invaded Iraq?...OK, Saddam would still be in power, America would be untold billions richer, some eighty to one hundred thousand Iraqis would still be alive (maybe) and, the thing I think about a lot...over four thousand American men and women would be alive, able to see their families, able to go home, still thousands more paralyzed and disabled would be able to walk or hold their children. There's a lot to say here; for lack of time and with my obvious anti-war bias I'm probably missing quite a bit. So... would America be in grave danger, would there have been another 9-11, would it be business as usual? add up the pros and cons and tell me, what if we hadn't invaded Iraq?

Your thoughts and opinions appreciated.

[Drocket]

Probably the most important different, aside from "Middle East teetering on the brink of outright calamity" thing, would be that Afghanistan would most likely be a secure and democratic country, instead of being on the verge of being recaptured by the Taliban. Osama bin Laden would likely have been captured/killed, making America safer. Without the fear and uncertainty caused by the invasion of Iraq, the hardliners currently controlling Iran would have far less power and influence, as prior to the invasion, more moderate groups had been gaining power rapidly in the country. Hamas wouldn't made such massive massive political gains in Palestine, resulting in a safer Israel and more stable Middle-East.

On the downside, Dick Cheney's stock portfolio wouldn't be worth nearly as much.

[Phyxius]

Grabbing my popcorn and waiting to see what our resident Reich-wingers spew on this thread... http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/Hasatude5150/devil-smiley-045.gif

[PostmodernProphet]

crystal ball time?.....who knows.....I expect that the UN inspections would have ended long ago......Saddam, encouraged by his success would have at least begun to replace his military power.....having already started two wars with his neighbors, who would have been the third?.....would we be arguing ineffectively about how to prevent both Iran and Iraq from obtaining nuclear weapons?.......

[preservanation]

More ifs?
Ok...World wide devastation on a Biblical scale.
We would have been attacked 300 times here including 8 dirty bombs being detonated in NY, 4 in San Fran and 6 in Georgia.
90% of all power plants would be off line, our refineries destroyed and oil would be at $569 a barrel.
Gas would not be available for any price.
Martial law would be imposed nation wide and all travel restricted.
Bush would have been impeached for not taking out Hussein and protecting us and not seeing the obvious threat imposed by his reigime.

Thank God Bush saved us from all that.

[DamnYankee]

What if we hadn't invaded Iraq?

The angry and bitter leftist would be using another reason to denigrate the country, or military, or George Walker Bush.

[micfranklin]

Our dollar wouldn't suck, we wouldn't be in a war that couldn't be won by us, and OBL would've either been captured or at least found a clue of where he is by now.

I bet some of that money could've gone to building a fence on the Mexico-U.S. border.

[Buck Laser]

More ifs?
Ok...World wide devastation on a Biblical scale.
We would have been attacked 300 times here including 8 dirty bombs being detonated in NY, 4 in San Fran and 6 in Georgia.
90% of all power plants would be off line, our refineries destroyed and oil would be at $569 a barrel.
Gas would not be available for any price.
Martial law would be imposed nation wide and all travel restricted.
Bush would have been impeached for not taking out Hussein and protecting us and not seeing the obvious threat imposed by his reigime.

Thank God Bush saved us from all that.
Uh, how many times did Iraqi terrorists attack us BEFORE we invaded Iraq? I can't remember. :help:

[DamnYankee]

What if we hadn't invaded Iraq?

Maybe we wouldn't be paying high fuel costs for all that oil we are stealing.

[ECW]

Osama bin Laden would be in custody.

[Sublimating]

More ifs?
Ok...World wide devastation on a Biblical scale.
We would have been attacked 300 times here including 8 dirty bombs being detonated in NY, 4 in San Fran and 6 in Georgia.
90% of all power plants would be off line, our refineries destroyed and oil would be at $569 a barrel.
Gas would not be available for any price.
Martial law would be imposed nation wide and all travel restricted.
Bush would have been impeached for not taking out Hussein and protecting us and not seeing the obvious threat imposed by his reigime.

Thank God Bush saved us from all that.

Well I guess cynicism has it's place. I don't imagine that the families that have had to bury their children, husbands, etc...find much comfort in it. At least you had the decency not to pretend that Bush's oil for American lives program has been a success.

[lily]

Afghanistan would be a shining example of what a democracy in the Middle East would be. Other countries around them would want the same thing and demand it from their leaders........instead this "war" has made us more enemies and no one in the Middle East wants anything to do with our style of Democracy......oh and we wouldn't be in a recession now.

[PatrickHenry]

Afghanistan was a loser for the Russkies. It was a loser for the Brits of the 19th century. It's a loser for America and NATO. Afghanistan needs to be aided with real help, not military solutions and importing their heroin.

But Iraq is the real loser for America.

Think of what that money might have accomplished for America. Better yet, think of your kids and grandkids not being stuck with the bill for all that borrowing...

Think of the families of thousands of shattered and dead soldiers having a good time with their loved ones instead of struggling with VA hospitals and graveyards.

Think of actually buying Iraqi oil, forcing down OPECs's greed to levels that create affordable gasoline.

Think of Bush actually having some honor and some character...nah, that's too hard to imagine...

Imagine the nation remaining on the upward economic track established before BushCo took office...

[preservanation]

I get the impression that some on the left would would have supported the invasion if only tens of thousands of our troops had been slaughtered by gas and nukes as we marched into Baghdad.

NA

[davo]

Afghanistan was a loser for the Russkies. It was a loser for the Brits of the 19th century. It's a loser for America and NATO. Afghanistan needs to be aided with real help, not military solutions and importing their heroin.

But Iraq is the real loser for America.

Think of what that money might have accomplished for America. Better yet, think of your kids and grandkids not being stuck with the bill for all that borrowing...

Think of the families of thousands of shattered and dead soldiers having a good time with their loved ones instead of struggling with VA hospitals and graveyards.

Think of actually buying Iraqi oil, forcing down OPECs's greed to levels that create affordable gasoline.

Think of Bush actually having some honor and some character...nah, that's too hard to imagine...

Imagine the nation remaining on the upward economic track established before BushCo took office...

Come to think of it, hubris would have to be the #1 reason why the Iraq invasion decision was made. The #2 reason would be corporate Kleptocracy (defence contractors, big oil, the Fed system) and the #3 reason the Israel lobby.

You're definitely right the Arabs have a long history of successfully waging a guerrilla war campaign against much stronger imperial powers. The Ottomans were driven out of the Middle East, the British and the Russians defeated in Afghanistan, the British losing Egypt, the Israeli's and US being driven from Lebanon. Now the US is facing the same situation in Iraq. The military itself won't be defeated, but it will come a time where it's simply too expensive to stay for any good reason, both in human and economic terms.

Also with the current situation, if the US hadn't invaded Iraq right now, they could be cutting deals with Saddam as a means of bargaining with Iran over its nuclear program. Unfortunately some idiot decided to overthrow him.

[micfranklin]

I think you're forgetting that if we hadn't invaded, we wouldn't be having this discussion about what would happen if:jammin:

[apdst]

Saddam would have obtained more combat power, cutting a deal with Syria and Iran to sit it out while he pushed east through Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia would have negotiated a peace deal, that allowed Saddam to annex Kuwait. After that, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Jordon and Saudi Arabia would form a coalition and attack Israel. Since most countries around The World are lilly livered, weak kneed candy asses, The United States and Britain would have been the only ones to lift a finger. The casualties on both sides would be horrific. We would see the largest armored battle in the history of The World happen in Saudi Arabia.

Israel, would experience some initial panic and want to immediately fly some nukes. After being threatened with an American and British retirement from the campaing, the Israelis back down from the nuclear option and agree to rely on American and British strategic air power to pound the ME Pact into dust. American and British bombers would carpet bomb Ryadh, Tehran, Baghdad, Danmascus, as well as tactical targets in The Gaza Strip and on The West Bank. The Pelstinian Authority would cease to exist, forever. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians would be killed in the fighting.

Egypt, Oman, Yemen, UAE and Lebanon wouldn't commit troops, initailly, but after seeing some initial success and being pressured by very optimistic radical factions that exist in all those countries, their governments would have no choice but to send combat units to support the Mid-East Pact in it's attempt. Their actions would bring about the leveling of Cairo, Muscat and Abu Dahbi. The bombings would throw tose three nations into such caos, they would no longer be able to sustain combat forces in theater and would be forced to withdraw to lick their wounds and take care of the caos on the homefront.

Turkey, knowing which side it's bread is buttered on would pressure the northern border of Syria, forcing Syria into fighitng on two fronts, drawing troops away from The Israeli Front. With the assistance of American strategic forces, the Syrian Army would become sandwiched uin between The Turks and The Allies, soon after becoming combat ineffective and withdrawing from the war, permanently.

Allied forces would see casualties of over 100,000. ME forces would see casualties into the millions, along with 20+million civilian casualties. After the war, a famine would grip the ME and last for several years, killing several million more civilians.

[Drocket]

After that, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Jordon and Saudi Arabia would form a coalition

You forgot the part where Hitler rises from the dead to lead them. It is, after all, just as likely.

[apdst]

You forgot the part where Hitler rises from the dead to lead them. It is, after all, just as likely.

My scenario is far more likely than Hitler rising from the dead.

Let us not pretend that that same scenario, on a smaller scale has already happened four times in The Mid-East.

[Elrathin]

My scenario is far more likely than Hitler rising from the dead.

Hardly, we had Iraq isolated, surrounded, and no fly zones, they were not able to do ANYTHING major.

The most likely scenario is that we wouldn't be in the terrible economic situation we are in now had we not invaded and Afghanistan would be a democracy since we would be putting the majority of efforts there.

That situation is more likely than the one you played out.

[apdst]

Hardly, we had Iraq isolated, surrounded, and no fly zones, they were not able to do ANYTHING major.

Until he developed the AAA capabilities to create an antiaircraft umbrella over what used to be the no-fly zones. At which time, UN peace keepers would be almost blinded as to the situation on the ground, in Iraq. It would give Saddam the oppurtunity to slowly mass his forces on the border with Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. We would have satelites, but you know as well as I do how easy it is to hide from snoop-n-poop birds.

[quote]The most likely scenario is that we wouldn't be in the terrible economic situation we are in now had we not invaded quote]

Bubbles always burst. The current mild recession has nothing to do with Iraq.

[Elrathin]

Until he developed the AAA capabilities to create an antiaircraft umbrella over what used to be the no-fly zones.

Which when lit up, would be taken out immediately. Again, your scenario is HIGHLY unlikely.

[apdst]

Which when lit up, would be taken out immediately

Yeah, when lit up.

Again, your scenario is HIGHLY unlikely.

It was highly unlikely that Hitler would launch a winter campaign in 1944, too.

[potter]

What if we hadn't invaded Iraq?

The angry and bitter leftist would be using another reason to denigrate the country, or military, or George Walker Bush.

For heaven's sake...give it a rest already.....

[Scribbler1]

Until he developed the AAA capabilities to create an antiaircraft umbrella over what used to be the no-fly zones.Which would be immediately destroyed before it was built, just like their radar installations were destroyed the minute they turned them ON.
We were already THERE and we kept Hussein from doing much of anything. Unless of course, Bush was too blind to see them building anything.
As with the WMD, he kept seeing things that weren't there, so it follows that he WOULDN'T see things that WERE there. At which time, UN peace keepers would be almost blinded as to the situation on the ground, in Iraq. It would give Saddam the oppurtunity to slowly mass his forces on the border with Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. We would have satelites, but you know as well as I do how easy it is to hide from snoop-n-poop birds.They were on the ground, but we were in the air, and I don't mean just satellites.

[Elrathin]

It was highly unlikely that Hitler would launch a winter campaign in 1944, too.

Iraq was in noway in the same condition Germany was. We had pounded and isolated Iraq to the point they couldn't do anything major.

[Elrathin]

Yeah, when lit up.


And you think we wouldn't have detected anything BEFORE that?

[apdst]

You boys just don't get it, do you? We were enforcing a UN established no-fly zone. Not a no-tank zone, or a no-massed troops zone, or a no-AAA zone, or no-anything else zone.

US aircraft were engaged by Iraqi SAM's and the ROE's said that our aircraft couldn't engage the SAM sites. The aircraft that were patrolling the no-fly zones were under UN control. Without authorization from the UN commanders, those aircraft couldn't engage ground targets.

Bush invaded Iraq to stop Saddam's WMD program and we see how the Libbos reacted to that. I find it hard to imagine that any of you would support invading Iraq for any other reason.

[Elrathin]

You boys just don't get it, do you? We were enforcing a UN established no-fly zone. Not a no-tank zone, or a no-massed troops zone, or a no-AAA zone, or no-anything else zone.

We wouldn't let Saddam mass tanks near a border.


US aircraft were engaged by Iraqi SAM's and the ROE's said that our aircraft couldn't engage the SAM sites. The aircraft that were patrolling the no-fly zones were under UN control. Without authorization from the UN commanders, those aircraft couldn't engage ground targets.

Then we would with UN approval.


Bush invaded Iraq to stop Saddam's WMD program and we see how the Libbos reacted to that. I find it hard to imagine that any of you would support invading Iraq for any other reason.

The main reason sold to the senate and the U.N. was that Iraq had STOCKPILES of WMDs that they would sell to terrorists. Without that, I am willing to bet no approval would have been given.

[apdst]

We wouldn't let Saddam mass tanks near a border.

WE wouldn't have any say so. It would be a decision for the United Nations command. We know what kind success record The UN has.

Then we would with UN approval.

IF we got UN approval. We already know whose side The UN is on.

The main reason sold to the senate and the U.N. was that Iraq had STOCKPILES of WMDs that they would sell to terrorists. Without that, I am willing to bet no approval would have been given.

Exactly right and we certainly wouldn;t have been authorized to invade based on spy-sat photos showing too many Iraqi tanks on their western border.

[PatrickHenry]

You boys just don't get it, do you? We were enforcing a UN established no-fly zone. Not a no-tank zone, or a no-massed troops zone, or a no-AAA zone, or no-anything else zone.

US aircraft were engaged by Iraqi SAM's and the ROE's said that our aircraft couldn't engage the SAM sites. The aircraft that were patrolling the no-fly zones were under UN control. Without authorization from the UN commanders, those aircraft couldn't engage ground targets.
Heh. I think you need to check your facts before announcing such foolishness.

Makes a member look ignorant when it's so easy to see he's wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_no-fly_zones
The Iraqi no-fly zones are two separate no-fly zones (NFZs), and were proclaimed by the United States, United Kingdom and France after the Gulf War of 1991 to protect humanitarian operations in northern Iraq and Shiite Muslims in the south. Iraqi aircraft were forbidden from flying inside the zones. The policy was enforced by US, UK and French aircraft patrols until France withdrew in 1998. While the enforcing powers had cited United Nations Security Council Resolution 688 as authorising the operations, the resolution contains no such authorization. The Secretary-General of the UN at the time the resolution was passed, Boutros Boutros-Ghali called the no-fly zones "illegal" in a later interview with John Pilger

[Deadshot]

The Neo-Cons do not like facts. Hence the popularity of shows like Limbaugh's and O'Reilly's. Facts just get in their way.

[apdst]

Heh. I think you need to check your facts before announcing such foolishness.

This from the guy who said that The United States supported the civil war in Rwanda?

[PatrickHenry]

This from the guy who said that The United States supported the civil war in Rwanda?Red herring...

Get nailed on the facts, apdst?

Just pull a sleight of hand...

[apdst]

Oh, wow! You got me! Once! In a fictional, "what if", thread at that. Good job, Pat.

[Elrathin]

The Neo-Cons do not like facts. Hence the popularity of shows like Limbaugh's and O'Reilly's. Facts just get in their way.

Deadshot, I am in no way agreeing with the philosophy of some on the right's stance on war, but I am not going to sit here and say that the list PH provided is without flaws. I pointed out one I am VERY familiar with and that is the Korean War.

That part of the list painted the U.S. as the sole reason all those casualties happen which is absurd.

[moses2792796]

The United States will continue to force its way of life upon all other peoples and nations until its destruction. It is an inevitability that seems impossible to reverse at this point. One only has to look at the amount of westernisation that has occured in eastern countries over the past 100 years. It seems unlikely that they will allow Tradition to remain anywhere but in ther most isolated regions. If they had not invaded Iraq they would have gradually forced their influence upon the middle-east more subtly (which no doubt would have yielded a better result, at least in the short term). It is most unfortunate that after westernising the far east (yes China too), that these hypocritical imperialists have moved onto the Islamic world, which, it would seem, is able to offer only a small resistance. The Jihadists are fighting a losing battle.

[bishop]

What if we hadn't invaded Iraq?...OK, Saddam would still be in power, America would be untold billions richer, some eighty to one hundred thousand Iraqis would still be alive (maybe) and, the thing I think about a lot...over four thousand American men and women would be alive, able to see their families, able to go home, still thousands more paralyzed and disabled would be able to walk or hold their children. There's a lot to say here; for lack of time and with my obvious anti-war bias I'm probably missing quite a bit. So... would America be in grave danger, would there have been another 9-11, would it be business as usual? add up the pros and cons and tell me, what if we hadn't invaded Iraq?

Your thoughts and opinions appreciated.

difficult to answer the "what if", although you rightly point out some of the bad consequences of the war. if i were to add - now al qaeda has a new training ground, now iran is much more powerful than they previously were, and now stability in the middle east is much more tenuous.

we were never truly at risk from iraq to begin with - not to mention that before bush chose to go to war, we had the entire country surrounded on its borders, strictly enforced the no-fly zones AND had an extremely intrusive inspection regime on the ground. if people still don't think that all of that sufficiently contained this so-called "threat", then i think someone should hand them a cup of meds..

[Tessy]

What if we hadn't invaded Iraq?...OK, Saddam would still be in power,

Doubtful! If we weren't such control-freaks in our foreign policies we
probably would NOT have told Arabia not to take the sucker out and
they would have taken care of business already - actually on the same
day he rolled on Kuwait. We don't have to and didn't have to fight other
people's battles. Instead we told Saddam to take Kuwait and told the
Saudis not to interfere. And this is the mess we're in for that. I think
we wanted to be in this mess - nothing else makes sense.



America would be untold billions richer, some eighty to one hundred
thousand Iraqis would still be alive (maybe) and, the thing I think about
a lot...over four thousand American men and women would be alive, able
to see their families, able to go home, still thousands more paralyzed and
disabled would be able to walk or hold their children.

Yup, and we probably wouldn't have defined terrorism to include you
and I. As it is now you have officially identified yourself as a terrorist by
making this post by the standards set in writing by our security agencies.
Another thing we would NOT be seeing is the coming food shortages -
which may or may not be terribly severe!



There's a lot to say here; for lack of time and with my obvious anti-war
bias I'm probably missing quite a bit. So... would America be in grave
danger, would there have been another 9-11, would it be business as
usual? add up the pros and cons and tell me, what if we hadn't invaded
Iraq?

Well, since there were ZERO terrorists in Iraq then and there's just about
ZERO in Iraq now I don't see how our actions there have made a direct
impact. I think that HAVE HAD an indirect impact though. The entire Arabic
world just watched us pull a complete Hitler on their precious holy ground.
I bet that pissed a few people off. Enough to become terrorists? I dunno.
I hope not but the chances for it are now much greater!



Your thoughts and opinions appreciated.

Kill the world banks, get the federal reserve out of our country, stop the
BS global warming con game out of our news, put the Rothschilds and the
Rockerefellers in prison where they belong, issue a seise and desist order
to all GM institutions and remove the NAFTA, TAFTA, and other BULLSH1T
regulations and allow farmers to farm. Do all that and we can head off all
or most of the hard times that are coming!

Yeah, I know, wishful thinking...

[apdst]

The Neo-Cons do not like facts. Hence the popularity of shows like Limbaugh's and O'Reilly's. Facts just get in their way.

I guess you're a big Keith "I don't know the difference between a security contractor and a US soldier" Olberman?

[Pats&Sox]

The most likely scenario is that we wouldn't be in the terrible economic situation we are in now had we not invaded quote]

Bubbles always burst. The current mild recession has nothing to do with Iraq.

Holy crap you were serious with that hypothetical?
:shock:

[Troubadour]

What if we hadn't invaded Iraq?...OK, Saddam would still be in power

Or maybe not.


America would be untold billions richer


Well over a trillion.


some eighty to one hundred thousand Iraqis would still be alive


More like 500k to one million. The deaths from the chaos unleashed by the invasion and occupation far outweigh those caused directly by Bush regime forces.


over four thousand American men and women would be alive, able to see their families, able to go home, still thousands more paralyzed and disabled would be able to walk or hold their children.

But surely there is no greater honor than to die in service to the Emperor?


So... would America be in grave danger, would there have been another 9-11, would it be business as usual? add up the pros and cons and tell me, what if we hadn't invaded Iraq?

Your thoughts and opinions appreciated.

Republicans couldn't have used it as a distraction from the economy in 2002 or 2004, so they would have lost, meaning America would be well on its to recovery by now. As for terrorist attacks, the single greatest motivator for plots against this country would never have occurred, but common-sense security measures would be in place to prevent the counter handfuls of al Qaeda that did exist before Bush swelled their ranks. The world, while still a little disgusted that we ever allowed a maniac like Bush into power, would have forgiven us and moved on, and its view of us would never have reached the shrill depths of revulsion or even hatred that now define the way others see us. The Gitmo gulag would have been cleared out and closed, probably some or all of the Bush regime prosecuted for the other crimes unrelated to Iraq, and there would be no totalitarian surveillance apparatus being established. There would not be, as we speak, military and White House plans to implement China-style internet censorship; the creation of federal/local Homeland Security "fusion" groups with neither federal nor local oversight (i.e., secret police), etc etc. But it's meaningless to say "what if"? If Novgorod had triumphed over Muscovy, maybe Russia would have become a forward-thinking, advanced, humanistic culture rather than the dark civilization it has been ever since. If China had industrialized in the Ming dynasty, maybe Europe would not be the root of modern global civilization. If George HW and Barbara had waited a few minutes, maybe the result of their night together would have been an intelligent, decent human being. "If ifs and buts were candy and nuts..."

[Scribbler1]

Well over a trillion.Not really. All that is BORROWED money! We wouldn't be any richer at all, just less in debt.

[piratemonkey]

More ifs?
Ok...World wide devastation on a Biblical scale.
We would have been attacked 300 times here including 8 dirty bombs being detonated in NY, 4 in San Fran and 6 in Georgia.
90% of all power plants would be off line, our refineries destroyed and oil would be at $569 a barrel.
Gas would not be available for any price.
Martial law would be imposed nation wide and all travel restricted.
Bush would have been impeached for not taking out Hussein and protecting us and not seeing the obvious threat imposed by his reigime.

Thank God Bush saved us from all that.

Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

It's really difficult to parody the US Conservative Movement right now. They are so far out there, they really are a parody of themselves...