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View Full Version : Florida may require pregnant women to pay for ultrasounds before abortion allowed


Alonzo
04-04-2008, 09:27 PM
TALLAHASSEE - The Florida House on Wednesday mounted what critics called a two-pronged assault on abortion rights, passing legislation that would require pregnant women to undergo ultrasound exams before getting abortions and effectively defining life at conception for criminal prosecutions.

Any woman seeking to terminate a pregnancy would be required to pay for an ultrasound procedure — and view the results unless she signed a waiver — before having the abortion, under a bill passed by the House largely along party lines.

The Republican-led chamber also endorsed a "fetal homicide" bill that would create a separate murder charge for anyone who caused a pregnancy to be terminated through an act of violence against a pregnant woman. It defines an "unborn child" as a fetus at any stage of development, beginning at conception.

"I can't imagine any man having a surgical procedure without prior tests," Rep. Marti Coley, R-Panama City, said during debate over the ultrasound bill. "As a woman, as a mother, I ask you to support this bill, not to invade privacy, but to ensure that all women are offered safe health care."

The House measures face an unclear future in the Senate, which in past years has killed similar measures and hasn't yet set aside time to debate the issue this year. Gov. Charlie Crist, whose signature would be required for the bills to become law, has been silent on the matter.

Democrats argued the abortion measures were little more than a government invasion into a private health matter.

"This is not about protecting the rights of women," said Rep. Joyce Cusack, D-DeLand. "This is about eroding the rights of women. And I am so disappointed we would spend this kind of time on something that is really none of our business."

The House's ultrasound requirement (HB257) would require pregnant women to pay for the scans as part of their abortion procedures. Costs for the tests can range widely, but are often a few hundred dollars, according to expert testimony.

Ultrasound scans already are required for women seeking abortions in their second and third trimesters; the bill expands the requirement to include early-term pregnancies.

The ultrasound mandate is meant to warn pregnant woman, "are you sure you want to do that?" said House Democratic Leader Dan Gelber, of Miami Beach. "Just to constantly second-guess and challenge a woman who makes what I imagine is one of the hardest and most difficult decisions a person has to make. In that sense, it's an offensive bill."

Republicans, though, said an ultrasound is necessary for a woman to make a good decision about whether to have an abortion. Supporters read letters from women who said they regretted their decisions to end their pregnancies and wished they had seen images of their fetuses.

The emotionally charged debate prompted House Speaker Marco Rubio, R- West Miami, to warn groups of grade-school children watching from the gallery of the adult content.

The ultrasound bill passed on a 70-45 vote and now goes to the Senate, where it has yet to get a committee hearing. However, the anti-abortion effort has a powerful ally in Senate Majority Leader Dan Webster, R- Winter Garden, who has sponsored a companion bill and said Wednesday he assumes it will get a floor vote before the session adjourns May 2.

Last year, the House passed a bill containing the ultrasound requirement, but it died in the Senate.

Women whose pregnancies were the result of rape, incest, domestic violence or human trafficking would be exempt from the ultrasound requirement.

If the "fetal homicide" bill passed the Senate and became law, anyone who caused a pregnancy to be terminated by assaulting or killing a woman could be prosecuted for murdering the "unborn child" — even if they didn't know the woman was pregnant.

The bill also would apply to drunken drivers, who could be charged with vehicular homicide for causing a pregnancy to be terminated in a car accident.

Under current law, a separate murder charge applies only if the fetus is considered viable, which is defined as "capable of meaningful life outside the womb through standard medical measures." That viable fetus standard is changed to "unborn child" at any stage of development.

"It elevates a fetus and an egg, frankly, to the status of an adult person," said Adrienne Kimmell, executive director of Florida's Planned Parenthood affiliates. "The purpose of this bill is to create tension with Roe vs. Wade. It's a chipping-away strategy we've seen for years now."

The bill (HB513) mirrors a federal law Congress passed in 2004 called the Unborn Victims of Violence Act. That law, though, applies only to crimes prosecuted in federal court. Many states already define life at conception for the purpose of prosecuting violence against pregnant women.

Bill sponsor Rep. Ralph Poppell, R-Vero Beach, said the fetal homicide bill is an attempt to "curb crime and save lives."

Democrats – a few of whom voted for the bill, which passed 80-36 – offered little debate against the idea.

Tallahassee Bureau Chief Linda Kleindienst contributed to this story.


http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/florida/sfl-flfabortion0403sbapr03,0,2434345.story

Mia
04-04-2008, 10:04 PM
OMG is this democracyforums/pro-abortion rally? Sheesh.

IMO you'd be doing yourself a favor to get over it, this court will overturn Roe. Start putting your focus where it can do some good - sex education!

Alonzo
04-04-2008, 10:28 PM
OMG is this democracyforums/pro-abortion rally? Sheesh.

Give me an A! Give me a B! Give me an O! Give me an R! Give me a T! Give me an I! Give me an O! Give me an N! What does that spell? ABORTION!!!!!! :lmao:

That was completely uncalled for, but I just couldn't resist.

IMO you'd be doing yourself a favor to get over it, this court will overturn Roe. Start putting your focus where it can do some good - sex education!

Well the majority of the population supports it, and it's questionable whether or not the court would overturn it. I see no reason to give in before you lose.

Buck Laser
04-04-2008, 10:32 PM
I wonder if they're gonna require them to look at pictures of aborted fetuses, too.

Mia
04-04-2008, 11:54 PM
Well the majority of the population supports it, and it's questionable whether or not the court would overturn it. I see no reason to give in before you lose.


Well, carry on then Sorry, but it's freaking annoying the way rabid 'pro-lifers' and pro abortionists interject the subject everywhere all the time.

Since the threads specifically related to it are so plentiful, I wonder if the times it's off-topic, it could stay out of whatever the thread topic actually is? :help:

Alonzo
04-05-2008, 02:39 AM
Well, if you're referring to the other thread, abortion is on topic since if she had had one, and possibly if it were more accessible, she wouldn't have been in the situation she found herself in. That's central to discussing her situation.

Besides, nothing is stopping you from posting plenty of pro life threads.

Mia
04-05-2008, 02:59 AM
I would, but I'm not really pro-life, or what is generally meant by that term. If I were referring to that thread, I would have named it. I'm making the observation it gets brought into threads where it's totally off-topic.

potter
04-05-2008, 03:22 AM
This is what you get when political parties own the judicial system. You get political party laws.

I guess if you want an abortion, leave Florida. It's kind of a nasty place anyway.....

Mia
04-05-2008, 03:29 AM
On this thread topic, I disagree with this bill. Legally, anyway. Emotionally I am for it, but that's not how things should be legislated.

I find it funny how they contradict themselves - I guess people are so f'ing stupid they can't see it.

They said it's for health reasons - why would you have a procedure without tests? (sounds reasonable, if you don't think any further, or even READ any further!)

Women whose pregnancies were the result of rape, incest, domestic violence or human trafficking would be exempt from the ultrasound requirement.

Why? Do we care less about their health than the other women? :ponder:

AnnEsthesia
04-05-2008, 03:31 AM
Maybe we should make men with erectile dysfunction watch gay porn before getting their scrips for cialis and viagra... you know, for medical reasons.

cronic
04-05-2008, 04:00 AM
Maybe we should make men with erectile dysfunction watch gay porn before getting their scrips for cialis and viagra... you know, for medical reasons.


I hope that doesn't happen to me.. but.. hey.. one never knows right?

If it does tho and thats the case.. could you double my dosage then of the Viagra.. I would definitely need it after watching something like that..lol

Then again.. its a good possibility I may just wanna sharp knife to, in order to cut my you know what off

AnnEsthesia
04-05-2008, 02:14 PM
That is ok. We will just be doing you a favor of double checking that you are straight. After all, the problem could be that you are trying to have sex with the wrong gender... you will thank us for it after as we will be stopping you from making a huge mistake that will affect the rest of your life.

1Samuel8
05-06-2008, 01:01 PM
I believe a person who wants an abortion (or anything else) should pay 100% for that abortion and a person who wants to provide abortions (or any other business) should pay 100% for the security of their business.


Well, if you're referring to the other thread, abortion is on topic since if she had had one, and possibly if it were more accessible, What do you mean by "accessible"?
Do you mean directly or indirectly tax-payer funded?



Women whose pregnancies were the result of rape, incest, domestic violence or human trafficking would be exempt from the ultrasound requirement.Why? Do we care less about their health than the other women? :ponder: It changes it from a health issue to a political issue.
Note that all of those "results" can be concatenated and just called rape.

Alonzo
05-06-2008, 02:13 PM
I believe a person who wants an abortion (or anything else) should pay 100% for that abortion and a person who wants to provide abortions (or any other business) should pay 100% for the security of their business.

So if they're being surrounded by threatening protesters then they should be left alone by police? So you advocate special rules for such clinics, rules that place doctors and civilians there at risk? Anyone else would get police protection at that point.

And it's not like abortion providers are never shot, attacked or bombed either.


What do you mean by "accessible"?
Do you mean directly or indirectly tax-payer funded?

I'm with Giuliani on this one, I don't have a problem with tax funded abortion for those who can't afford it. Especially with teens, no baby increases the chance of the mother being productive and reduces the chance of another problem 15-20 years down the line due to another kid being raised in a poor environment.

PostmodernProphet
05-06-2008, 03:31 PM
I wonder if they're gonna require them to look at pictures of aborted fetuses, too.

well, they could just show them pictures of puppies that had been thrown out of windows......:ponder:

1Samuel8
05-08-2008, 02:47 PM
So if they're being surrounded by threatening protesters then they should be left alone by police? No, I said they should pay for it and that includes the security. Therefore, they should pay for the full cost of the police or get their own security guards instead of getting all tax-payers to pay for it.

So you advocate special rules for Stop. I am not advocating special rules for anybody. I distinctly said "(or anything else)" and "(or any other business)" in my writing and you quoted it too. It should not be very difficult to understand that I am advocating universality. Sheesh.

You have an insufferable habit of misrepresenting other people's writing and it is difficult to take you seriously.

Alonzo
05-08-2008, 03:36 PM
So, samuel, if someone breaks into my house and I call the police, I should have to pay for that?

So no matter what, they have to pay? What do you do with those who have no funds or are even homeless? Simply not show up?

Mia
05-08-2008, 07:12 PM
Businesses pay taxes too - I don't understand why they don't deserve the services.

1Samuel8
05-08-2008, 09:14 PM
So, samuel, if someone breaks into my house and I call the police, I should have to pay for that? Yes.

So no matter what, they have to pay? What do you do with those who have no funds or are even homeless? Simply not show up? Well, gee, that sort of sums up what happens now! except that poor people STILL pay taxes that go to the police and the police do not show up.
Are you really that clueless as to the reality of the world around you????????
Do you really think that the poor and the homeless get equal police services????????
For a bleeding heart, you really have no idea of the plight of the downtrodden.

potter
05-08-2008, 09:20 PM
I hope that doesn't happen to me.. but.. hey.. one never knows right?

If it does tho and thats the case.. could you double my dosage then of the Viagra.. I would definitely need it after watching something like that..lol

Then again.. its a good possibility I may just wanna sharp knife to, in order to cut my you know what off


Speaking of Viagera and Cialis, anyone know where to get those two claw foot bathtubs you're supposed to keep in the yard when you have erectile disfuntion?

Alonzo
05-08-2008, 09:26 PM
Yes.

Guess that means those in financial difficulty won't be calling the police.

Well, gee, that sort of sums up what happens now! except that poor people STILL pay taxes that go to the police and the police do not show up.
Are you really that clueless as to the reality of the world around you????????
Do you really think that the poor and the homeless get equal police services????????
For a bleeding heart, you really have no idea of the plight of the downtrodden.

You talk of unequal protection as no protection, which is what will happen to many if you require them to pay.

911: What's the emergency?
Homeless Caller: Someone chasing me with a knife!
911: Ok, would you like to give me your credit card number?
Homeless caller: I don't have one!
911: Ok then, so where should we send the bill?
Homeless caller: I don't have any money to pay you!
911: [hangs up]

Or we could just send the cops out to stop the knife wielding guy, and then arrest the homeless man for not paying his debts. Or, if he has a car, repossess his car.

Or what about those who have apartments but can barely afford what they already have? Should we repossess their stuff?

Having people have to pay for police protection is really, really stupid. All it will do is make poor neighbors even more crime ridden, since so many people simply won't call the police if it means paying money they don't have.

Mia
05-08-2008, 09:27 PM
Originally Posted by Mia:

Women whose pregnancies were the result of rape, incest, domestic violence or human trafficking would be exempt from the ultrasound requirement.


Why? Do we care less about their health than the other women? :ponder:





It changes it from a health issue to a political issue.




The point is it was never a health issue - the stated reason for the ultrasound requirement is a lie, else the health of women who were raped, etc. would also be important.

Mia
05-08-2008, 09:32 PM
Yes.

Well, gee, that sort of sums up what happens now! except that poor people STILL pay taxes that go to the police and the police do not show up.



I have to agree with this part. And I can tell from personal experience, apples to apples, having lived in different sections of the same city with the same police force.

Calls from the NE section, response time 30 seconds to 3 minutes.

Calls from other seconds: 30 minutes to never.