My Blood BOILS!!!!

[Trish]

This just pisses me off to no end. I'm sitting here with my teeth clenched over this. There are very few people that can make me FEEL violent, but this man does.

His wife was ill. He KNEW she was ill, and had KNOWN for years. Her doctor had WARNED both he and his wife not to have any more children. But because HE wanted more children (can't count what she wanted because he'd already been told she was mentally unstable) and HE wanted his children home-schooled, 5 children died. His wife goes to prison and then to a mental hospital (where she belongs) and he is free to divorce her, marry again, and have more children. Those children paid the ultimate price for his religious beliefs, his ex-wife will pay for the rest of hers for what she did, but he - he can go on, re-marry and father more children. What a crock of shit!

I am so thoroughly disgusted, so thoroughly angry, so thoroughly LIVID, I am beside myself!

March 31, 2008, 7:37AM
Rusty Yates, father of 5 slain children, has son

Associated Press

Rusty Yates, the father of five slain children, has a son with his new wife.

Yates on Sunday told KHOU television in Houston that his wife, Laura, recently gave birth to a "healthy boy." Further details were not immediately available.

The couple wed in March 2006.

Rusty Yates divorced Andrea Yates in March 2005.

Andrea Yates in June 2001 drowned the couple's five children at the family's Houston-area home. She was convicted of capital murder and sentenced to life in prison in 2002.

But an appeals court in 2005 overturned her conviction because of some erroneous testimony.

Andrea Yates was found innocent by reason of insanity in July 2006 and was placed in a state mental institution.

Defense attorney George Parnham told KTRK-TV that Andrea Yates is aware of her ex-husband's new child, "is at peace with the issue" and her position is that life goes on.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5661071.html

[cronic]

Am I missing something here?

I'm sorry Trish .. its a sad thing that happened.. its a tragic thing that happened..

but are you blaming this man for his ex-wifes mental illness or blaming him because she drowned all their children?

As far as him remarrying and having a son
Doesn't he have a right to move on and have a life and children if that is what he desires?

His ex-wife ( the one that murdered 5 innocent children ) even says she is at peace with it and admits life goes on..

Maybe the mental institution she is at, has actually done some good for her considering thats how she feels now?

Mental illness or not.. he didn't kill the children.. she did

Your upset at him for wanting to love her and have a family with her?

What about the fact he loved her.. wanted a family with her and stayed with her thru this mental illness?

That doesn't count for anything?

[Trish]

cronic -

This is a complicated story. But yes, I do most certainly put the majority of the "blame" for the death of those 5 children squarely on the shoulders of Rusty Yates, their father. Here's why.

Andrea Yates, the mother, had suffered severe post-partum depression after the birth of her third child. She had a 4th child and the PPD was even more severe resulting in her being placed on a strong regimen of drugs to control the disease. Both she and her husband were warned, more than once, that having a 5th child would be dangerous for her mental health. Andrea Yates was mentally ill. After her 3rd delivery she was in no shape mentally to make a responsible choice about whether or not to have children. Rusty Yates, however, did not suffer any mental illness. He had NO impediment to prohibit him from making a responsible choice about whether or not to have more children. HE decided to have more children. He impregnated his ill wife a fourth time and most importantly a fifth time KNOWING the toll it could take on his wife mentally, KNOWING that she was already ill, KNOWING that her psychiatrist had said it was dangerous. He was reckless, arrogant, and completely self-centered. HIS need to father a large family, HIS needs took precedence over the mental well-being of his wife, and ultimately the physical well-being of his children. Her illness was so severe that she could not be left alone with those children. His mother would come and spend the day at their home so that Andrea Yates could cope with homeschooling them. It was HIS decisions that placed that entire family in jeopardy. He is, in my opinion, as much responsible for the death of those 5 children as was his wife, perhaps even more so since he had no mental impairment and she did.

So no - I do NOT believe that he has a right to walk away scott free from what his selfish, arrogant and reckless behavior wrought. I do NOT believe he should be free to marry again. I do NOT believe he should ever have the right to father children again. I think he should have lost those rights when he impregnated his KNOWN mentally-ill wife that 5th time.

[Scribbler1]

He's a scumbag, straight up. I remember the story of the first wife and if I recall correctly, he was seen as a manipulative bastard who KNEW his wife was capable of something like that and never let it bother him or affect his desire for a big family.

The most obvious sign is that he knew his wife was nuts and even though he held a full-time job he had no problem with her being with the kids alone.
I think he was some kind of religious flake who wanted to "go forth and multiply" with no regard for the possible consequences.

[cronic]

I respect your feelings and opinion .. but I still have to disagree with it to a point.

It sounds like the ex husband is being blamed alittle to much here then what he deserves..
More over.. in this terrible tragedy..we talk about the the children and how much loss it was for them.. and talk of Andrea and her loss.. but I think this man has been punished terribly already in his loss..
I don't know the yates personally but I gotta believe as a father this man is deeply saddened by the death of his children.

I know we talk about mental illness and who is responsible and who shouldn't be responsible but the fact that she was supposedly mentally unstable only suggests to me that if that was the case.. maybe the doctor should not have allowed her to be around any children then..
There is a difference between mental illness and mentally unstable.
many have depression and that is mental illness...
what she has is a form of depression.
you make it almost sound like he held her down and forced her for the last 2 children..

[AnnEsthesia]

Sorry cronic, but Post Partum Depression is more than 'depression'. It is full on mental illness that can lead to psychosis if not treated appropriately.

[micfranklin]

As shit like this happen, I really feel that some people just don't deserve life.

[cronic]

Sorry cronic, but Post Partum Depression is more than 'depression'. It is full on mental illness that can lead to psychosis if not treated appropriately.


sorry Anne.. I realize its a bad thing.. but PPD is still a form of depression... its not "more" then depression
its a form of depression.

Definition of PPD:
Depression after pregnancy is called postpartum depression. After pregnancy, hormonal changes in a woman's body may trigger symptoms of depression.
During pregnancy, the amount of two female hormones, estrogen and progesterone, in a woman's body increases greatly. In the first 24 hours after childbirth, the amount of these hormones rapidly drops back down to their normal non-pregnant levels. Researchers think the fast change in hormone levels may lead to depression, just as smaller changes in hormones can affect a woman's moods before she gets her menstrual period.

its no better or worse then any other depressions..
depression is bad mmmkay... period

it was said she was mentally unstable.. if she was mentally unstable.. then how is it she could still feed herself.. dress herself.. drive a car herself..
I believe it is a mental illness yes.. it is just what it says it is.. which is one form of depression.

But it wasn't severe enough obviously to have her committed now was it?
( I mean before she murdered her 5 children )

maybe she was mentally unstable. Then does this mean she gets a pass on guilt and her ex husband has to brunt all the blame here?..

He should no longer be allowed to have a life?.. a person to love?... children?..Why punish this man with hate because of what his ex wife did... mentally sick or not

Did she have mental illness?.. yes.. ( many do ).. was she depressed due to hormone lvls changing in her body which is medically termed as PPD.. Obviously yes.
But,
I don't care to argue on PPD or how bad of depression it is.. Im sure its bad..
again,, I will agree all depression is bad.. its unhealthy.. its a terrible thing to live with.

My point Im trying to make here is
Why is this man being hated on?
Everyone wants to smear this guy and call him a scumbag and he didn't murder them kids.. she did

Blaming this man for the death of the children isn't right AnnE.. thats all I really care to debate here

[AnnEsthesia]

Except, cronic, this woman was not just suffering from the baby blues. She was suffering from postpartum psychosis which occurs if you do not correctly treat the lesser forms of the disease.

You do a disservice to the people who suffer from this to downplay it this way.

[AnnEsthesia]

She was mentally unstable, cronic. He knew it. He was told she should not get pregnant any more because of her mental issues, yet he continued to impregnate her. He did not get her the help the medical personnel begged him to get for her. He was the "sane" one. He knew better because they TOLD HIM the problems and what to do. He chose not to. So yea, he is an accomplice to the murders by the fact that he was a complete and utter useless git and he allowed it to happen.

[cronic]

You do a disservice to the people who suffer from this to downplay it this way.


hmmm.. really?
please explain to me how you see me as downplaying this mental illness?..
I said myself it was bad..
is it because I question why is this man being hated on.. is that the disservice you are referring to?.. because I an sticking up for the guy?

You see me as trying to be a disservence to the people that have this illness.. so
Tell me why you feel I am doing that AnnE..

Am i uninformed?.. was the medical site I took that definition off of false?
it is because your a woman and I am just a man asshole?

I don't appreciate it but whatever.. I'm over it already..accuse me of whatever you like AnnE...but i know its bullshit because I had nothing in my head whatsoever to discredit this illness or downplay it.

still i'd like to know how is it you think you know me so well that you accuse me of such bullsh1t.

[cronic]

She was mentally unstable, cronic. He knew it. He was told she should not get pregnant any more because of her mental issues, yet he continued to impregnate her. He did not get her the help the medical personnel begged him to get for her. He was the "sane" one. He knew better because they TOLD HIM the problems and what to do. He chose not to. So yea, he is an accomplice to the murders by the fact that he was a complete and utter useless git and he allowed it to happen.


she had nothing to do with getting pregnant?
OMG.. now I have heard it all

I'm fukin depressed AnnE... so.. if i kill someone because of it and you knew ahead of time I was depressed.. I guess you should be held responsible to aye?

You are blaming this man for her crimes..she gets a fukin pass because now she is in a mental institution and had depression.. She was ok to live her life in every other way.. but.. this is a pass.. she shouldn't be blamed for these murders.. just the sob fukin man cause he knew she was depressed

what ever happened to people being held accountable for their own actions?
nope.. fuck the man.. blame his ass for her illness

[Scribbler1]

You are blaming this man for her crimes..she gets a fukin pass because now she is in a mental institution and had depression.No one is giving her a "pass". It's just a fact of life that they put killers who are unbalanced in psych wards instead of prison. But you already knew that.. She was ok to live her life in every other way.. but.. this is a pass.. she shouldn't be blamed for these murders.. just the sob fukin man cause he knew she was depressedCalm down. It's only a discussion.
And she WAS blamed for the murders. She was tried and convicted. And you already knew that.
But the husband DOES deserve partial blame because he was TOLD by medical professionals not to get her pregnant again.what ever happened to people being held accountable for their own actions?
nope.. f_ck the man.. blame his ass for her illnessGeez! Again, she was TRIED for the murders and CONVICTED of them. Don't you think that IS being held accountable?
And unless this was a case of immaculate conception, the husband DID play a part in getting her pregnant when he was TOLD not to. Vasectomies are common these days and since he knew she was too unstable to have any children he should have had one. Or at LEAST used a rubber.

[AnnEsthesia]

Amen Scribbler. As for the rest... please show me where I am a man hater. You know, my husband would be rather amazed to learn about that.

He deserves the blame he is getting. He knew she should not get pregnant. He should have not impregnated her.

She was too mentally ill to make the decision to become pregnant or not. You do not hand a meth addict drugs and tell them to decide whether they should use it or not. You do not hand an alcoholic keys and some alcohol and tell them it will be ok for them to drink and drive if they feel they can handle it.

He was wrong to impregnate her when he was told over and over and over again that she was mentally unstable. He impregnated her TWO TIMES after he was told that and each time they said to STOP.

Why would anyone in their right mind say he has no blame here?

Oh, and here I thought that being tried and convicted was finding her guilty. Who knew that being tried and found guilty was getting a pass...

[Trish]

PPD is only a "form" of depression if you've never experienced it. If you HAVE experienced it, even when it's a mild case, you know pretty damn quick that this shit screws you up bad. When it's left untreated, or when it is made worse by REPEATED pregnancies, PPD gets worse and can become a psychosis.

A psychosis is: "1. a mental disorder characterized by symptoms, such as delusions or hallucinations, that indicate impaired contact with reality."

That's where Andrea Yates was - with a psychosis which was triggered by the results of childbirth and made worse by the birth of TWO more children. She was in NO condition to decide whether or not to have those last two children.

Rusty Yates had no depression. Rusty Yates had no psychosis. He had been told by her psychiatrist MORE THAN ONCE that for his wife additional pregnancies were not only ill-advised but were dangerous. DANGEROUS. He could have have, he SHOULD have taken steps to protect his wife. He didn't. Instead, he chose to ignore medical advice and he chose to allow his wife to become pregnant again. Yes, she was there too. But SHE was not in a condition to make such a decision responsibily. HE was. Bottom line, his focus was not on protecting his wife, nor protecting his kids.

Yeah, he was just as at fault for the death of his children as was Andrea Yates. However, she is the one in a mental institute for the rest of her life and he....well he goes to work every day, he comes home to his new wife, and now a new baby. Let's all just hope that this new wife doesn't become ill in any way because she sure can't depend upon her husband to take care of her or protect her.

[AnnEsthesia]

Well said, Trish.

[cronic]

Calm down. It's only a discussion.

No worries Scribbler1, I'm calm


Why would anyone in their right mind say he has no blame here?

I am quite sure this man has and does feel some blame. But to say that he is an accomplice to 5 murders I honestly think is a stretch AnnE.


Oh, and here I thought that being tried and convicted was finding her guilty. Who knew that being tried and found guilty was getting a pass...

Actually she was found innocent by reason of insanity the second time around, but guilty or innocent.. mental or sane... The children are still dead and she still gets to eat and breathe and laugh and cry and move on. Which is the same thing the father is doing but being condemned for. The fact that she has to do these things in an institution now rather then in the outside world is because of the danger she poses due to her mental illness and until they deem her fit to once again enter society, then and only then she will most likely be released and allowed to try and have a new life on the outside world again.
maybe she will even remarry?

Will the world have an uproar about it?.. probably yes because people can't let go of things and move on. People will even forget about her PPD and just say, she got away with murdering her 5 kids and now she is walking free... I guarantee it.. mark my words when she is released.. you will hear and see them very same statements.

I agree PPD is very bad..
I am no way downplaying the depression.
I am just upset because it seems like more emphasis is put on this man then on her or the 5 innocent lives she took.

Maybe he is a scumbag.. maybe he is a troll. Maybe he made mistakes. but what should be done with this man now?
It's been said he is an accomplice to murder of his 5 children.
ok... has the law charged him with this?..
Should the law charge this man and the doctors that knew of her condition?
Should they be put in jail?
should he not be allowed to remarry and maybe be castrated so that way he can't father anymore biological children...

Before you answer those questions.. and start calling him names like scumbag and accomplice.. maybe one should read this.


LINK (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,218445,00.html)
Andrea Yates: More To The Story

Jurors took notes as Rusty testified about his life with Andrea, whom he had met when they were both 25 years old and living in the same apartment complex in Houston. He told them how their family had grown, and how they had moved from a house in suburbia to a camping trailer to a bus converted into a motor home, where Andrea focused on raising the toddlers. After the birth of their fourth child, Luke, in 1999, Andrea tried twice to commit suicide. She was hospitalized both times and was diagnosed with postpartum depression and psychosis.

The couple and their four sons moved from the bus into their house on Beachcomber Lane in a Houston suburb. She recovered while using Haldol, but eventually stopped taking the medication. Against the advice of her psychiatrist, Andrea soon became pregnant again with their fifth child, Mary. Within months, following the death of her ailing father, her psychosis returned. Instead of taking her back to the same doctor who'd treated her before, Rusty told jurors that he and Andrea went to the Devereux-Texas Treatment Network, where Mohammed Saeed became Andrea's psychiatrist. Rusty testified that he never knew that Andrea had visions and voices; he said he never knew she had considered killing the children. Neither did Dr. Saeed, even though the delusions could have been found in medical records from 1999. Andrea would not talk or eat.

After only slight improvement, Andrea was released from Devereux. A month later, she had another episode. Rusty took her back to Devereux. Again, she was released. Dr. Saeed reluctantly prescribed Haldol, the same drug that worked in a drug cocktail for her in 1999. But after a few weeks, he took her off the drug, citing his concerns about side effects. Though Andrea's condition seemed to be worsening two days before the drownings, when her husband drove her to Saeed's office, Rusty testified, the doctor refused to try Haldol longer or return her to the hospital. Rusty was frustrated, he told the jury, and he didn't know what else to do.

The first paragraph tells that he didn't impregnate her twice but only once more from the onset of the first time she became depressed, tried to commit suicide not once but twice, and went to the hospital and was diagnosed as having PPD and psychosis.

Claims that he got her preggy twice from her onset of the PPD has now been disproven IMO.

The man clearly cared enough to take her to not one doctor but more then 1.. it's also obvious that despite the fact that Andrea had PPD, she also still had a voice, opinions, options and responsibilities. At this time she still, despite what doctors had diagnosed her with.. was legally allowed to be herself and do as she felt fit... She was living with her depression and not being incarcerated, institutionalized or hospitalized by doctors for her depression and when she was hospitalized for her attempts to commit suicide, and episodes, she was always released within an amount of time, which says to me... the doctors let her out or she let herself out.
her husband, I don't believe had any authority to remove her from hospitals or tell the doctors how to treat her.

In the quote (from inside the courtroom) She, against the advice of one of her doctors stopped taking medication and got pregnant for her fifth child shortly after her father passed away.
She stopped taking it.. not her husband took it away from her.
He states how he took her to the doctor, episode after episode and he himself felt frustrated and didn't know what to do after the last doctor took her off the drug that had seemed to be working for her just 2 days before the drownings.

If anyone wants to say.. well.. ya.. but he should have seen signs..
well.. lets read this

What is postpartum depression?
LINK (http://www.altabates.com/health/healthinfo/index.cfm?A=C&hwid=tn9653)

Postpartum depression (PPD) is a serious medical condition that can develop some time in the first few months after childbirth. Without treatment, PPD can be prolonged and disabling. Postpartum depression is very common, affecting 1 in 8 women during the first months after childbirth.1 It can also strike after miscarriage, stillbirth, and adoption.

In rare cases, a woman may have psychotic symptoms that could put herself or others in danger. She may or may not seem depressed. This is called postpartum psychosis.

Note the last paragraph.. She may or "may not" seem depressed. This is called postpartum psychosis... just what she had been diagnosed with

So how is anyone to know from day to day what someones thoughts are especially when symptoms are shown to not be recognized sometimes.

The doctor and the husband both said they didn't know she had any thoughts or visions or voices; and never knew she had considered killing the children. but still the husband everytime took her for help when she did try to kill herself and had episodes

Does anyone see what I'm tryin to say?

I can't see all the bad in this man.. or the reason for hate towards him.

I'm saddened by the loss of these children.. I'm sorry Andrea Yates got mentally sick and snapped and drowned her children

To hold this man in so much contempt that you believe he should not have any life now because his ex wife murdered their 5 children while afflicted by PPD, IMO seems alittle strong.

I remember this story and I have to tell you.. I'm way more upset about them innocent lives taken from this earth and not being given a chance at life then I am the fact this man has moved on to a different wife and life.

How and why is over.
If this man made one mistake
yes,, I will agree....it most likely was the fifth child he desired.
that was a mistake ..that was a bad idea.. that was a risk.
but thats not a crime.

I see no humanity whatsoever in punishing anymore this lady or this man.
She is now institutionalized for an unpredicted time frame and he has continued to live and move on.

I don't know what more this man has to do or pay for?
But I hold no contempt for the man.. I feel bad for him.. Him .. her and the lost children, as well as anyone else living with the illness.. be it the person afflicted by it or the people around the person afflicted.

[AnnEsthesia]

Sorry cronic. I know you feel he is innocent and should not be condemned, but I blame him for placing her in a situation where this happened. If my husband was mentally ill and I was told that doing X would be bad and potentially dangerous, I would make DAMNED sure that X did not happen. He is to blame for not getting her help and he is to blame for not ensuring that his children were safe. Most normal people would have removed the children or her from the home until she was no longer considered a threat to their health. He did nothing to keep this from happening, therefore he has a share of the blame in this case.

She stopped taking it.. not her husband took it away from her.
He states how he took her to the doctor, episode after episode and he himself felt frustrated and didn't know what to do after the last doctor took her off the drug that had seemed to be working for her just 2 days before the drownings.

You mean besides not having sex with her, using a condom, getting her committed to ensure she got the help she needed... you mean those things? Poor dear... I thought men wanted to be an active partner in their wives's lives... but I guess when the wives are mentally ill and impregnating them is against doctors advice and something horrible happens... suddenly men should just be considered not at all involved... helpless victims, eh?

[cronic]

Let's all just hope that this new wife doesn't become ill in any way because she sure can't depend upon her husband to take care of her or protect her.


So, now your claiming he didn't take care of or protect Andrea?

How is him rushing home when she called him having episodes, and him taking her to various doctors, and him staying with her thru her illness and continuing to love her.. not caring for her.. or not protecting her for that matter?

do you base theses claims on the fact that they got pregnant for a fifth time against doctors orders? because she was the sick one and he was sane so.. he automatically must be uncaring and unprotecting because hey.. she murdered her kids, and if he wouldn't have stuck it in her.. and got her pregnant.. none of this would have ever happened?
That one mistake makes him an uncaring person towards his wife?

That is the only bad I see here or mistakes I have read about concerning him... No where else have I read anything from anyone including Andrea herself showing lack of love or caring for her from him and I have been researching this for hours now.

Would you happen to have any links or proof maybe of Rusty beating or abusing or just being uncaring towards Andrea?
If not I'll base your comments on pure speculation and bias once again.

[AnnEsthesia]

He did not do everything he could have. He impregnated her even against doctor advice. He very well may have loved her and thought he was doing enough... but I sure as hell would not be leaving my kids alone with someone that unstable, nor would I have NOT committed someone who had twice tried to commit suicide.

[AnnEsthesia]

I am sure the people who refuse to allow their loved ones medical care and thereby they die a needless death and are brought up on murder charges loved their family members too... no one claims he did not love her, but clearly that was not enough, now was it?

[cronic]

Sorry cronic. I know you feel he is innocent and should not be condemned, but I blame him for placing her in a situation where this happened. If my husband was mentally ill and I was told that doing X would be bad and potentially dangerous, I would make DAMNED sure that X did not happen. He is to blame for not getting her help and he is to blame for not ensuring that his children were safe. Most normal people would have removed the children or her from the home until she was no longer considered a threat to their health. He did nothing to keep this from happening, therefore he has a share of the blame in this case.

I respect your opinion AnnE! :thumbsup:

I do tho see him innocent in the eyes of the law and so does the law apparently. I again have no doubts he feels responsible in many ways.. but accomplice to murder AnnE? NO way..

I don't see how he didn't help her either..
Ok, getting pregnant for a fifth time was not a good idea.. that did place her in a stressful situation again.. that was not helping her.. you can have that one..
but what more was he supposed to do besides get her doctors help.. should he have divorced her?.. or.. like you suggest.. what if he had decided to take the children away from her and hide them from her.. how many people then would be saying that was wrong of him and he had no right to do that?.. I can tell you.. almost everyone would be saying that.
Moreover, everywhere I have read it seems as if he tried to get her help... many times he got her help.. he was the one taking her to the doctors.. he can't commit her.. thats up to a Doctor.. and she was committed a few times...

yea.. he could have worn a condom.. or got himself fixed.. maybe she could have gotten fixed to or maybe some other kind of birth control.
maybe stopped having sex all together would have been the answer for them but I am guessing that could also bring more stress and problems as people need to express love I think

As the story unfolded until the end, she was supposedly on the road to recovery.. all was going very well for them..
They both had sex and they both conceived a fifth child. not just Him
at the time they were both happy and all seemed to be going good.. the child was born and she started having depression again.. he seen it.. he acted on it..
he took her back to the doctor.

The man had her at the doctors 2 days before she drowned her children.. he was frustrated and upset.. he was trying to help get his wife better.. I think he cared for her and I think he loved her. the doctor took her off the meds that was working for her. He did care enough to take her for help that time, like he did every other time.

IMO its almost being portrayed here that this lady had no mind of her own.. That she was totally incompetent which is just not the case.

I will blame him a little AnnE.. but to say he is an accomplice to murder or even say he now deserves no right to a meaningful life I can't and wont say.


I am sure the people who refuse to allow their loved ones medical care and thereby they die a needless death and are brought up on murder charges loved their family members too... no one claims he did not love her, but clearly that was not enough, now was it?

I am sorry.. But I have seen no where at all what so ever any evidence here in this thread or from the hours I have been reading on the internet, that he did not allow her to seek any doctors treatment.. Until I see actual proof or even evidence regarding that accusation I will have to classify it almost as untrue as some of the Obama smears that fly around here because it has no basis or proof to it at all. In fact I believe I have interpreted just the opposite in my readings of this case, as he continually was taking her to the doctors and trying to get her that help

[AnnEsthesia]

Sweetie, a mentally ill person will not seek out treatment. Hence why it is up to the sane people around them to do it even if it is against their will. To claim that it is all on her is just ridiculous.

[Buck Laser]

Trish, I agree with you. Andrea Yates was and is so mentally ill that she can't be punished for the terrible things she did. Her ex-husband appears to have aggravated her condition.

What I don't understand is the blood lust so many people have to kill her. Our former gubner wanted to off her too. Will one of you strict punishment people tell me why you're so anxious to get Andrea Yates dead? Will it improve your life somehow? Will it deter other people from going crazy? Or do you just want some revenge?

[cronic]

Sweetie, a mentally ill person will not seek out treatment. Hence why it is up to the sane people around them to do it even if it is against their will. To claim that it is all on her is just ridiculous.


I agree AnnE :peace:
I grow weary of debate..lol.. maybe its cause no one else wants to help me here..haha
so to hell with the lot of ya.. I'm joking.. no fp please..lol

I'll just finish up by saying
I also think its equally ridiculous to believe this man should be considered an accomplice to murder and not be allowed to move on with his life just as Andrea is doing now and has said she wants him to do also.

[AnnEsthesia]

She is hardly moving on with her life from within a psychiatric facility. You seem to think she is off on vacation.

[Buck Laser]

Sweetie, a mentally ill person will not seek out treatment. Hence why it is up to the sane people around them to do it even if it is against their will. To claim that it is all on her is just ridiculous.


I agree AnnE :peace:
I grow weary of debate..lol.. maybe its cause no one else wants to help me here..haha
so to hell with the lot of ya.. I'm joking.. no fp please..lol

I'll just finish up by saying
I also think its equally ridiculous to believe this man should be considered an accomplice to murder and not be allowed to move on with his life just as Andrea is doing now and has said she wants him to do also.


Maybe you'll agree though that he's a total asshole?

[cronic]

She is hardly moving on with her life from within a psychiatric facility. You seem to think she is off on vacation.


ah.. I guess when 2 opinions differ, these kind of responses should be expected around here and it is.. its ok.. I'm over it. I just get surprised by it sometimes still thats all.

:unreal: ok.. Where did I say it would seem to me that she was on a vacation? or is this just your basic mind reading / ESP ability?

Really,
Where did you pick up on that AnnE, so I may see what you evidently misconstrued in my typing so I can try to correct it.

or ... let me try this again[hr]

AnnE, she is moving on with her life.. she is receiving treatment for her mental issues. I don't think she is on a vacation nor do I mean to make it sound like that.
did I say she was in a happy place?..I don't think so.. hmmm..
God show me the error in my typing please.

she is there for her, and the general publics safety.
she is there because she is sick and needs mental help.

would you rather she be somewhere else?

are you saying Rusty Yates should give up his life now because she is locked up in a mental hospital?

Would you feel better or would it be more fair for you if this man was put in jail or a mental hospital to?
what am I supposed to do about where she is living now and how she got there?

All I stated was she ( Andrea Yates ) is moving on and wants the same for her ex husband.

Im sorry if I sounded mean or uncaring before.. I am sure where she is is no picnic and I am positive its not a great place to be.. I can think of a million places Id rather be to..

[AnnEsthesia]

He is moving on with his life too. She is constantly held up as the worst monster in the world. Do you not think that will follow her throughout life? Why should he not have to face the honest questions about his own behavior? I do not get why you are complaining that people criticize him.

Moving on and having people never say a word about you are two separate things. Had he done all that was possible to do, THEN you could say he was completely without guilt there. But he did not and so he IS, in many ways, guilty for the string of events to lead to the children's death, just as the person who serves alcohol and then does not stop someone from drunk driving is, in many ways, culpable.

[cronic]

Maybe you'll agree though that he's a total asshole?

No sir.. I won't agree with that.

I have read for hours and hours about Rusty and Andrea Yates
They were religious people.. they loved each other.. Andrea places no blame on him whatsoever, and all I have read about Rusty Yates has been positive except for the fact that him "and" Andrea both elected to have a fifth child which resulted in her recurrence of the PPD. ( plus the fact that she went against doc orders and stopped her meds )
again.. a mistake.. not a crime.

How would that make him a total asshole?
Is there another basis you have in regards to wanting me to agree that he was a total asshole?
did you know him personally?
Or.. he is just an asshole because he didn't prevent Andrea from killing their children?
Was he an abuser?

I have no problem giving credit where credit is due Buck but.. I can't call people assholes I don't know or have little info about like some can

[cronic]

He is moving on with his life too. She is constantly held up as the worst monster in the world. Do you not think that will follow her throughout life? Why should he not have to face the honest questions about his own behavior? I do not get why you are complaining that people criticize him.

Moving on and having people never say a word about you are two separate things. Had he done all that was possible to do, THEN you could say he was completely without guilt there. But he did not and so he IS, in many ways, guilty for the string of events to lead to the children's death, just as the person who serves alcohol and then does not stop someone from drunk driving is, in many ways, culpable.


criticize him all you want.
Im giving you my opinion is all..
again.. I respect all your opinions..

I'm debating the fact that he shouldn't be considered an accomplice to 5 murders and I'm debating the facts that he does still have a right to have a life.. a new wife.. a child.. to move on...thats all I'm debating.

Had he done all that was possible to do, THEN you could say he was completely without guilt there.

Again.. I will continue to repeat myself.
I never said he was completely without guilt. :sadly:

[AnnEsthesia]

Then why should he have to not face the questions? He can move on, he can have a new life... but he will always have to face the questions. Such is life.

[Trish]

Let's all just hope that this new wife doesn't become ill in any way because she sure can't depend upon her husband to take care of her or protect her.


So, now your claiming he didn't take care of or protect Andrea?

How is him rushing home when she called him having episodes, and him taking her to various doctors, and him staying with her thru her illness and continuing to love her.. not caring for her.. or not protecting her for that matter?

do you base theses claims on the fact that they got pregnant for a fifth time against doctors orders? because she was the sick one and he was sane so.. he automatically must be uncaring and unprotecting because hey.. she murdered her kids, and if he wouldn't have stuck it in her.. and got her pregnant.. none of this would have ever happened?
That one mistake makes him an uncaring person towards his wife?

That is the only bad I see here or mistakes I have read about concerning him... No where else have I read anything from anyone including Andrea herself showing lack of love or caring for her from him and I have been researching this for hours now.

Would you happen to have any links or proof maybe of Rusty beating or abusing or just being uncaring towards Andrea?
If not I'll base your comments on pure speculation and bias once again.



If he cared about her well-being more than his own he would have had his nuts cut. He KNEW from the first instance of PPD after their 3rd child that she should not have more children. They had the 4th. At that point he was told again that more pregnancies could be DANGEROUS for her mental health. For ANY person that cares for another person, that "could" be dangerous would have been all it took. If he'd cared about his wife he would have done everything he could to have prevented her from becoming pregnant again - and the sure fire way of doing just that is a vasectomy. He didn't have one...she got pregnant again. He KNEW there was a problem because he was having his mother come every day to stay with Andrea while he was at work. His mother was late the day the kids were killed. He knew there was a problem - she had tried to kill herself in the past. That's a warning sign no one can miss. He didn't know? BUllshit. He knew. He's as complicit in the deaths of those children as if he had helped hold them under water. At the very least he should do time for reckless endangerment. He endangered Andrea's mental health and he endangered his children's lives by his arrogant and reckless disregard of medical advice.

I have nothing but contempt for him.

[cronic]

Then why should he have to not face the questions? He can move on, he can have a new life... but he will always have to face the questions. Such is life.


yep, such is life
I will agree with that to. I have no problem with him facing questions.

my point is he should be allowed to move on and have a new life is all.
I don't think its a crock of shit for this man to continue on living.
and I don't see accomplice to 5 murders here.

What would people have him do?.. kill himself?.. sit in a room and never speak.. just fall into a deep depression maybe.. become depressed and have to seek mental help also

I mean.. just what the hell is expected of the guy now?

Many could argue that her defense was a crock of shit as many did and still do I'm sure.
Personally I don't think her defense was a crock of shit because I believe these things happen and depression is real.

I really believe that the lady was totally out of her mind when she did these killings

The court system and the doctors are trying to help her now to cope, deal with and move on from her illness

I don't know what more to say except again.. I feel sorry for this man and I feel sorry for Andrea.
I try not to place blame on anyone to heavily as it would seem there could be enough to go around for a few people.. him.. herself.. maybe other family members.. how about the doctors?

[cronic]

If he cared about her well-being more than his own he would have had his nuts cut. He KNEW from the first instance of PPD after their 3rd child that she should not have more children. They had the 4th. At that point he was told again that more pregnancies could be DANGEROUS for her mental health. For ANY person that cares for another person, that "could" be dangerous would have been all it took. If he'd cared about his wife he would have done everything he could to have prevented her from becoming pregnant again - and the sure fire way of doing just that is a vasectomy. He didn't have one...she got pregnant again. He KNEW there was a problem because he was having his mother come every day to stay with Andrea while he was at work. His mother was late the day the kids were killed. He knew there was a problem - she had tried to kill herself in the past. That's a warning sign no one can miss. He didn't know? BUllshit. He knew. He's as complicit in the deaths of those children as if he had helped hold them under water. At the very least he should do time for reckless endangerment. He endangered Andrea's mental health and he endangered his children's lives by his arrogant and reckless disregard of medical advice.

I have nothing but contempt for him.


again.. you are falsifying this story.
I have already provided a link stating her PPD wasn't diagnosed until after the 4th child.. not the third..

The Yates Children:
Feb. 26, 1994 – Noah Yates, Dec. 12, 1995 - John Yates, Sept. 13, 1997 - Paul Yates, Feb. 15, 1999 - Luke Yates, and on Nov. 30, 2000 - Mary Yates was the last child to be born.

reference the date of the 4th childs birthday please

Andrea’s First Suicide Attempt : On June 16 1999, Andrea called Rusty and begged him to come home. He found her shaking involuntarily and chewing on her fingers. The next day, she was hospitalized after she tried to commit suicide by taking an overdose of pills. She was transferred to the Methodist Hospital psychiatric unit and diagnosed with a major depressive disorder. The medical staff described Andrea as evasive in discussing her problems. However, on June 24 she was prescribed an antidepressant and released.

I have also provided other links showing medical statements about PPS and how the symptoms can sometimes not be seen.

How is it he was reckless for disregard of medical advice but she isn't?
Now remember Trish.. she has PPD.. she is not totally incompetent..
Stop making this woman out to be a complete brainless person here with no thought process or responsibility.

If you actually read the link I provided about statements made in the courtroom.. you will read that she was doing very well.. she snapped after the fifth baby and after she had been off her meds.. The man had her at the doctors 2 days before she killed them children.. he did recognize and tried to again help her

Yes.. he could have had his nuts cut.. and she could have had her tubes tied.
but neither of them did that.. instead they elected to have a fifth child
Together!

[Go Fish]

"If he cared about her well-being more than his own he would have had his nuts cut. " _Annesthesia

Wait one *&##$%-*^&##@^ minute, Missy! If the shrinks that decided that she was unfit to ever push out another kid were serious, they would have ordered the toys removed from her playpen! If she was that goddamned homicidal, she should have been put in jail instead of being left loose in the community to kill whoever she wanted to.
What kind of man-hating shit is that?

[Scribbler1]

Stop making this woman out to be a complete brainless person here with no thought process or responsibility.So are you saying she should have NOT been found mentally incompetent and should have been sentenced to first degree murder? If she was found responsible she should have gotten the death penalty.

[cronic]

Stop making this woman out to be a complete brainless person here with no thought process or responsibility.So are you saying she should have NOT been found mentally incompetent and should have been sentenced to first degree murder? If she was found responsible she should have gotten the death penalty.


um....no
next!

[Go Fish]

Stop making this woman out to be a complete brainless person here with no thought process or responsibility.So are you saying she should have NOT been found mentally incompetent and should have been sentenced to first degree murder? If she was found responsible she should have gotten the death penalty.


She WAS responsible!

[Pookie]

She was mentally ill, Fish. Sometimes mentally ill people cannot control their actions.
Believe me, I know. My first husband battled severe depression all his life, and I came home from work one day and nearly tripped over him. He had shot himself in the head.
I can understand mentally ill, believe me. It's also very, very difficult to be married to one who is mentally ill.
Purrs,
Pookie

[Trish]

If he cared about her well-being more than his own he would have had his nuts cut. He KNEW from the first instance of PPD after their 3rd child that she should not have more children. They had the 4th. At that point he was told again that more pregnancies could be DANGEROUS for her mental health. For ANY person that cares for another person, that "could" be dangerous would have been all it took. If he'd cared about his wife he would have done everything he could to have prevented her from becoming pregnant again - and the sure fire way of doing just that is a vasectomy. He didn't have one...she got pregnant again. He KNEW there was a problem because he was having his mother come every day to stay with Andrea while he was at work. His mother was late the day the kids were killed. He knew there was a problem - she had tried to kill herself in the past. That's a warning sign no one can miss. He didn't know? BUllshit. He knew. He's as complicit in the deaths of those children as if he had helped hold them under water. At the very least he should do time for reckless endangerment. He endangered Andrea's mental health and he endangered his children's lives by his arrogant and reckless disregard of medical advice.

I have nothing but contempt for him.


again.. you are falsifying this story.
I have already provided a link stating her PPD wasn't diagnosed until after the 4th child.. not the third..

The Yates Children:
Feb. 26, 1994 – Noah Yates, Dec. 12, 1995 - John Yates, Sept. 13, 1997 - Paul Yates, Feb. 15, 1999 - Luke Yates, and on Nov. 30, 2000 - Mary Yates was the last child to be born.

reference the date of the 4th childs birthday please

Andrea’s First Suicide Attempt : On June 16 1999, Andrea called Rusty and begged him to come home. He found her shaking involuntarily and chewing on her fingers. The next day, she was hospitalized after she tried to commit suicide by taking an overdose of pills. She was transferred to the Methodist Hospital psychiatric unit and diagnosed with a major depressive disorder. The medical staff described Andrea as evasive in discussing her problems. However, on June 24 she was prescribed an antidepressant and released.

I have also provided other links showing medical statements about PPS and how the symptoms can sometimes not be seen.

How is it he was reckless for disregard of medical advice but she isn't?
Now remember Trish.. she has PPD.. she is not totally incompetent..
Stop making this woman out to be a complete brainless person here with no thought process or responsibility.

If you actually read the link I provided about statements made in the courtroom.. you will read that she was doing very well.. she snapped after the fifth baby and after she had been off her meds.. The man had her at the doctors 2 days before she killed them children.. he did recognize and tried to again help her

Yes.. he could have had his nuts cut.. and she could have had her tubes tied.
but neither of them did that.. instead they elected to have a fifth child
Together!


While I am certain that I have read more than once that Andrea Yates suffered PPD after the birth of her 3rd child, I can't find the articles. So I will recant on that assertion.

I will however give you the link to a timeline regarding AY's medical history. Pay special attention to the items after the birth of her 4th child and before her 5th child (beginning on page 2). Then you tell me if this is a woman that YOU would judge rational enough to decide to give birth to YOUR children and care for them. She was not "doing fine." She was not brainless, she was not stupid, but she was extremely ill mentally. She was not competent to make ANY decisions regarding her own welfare or that of her children, and certainly not competent to decide to continue having children. http://www.law.duke.edu/journals/djglp/downloads/gen10p61.pdf

As to Rusty Yates helping her every way he could -

"In the years since the children were killed, Yates has been quite visible as a supportive spouse, attending his wife's 2002 capital murder trial, going to hearings, pleading her case before the media...Even after he divorced her last year, he continued a campaign to get her out of prison and into treatment. But some say that kind of support was hard to see before the children's deaths.

"You've got a pre-June 20th Rusty and a post-June 20th Rusty," said Bob Holmes, who met Yates in 1989, when the couple was dating.

Holmes insists that Rusty Yates, vilified on Web sites and radio and TV talk shows, "isn't a monster."

But Holmes is counted among those who knew the couple and who question the way he dealt with his wife's mental illness, which seemed to materialize in their marriage after the birth of their fourth child, Luke.

"Did he lose his children? Yes. Do I feel bad for him? Absolutely," said Holmes, who along with his wife, Debbie, met then-Andrea Kennedy 20 years ago. "But he's the one person who could have stopped it."

...Thirteen days before she systematically drowned her children, Bob Holmes saw the Yates family in the grocery store. The woman he had known for years as a "24/7" mom was alone with a cart. Her children, who had always gathered around her, grouped around their father.

"She looked like a paranoid animal," Holmes recalled. "A dangerous animal. If you see a dog in the corner, with that kind of look, do you care what's going on in his head? She was very scary during that period."

His wife, Debbie, visited the Yates home six days before the children were killed. She saw the same blank look.

Testimony from Andrea Yates' capital murder trial revealed that she walked in circles and failed to eat or feed the children in the weeks before their deaths. Other adults — her mother and her mother-in-law — took turns staying with her.

Holmes said the hardest thing to understand is why Yates did not intervene at that point. "Put himself between the children and her. He could've always had Andrea committed. I will say that until the day I die."
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/3733316.html

Rusty Yates knew, HE was competent, his wife had not been mentally competent for years. Even their friends recognized how ill she was in the days immediately prior to the deaths and still Rusty Yates did not intervene.....he failed his wife and his children. Period.

[Pookie]

I have heard that some men think the biggest cure for PPD is to have more children. I saw this when I was in the Army. A sergeant had a wife and one child, and she had PPD. His solution was to "give her another baby so that she has something else to be happy about" -- HIS exact words.
I told him that wasn't a good idea, and suggested counseling and treatment. He refused, saying "this is just her way of getting attention."
She got his attention, all right. Pregnant with baby #2, she ran him over in the driveway, killing him.
That happened in 1988. She got out of the institution in 2003, is reunited with her children, is working as a paralegal, and on meds. And VERY single.
I think that sergeant was a monster. I was continuously on his butt for mistreating the soldiers under him, including an Article 15. I did that to him on the fourth time we were all tired, and I was exhausted, and once again he told me all I needed was a good f***. That was it for me. He got thirty days in CCF for that one.
And if he was that bad to me, he must have been much worse to his wife.
Mental illness is nothing to fart around with or ignore.
Believe me, I know this firsthand.
If he knew she was mentally ill, he should never have pushed more kids on her, but then again, he could have been in that mindset where he thought more children would make her happy.
Purrs,
Pookie

[Go Fish]

She was mentally ill, Fish. Sometimes mentally ill people cannot control their actions.
Believe me, I know. My first husband battled severe depression all his life, and I came home from work one day and nearly tripped over him. He had shot himself in the head.
I can understand mentally ill, believe me. It's also very, very difficult to be married to one who is mentally ill.
Purrs,
Pookie

Damn. It's with the greatest sincerity that I sit here trying to put together a string of words that make it seem that although I have no idea what it's like to endure that unbelievable horror, that I can relate. I can't, and it hurt just reading that.
I will be asking questions of others that won't take this into account, however, and they won't be based on this. They may pick scabs, but they are in no way related to what you said.

[Pookie]

I am so very glad you can't relate to that, Fish. I would never, ever, wish this on anyone, ever. I am happy to know you can't relate to it, and bless your soul for being honest. I pray no one ever has to deal with this.
I understand you'll be hearing from others who have a different viewpoint, and that is, in fact, why I really love this forum and its members.
Everyone is different, and we all have different perspectives. If it weren't that way, and we were all alike, this place would be so boring we'd have to choke the crap out of each other.
It will be interesting to see how this thread goes. I think Rusty knew his wife was mentally ill, and perhaps thought more babies would bring her out of it. He didn't understand PPD and its consequences, and perhaps persuaded her that more children would be the cure.
Purrs,
Pookie

[Scribbler1]

Stop making this woman out to be a complete brainless person here with no thought process or responsibility.So are you saying she should have NOT been found mentally incompetent and should have been sentenced to first degree murder? If she was found responsible she should have gotten the death penalty.


um....no
next!
Then if she isn't responsible for the crimes, you can't keep insisting she was equally responsible for the sex, or anything else.

[cronic]

Stop making this woman out to be a complete brainless person here with no thought process or responsibility.So are you saying she should have NOT been found mentally incompetent and should have been sentenced to first degree murder? If she was found responsible she should have gotten the death penalty.


um....no
next!
Then if she isn't responsible for the crimes, you can't keep insisting she was equally responsible for the sex, or anything else.


sure I can.. there is a difference in responsible and guilty in this case...
Not to mention a time frame in which things happened, that needs to be considered here.

She was found innocent of murder by reason of insanity.

Do I think she was insane at the time of the acts of drowning?
Yes!

Do I think she was sane enough.. not completely out of her mind depressed, like she was when she committed the drownings, when they had sex for the fifth child..

Absolutely.

She was depressed... she had problems and was on meds. She was living with PPD at the time... But she was competent enough to continue on in her life without being institutionalized.

I have also read or heard nothing anywhere else about him forcing himself on her or raping her or her being completely unknown to being pregnant or having sex.

its already been concluded that it was a bad idea for the lady to go off her meds and have a fifth child... I'm not placing all blame on her for that.. I have already said that he should and I'm sure does accept some of the blame. But you can't place all blame on him and none on her..

All I am trying to say is, he and her both made that decision Scribbler.. not just him...

The lady was coherent enough to feed herself and she was coherent enough to dress herself. She was coherent enough to do many things still.

When she did lose all control.. she was then insane.. she wasn't insane before that.. she had PPD and was depressed.. severely yet. but not locked up.. not in a hospital... still living her life best she could..

Thats the reason she was found innocent of murder - but still only innocent by reason of insanity.

She went insane at the time of the drownings.

She was never diagnosed with being insane before, just with severe depression and PPD, thus the reason she was on meds, at home, and not institutionalized at the time of the murders

I don't think anyone has said or can say, she was totally out of her mind the whole time she was sufferring from depression.. as a matter of fact.. it was noted that between the fourth and fifth child... they was doing very well.. she was much better.. all the way up till the stopping of the meds and after the birth of baby number 5.

In conclusion.. To believe your logic in regards to, I can't keep insisting she was equally responsible for the sex, or anything else..
I submit she was partially responsible and not totally responsible.. but there is time between her having sex for the fifth child.. and the drownings.. alot of time.. 16 months worth of time.. almost a year and a half..
If your trying to say this lady was the same, sanity-wise, for 16 months.. I don't buy it and I can't believe anyone else could either..

That would be to long to go un-noticed by Rusty.. her mom, his mom, all the others in her life including the doctors.
Not to mention if that was the case... then id be pretty worried if I was her doctor.. the one that seen her 2 days before she killed them children.. ( yano, the one that let her go home.)

[Trish]

cronic -

REad the timeline I gave you. Rusty Yates knew, or at least should have known since he was TOLD more than once, after the birth of the 4th child that his wife should have no more children. There's no excuse for him NOT knowing since she'd tried to kill herself twice and been hospitalized that she was more than "depressed." She was mentally ill.

But, let me ask you this. Would YOU keep something potentially dangerous in your home? Let's say nitro. Properly managed and stored, nitro can be handled. Not properly managed and stored, nitro is lethal. Would YOU choose to take the chance of keeping nitro in your home assuming that even when you weren't around the proper controls and handling would be in place? The type of mental illness Andrea Yates has is much like nitro. With proper handling and meds, it can be controlled and managed. Without proper handling and meds, it's potentially lethal. The results of that 4th child should have been all the warning Rusty Yates needed to KNOW that his wife could no longer function without proper handling and meds. That 5th child removed ALL the controls and safeguards. Mentally speaking, Andrea Yates was nitroglycerine.

The deaths of those 5 children could have prevented if Rusty Yates had heeded what the doctors told him and ensured his wife never became pregnant again. He could have ensured that with a simple medical procedure. He KNEW....and he did not take the simple steps which would have prevented those deaths.

[cronic]

I do worry about people who may get mad at my opinions.. so, in light of this very hot topic for some of us here.. I wish to make a statement before I go any further.

This goes out to Trish.. AnnE and Scribbler and everyone else reading or posting or not posting..

I still respect anyone and everyone that has an opinion about this.. I will hear them.. I will debate them..eventually I will stop tho as I believe I have probably come close to posting almost half the posts in this thread and it is getting a bit tiresome on my end.

Still I just want everyone to know.. I am not mad about anyones thoughts or opinions.. I hope the same consideration is givin back at me.

Now I will reply


The deaths of those 5 children could have prevented if Rusty Yates had heeded what the doctors told him and ensured his wife never became pregnant again. He could have ensured that with a simple medical procedure. He KNEW....and he did not take the simple steps which would have prevented those deaths.


I will agree again to an extent.
But here in lies the difference that we can't seem to agree on.

Here is how I would write your last paragraph

The deaths of those 5 children could have been prevented if Rusty And Andrea Yates had heeded what the doctors told them and ensured they would never became pregnant again. They could have ensured that with a simple medical procedure. They KNEW....and they did not take the simple steps which would have prevented those deaths.

See the difference in our paragraghs...

yours sounds like you are placing "ALL" blame and/or fault on Rusty Yates and "NONE" on Andrea Yates and if its because of the mental depressive state she was in then I don't think it can be considered accurate.

I have read the timeline.. still I assert here that she was not insane until she drowned her children.

I want to paste a bit of the timeline myself.. but I wont add it all because its very long.


June 18, 1999 Andrea is officially admitted to Methodist Hospital's
psychiatric unit. A nurse notes that Andrea seems unsure as
to whether she will receive the help she needs there, and
Andrea refuses to consent to medication. Andrea tells the
staff at Methodist Hospital that she consumed the pills to
"sleep forever," but afterwards felt guilty because she had her
"family to live for." Andrea later says that she wants to stay
off medication so that she can continue to breastfeed.
Andrea meets with social worker Norma Tauriac, but Tauriac
is forced to call Russell and interview him over the phone
about Andrea because Andrea "wasn't giving her the
information she needed.

Andrea refuses to consent to medication

Fault is who's?


July 1, 1999 Dr. Starbranch meets with Andrea for the first time. Andrea
says that the Zoloft was helping a little, but she still feels
anxious. Dr. Starbranch recommends that Andrea switch
from Zoloft to Zyprexa, a last-resort antipsychotic used to
treat bipolar mania and schizophrenia. Andrea flushes the
Zyprexa samples down the toilet.

Andrea flushes the
Zyprexa samples down the toilet.


Fault is who's?


July 22, 1999 A social worker at Memorial Spring Shadows Glen tries to
interview Andrea. Andrea refuses to disclose any clinical
information and resists all psychotropic medication. Dr. Lara
Longo notes that Andrea makes poor eye contact, is
"minimally communicative," seems anxious, and "has a
blunted affect." Dr. Longo also reports that Andrea has sores
on her scalp that she appears to have been picking, as well as
superficial scratches on her extremities that seem to be selfinflicted.
Andrea refuses to dress for bed and seems
frightened of nurses.

July 24, 1999 Andrea continues to refuse to answer interview questions at
Memorial Spring Shadows Glen. She signs a consent form
allowing hospital staff to speak to Russell and her mother.
She eventually agrees to take the anti-psychotic drug
Zyprexa.

July 26, 1999 Andrea again refuses a psychosocial interview at Memorial
Spring Shadows Glen and does not eat

It's clear she is depressed as she still refuses to accept the help being offered to her.


Oct. 14, 1999 Russell and Andrea meet with Dr. Starbranch and tell her that
due to an insurance problem, Andrea is not receiving her
Haldol and Cogentin. They report that Andrea is feeling
better (no hallucinations or paranoia, good appetite,
somewhat energetic), and ask if she can stop taking
medication. Dr. Starbranch notes that Andrea is "doing OK,"
but puts her on the antipsychotic drug Zyprexa.

mid-Nov. 1999 Andrea is doing well, so Dr. Starbranch halves her dosage of
Zyprexa, but continues her dosages of Effexor and
Wellbutrin.

Dec. 14, 1999 Andrea reports that she is doing well. According to some
sources, she prospers in the Beachcomber Lane home –
swimming laps at dawn, baking and sewing, playing with her
children, and fostering an environment for home schooling,
which Russell encourages. At this point, Andrea admits to
Russell that she had "failed" at their life in the bus. But she
seems to believe that this new phase in their lives is a chance
to succeed. Most important are the family's three nights of
Bible study in the living room because Russell does not like
any of the churches in their area.

Dec. 1999 Dr. Starbranch takes Andrea off of Haldol but continues the
other medications.

Jan. 2000 Andrea has her last visit with Dr. Starbranch. Andrea admits
that she has not been taking her medication since mid-
November, but says that she's been doing well.

wow.. Oct 99 to January 2000 and she is doing well now..

Lets skip ahead now a bit...
It's march 2000 and she becomes pregnant.

Between march 2000 and March 2001...
A whole year going by.. not 1 thing is on the timeline good or bad.. Nothing for a whole year saying anything about her except
The birth of baby number 5 in November of 2000.

March 12, 2001 Andrea's Father dies and her condition then begins to worsen again.

Before the end of that month.. Rusty had her back in treatment and at a new place, new doctor.

here is the ending to this timeline now with the new doctor


May 14, 2001 Andrea is again discharged from Devereux, after telling Dr.
Saeed that she is not suicidal. No one asks her if she is
homicidal. Andrea tells Dr. Saeed that she wants to
participate in partial hospitalization. Russell is stunned that
his wife is being discharged.

The man is stunned... does this sound like someone that didn't care about his wife?


May 17, 2001 Dr. Saeed notes that Andrea seems "stable," but that she
reports "depression." In therapy she says she has no issues to
work on

June 6, 2001 Andrea stops taking Haldol.

June 18, 2001 Andrea and Russell have a follow-up visit with Dr. Saeed.
Russell reports that Andrea is not improving and asks that her
anti-depressant be changed. Russell expresses an unusual
amount of concern about Andrea; she is getting worse and is
now having nightmares. Dr. Saeed allegedly writes in his
notes that Andrea is doing well, and reduces her Effexor
prescription by 150 milligrams in one day, despite Russell's
research indicating that the anti-depressant should not be
reduced by more than 75 milligrams over 3-4 days. Dr.
Saeed refuses to put Andrea back on Haldol, irrespective of
Russell's pleadings, claiming that Haldol is "bad medicine."
Dr. Saeed tells Andrea to focus on "positive thoughts" and
suggests that she see a psychologist

Again a doctor reports she is stable with depression.. and again.. "she" takes herself off her medicine.
whats this?.. Rusty is very concerned about Andrea!


June 20, 2001 Russell notices that Andrea seems nervous in the morning.
He makes sure that she takes her anti-depressants, and leaves
for work. Shortly thereafter, Andrea drowns the five
children. Immediately, she dials 911 and then calls
Russell. When the police arrive, she confesses

He makes sure she takes her medicine..
that doesn't sound like reckless disregard of medical advice there

[hr]
To say she is not guilty of committing them murders because she was insane at the time I will agree with..

to say she was insane and had no ability to make any responsible decisions the rest of the time before that is unfair and I believe untrue otherwise she wouldn't have been allowed to be around the children and would have been committed and not released vs committed and then released everytime, with doctors saying she is depressed but better and can be released now..

Remember the doctors are the ones treating her and deciding whether she stays or go... not Rusty

In the end,
Sure she is the one paying for it now.. but not in even 1 posting, of any of yours in this thread, have you even once directed even a shred of blame at Andrea herself rather its been all Rusty's fault and no one else.. not mothers that was surrounded by this lady for months if not years.. no doctors.. and most of all.. not herself.

Now, Im not saying she should take any blame for developing PPD.. that unfortunately is something no one can control when the medical and biological changes in a woman's body happen.. it can develop into PPD.
Therefore, I will go so far as to agree that she is innocent by reason of insanity.

But for stopping the medication and making love with her husband and getting pregnant for a fifth time I am so sorry.. thats not 100% the mans fault..

If he raped her or drugged her or artificially inseminated her.. then I will agree it was 100% all Rusty's fault.

re-edited for spelling

[Scribbler1]

Still, and BTW I respect your opinions as well, regardless of whether I agree or not, if he knew she shouldn't bear any more children it is his duty as her Husband to NOT allow that to happen. But he wanted to and that was that.

Are you married or a parent? That might affect your judgment if you had a child.

In my case, if we were told by professionals my Wife shouldn't have children, I would have made double-damned sure it didn't happen, REGARDLESS of whether she wanted to or not. And I don't even TRUST "professionals", but I would act merely on the slimmest of chances something would happen.
And I can easily believe she thought she had little choice in the matter of having another child. There are a LOT of women, even in this day and age who do what hubby says out of a sense of inferiority or "duty" to please their men.

Also, she may have been found innocent by reason of insanity, but that's just a legal term which means GUILTY but sick enough to render her incompetent. There was no question she killed her kids, so that's guilty, is it not? Her state of mind is an extenuating circumstance, but she is definitely guilty of killing them. Nobody else committed the crime.

One final point before we move on: I have never said or implied he was REMOTELY guilty of the murders. But he was complicit as he knew she shouldn't have another child.
In my book, he's a selfish, rat bastard. But he's not guilty of murder.

[cronic]

Still, and BTW I respect your opinions as well, regardless of whether I agree or not

Thank you


if he knew she shouldn't bear any more children it is his duty as her Husband to NOT allow that to happen. But he wanted to and that was that.

Agreed.. It certainly would be my duty as a husband, as love alone for my wife would be enough reason for the duty. I'd want the duty also so as to make sure my wife was safe.
from what I read they both wanted big families but I also read what you said.. he did want that fifth child to.. maybe like pookie said in her post.. it could be he thought maybe it would be better having the child..
It sounded like many times Andrea didn't trust the doctors and maybe he wasn't 100% onboard with them either concerning the more children issue.
Still,
Like you,, I wouldn't have risked it.. but for some reason other people do. like they did.


Are you married or a parent? That might affect your judgment if you had a child.

I'm single.. ( most people say divorced )..lol
I was married tho for 18 years.. and I have a daughter.. she is 22 now.
I got the big D in 2000 and I haven't remarried since altho I have a great girlfriend that lives with me.. we been together 5 years now.. so.. wait.. guess I'm not single then huh.. lol
Well, you know what I mean


In my case, if we were told by professionals my Wife shouldn't have children, I would have made double-damned sure it didn't happen, REGARDLESS of whether she wanted to or not. And I don't even TRUST "professionals", but I would act merely on the slimmest of chances something would happen.

In my case to Scrib


And I can easily believe she thought she had little choice in the matter of having another child. There are a LOT of women, even in this day and age who do what hubby says out of a sense of inferiority or "duty" to please their men.

Your right,
That could very well be how it went down here to


Also, she may have been found innocent by reason of insanity, but that's just a legal term which means GUILTY but sick enough to render her incompetent. There was no question she killed her kids, so that's guilty, is it not? Her state of mind is an extenuating circumstance, but she is definitely guilty of killing them. Nobody else committed the crime.

That makes sense


One final point before we move on: I have never said or implied he was REMOTELY guilty of the murders. But he was complicit as he knew she shouldn't have another child.
In my book, he's a selfish, rat bastard. But he's not guilty of murder.


Scrib.. I agree again..
as far as him being a selfish rat basterd....alright.. but.. my only defence from the very beginning was this guy.. whatever one chooses to refer him as.. does still have a right to move on with his life and I disagreed that he was an actual accomplice to murder x 5...
so.. hell man...
we all good lol..( I hope )

[4Reaganomics]

I survived a bath at the Yates house

wasn't easy though

[AnnEsthesia]

He can move on, but he is still guilty to not doing what he should have to prevent this atrocity. Much as someone who serves alcohol and then someone mows people down because they drove drunk is guilty of helping to kill them.

[cronic]

I survived a bath at the Yates house

wasn't easy though


:madlaugh::evil: HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Thank you for the funny..
It was getting to damn serious all up in har.

[Scribbler1]

so.. hell man...
we all good lol..( I hope ) Of course we're good. It was a very interesting argument, and while this one has run its course, I hope to have MORE with you.

Civil, no tempers on either side, intelligent disagreement. Hell, that's what online debate should be. Kudos to you, sir.

[Trish]

cronic -

I'm not angry with you about your opinion. I'm a little stunned that you think a person with a mental illness is competent enough to make life-altering decisions for herself, but I'm certainly not angry. You've been respectful in posting your opinions, and I certainly hope I have been equally respectful of you in posting mine.

The reason I hold Rusty Yates as MORE responsible for the deaths of those children is that he was not ill, he was fully competent.

When our children are small we make all decisions for them because they are not capable of making them for themselves. We watch over them, protect them, discipline them until they reach the point where they can make (hopefully) informed decisions for themselves. We don't let them play with matches, we don't let them run with scissors, we don't let them talk with strangers, we don't let them do any number of things that they might want to do simply because they are not capable at that point in time of making rational decisions for themselves. When our parents get old and are no longer capable of handling their affairs, driving, or living on their own, we make decisions for them as well. We take care of their financial affairs, we restrict their driving privileges, we mandate their living conditions regardless of what they might say they want because they are no longer capable of making those decisions for themselves. When two people marry they are supposed to take care of each other. When Andrea Yates had her 4th child and the doctors told she and her husband of the danger involved in having more children because of her illness, Rusty should have made the decision for them both because at that point in time he was the only one of the two completely capable of making a rational decision. Regardless of Andrea saying she wanted more children, regardless of her refusing to take her meds, HE had the mental capacity to know what was at stake. She didn't. She wasn't dumb or stupid, she was just ill to the point she could not rationally evaluate consequences and come to a competent decision. But he could evaluate the possible consequences rationally for them both and he didn't.

I know I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change mine. All I can say further is that I have experienced PPD. I had a small taste of just how nasty the condition is and just how much it can change a person. I had mild PPD and I had a husband and a support system that recognized even before I did that something about me was not right. I did not have a psychosis, just mild PPD. As mild as it was, it still put me through hell and completely changed my personality. My husband quickly took action to make sure that I got the help I needed as quickly as possible. I was lucky. My small taste was enough to convince me of just how nasty this stuff is. Andrea Yates was ravaged by the psychosis. If I had been in her position, where the doctor had told me and my husband of the dangers involved in having more children, my husband would not have hesitated to make sure that I never again became pregnant. The very POSSIBILITY of danger would have been enough for him to take action to make sure that possibility never presented itself. How do I know this? Because he holds Rusty Yates in deeper contempt than do I.

Anyway, God speed. I think, like you, it's time for me to leave this thread.