It's too late A conservative World View

[Sublimating]

The values and ideals promoted by conservatism are the foundation of as perfect a relationship possible between government and the people. By taxing and regulating the people only as necessary, government encourages self reliance and individual responsibility.

The problem with conservatism is that it does not take into full account the disastrous repercussions of the present level of government overgrowth nor the unreasonable burdens placed on the individual by such a government and its mismanagement of the resources of the people.

It is this complete disregard for the boundaries set forth by the constitution and the failure of government to adhere to its original purpose that has facilitated the increase of government dependence and brought about a continued decline of self reliance and individual responsibility.

When the founding fathers penned the constitution I cannot imagine that they ever foresaw a scenario in which Government would take control (ownership) of nearly all land and available resources and in which it would take the average American nearly half their life and a quarter of their income to acquire one of the most basic necessities, namely a home.

Garet Garrett wrote in 1932, "Mass delusions are not rare. They salt the human story." Indeed, mass delusions are no more apparent than in the realm of public policy and especially in the faith people have in their government to carry out functions designed to promote the public good. How else to describe the persistent belief that government is a good steward of resources of any kind?

“The federal government should not own land other than that authorized in the Constitution. It should not be dictating how land is used in any state, and it should not be enforcing its will over the authority of local elected officials.”

This government (Land Grab) overgrowth and (Monopolization) mismanagement of land and resources has in resulted in people having to enter into a type of indentured servitude in which they must assume a massive debt in order to accommodate a very basic human need.
Additionally, the over taxation and regulation of the people and the epidemic mismanagement of monetary resources by government compound the problem and together go a long way in explaining why a large percentage of Americans increasingly to look to government for various types of assistance.

There was a time in American history when government assistance was unheard of; it did not exist because there was no need or expectation of assistance from the government. As our government began to take more, tax more and regulate unnecessarily, people began to expect more of government.

The basic argument here is not justification socialism but an explanation of how the unchecked ramped overgrowth of government has lead much of our population to view government as a type of surrogate expected to fulfill many of the obligation normally the responsibility of the individual. The conservative approach to government, which seeks to minimize the role of government and maintain minimum taxation of the citizenry, has failed. The current function of conservatism is the moderation of socialism. There can no longer be conservative government. It’s too late for conservatism.

[Go Fish]

"The problem with conservatism is that it does not take into full account the disastrous repercussions of the present level of government overgrowth nor the unreasonable burdens placed on the individual by such a government and its mismanagement of the resources of the people."

Hate to be a pardon-beggar, but keeping said "resources of the people" out of the control of the government is precisely what conservatism is about.
Clinton boasted a $93B "surplus", but it cost us out military readiness, our ICBM supremacy, whatever the total take from his retroactive taxation scam was, and 3,000 American lives on September 11th, 2001.
I ain't even gonn'a get into the levees at NOLA, bridge inspections, funding for stem cell research and every damned thing else he neglected to do.
It's damned lucky for him that the whole Darfur horror didn't start while he and his wife were president. :thumbsup:

[Sublimating]

Hate to be a pardon-beggar, but keeping said "resources of the people" out of the control of the government is precisely what conservatism is about.[quote]

True, We don't disagree there, the assertion is that the effort to " keep said "resources of the people" out of the control of the government" has failed allowing government to deteriorate into a type of socialism. This pseudo-socialist government is part in parcel responsible for the attitudes of entitlement and the increase in government dependence. Essentially, the role of conservative government in America has been reduced to the moderation of socialism. The opportunity for "true" conservative government has come and gone.

[Go Fish]

How can you say such a thing? Ronald Reagan replaced Jimmy Carter, for Christ's sake!

[Osborn F. Enready]

Sublimating said:
When the founding fathers penned the constitution I cannot imagine that they ever foresaw a scenario in which Government would take control (ownership) of nearly all land and available resources and in which it would take the average American nearly half their life and a quarter of their income to acquire one of the most basic necessities, namely a home.

They did, and Washington warned Americans very clearly of this.

Thank the progressives for the bulk of the problems, and the natural reaction to the progressives, the neocons and monopoly capitalists.

I think the problem is, you see today, and blame the wrong sources, based on faulty cause and effect understanding of how this system changed over time.

[Sublimating]

Sublimating said:
When the founding fathers penned the constitution I cannot imagine that they ever foresaw a scenario in which Government would take control (ownership) of nearly all land and available resources and in which it would take the average American nearly half their life and a quarter of their income to acquire one of the most basic necessities, namely a home.

They did, and Washington warned Americans very clearly of this.

Thank the progressives for the bulk of the problems, and the natural reaction to the progressives, the neocons and monopoly capitalists.

I think the problem is, you see today, and blame the wrong sources, based on faulty cause and effect understanding of how this system changed over time.


Elaborate

[Osborn F. Enready]

Subliminating said:
Elaborate.

Allright. First, allow me to breakdown your OP post.....

Subliminating said:
The values and ideals promoted by conservatism are the foundation of as perfect a relationship possible between government and the people. By taxing and regulating the people only as necessary, government encourages self reliance and individual responsibility.

The only thing I would add, is the word objectively, to be accurate, and in this sentence:

By taxing and regulating the people only as objectively necessary, government encourages self reliance and individual responsibility.

Those are the hallmarks of libertarianism, and part of the basis of our laissez-faire market system (economic liberty) and our individual rights (social liberty).

Subliminating said:
The problem with conservatism is that it does not take into full account the disastrous repercussions of the present level of government overgrowth nor the unreasonable burdens placed on the individual by such a government and its mismanagement of the resources of the people.

These things could not have happened under a libertarian system (as our system was designed), and they didn't. The system was changed, by allowing representatives to vote without direct conscent of their constitutents, and allowing the majority to remove the rights of the minority.

Under our system as designed, rights are UNALIENABLE, meaning, non-removeable or able to be made foreign to the individual. This is because we are born with these rights, these rights are our NATURAL abilities codified in law, based on the concept of self ownership and equal rights.

Subliminating said:
It is this complete disregard for the boundaries set forth by the constitution and the failure of government to adhere to its original purpose that has facilitated the increase of government dependence and brought about a continued decline of self reliance and individual responsibility.

Most definitely, agreed.

This was achieved by a conspiring, coercive two party monopoly eventually overtaking all of politics through media fraud, propaganda, and simple partisanship mantra.

Subliminating said:
When the founding fathers penned the constitution I cannot imagine that they ever foresaw a scenario in which Government would take control (ownership) of nearly all land and available resources and in which it would take the average American nearly half their life and a quarter of their income to acquire one of the most basic necessities, namely a home.

They did, and a couple quotes on that point....

“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.”
-Thomas Jefferson
(on the need for an informed, aware and skeptical public)

“I own that I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.”
-Thomas Jefferson

“That government is best which governs least, because its people discipline themselves.”
Thomas Jefferson
(on the nature of government, and its tendency to eat itself if not limited by those it is intended to serve)

“A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.”
-Thomas Jefferson
(the obvious danger of a true democracy, which is why ours was limited both through 3 seperate but equal branches, as well as by the individual rights which were unalienable and out of bounds for government regulation or infringement)

“To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.”
-Thomas Jefferson
(why taxation must be kept objectively pure to the limits of the scope of government and not venture into subjective values, as that act being inherantly unjust)

“And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the right of resistance? Let them take arms...The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.”
-Thomas Jefferson
(on the right of a people to remove a government of conscent, which ours was designed as, and is still limited to)

“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a monied aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs.”
-Thomas Jefferson

“The spirit of the times may alter, will alter. Our rulers will become corrupt, our people careless...From the conclusion of this [Revolutionary] war we shall be going down hill. It will not be necessary to resort every moment to the people for support. They will be forgotten, therefore, and their rights disregarded. They will forget themselves in the sole faculty of making money, and will never think of uniting to effect a due respect for their rights. The shackles, therefore, which shall not be knocked off at the conclusion of this war, will be heavier and heavier, till our rights shall revive or expire in a convulsion.”
-Thomas Jefferson

“Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence.”
-Thomas Jefferson

“Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.”
-Thomas Jefferson

"It has demonstrated that our prosperity rests on solid foundations, by furnishing an additional that my fellow citizens understand the true principles of government and liberty; that they feel their inseparable union; that notwithstanding all the devices which have been used to sway them from their interest and duty, they are not as ready to maintain the authority of the laws against licentious invasions as they were to defend their rights against usurpation." President George Washington, Sixth Annual Message to Congress, November 19, 1794.

"If in the opinion of the people the distribution or modification of the constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way which the Constitution designates, but let there be no change by usurpation; for though this in one instance may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed." George Washington, Farewell Address, September 17, 1796.

Sublimating said:
Garet Garrett wrote in 1932, "Mass delusions are not rare. They salt the human story." Indeed, mass delusions are no more apparent than in the realm of public policy and especially in the faith people have in their government to carry out functions designed to promote the public good. How else to describe the persistent belief that government is a good steward of resources of any kind?

“The federal government should not own land other than that authorized in the Constitution. It should not be dictating how land is used in any state, and it should not be enforcing its will over the authority of local elected officials.”

This government (Land Grab) overgrowth and (Monopolization) mismanagement of land and resources has in resulted in people having to enter into a type of indentured servitude in which they must assume a massive debt in order to accommodate a very basic human need.

No doubt, but this is the change in economics that has brought about the (a)increased types of claims that CAN attribute to public debt and (b)the right of government since, to lay direct tax upon the people. (c) It also ties into how people have less direct control to restrict government, while (d) government has overgrown its spheres of authority, (e) created and laid out new spheres of authority, and the (f) executive has nearly supreme rule over all authority, through executive order and emergency war powers.

Sublimating said:
Additionally, the over taxation and regulation of the people and the epidemic mismanagement of monetary resources by government compound the problem and together go a long way in explaining why a large percentage of Americans increasingly to look to government for various types of assistance.

Most certianly, no argument here. Government has invited the people to use the government as their own cudgel against a minority of their choosing, through the use of special intrest lobbies, partisan political groups and big-business lobbies. This is designed to divide and make the populace weak, turning against itself, while ignoring the enabler and executioner, the government and its elected bi-partisan elite.

Sublimating said:
There was a time in American history when government assistance was unheard of; it did not exist because there was no need or expectation of assistance from the government. As our government began to take more, tax more and regulate unnecessarily, people began to expect more of government.

No argument.

Sublimating said:
The basic argument here is not justification socialism but an explanation of how the unchecked ramped overgrowth of government has lead much of our population to view government as a type of surrogate expected to fulfill many of the obligation normally the responsibility of the individual. The conservative approach to government, which seeks to minimize the role of government and maintain minimum taxation of the citizenry, has failed. The current function of conservatism is the moderation of socialism. There can no longer be conservative government. It’s too late for conservatism.

This is where we differ. It is never too late for conservatism, in its original intent sense, not the modern terminology.

The people reserve the right to hold government accountable.
They reserve the means, through the ballot box (almost rendered useless), petition for redress of grievance (almost rendered useless) and through force, in the right to keep and bear arms (2nd amendment) and the right to republican form of government, which this government no longer resembles in the contract which defines the republic in question, and is still proclaimed to be the Law of the Land.(supplanted by U.S. Code in all but official terms)

The people of the United States still retain a Constitutional method of government reformation and the destruction of the current government, and it would be legally recognized on the world stage due to its legal backing, if done with legal observance.

I will admit, this task would be not only momentous, but also risky in every sense of the word, but never the less quite possible and quite winnable. (either with force, or without, situational dependent)

The resistance to socialism/communism/authoritarianism, won't be seen until government uses direct force against its own people through disarmament legislation, property confiscation (as we may see with the foreclosure epidemic), and mass tangible property and rights loss violations.

When a people has become this complacent and de-tuned through propaganda, usually only the cold hard execution of the act confronting them will wake them up.
I have no doubt however, they will wake up when this begins.

That will be when the value of conservatism shows its head again, most likely, in my opinion.

“None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free.”
-Johann Von Goethe

My biggest argument is over the value of conservatism, and what the word means.