Unions

[cronic]

I'm very interested in knowing what you all think about this.
Your views, input, feelings :ponder:

Im talking about Unions that represent workers
Teamsters, UAW, ect

Whats your view on them?
were they beneficial?
are they needed anymore?
Have they hurt or helped our economy?
Do you think they have any effect on our economy?
Are some unions ok and others bad?
Are unions as strong today as they used to be?

[Osborn F. Enready]

cronic said:
Whats your view on them?

They have become as corporatized and unsympathetic toward justice as the entities they attempt to address for grievance.

Localized, or individual business specific unions can provide valid, and viable value to workers AND employers.

Trade, national and international unions work against the individual goals of workers, and instead work toward a collective goal that leaves many individuals as fodder for the clash between union demands and employers ability and/or obligations. The larger the union, the more inefficient and ineffective it is at helping individuals.

cronic said:
were they beneficial?

They were in theory, and in practice for a short time, but quickly grew along the lines of "partisanism" and gained strength through division, more than unity of workers rights.

They have now become a tool of disenfranchisement, in my opinion.

cronic said:
are they needed anymore?

Individual labor unions, specific to each workplace are very beneficial. They can attain and access relevant data, and can act as an aid to make the company more profitable, and the employees more loyal to the companies goals as well as rewarded through honest and open communications between employers and employees.

cronic said:
Have they hurt or helped our economy?

They have been a major contributor to the downfall of our economy.

cronic said:
Do you think they have any effect on our economy?

Yes, and it could be positive or negative, depending on application and management.

cronic said:
Are some unions ok and others bad?

Yes.

In general, smaller unions have much more effect at protecting individuals through MEANINGFUL resolution agreement. Larger unions rely too much on litigation and extreme measures to bring about change, that is usually not reasonable, nor applicable to all involved in the effects of the changes.

cronic said:
Are unions as strong today as they used to be?

Stronger in some ways, weaker in others. They are stronger due to more income base, due to the national and international nature of some unions. (SEIU for example) They are weaker because many times when a worker NEEDS the union, they are wholesale disenfranchised, showing the weakness of the bind between union and employee.

Workers have a RIGHT to their opinions and they have a RIGHT to talk amongst themselves to address injustice if any exists, between employees and employer. They also have a RIGHT to address the employer about the source of this problem, and to demand full respect in addressing and resolving the problem to the BEST OF BOTH PARTIES ABILITIES. There are limits, both economic and social, that must be considered.

[cronic]

Have they hurt or helped our economy?


They have been a major contributor to the downfall of our economy.


:thumbsup: thats what I was looking for..
No doubt my friend, you know why the price of automobiles are way to high then don't ya? lol

[Scribbler1]

Have they hurt or helped our economy?


They have been a major contributor to the downfall of our economy.


:thumbsup: thats what I was looking for..
No doubt my friend, you know why the price of automobiles are way to high then don't ya? lol
Actually, Toyotas are made by non-union workers and they are a little more expensive than their American counterparts. And they are generally rated better than American cars of similar type.

Also, I agree with Osborn that unions, like most anything else, are both good and bad.
But as long as I see the heads of American companies taking home millions of dollars in perks and salary every year, even when the companies they head are suffering, I'll have to side with the concept of unions. They may need to be cleaned up, but without them I believe our cars would be just as expensive, but the employees would be that much poorer.

[cronic]

Your prolly right about that.. I just never buy Toyota..I always buy ford or chevy or dodge.
My dad wouldn't let me in the driveway either ...haha
he is a retired General Motors worker..[hr]

[lily]

Your prolly right about that.. I just never buy Toyota..I always buy ford or chevy or dodge.
My dad wouldn't let me in the driveway either ...haha
he is a retired General Motors worker..[hr]


Most if not all of your Ford, Chevy or Dodge was made in either Canada or Mexico........you're not getting a break in price.

As for unions.......I have memories of my dad being so excited and my mom being so worried when the union was trying to get into the shop where he worked. 8 kids and at that time if you got caught organizing you'd be out on the street.

My husband worked union all our married life, I never did. You can guess who's money and beneifts we're living off of now.

Even places that don't have unions are benifiting from what the unions offer, as most places have to try and keep up.

........but they're not the same as they used to be. NAFTA and shipping jobs out for cheaper prices doesn't give the unions much to bargain with......before when they were bargaining for wages, benefits, now they are bargaining just to keep jobs here and giving concessions to do it. Giving buyouts to the workers that have been there, making the bigger paychecks and getting the good benefits, and then hiring at lower wages and less......but at least they have a job.

[cronic]

Most if not all of your Ford, Chevy or Dodge was made in either Canada or Mexico........you're not getting a break in price.


yea.. so? that makes no difference.. my dad is 66 years old & retired from GM.. lol
psst..
plus he is 6' 4" tall.. 300 pounds and can sometimes be scary..laffin

plus
I still prefer them cars because 9 out of 10 times.. they are cheaper to fix and I also feel a since of loyalty buying Chevy, ford or dodge

Also... I know there is no break in price.. I learned that along time ago.

when i see and hear about these factories workers getting paid 30 + bucks an hour and having forever insurance and great pensions..They can get high ..smoke pot.. and drink beer and play cards at work every night of there lives except for the nights they don't work.

I know why the cars are sky high in price.. I think the General Motors corporate let the UAW union members get away with to much.. I really do..
If them people had to live even a little closer to how the average person has to live.. I bet them automakers wouldn't have to charge near as much for their products..

[Osborn F. Enready]

All good points cronic, Scrib and Lilly, many of which I agree with.

Employees in my opinion, should just form their own unions amongst themselves.
When I worked as a union steward for a small company (12 employees, not including office and management) I was very proactive on both sides, for the company when the intent was sincere, and for the employees when they had valid gripes, or mass agreement. I almost never used the union to address issues except when one side or the other demanded it and refused to negotiate in shop.

The big issue for me, and some of my other fellow employees was the issue of the Ohio Drug Free Workplace Program, which considers you guilty until proven innocent. The program provides kickbacks from workers compensation for employers who comply with the program voluntarily, enough to almost offset the cost of testing, but not the cost of production loss. Random testing was mandatory for inclusion in the program, which is basicly a "guilty until proven innocent" situation, as you have no right to refuse without being considered guilty.

In the case of accidents on the job, I and most other employees thought a test was a reasonable expectation, but random testing was unacceptable. The union refused to "make an issue" of this, when it is fully within the rights of the employees to demand it at least be addressed. The union didn't want the attention on the national level over that issue.

[cronic]

All good points cronic, Scrib and Lilly, many of which I agree with.

Employees in my opinion, should just form their own unions amongst themselves.
When I worked as a union steward for a small company (12 employees, not including office and management) I was very proactive on both sides, for the company when the intent was sincere, and for the employees when they had valid gripes, or mass agreement. I almost never used the union to address issues except when one side or the other demanded it and refused to negotiate in shop.

The big issue for me, and some of my other fellow employees was the issue of the Ohio Drug Free Workplace Program, which considers you guilty until proven innocent. The program provides kickbacks from workers compensation for employers who comply with the program voluntarily, enough to almost offset the cost of testing, but not the cost of production loss. Random testing was mandatory for inclusion in the program, which is basicly a "guilty until proven innocent" situation, as you have no right to refuse without being considered guilty.

In the case of accidents on the job, I and most other employees thought a test was a reasonable expectation, but random testing was unacceptable. The union refused to "make an issue" of this, when it is fully within the rights of the employees to demand it at least be addressed. The union didn't want the attention on the national level over that issue.


dude.. I know.. that sucks..
We had a few big wigs in our plant to that used to threaten long hairs and anyone else they knew that smoked with the random drug tests.

I worked on a machine that required the use of a carpet / utility knife alot.. I did a boo boo one night.. it was a good sized cut..On the thumb of all places yet... it was for sure stitches material... bummer thing to was it was the first hour into my shift that day.. I didnt cut it because I was stoned.. I cut it because i was in a hurry and wasnt watching close enough... still I knew.. if the wrong person seen my cut.. I could lose my job cause they would make me go to the hospital and then id have to go pee..lol..

I had to wrap that sob up and hide it for 7 more hours till I got off work to go get my stitches...
ah.. the good ole days when I had insurance

now i just wrap it up and never go..cost to much money
or i just rambo it..- NOT!!!!!

[lily]

yea.. so? that makes no difference.. my dad is 66 years old & retired from GM.. lol
psst..
plus he is 6' 4" tall.. 300 pounds and can sometimes be scary..laffin

plus
I still prefer them cars because 9 out of 10 times.. they are cheaper to fix and I also feel a since of loyalty buying Chevy, ford or dodge

Yeah, we also have a saying........buy what you make.:thumbsup:



when i see and hear about these factories workers getting paid 30 + bucks an hour and having forever insurance and great pensions..They can get high ..smoke pot.. and drink beer and play cards at work every night of there lives except for the nights they don't work.

Odd, I don't think my husband smoked pot, drank beer and the only time he played cards was on his lunch hour. Wait......you said your dad worked union too??

That's some weird sterotying.

I know why the cars are sky high in price.. I think the General Motors corporate let the UAW union members get away with to much.. I really do..
If them people had to live even a little closer to how the average person has to live.. I bet them automakers wouldn't have to charge near as much for their products..

I don't know about you......but I ain't living high off the hog.

[Keith Hamburger]

Well, I have to say I completely agree with Os, as usual.

My mother was a member of the pipefitter's union, and the oil and chemical worker's union. My brother is a boilermaker.

My brother claims that his union does what I consider the right answer for what a union should do.

A union should train and quailify the members of the union to guarantee that the peopleworking for them are the absolutely most qualified for the position, and, if the person is qualified, protect them from B.S. quibbles from management.

My mother's union, on the other hand, was clearly just a crap corporate instituion setup to protect those at the top. Protecting the members amounted to threatening lawsuits that ultimately resulted in working to keep everyone on the job, regardless of what kind of piece of crap they amounted to.

Unions, when they can guarantee the best person for the job, along with guaranteeing the security of that best person in the job, can serve an awesome purpose for workers, management and businesses.

When they serve as thugs on behalf of labor, using the muscle of the government and the courts to protect scum, they provide a major disservice to all involved.

Keith

[Scribbler1]

plus
I still prefer them cars because 9 out of 10 times.. they are cheaper to fix and I also feel a since of loyalty buying Chevy, ford or dodgeI used to feel the same way. I was always partial to Plymouths. Then I found out my Ford Ranger had a Mazda powertrain, the VW Beetle is made in Mexico and the Geo Metro was 50% Toyota.

But My Toyota Tacoma was made in California.

So, who is more loyal to American made products?

when i see and hear about these factories workers getting paid 30 + bucks an hour and having forever insurance and great pensions..They can get high ..smoke pot.. and drink beer and play cards at work every night of there lives except for the nights they don't work.You saw it yourself? Where?
I think that is something like an urban legend where a few bad employees are somehow made to represent the entire industry.
If them people had to live even a little closer to how the average person has to live.. I bet them automakers wouldn't have to charge near as much for their products..
Delaware has a GM plant and a Chrysler plant, and I know MANY autoworkers personally. They live a middle-class life and I don't know any who anyone would call anything different than "average".

Personally, I'd rather see the standard of living for other blue collar workers RISE to match the wages of autoworkers, not drag them down to the level of a lot of "living paycheck to paycheck" workers.

[cronic]

when i see and hear about these factories workers getting paid 30 + bucks an hour and having forever insurance and great pensions..They can get high ..smoke pot.. and drink beer and play cards at work every night of there lives except for the nights they don't work.

Odd, I don't think my husband smoked pot, drank beer and the only time he played cards was on his lunch hour. Wait......you said your dad worked union too??

That's some weird sterotying.


If them people had to live even a little closer to how the average person has to live.. I bet them automakers wouldn't have to charge near as much for their products..

I don't know about you......be I ain't living high off the hog.


I was union and I smoked.. drank and slept at work on nights.. but I only got to make 12 bucks an hour, not 30 .. not that the hourly wage has anything to do with it..lol

yes my dad was union to.. he didn't drink smoke or sleep.. he was a rarity at the general motors plant in our city.. But I know many of them there now.. that tell me first hand they do it.. MY girl friend works out there and tells me she sees it all the time to...

as far as living high off the hog.. hell ya.. The GM workers here are, if they aren't then they are drug addicts and alcoholics spending all there money that way.. most all my neighbors work there.. and they all have new cars and bags of weed all the time..trading out new pickups yearly... nice houses and boats...

maybe you live in an expensive area if your not living well at 30 bucks an hour..I would consider myself living high off the hog at 30 bucks an hour easily.. if someone cant.. then they are either spoiled or not very good at money management. If your hubby works at General Motors.. maybe he should request coming out here...

[cronic]

when i see and hear about these factories workers getting paid 30 + bucks an hour and having forever insurance and great pensions..They can get high ..smoke pot.. and drink beer and play cards at work every night of there lives except for the nights they don't work.

You saw it yourself? Where?
I think that is something like an urban legend where a few bad employees are somehow made to represent the entire industry.


lol.. hell yes I see it myself.. my neighbor works nights there.. sometimes when im uptown I visit him at work and get high with him..lol.. he showed me his make-shift bed he sleeps in... sure.. not the whole crew is doing these things.. but a good handful of them do.. they take turns.. they work an hour on and an hour off.. they sneak out of the plant everynite to.. I get all my weed from General Motors.. haha

last month they finally busted a few of them hunting at work..lol.. thats right.. the factory borders a woods and they was taking their guns in and poaching deer on the clock..
I hear all the good stories because so many friends of mine work there and my lady is a security guard there

[lily]

I was union and I smoked.. drank and slept at work on nights.. but I only got to make 12 bucks an hour, not 30 .. not that the hourly wage has anything to do with it..lol

yes my dad was union to.. he didn't drink smoke or sleep.. he was a rarity at the general motors plant in our city.. But I know many of them there now.. that tell me first hand they do it.. MY girl friend works out there and tells me she sees it all the time to...

I'm so confused........you smoke, drink and sleep, you're union, but you're not the "high paid union". Your dad was high paid union and he didn't do any of those things......and your girlfriend saw it. Hmmm...well, I guess you can't beat that logic.

as far as living high off the hog.. hell ya.. The GM workers here are, if they aren't then they are drug addicts and alcoholics spending all there money that way.. most all my neighbors work there.. and they all have new cars and bags of weed all the time..trading out new pickups yearly... nice houses and boats...

Sound like they are normal people.......some piss their money away and some save and improve themselves.......I honestly don't see what the union has to do with any of this.

maybe you live in an expensive area if your not living well at 30 bucks an hour..I would consider myself living high off the hog at 30 bucks an hour easily.. if someone cant.. then they are either spoiled or not very good at money management. If your hubby works at General Motors.. maybe he should request coming out here...

:madlaugh: You ever see the move 8 Mile? The trailor park they used in the movie wasn't in Detroit.........it was a mile away from my house.:madlaugh:

............but yeah, getting back to what you were saying........yep we're spoiled and pissed our money away.

We raised out kids, paid our bills, saved our money and don't live beyond our means.

Either way........you have a nice night.....I'm done being insulted.

[Voluntary]

I have nothing against voluntary unionism, but most unions are involuntary and a form of coercion. They use coercive collect power to capture a share of the market while raising wage above competitive levels. Simple economics will show that raising wages above competitive wages will come at the expense of the consumer, non-union workers, the owners, and the unemployed.

The fact that labor unions give issue compulsory union dues in order to maintain your job is an act of theft and violence. Unions have the right to voluntary organize, but they do not have the right to force demands upon others.

Unions do not survive well outside of heavily regulated and monopolistic markets, which are usually found in the public sector. That is why unions rates are much higher in the public sector compared to the private sector.

[Scribbler1]

when i see and hear about these factories workers getting paid 30 + bucks an hour and having forever insurance and great pensions..They can get high ..smoke pot.. and drink beer and play cards at work every night of there lives except for the nights they don't work.

You saw it yourself? Where?
I think that is something like an urban legend where a few bad employees are somehow made to represent the entire industry.


lol.. hell yes I see it myself.. my neighbor works nights there.. sometimes when im uptown I visit him at work and get high with him..lol.. he showed me his make-shift bed he sleeps in... sure.. not the whole crew is doing these things.. but a good handful of them do.. they take turns.. they work an hour on and an hour off.. they sneak out of the plant everynite to.. I get all my weed from General Motors.. hahaThen he should be fired, immediately. I realize one of the problems with some unions is that they protect these bums. That needs to be fixed rather than allowing these people to give the other workers a bad name.

If they get drunk or high on the job, they should be fired, period. No second chances. Busting a union isn't going to fix that.

[cronic]

I was union and I smoked.. drank and slept at work on nights.. but I only got to make 12 bucks an hour, not 30 .. not that the hourly wage has anything to do with it..lol

yes my dad was union to.. he didn't drink smoke or sleep.. he was a rarity at the general motors plant in our city.. But I know many of them there now.. that tell me first hand they do it.. MY girl friend works out there and tells me she sees it all the time to...

I'm so confused........you smoke, drink and sleep, you're union, but you're not the "high paid union". Your dad was high paid union and he didn't do any of those things......and your girlfriend saw it. Hmmm...well, I guess you can't beat that logic.

as far as living high off the hog.. hell ya.. The GM workers here are, if they aren't then they are drug addicts and alcoholics spending all there money that way.. most all my neighbors work there.. and they all have new cars and bags of weed all the time..trading out new pickups yearly... nice houses and boats...

Sound like they are normal people.......some piss their money away and some save and improve themselves.......I honestly don't see what the union has to do with any of this.

maybe you live in an expensive area if your not living well at 30 bucks an hour..I would consider myself living high off the hog at 30 bucks an hour easily.. if someone cant.. then they are either spoiled or not very good at money management. If your hubby works at General Motors.. maybe he should request coming out here...

:madlaugh: You ever see the move 8 Mile? The trailor park they used in the movie wasn't in Detroit.........it was a mile away from my house.:madlaugh:

............but yeah, getting back to what you were saying........yep we're spoiled and pissed our money away.

Either way........you have a nice night.....I'm done being insulted.


lmfao.. you haven't been insulted.. wtf..damn i must be a real monster tonight? maybe it's past your bedtime aye?.. take a chill pill..

show me, where have I said you or your husband was anything insulting . go back and re read it.. I never said anything personal about you or your hubby..and I never would.... I never said you or your hubby was spoiled or pissed your money away.. you said that, not me.
what I said was
I would consider myself living high off the hog at 30 bucks an hour easily.. if someone cant.. then they are either spoiled or not very good at money management.

look closely.. "someone".. not lily or lily's hubby

also... why do you think I was trying to show logic in my statements concerning workers at the General Motors plant in my hometown.

I was trying to justify my remarks that I don't feel some of these workers deserve that 30 bucks an hour.. because of how they are and what they get away with everyday at there workplace.

I wasn't tryin to give any logic.. I was only stating what I have experienced,, seen and done myself....and yes.. how you say it above in your first paragraph is exactly right.. but I intended no logic to accompany my statements.. I was only speaking fact.

I wasn't the high paid union man but I did all them things..
did I deserve my job back then.. hell no...
My union protected me from certain things and I got away with alot of shit.
my dad was the high end paid union man.. he worked hard and deserved his pay im sure.. ( sounds like your husband was like my dad if he didn't do all them bad things at work either ) but alot of people aren't like that here at the plant in my hometown. and I still believe that they are over paid in my opinion.
and what my girlfriend sees at that plant she can only record in her mind and her little black book. She isn't the police.. and its not her job to stop the drinking or smoking or sleeping or sneaking off .. its just her job to report it to the supervisors.. when they do nothing.. then.. whats anyone to do?

don't feel insulted.. I don't even know you or your hubby.. so why would you feel like I was thinking or saying anything bad about you or tryin to insult you
I didn't mean for you to take it personal.. really i didnt

Throws my hands up in the air..
Im sorry lily.

[4Reaganomics]

Unions

punishing consumers and businesses alike since their inception

They are a major factor to our economy not being as strong as it could be

They have ruined a good amount of urban cities and kept development our of the areas due to costs


In regards to vehicles, slightly over 60 years ago the Japanese were burying Americans alive when they got the chance.

I'll be damned if I allow their companies to see a profit from large purchases. I avoid their electronics which is difficult, and I wouldn't be caught dead in one of their vehicles, ever.

Its nice that three diamond tuna is making vehicles out of crushed tuna cans, but i'll stick true with the profits of my purchase going to the red white and blue

FoMoCo and GM for the win, and mine was made in America thank you very much

[Scribbler1]

Unions

punishing consumers and businesses alike since their inceptionAnd just how did they come to be in the first place? If many businesses had acted responsibly and taken the attitude that the workers were a big REASON for their successes, they would have treated the worker a little better and there would never have been a need for unions to begin with.

People didn't vote unions in for laughs, or because they had nothing better to do. They took a big risk even joining a union in the beginning, but their situation was such that it was worth the risk.

Treat a worker well and you would never see a union. Treat him like shit and he might just have a reason.

[Troubadour]

They have been a major contributor to the downfall of our economy.


To blame labor unions for any significant part of current troubles is an egregious distortion of reality. Their share of the market has been steadily and deliberately eroded over decades, from nearly half the workforce in the '50s to slightly more than a tenth today, and those jobs remain oases of middle-class expectations and job security in a laissez-faire wasteland of ever-declining American fortunes.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Troubador said:
To blame labor unions for any significant part of current troubles is an egregious distortion of reality.

I smell bias.

Troubador said:
Their share of the market has been steadily and deliberately eroded over decades, from nearly half the workforce in the '50s to slightly more than a tenth today, and those jobs remain oases of middle-class expectations and job security in a laissez-faire wasteland of ever-declining American fortunes.

This is NOT laissez-faire captialism.... nor free trade. This is over regulated, MONOPOLY CAPITALISM.

Please understand the terms.

Explain to me how in a FREE MARKET, WITHIN a nation, a monopoly can occur without law?

[AnnEsthesia]

Some unions are good, especially in areas where there is a lot of abuse and where people are not being treated well. In other areas and companies, unions are useless and pathetic and should be abolished.

My husband works in a union shop. They grieve EVERYTHING. I am not talking things that one should grieve, I mean, literally, everything. If the management makes them follow state safety procedures, they grieve it. If management gives them new uniforms they do not like, they grieve it. If they are late to work and are given a verbal warning, they demand to have their union representative from the main union come in and be there. It is just stupid, petty, childish and really they should be embarrassed with themselves.

[cronic]

Some unions are good, especially in areas where there is a lot of abuse and where people are not being treated well. In other areas and companies, unions are useless and pathetic and should be abolished.

My husband works in a union shop. They grieve EVERYTHING. I am not talking things that one should grieve, I mean, literally, everything. If the management makes them follow state safety procedures, they grieve it. If management gives them new uniforms they do not like, they grieve it. If they are late to work and are given a verbal warning, they demand to have their union representative from the main union come in and be there. It is just stupid, petty, childish and really they should be embarrassed with themselves.


Thank you
Being a Union Steward for over a decade between to union shops.. I seen that sh1t almost daily..
and here was the kicker so many times...
Id have a fellow worker come to me and say.. hey.. we, you and I are gonna get called in the office.. i came in late or I was absent without a doc slip....
so,.. next thing yano.. Supervisior comes.. grabs me and the other person.. we go to the office.. and the warning is handed to me and the employee...

The employee would whine for about 5 mins.. or less.. then I would do my job and ask him..

Do you want to fight this warning.. if so.. don't sign the warning.. I will sign protest.

Guess what.. the employee would sign it and say.. fuk it.. you win.. lmfao.. take his warning and his point and go to work..

Many of them just need a hand- holder when they get there demerits..
many times.. it was pathetic

[namguy]

I'm very interested in knowing what you all think about this.
Your views, input, feelings :ponder:

Im talking about Unions that represent workers
Teamsters, UAW, ect

Whats your view on them?
were they beneficial?
are they needed anymore?
Have they hurt or helped our economy?
Do you think they have any effect on our economy?
Are some unions ok and others bad?
Are unions as strong today as they used to be?


At one time in this country unions were good and also needed. In todays out look, at best their good but there're corrupt, but the what isn't?

[David]

I used to support unions, but now it is my opinion that the employer should be protecting worker rights. It's shouldn't be a choice ether.

The company I work for voluntarily protects worker rights and as a result we have no need to unionize and our stock just saw a 5-way split last year. To bad I wasn't working their back then (it's a privately traded company). :mad:

[brien]

Unions can be good for workers but they can end up destroying the very people they seek to protect. So what good is a union that, through all of its bargaining and demands, ends up being responsible for the closure of the very shop that provides its workers the jobs they pretend to protect?

The only place this doesn't seem to be happening is in the government schools because the Unions have the monopoly on the shop. But, we do see their results in financially poor schools, poorly educated students, and chaotic schools. Good job there, eh? What a joke, and the joke is on the American people.

[PatrickHenry]

Anybody unfamiliar with the historic struggle of labor against the power of big money needs to read this book: http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/c5/8f/06c6224b9da0e4fcc036b010._AA240_.L.jpg

Labor unions are the most prominent reason that America actually has a middle class.

You don't like labor? You are an elitist snob with hopes of being included in the manions and society of the wealthy. Fuck you.

But the unions founded to advance and protect workers' interests and welfare have often become corrupted by the wealthy bosses they were created to resist.

I was a member of the Carpenters for many years. When I came to Hawaii, the dues were a flat $40 a month. Soon they were increased to the point where they are now $25 plus 4% of the workers gross.

At current wages and a forty hour week, that figures to about $250 a month!

The Union is profiting hugely from the working men. The officials have enormous salaries, but when they attend local union meetings guess what they wear? That's right, worn jeans and t-shirts... Do you think they dress like that when they are chauffered to their offices on weekdays?

I dropped out some years back, but the wages of Carpenters have resulted in good wages for unaffiliated builders like me.

So I can't complain about the results of unionization in the areas where I have worked.

Can you tell that I have ambivalent feelings about unions?

[David]

Unions protect, the lazy. Capitalists oppress the workers. Socialists protect the workers.

Thus I'm anti-union and capitalism.

[Mayberry]

You don't like labor? You are an elitist snob with hopes of being included in the manions and society of the wealthy. Fuck you.
Tell us how you really feel, Pat! :clapper: While I am in perfect agreement with that statement, I must say that I am neither for nor against unions. I tried to organize a place I worked at once because the management were a bunch of totalitarian, tyrannical bastards. Crooked as hell, too. Seems to me that management of most companies are a bunch of self serving hypocrites (everywhere I've worked anyway, including the State of Texas who I work for now). It's always been the Hourlies vs. the Salaries. The Salaries will screw the Hourlies over any which way they can, all while raping and pillaging the company. The Hourlies are threatened with all sorts of nastiness for even thinking the word "us". If an Hourly stands up for a coworker he is looked at as a dissident and either run off or fired for some b.s. reason (carefully documented by the Salaries for their buddies in the HR department of course). Texas is a "right to work" state, meaning that if a shop does go union, everyone is not required to join. So unless you have an overwhelming majority in the shop that want to unionize, you haven't got a prayer. And the "instigators" will be hunted down and gotten rid of as I was(there's always a brown noser who's more than willing to help out the Salaries, hoping for some table scraps or something). So, as you can see, I am rather jaded toward the workplace in general. And being from Texas, unions are neither here nor there. I think unions are good to a point, but have become bloated and corrupted like anything else in the world today. I think this is the main driver behind the ever growing number of "self employed" and small businesses. Dilbert cartoons are funny because they are true. Corporate America sucks, unions suck, government sucks. I'm ready for a little cabin on top of a mountain myself, or "Some beach.... somewhere".

[Osborn F. Enready]

David said:
Unions protect, the lazy. Capitalists oppress the workers. Socialists protect the workers.

Thus I'm anti-union and capitalism.

LOL.......

Talk about confused....

[David]

Not really, no.

[Osborn F. Enready]

David said:
Not really, no.

Well, perhaps then you would like to debate something?

I was stating that toward the lies you stated about "socialists" caring about the "rights" of workers.

[Wndrtch]

I'm very interested in knowing what you all think about this.
Your views, input, feelings :ponder:

Im talking about Unions that represent workers
Teamsters, UAW, ect

Whats your view on them?
were they beneficial?
are they needed anymore?
Have they hurt or helped our economy?
Do you think they have any effect on our economy?
Are some unions ok and others bad?
Are unions as strong today as they used to be?


At one point in our history, Unions were esential, because common law did not have a mechinism in place to deal with workplace abuses. No we do, so I'm not sure how much Unions contribute in the posative.

If anything, I think collective barganing hurts hard workers, and rewards the lazy because it sees all workers as equals, dispite actual output results.

Also, I think the minimum wage has done most of the damage in creating a trend of sending manufacturing overseas. Why pay more for the same work?

[Osborn F. Enready]

Wndrtch said:
At one point in our history, Unions were esential, because common law did not have a mechinism in place to deal with workplace abuses. No we do, so I'm not sure how much Unions contribute in the posative.

Unions would be all positive if limited to the respective workplace, and not larger "collectives". Much like governments, unions are more reflective and in tune with their "represented individuals" the smaller it is, therefore almost always more "efficient" and valued.

Wndrtch said:
If anything, I think collective barganing hurts hard workers, and rewards the lazy because it sees all workers as equals, dispite actual output results.

That aspect is quite damaging, I would tend to agree. A good union recognizes that while all workers do have equal rights in the workplace, they are not equal in output nor should their wages be equal regardless of output.

Wndrtch said:
Also, I think the minimum wage has done most of the damage in creating a trend of sending manufacturing overseas. Why pay more for the same work?

No doubt. More than anything however, I believe the "equal trade" with countries who don't have "equal rights" is damaging our economic longevity the most.

There is also the issue of education failing those who are entering the field of working individuals, and not adequately preparing them for the "existing" system which they are being expected to function in. Our educational system since taken over by government, has been failing miserably since the late 60's early 70's.

[David]

Well, perhaps then you would like to debate something?

I was stating that toward the lies you stated about "socialists" caring about the "rights" of workers.

Lies? Under socialism, the workers run the show. How many more rights can you get once you're the ruling class?

[Moorington]

I think now and days, people almost need a 'union' to get what they want from 'their union.'

[Scribbler1]

At one point in our history, Unions were esential, because common law did not have a mechinism in place to deal with workplace abuses. No we do, so I'm not sure how much Unions contribute in the posative. It's like the government. Unions were vital to protecting the workers. Now, it seems to me, their leadership is soft, lazy and often in bed with the employers. Again, like government, power and greed has overcome much of their original mandate.

[Osborn F. Enready]

David said:
Lies? Under socialism, the workers run the show. How many more rights can you get once you're the ruling class?

You see the "ruling class" through a false prism based on economic classes as the root cause of disparity, instead of what it actually is, which is a "result", not a "cause".

Under socialism, you have no "rights", only "entitlements". "entitlements" can be taken away by the whim of a majority, whereas no majority can remove RIGHTS from a minority, without use of abject force, which is damning in both the legal system(in the U.S.), as well as the minority retains the legal right to defense against any majority attempting to make such claim, up to and including lethal force if necessary. Unalienable rights, as enumerated in the BOR, will be recognized whether or not it is government that is hearing the case, of government that you are fighting against. Unalienable rights are natural rights, inherant rights, and no system of government can lay claim to those until you have infringed those equal rights of another.

I question if you understand where individual rights collide with "socialist principle"?

Socialism can work in a voluntary system, but not as a "government force" backed system. It is the perfect breeding ground for black markets, which is a natural system much like capitalism, but WITHOUT regulation for individual rights enforcement against fraud, coercion, etc. which is far worse than true capitalism could ever be.

The black market exists in any government, regardless of "beliefs, creed, culture or manifest" which essentially serves to destroy any "forced socialism" ever created, either through corruption and greed or through saturation of the market to the point government is no longer "respected" and essentially effectively loses power.

[namguy]

I'm very interested in knowing what you all think about this.
Your views, input, feelings :ponder:

Im talking about Unions that represent workers
Teamsters, UAW, ect

Whats your view on them?
were they beneficial?
are they needed anymore?
Have they hurt or helped our economy?
Do you think they have any effect on our economy?
Are some unions ok and others bad?
Are unions as strong today as they used to be?

Unions are corrupt, of course this is old news. When I was in the Teemesters they were good to a 'point,' then you couldn't rely on them. Have they hurt the economy, no, I believe big business has hurt the economy. The unions may have played a small part but in the end it was the big run away corporations that were and still are in the pockets of the politicans. In my opinion, and I hate to beat a dead horse, but the Reagan administration started this country down hill economically, well he did alot more damage to the working man than that, but that's as far as I'm going into that.

No, the unions are not as strong today as they once were.

Are they needed? I'd say yes considering how the big corporations are in the drivers seat now.Do they still help...a little bit. The unions were at their best years ago when they first organized the workers, they were difinately needed then.

[Scribbler1]

Are they needed? I'd say yes considering how the big corporations are in the drivers seat now.Do they still help...a little bit. The unions were at their best years ago when they first organized the workers, they were difinately needed then.I agree. I believe the unions will be phased out in the near future, to be replaced by a business driven ruling class, and it will be brought about by the acceptance of the sheep. You can see that on forums such as this one, where right wingers complain about "all the money" union members make when they should be supportive of ALL Americans receiving a decent wage and not just union workers. These companies aren't broke as much as greedy.

This blind acceptance will of course slant the country even further in favor of the corporations and the worker will suffer. And that will cause a rise in union activity and the pendulum which never stops in the middle will once again swing to the extreme.

[MCTHOUSAND]

I agree. I believe the unions will be phased out in the near future, to be replaced by a business driven ruling class, and it will be brought about by the acceptance of the sheep. You can see that on forums such as this one, where right wingers complain about "all the money" union members make when they should be supportive of ALL Americans receiving a decent wage and not just union workers. These companies aren't broke as much as greedy.

This blind acceptance will of course slant the country even further in favor of the corporations and the worker will suffer. And that will cause a rise in union activity and the pendulum which never stops in the middle will once again swing to the extreme.

Big and small businesses produce jobs, not government, and not unions. Look at Ford, GM, and Chrysler, and the trouble they are in. Unions don't want to bare any of the burden. Years ago in Dallas, Braniff airlines was in bad trouble and asked their union workforce for help. No help, went out of business, workforce lost their jobs. Suck a business dry and it goes out of business.

[Scribbler1]

Big and small businesses produce jobs, not government, and not unions. Look at Ford, GM, and Chrysler, and the trouble they are in. Unions don't want to bare any of the burden. Years ago in Dallas, Braniff airlines was in bad trouble and asked their union workforce for help. No help, went out of business, workforce lost their jobs. Suck a business dry and it goes out of business.You are right. Unions DON'T want to bear any of the burden. That's not their job. If you look at modern history you'll see many industries treated their workers atrociously. They became right while the people who MADE them rich were, to put it kindly, "mistreated". This was the reason unions took hold.
You should note that these industries did NOT go belly up, but shared their profits, which again were in a large part created by the workers.
The CEO of a Fortune 500 company doesn't produce a quality product, the workers do. That alone should put the worker in a positive light.

Any given company, in this case manufacturing, has essentially three parts. The designers who create the product, the workers who build the product and the managers who keep it all running smoothly. Since it is a given that if any one of those three do a lousy job the company suffers, hence they are pretty equal. When the companies decided that workers were simply a resource to be used and then discarded, people decided to organize. And nobody wanted to make their employer go under, because they would mean THEY are out of work as well.

The bottom line is, if the unions want a fair share of the profits from what they make then I am in total agreement. Modern unions often do not do that, but it's only because the union bosses have gone corrupt and not because the idea is particularly flawed.

[davo]

I voted for both good and bad. The concept of trade unions is not new; in pre-Napoleonic Europe, trade guilds and cartels were in existence, and they came into existence for very much the same reason as trade unions. Later, their inefficiencies became apparent, and they became as problematic as any other business monopoly - You were forced to join a guild in order to perform a specific trade, and the guild overly inflated prices for the services offered. Setting up your own business that ran in competition to the guild was against the law.

Most guilds throughout Europe lost their power with Napoleon's conquests, as his laws codified freedom to trade. This is perhaps one reason why things went in the opposite direction - with the price of labor plummeting and people being forced to work long hours in factories for minimal pay.

The modern union movement helped fix the situation up again, but it later developed into a similar problem that previously existed - such as with 'closed shop' operations where one is forced to become a member of a union in order to work in a specific occupation.

Therefore it could be concluded that unions are useful for correcting situations where wages and conditions are substandard, but having unchecked power can create a situation where the market price of labor is monopolized in the hands of the union bosses.

[MCTHOUSAND]

Unions are corrupt, of course this is old news. When I was in the Teemesters they were good to a 'point,' then you couldn't rely on them. Have they hurt the economy, no, I believe big business has hurt the economy. The unions may have played a small part but in the end it was the big run away corporations that were and still are in the pockets of the politicans. In my opinion, and I hate to beat a dead horse, but the Reagan administration started this country down hill economically, well he did alot more damage to the working man than that, but that's as far as I'm going into that.

No, the unions are not as strong today as they once were.

Are they needed? I'd say yes considering how the big corporations are in the drivers seat now.Do they still help...a little bit. The unions were at their best years ago when they first organized the workers, they were difinately needed then.

I wonder what would happen if we got rid of the big corporations? I wonder what would happen if we got rid of big oil? Also big medicine, big sports, big rock stars. Get rid of big business. Everybody join unions and let socialists start up a workers paradise. Jail everyone who owned stocks. What we really need is another GREAT HELMSMAN to ensure purity.

[AlanC]

Unions represent less than 30% of American workers if I remember the numbers correcttly and most of the unionized workers are working for the government.

Unions have devolved into organizations that have only two main objectives. To protect and enhance the benefits of the most senior at the expense of new hires. And to protect the jobs of the least capable among their membership.

The less local and more national any union is the more detached they are from the interests of workers and the more they become gatherers of power and money.

The industries that are most dominated by unions are the ones that are having the hardest time surviving. The steel industry in this country was ruined by a combination of inept management and corrupt unions. Together they destroyed lives of tens of thousands of workers.

Overall, in this time in history, I would say they serve little useful purpose.

[namguy]

I voted for both good and bad. The concept of trade unions is not new; in pre-Napoleonic Europe, trade guilds and cartels were in existence, and they came into existence for very much the same reason as trade unions. Later, their inefficiencies became apparent, and they became as problematic as any other business monopoly - You were forced to join a guild in order to perform a specific trade, and the guild overly inflated prices for the services offered. Setting up your own business that ran in competition to the guild was against the law.

Most guilds throughout Europe lost their power with Napoleon's conquests, as his laws codified freedom to trade. This is perhaps one reason why things went in the opposite direction - with the price of labor plummeting and people being forced to work long hours in factories for minimal pay.

The modern union movement helped fix the situation up again, but it later developed into a similar problem that previously existed - such as with 'closed shop' operations where one is forced to become a member of a union in order to work in a specific occupation.

Therefore it could be concluded that unions are useful for correcting situations where wages and conditions are substandard, but having unchecked power can create a situation where the market price of labor is monopolized in the hands of the union bosses.

Well, I'm going going back as far as you have mentioned, but in the work places and trades of today, yes they're needed. If it wern't for the unions the working people would indeed work long hours WITHOUT overtime pay. Yes, the corporations would give a whole new meaning to the 'working poor.'

Thanks ronnie reagan, union busting republican.

[PatrickHenry]

The industries that are most dominated by unions are the ones that are having the hardest time surviving.
Well this is complete bullshit.

You yourself stated that unions are strong in government.

Can you point to a sector of our economy with more robust growth than government?

[AlanC]

I don't consider government an industry. Government produces no tangible product.

Government that is allowed to appropriate whatever share it desires of its people's produce will always to appear to grow until those it takes from can no longer survive.

As to my comment, consider the airline industry and the auto making industry.

[namguy]

Sounds like the old Russa under Khrushev!

[suralos]

Unions came about (very violently) in response to America's Gilded Age, when they made sense in purely humanitarian terms because American life then was much, much worse than it is now. Now, unions are bringing down the economy, chasing business out of the country, unintentionally inviting workers in who don't give a crap about unions because opportunity abhors a vacumn. The economic principles in what is going on are as valid as they are hated. Unions are killing the US.

[namguy]

Unions came about (very violently) in response to America's Gilded Age, when they made sense in purely humanitarian terms because American life then was much, much worse than it is now. Now, unions are bringing down the economy, chasing business out of the country, unintentionally inviting workers in who don't give a crap about unions because opportunity abhors a vacumn. The economic principles in what is going on are as valid as they are hated. Unions are killing the US.

It's not the unions, all pricing and wages are realitive to the economic pulse. Being oil is the biggest factor in this economey, gasoline is goes up on a daily bassis; no it's the run away oil companies are mainly to blame for this trouble we're in, mainly.

[ptif219]

I have been in unions and have been a stewart.At one time they were good and needed.

But they abused and misused their power and have become corrupt.

They are now just another leftwing oranization that takes your money and hands it over to the democrats.They are now a political group who cares nothing anymore about working class people.

[namguy]

I have been in unions and have been a stewart.At one time they were good and needed.

But they abused and misused their power and have become corrupt.

They are now just another leftwing oranization that takes your money and hands it over to the democrats.They are now a political group who cares nothing anymore about working class people.

Your pritty much right when you stated they're "a political group," that's hard to argue with there. "Leftwing organization," that I would question, but by in large your correct.

[Osborn F. Enready]

namguy said:
Being oil is the biggest factor in this economey, gasoline is goes up on a daily bassis; no it's the run away oil companies are mainly to blame for this trouble we're in, mainly.


I totally disagree here.

The blame for the oil monopoly, is on government regulation and restriction against alternative energy, in favor of big oil. Representatives were bought off by big oil, the bulk of government is run on oil and little to no matching funds is put into alternative energy like solar and wind power, both something every state in the union can benefit from one or the other (wind or sun).

No doubt, oil monopolies are the ones who initiated the action, but government allowed it to happen, and THEY are charged with protecting rights of individuals from force, fraud or coercion. They sanctioned the oil monopolies by and large, Republican and Democrat one more openly than the other.

Does anyone even mention the amount of oil being consumed by the military since the war started? Not usually. That is obviously also and additional cause to the price of oil.

[namguy]

I totally disagree here.

The blame for the oil monopoly, is on government regulation and restriction against alternative energy, in favor of big oil. Representatives were bought off by big oil, the bulk of government is run on oil and little to no matching funds is put into alternative energy like solar and wind power, both something every state in the union can benefit from one or the other (wind or sun).

No doubt, oil monopolies are the ones who initiated the action, but government allowed it to happen, and THEY are charged with protecting rights of individuals from force, fraud or coercion. They sanctioned the oil monopolies by and large, Republican and Democrat one more openly than the other.

Does anyone even mention the amount of oil being consumed by the military since the war started? Not usually. That is obviously also and additional cause to the price of oil.


I agree, the government and the oil companies are in bed together, I was saying that when regan was in office.

Off the subject matter here slightly, but I can remember a day, when I was a teenager, many moons ago, I left the house with five bucks and went all night! Oh well....

[suralos]

First, what are all your objections to proper spelling that distinguishes us from monkeys? You can't say, yeah this discussion board is a great idea but fuck the spell check. Please show some kind of respect in a realm that's in desperate need of it. Thanks.

I'm a rotten speller, but I pay attention to my misspellings and correct them because I want you to read what I post without wondering how stupid I am due to how stupid I am. I mean, WTF? Democracy does not imply power to idiots, and it gives them no license to denigrate discussion.

Now that that's been sent into the internet universe, we will likely all be attacked and destroyed, which is what you deserve for being so fukcing spoiled for so long.

This is a pickle. In fact, it turns out big oil has not achieved anywhere near the profitability of a lot of other multinational companies, but what sets them apart is complete dependence on their product. Who more than a junkie hates the candyman?

Domestic oil producers are not reaping the reward, by the way, due to restrictive laws on domestic production. There can't be a sweeter political dance than between the Bush gang and OPEC. What could big oil care if OPEC raises prices that benefits them?

Unions are history. However, if people can agreeably contain costs of the health care industry, you might have something of a model alternative for sensibly, fairly negotiating other things you have no control over. That's where I'd look, and there are a lot of doctors willing to listen who can spell! Health care weighs heavily on this country's economic viability, which is way more important than unions.

Was that politically correct? I hope that was politically correct.

[Buck Laser]

First, what are all your objections to proper spelling that distinguishes us from monkeys? You can't say, yeah this discussion board is a great idea but fuck the spell check. Please show some kind of respect in a realm that's in desperate need of it. Thanks.

I'm a rotten speller, but I pay attention to my misspellings and correct them because I want you to read what I post without wondering how stupid I am due to how stupid I am. I mean, WTF? Democracy does not imply power to idiots, and it gives them no license to denigrate discussion.

Now that that's been sent into the internet universe, we will likely all be attacked and destroyed, which is what you deserve for being so fukcing spoiled for so long.

This is a pickle. In fact, it turns out big oil has not achieved anywhere near the profitability of a lot of other multinational companies, but what sets them apart is complete dependence on their product. Who more than a junkie hates the candyman?

Domestic oil producers are not reaping the reward, by the way, due to restrictive laws on domestic production. There can't be a sweeter political dance than between the Bush gang and OPEC. What could big oil care if OPEC raises prices that benefits them?

Unions are history. However, if people can agreeably contain costs of the health care industry, you might have something of a model alternative for sensibly, fairly negotiating other things you have no control over. That's where I'd look, and there are a lot of doctors willing to listen who can spell! Health care weighs heavily on this country's economic viability, which is way more important than unions.

Was that politically correct? I hope that was politically correct.

Sorry. I jumped to a conclusion that wasn't warranted. But ordinary misspellings are usually tolerated, and some of us misspell for effect.

[namguy]

First, what are all your objections to proper spelling that distinguishes us from monkeys? You can't say, yeah this discussion board is a great idea but fuck the spell check. Please show some kind of respect in a realm that's in desperate need of it. Thanks.

I'm a rotten speller, but I pay attention to my misspellings and correct them because I want you to read what I post without wondering how stupid I am due to how stupid I am. I mean, WTF? Democracy does not imply power to idiots, and it gives them no license to denigrate discussion.

Now that that's been sent into the internet universe, we will likely all be attacked and destroyed, which is what you deserve for being so fukcing spoiled for so long.

This is a pickle. In fact, it turns out big oil has not achieved anywhere near the profitability of a lot of other multinational companies, but what sets them apart is complete dependence on their product. Who more than a junkie hates the candyman?

Domestic oil producers are not reaping the reward, by the way, due to restrictive laws on domestic production. There can't be a sweeter political dance than between the Bush gang and OPEC. What could big oil care if OPEC raises prices that benefits them?

Unions are history. However, if people can agreeably contain costs of the health care industry, you might have something of a model alternative for sensibly, fairly negotiating other things you have no control over. That's where I'd look, and there are a lot of doctors willing to listen who can spell! Health care weighs heavily on this country's economic viability, which is way more important than unions.

Was that politically correct? I hope that was politically correct.

Forget my spelling, it's not important.

I was a member of the Teemsters Union back in the early 70's, were they good...up to a certain point then they wern't worth a dame. Kind of like most people I know! However your correct, the day of the unions is gone, to a very large degree. This country has more problems than it will ever be able to straighten out. I feel bad for the young people, wow what their going to have to face.

Politically correct=B.S.

[suralos]

Sorry. I jumped to a conclusion that wasn't warranted. But ordinary misspellings are usually tolerated, and some of us misspell for effect.

All of this is program-related way before your misguided policing, BL. Pfft. Thanks, now bend over.

Hep us, hep us ah!

[namguy]

All of this is program-related way before your misguided policing, BL. Pfft. Thanks, now bend over.

Hep us, hep us ah!

[suralos]

Good thinking.

[namguy]

I didn't know that! Cool, thanks for the information.

[Rage]

Unions had their place in the world, and that time was long since gone. In FL we don't have any unions (besides the teachers, which is a dog with no teeth), we get along just fine; unions are just there to siphon money.

[namguy]

Unions had their place in the world, and that time was long since gone. In FL we don't have any unions (besides the teachers, which is a dog with no teeth), we get along just fine; unions are just there to siphon money.

At one time they were needed, but I'm under your thought. Now here, we have alot of problems with the teachers union, constant strikes every year. They only work nine months a year, they only work about four hours a day, full line of bennys, they have racket going.

[firefox]

Namguy it's more like 7 hrs a day but still. Not a full 8-10 hrs like the rest of us...

[namguy]

Namguy it's more like 7 hrs a day but still. Not a full 8-10 hrs like the rest of us...

....and not 12 months.

[Wndrtch]

I'm very interested in knowing what you all think about this.
Your views, input, feelings :ponder:

Im talking about Unions that represent workers
Teamsters, UAW, ect

Whats your view on them?
were they beneficial?
are they needed anymore?
Have they hurt or helped our economy?
Do you think they have any effect on our economy?
Are some unions ok and others bad?
Are unions as strong today as they used to be?

Unions were criticle at one point, because worker saftety was deplorable during the early half of this Century, and there was not oversight or recorse for the abused. But now we have laws in place to protect workers from abuse.

[Deadshot]

Sorry to say, but Wnd has a good point. Unions, most unions, simply don't have the power that they once had. I hope it changes to give the working man/woman a voice, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[namguy]

Unions were criticle at one point, because worker saftety was deplorable during the early half of this Century, and there was not oversight or recorse for the abused. But now we have laws in place to protect workers from abuse.

They're corrupt.
It's evolved to the point they're just about worthless.
When they were 'good' they were barely good, this I speak from my own experence. To say the unions were truly good for the working man we would have to go way back, and even then they were corrupt, but at least back then they did help the working people, today forget it.
My experence was with the Teamsters Union.

[namguy]

Sorry to say, but Wnd has a good point. Unions, most unions, simply don't have the power that they once had. I hope it changes to give the working man/woman a voice, but I wouldn't bet on it.

You said it.

[Wndrtch]

Sorry to say, but Wnd has a good point. Unions, most unions, simply don't have the power that they once had. I hope it changes to give the working man/woman a voice, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I don't like the collective-bargining aspect to a Union. It takes away all incentives to excell as an individual.

I also don't like that they force people to pay union dues, that are used for political purposes, not union purposes.

[namguy]

I don't like the collective-bargining aspect to a Union. It takes away all incentives to excell as an individual.

I also don't like that they force people to pay union dues, that are used for political purposes, not union purposes.

Your right, except, and I'm only speaking on behalf of myself, I had the incentive and strived hard to get ahead, but between the company and the worthless union I dead in the water. Now, screw them all, I work for myself.