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NDNdancer
04-03-2008, 04:29 AM
http://www.aclu.org/pdfs/safefree/yoo_army_torture_memo.pdf

There it is, thanks to the ACLU's FOIA lawsuit, we all get to see it and it's stunning callous disregard to the constitution in allowing the President virtually unlimited authority. Read it, it's pretty chilling.

http://www.aclu.org/pdfs/safefree/yoo_army_torture_memo.pdf

From the Washington Post
Memo: Laws Didn't Apply to Interrogators
Justice Dept. Official in 2003 Said President's Wartime Authority Trumped Many Statutes

By Dan Eggen and Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, April 2, 2008; A01

The Justice Department sent a legal memorandum to the Pentagon in 2003 asserting that federal laws prohibiting assault, maiming and other crimes did not apply to military interrogators who questioned al-Qaeda captives because the president's ultimate authority as commander in chief overrode such statutes.

The 81-page memo, which was declassified and released publicly yesterday, argues that poking, slapping or shoving detainees would not give rise to criminal liability. The document also appears to defend the use of mind-altering drugs that do not produce "an extreme effect" calculated to "cause a profound disruption of the senses or personality."

Although the existence of the memo has long been known, its contents had not been previously disclosed.

Nine months after it was issued, Justice Department officials told the Defense Department to stop relying on it. But its reasoning provided the legal foundation for the Defense Department's use of aggressive interrogation practices at a crucial time, as captives poured into military jails from Afghanistan and U.S. forces prepared to invade Iraq.

Sent to the Pentagon's general counsel on March 14, 2003, by John C. Yoo, then a deputy in the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel, the memo provides an expansive argument for nearly unfettered presidential power in a time of war. It contends that numerous laws and treaties forbidding torture or cruel treatment should not apply to U.S. interrogations in foreign lands because of the president's inherent wartime powers.

"If a government defendant were to harm an enemy combatant during an interrogation in a manner that might arguably violate a criminal prohibition, he would be doing so in order to prevent further attacks on the United States by the al Qaeda terrorist network," Yoo wrote. "In that case, we believe that he could argue that the executive branch's constitutional authority to protect the nation from attack justified his actions."

Interrogators who harmed a prisoner would be protected by a "national and international version of the right to self-defense," Yoo wrote. He also articulated a definition of illegal conduct in interrogations -- that it must "shock the conscience" -- that the Bush administration advocated for years.

"Whether conduct is conscience-shocking turns in part on whether it is without any justification," Yoo wrote, explaining, for example, that it would have to be inspired by malice or sadism before it could be prosecuted.

The declassified memo was sent by the Defense and Justice departments late yesterday to Democrats on Capitol Hill, including Sens. Carl M. Levin (Mich.) and Patrick J. Leahy (Vt.), who had seen the document in classified form and pushed for its release.

The document is similar, although much broader, than a notorious memo primarily written by Yoo in August 2002 that narrowly defined what constitutes illegal torture. That document was also later withdrawn.

In his 2007 book, "The Terror Presidency," Jack Goldsmith, who took over the Office of Legal Counsel after Yoo departed, writes that the two memos "stood out" for "the unusual lack of care and sobriety in their legal analysis."

The documents are among the Justice Department legal memoranda that undergirded some of the highly coercive interrogation techniques employed by the Bush administration, including extreme temperatures, head-slapping and a type of simulated drowning called waterboarding.

In 2005, amid public controversy over such methods, Congress limited Defense Department officials to interrogation methods listed in the Army's field manual, which was rewritten to forbid many of the aggressive methods. The CIA was exempted, however, and President Bush vetoed recent legislation that would have applied the same requirements to that agency.

Yoo, now a law professor at the University of California at Berkeley, defended the memo in an e-mail yesterday, saying the Justice Department altered its opinions "for appearances' sake." He said his successors "ignored the Department's long tradition in defending the President's authority in wartime."

"Far from inventing some novel interpretation of the Constitution," Yoo wrote, "our legal advice to the President, in fact, was near boilerplate."

Yoo's 2003 memo arrived amid strong Pentagon debate about which interrogation techniques should be allowed and which might lead to legal action in domestic and international courts.

After a rebellion by military lawyers, then-Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld in December 2002 suspended a list of aggressive techniques he had approved, the most extreme of which were used on a single detainee at the military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The prisoner, military investigators later would determine, was subjected to stress positions, nudity, hooding, exposure to dogs and other aggressive techniques.

Largely because of Yoo's memo, however, a Pentagon working group in April 2003 endorsed the continued use of extremely aggressive tactics. The top lawyers for each military service, who were largely excluded from the group, did not receive a final copy of Yoo's March memo and did not know about the group's final report for more than a year, officials said.

Thomas J. Romig, who was then the Army's judge advocate general, said yesterday after reading the memo that it appears to argue there are no rules in a time of war, a concept Romig found "downright offensive."

Martin S. Lederman, a former lawyer with the Office of Legal Counsel who now teaches law at Georgetown University, said the Yoo memo helped create a legal environment that allowed prisoner abuses at Abu Ghraib.

"What else could have been the source of belief in Iraq that the gloves were off and all laws could be disregarded with impunity?" Lederman asked. "It created a world in which everyone on the ground believed the laws did not apply. It was a law-free zone."

In a 2004 memo for the Navy inspector general's office, then-General Counsel Alberto J. Mora objected to the ideas that cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment could be allowed at Guantanamo and that the president's authority is virtually unlimited.

Mora wrote that he spoke with Yoo at the Pentagon on Feb. 6, 2003, and that Yoo "glibly" defended his own memo. "Asked whether the President could order the application of torture, Mr. Yoo responded, 'Yes,' " Mora wrote. Yoo denies saying that.

Staff researcher Julie Tate contributed to this report.

AnnEsthesia
04-03-2008, 01:23 PM
Don't worry. It is not like the vice president or president's office are part of the Executive Branch or anything...

apdst
04-03-2008, 05:58 PM
I don't recall The Constitution providing protection to un-uniformed enemy combatants. Did I miss that part?

Come to think of it, The United Nations and Geneva Convention don't provide protections for un-uniformed enemy combatants.

Buck Laser
04-03-2008, 06:00 PM
I don't recall The Constitution providing protection to un-uniformed enemy combatants. Did I miss that part?

Come to think of it, The United Nations and Geneva Convention don't provide protections for un-uniformed enemy combatants.

Then tell us where in the constitution the president is placed above the law. I can hardly wait for your response. :unreal:

apdst
04-03-2008, 06:06 PM
I never said that the president was above the law.

Sow me where The Constitution provides protection to un-uniformed, illegal combatants. Take your time.

Buck Laser
04-03-2008, 06:10 PM
I never said that the president was above the law.

Sow me where The Constitution provides protection to un-uniformed, illegal combatants. Take your time.

The question raised in the OP is whether or not the president is above the law, not "illegal combatants." There. That didn't take long, did it? :blah:

apdst
04-03-2008, 06:24 PM
The subtitle of the memo in the link, is about interrogating, "unlawful alien combatants outside The United States".

If the memo isn't open for discussion, then maybe it shouldn't have been included in the OP.

Wndrtch
04-03-2008, 06:42 PM
I don't recall The Constitution providing protection to un-uniformed enemy combatants. Did I miss that part?

Come to think of it, The United Nations and Geneva Convention don't provide protections for un-uniformed enemy combatants.


I love this stuff!

People worried and concerned our hands are dirty, when we have to pick up sh1t out of a sewar! Give me a break, this is war and people get killed for crying out loud! Once you decide to enter war and kill people, torture is not so bad in comparison.

potter
04-03-2008, 08:14 PM
Glad to see your so pragmatic about it. Now lets not have any more whining and gnashing of teeth over our boys being killed, or if we have another attack on US soil OK?

And everyone...PLEASE shut the hell up about 9/11....the towers were nothing but collateral damage.... :grrrr:

Wndrtch
04-03-2008, 08:33 PM
Glad to see your so pragmatic about it. Now lets not have any more whining and gnashing of teeth over our boys being killed, or if we have another attack on US soil OK?

What are you talking about? It's the Lefties making a huge deal out of our dead soldiers, because it's the only way they can get their power back. The Righties know what the stakes are, and understand that it will cost.

If the Dems get the White House, rest asured we will have another attack on our soil.

And everyone...PLEASE shut the hell up about 9/11....the towers were nothing but collateral damage.... :grrrr:


So was Pearl Harbor, if we use your logic.

potter
04-03-2008, 08:48 PM
Glad to see your so pragmatic about it. Now lets not have any more whining and gnashing of teeth over our boys being killed, or if we have another attack on US soil OK?

What are you talking about? It's the Lefties making a huge deal out of our dead soldiers, because it's the only way they can get their power back. The Righties know what the stakes are, and understand that it will cost.

If the Dems get the White House, rest asured we will have another attack on our soil.

Oh for heavens sake, enough with the unsubstantiated fearmongering already!

And you don't have to tell me the democrats are the only ones concerned about our troops...the republicans don't give a shit about them at all....even when they return injured from war...


And everyone...PLEASE shut the hell up about 9/11....the towers were nothing but collateral damage.... :grrrr:


So was Pearl Harbor, if we use your logic.



Yup..... paybacks are hell aren't they? Look at you...actin' like we're all innocent and all.....:unreal:

Wndrtch
04-03-2008, 09:18 PM
Glad to see your so pragmatic about it. Now lets not have any more whining and gnashing of teeth over our boys being killed, or if we have another attack on US soil OK?

What are you talking about? It's the Lefties making a huge deal out of our dead soldiers, because it's the only way they can get their power back. The Righties know what the stakes are, and understand that it will cost.

If the Dems get the White House, rest asured we will have another attack on our soil.

Oh for heavens sake, enough with the unsubstantiated fearmongering already!

And you don't have to tell me the democrats are the only ones concerned about our troops...the republicans don't give a sh1t about them at all....even when they return injured from war...


And everyone...PLEASE shut the hell up about 9/11....the towers were nothing but collateral damage.... :grrrr:


So was Pearl Harbor, if we use your logic.



Yup..... paybacks are hell aren't they? Look at you...actin' like we're all innocent and all.....:unreal:


Maybe I passd out that Tin Hat Award to soon. :dizzy:

NortheastCynic
04-03-2008, 10:02 PM
I don't recall The Constitution providing protection to un-uniformed enemy combatants. Did I miss that part?

Come to think of it, The United Nations and Geneva Convention don't provide protections for un-uniformed enemy combatants.
This is irrelevant. The burden of proof is on the President and his supporters to provide everyone else with proof that the Federal government has the legal authority to torture anyone under the United States Constitution. The 8th Amendment doesn't say a thing about uniforms or un-uniformed enemy combatants, it says simply that cruel and unusual punishment is illegal.

-NC

Trish
04-03-2008, 10:04 PM
Just a quick question. Has anyone read the 81 page report? If so did anyone take note of the legal opinions and SC rulings that were the basis for the opinions offered in the memo?

lily
04-04-2008, 02:13 AM
What are you talking about? It's the Lefties making a huge deal out of our dead soldiers, because it's the only way they can get their power back. The Righties know what the stakes are, and understand that it will cost.

Hmmmm........if I recall correctly it was "the lefties" that brought to the citizens the terible conditions "the righties" were having our vets live it. Also if I may say........someone has to keep track of how many dead....."the righties" want them flown in under the cover of night, photgraphers are fired if they dare to take a picture. "The righties" want to keep our dead hidden......shhhhh.........don't let anyone know how many died, they might say something........"The righites" would rather have the soldiers family shoulder all the pain....keep it queit....wouldn't want America to know the true cost of this war, and it's not in dollars that I'm talking about. It's not counting certain head wounds, not counting deaths that aren't right on the battlefield, if you don't die in combat, then you don't count...........and don't even get me started on how "the righties" love to keep secret how certain soldiers died......wouldn't want bad publicity.

If the Dems get the White House, rest asured we will have another attack on our soil.

Excellent talking point. No fact, but really who cares about facts when that fear tactic worked for so long.......well up to 2006 anyway.

Scribbler1
04-04-2008, 03:33 AM
And everyone...PLEASE shut the hell up about 9/11....the towers were nothing but collateral damage.... :grrrr:


So was Pearl Harbor, if we use your logic.
MY logic?? Why in hell did you deliberately insert MY name in a quote from Potter?

Go Fish
04-04-2008, 04:49 AM
I fully support any measures which keep our enemies from killing my family. Nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved as many lives as it took, AND it ended the war. Too bad we weren't prepared to nuke Berlin years earlier.
If you're looking for someone to crap on the tactic of drowning a terrorist under medical supervision, you won't find him here. So one had his ass beat and died in a sack? Good. We need to keep that up. I do object to dragging their corpses though the streets and hanging the remains from a bridge, however.

Elrathin
04-04-2008, 04:51 AM
I fully support any measures which keep our enemies from killing my family.


So if it meant keeping enemies from killing your family, would you say, run some planes into some buildings of the enemy if you thought it would keep your family safe?

Go Fish
04-04-2008, 05:40 AM
You're damned skippy, HomeBucketChickenWing. I'd hogtie the survivors and cut their heads off with a dull bread knife while I'm at it. I, being the insensitive dick which I am, would probably come up with something which offends their religious beliefs to the point where they dare not THINK about attacking my family, lest they lose the chance to fornicate with 72 little boys.
You really don't have a clue, do you? You hate us republicans enough to defend what the Islamic world did to our families. That's fucking reprehensible. May whatever god you pray to step on your head.

Elrathin
04-04-2008, 05:43 AM
You're damned skippy, HomeBucketChickenWing. I'd hogtie the survivors and cut their heads off with a dull bread knife while I'm at it. I, being the insensitive dick which I am, would probably come up with something which offends their religious beliefs to the point where they dare not THINK about attacking my family, lest they lose the chance to fornicate with 72 little boys.
You really don't have a clue, do you? You hate us republicans enough to defend what the Islamic world did to our families. That's f_cking reprehensible. May whatever god you pray to step on your head.


Please tell me where I was defending Radical Islam? YOU are the one that said you would use ANY MEASURES to make sure your family was safe. So I asked you a question.

Your insults show more about your character than mine.

Go Fish
04-04-2008, 06:05 AM
A road-killed woodchuck shows more of my character than that of one who has none, Puddin'.

Elrathin
04-04-2008, 06:10 AM
I'm not the one that said I would use ANY MEASURES, you did.

NortheastCynic
04-04-2008, 07:35 AM
Oy vey.

I'm guessing it wouldn't do any good to point out the fact that we're a nation of laws and that what makes us 'better' than the individuals we're fighting is precisely what makes us different from them.

Probably not, right?

-NC

Trish
04-04-2008, 12:44 PM
I'm going to ask again. Has anyone read the 81 page report behind all this excitement? To really know what "law" is being talked about I would think it was rather important to view the documentation.

Scribbler1
04-04-2008, 03:53 PM
Of COURSE we haven't read it. Why should we be any different than the President and Congress?

apdst
04-04-2008, 04:28 PM
Of COURSE we haven't read it.

So, basically, you don't know if any laws are being broken, or not?

I'm guessing it wouldn't do any good to point out the fact that we're a nation of laws and that what makes us 'better' than the individuals we're fighting is precisely what makes us different from them.

I appreciate the, "we could be like them, but they could never be like us", point of view, but at the end of the day, that and a buck-oh-five will get you a cup of coffee. We can't shoot ourselves in the foot, over principle, forever.

Trish
04-04-2008, 05:06 PM
Of COURSE we haven't read it. Why should we be any different than the President and Congress?


:) Thank you for such an honest response. I truly appreciate it!

Trish
04-04-2008, 05:35 PM
I did read the report. Well - let me clarify that. I read parts of it word for word and scanned the rest. It's REAL long and hard to get through.

I would like to point out that this document is a legal opinion that was given based on past SC rulings and legal precedents, most of which happened before Bush was even Gov. of Texas much less President. Some of these rulings and opinions go back as far as the 20's or 30's. I would also like to point out that getting a legal opinion is what people do, even ordinary people, whenever there is any question of whether something is legal or not or when an important decision is made. Since everyone is not a lawyer, much less a constitutional lawyer, it's a very important step. I would also like to point out that "the law" is a very broad field. When speaking of "above the law" we need to be clear on just what part of that broad field of law we're talking about. Because whether we like it or not, in some contexts the President, VP, Congress, judges, etc. are operating in those positions under a whole different legal field than you or I. Those individuals, IN THOSE POSITIONS, have responsibilities and powers above and beyond what you and I have. Thus, there are laws that apply to them that don't apply to us and vice-versa as well as a type of parallel law. A good example of this is the impeachment process. We can't be impeached - they can. They can't just be hauled into a civilian court, we can. They can't be sued for many things, we can be sued for just about anything.

Now before anyone gets their drawers in a knot about me being a Bush defender and not wanting to acknowledge that he does anything wrong, that's not what I'm doing. I'm not even arguing one way or another about what is and isn't torture and whether or not that's what happened in Gitmo or elsewhere. I just think that if we're going to throw around phrases like "above the law" we kinda have an idea what we're talking about is all.

Scribbler1
04-04-2008, 05:47 PM
Of COURSE we haven't read it.

So, basically, you don't know if any laws are being broken, or not?I'm just being honest. I, nor does anyone I know, just don't have the time necessary to read these things from cover to cover.

Have YOU read it, and do you know what laws are involved?

But I am aware of things like the just released memo implying that the president pretty much has the right to do almost anything in time of war.
First, I fail to see where "war powers" even apply without a declared war. We haven't declared war on Iraq, and the so-called "war on terror" is about as legitimate as the "war on poverty" inasmuch as it has no real definition nor does it have any specific enemy.
And second, even if Bush HAS such broad powers, just because he has them doesn't make it right to USE them all.

Torture has been shown to be a notoriously unreliable means of getting information. Legal or not, kidnapping people suspected of anything and spiriting them away to third-party countries for the express reason of interrogating them is just a legal dodge to get around our laws, which ought to make you suspicious right there. Wiretapping American citizens without proper authorization, even though there IS a court which could authorize it, is blatantly illegal (hence Bush's demand the Telecoms get immunity from lawsuits).

These things, and more, should raise several red flags with the American people. I don't need to spend an entire day or more just to read a document so I can argue with YOU what a lousy president your idol Bush is.

NortheastCynic
04-04-2008, 06:02 PM
I appreciate the, "we could be like them, but they could never be like us", point of view, but at the end of the day, that and a buck-oh-five will get you a cup of coffee. We can't shoot ourselves in the foot, over principle, forever.Not principle, the law, Apdst. We must follow the law.

$1.05 for coffee, more like 3.50...Friggin' Boston and its Starbucks.

-NC

apdst
04-04-2008, 06:08 PM
We must follow the law.

What to do when the law sabotages everything you're doing?

$1.05 for coffee, more like 3.50...Friggin' Boston and its Starbucks.

I was talking about 7-11...LOL

Scribbler1
04-04-2008, 06:11 PM
We must follow the law.

What to do when the law sabotages everything you're doing?You change it. You don't arrogantly IGNORE it. It's not your call to violate any laws, and if you do you deserve whatever appropriate penalty there is.


7-11? Do they actually make coffee that isn't poisonous now?

apdst
04-04-2008, 06:20 PM
You change it. You don't arrogantly IGNORE it.

So, we have to wait several years before we can properly deal with terrorist suspects? Do we really have time for that?

Buck Laser
04-04-2008, 06:39 PM
You change it. You don't arrogantly IGNORE it.

So, we have to wait several years before we can properly deal with terrorist suspects? Do we really have time for that?

Of course you could always try vigilante justice.

Scribbler1
04-04-2008, 07:12 PM
You change it. You don't arrogantly IGNORE it.

So, we have to wait several years before we can properly deal with terrorist suspects? Do we really have time for that?
Well, considering the person I'm discussing this with doesn't have a problem with imprisoning people without trial because they don't wear uniforms, it might be a good idea to wait until Congress acts.

But, and contrary to what you may think, Congress CAN act quickly on certain matters. They just don't WANT to. I suspect many laws you might favor would be based on paranoia, fear or partisan ideology. What if the situation changes in a few years?
Laws are generally PERMANENT things and to NOT deliberate on them and act on current events is idiotic. Remember "Curveball"? He was the primary excuse Bush used as a reason to invade Iraq. Of course, Curveball was a liar and even the head of the CIA European office (as well as the boss of the factory where he worked said he was a liar)said he just lied to the Germans to be allowed to stay In Germany.

You can't take back history so you ought to be damned sure you make the laws the right way the FIRST time.

So anyway, just what laws actually STOPPED Bush from doing what he wanted?

dgun
04-06-2008, 02:18 AM
So, we have to wait several years before we can properly deal with terrorist suspects? Do we really have time for that?

PLEASE!

Is it too much too ask the President and the rest of the executive branch to do their stinking job and at the same time OBEY THE CONSTITUTION.

The President of the US takes an oath of office:

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

The constitution is important. So important that it is the primary focus of the oath of office.

No reasonable person can say that George W Bush has lived up to his oath. Far from preserving, protecting and defending, he has done everything he can to minimalize and skirt around it.

There is no excuse for this. Fear and hysteria of terrorist attacks, fear of communism, fear of crime, fear of ________. Just fill in the blank. None of it is a legitimate reason to turn our back on the Constitution.

The two greatest phrases from our nation's history:

"Give me liberty or give me death!" Patrick Henry

"We have nothing to fear, but fear itself." FDR

Scribbler1
04-06-2008, 03:28 AM
Still waiting to hear what laws actually stopped Bush from doing something he wanted.

Pookie
04-06-2008, 02:42 PM
Didn't Bush say the Constitution was just a ******* piece of paper?
So, therefore, nothing was stopping him, right?