The price of Patriotism

[Sublimating]

Is your allegiance to the flag or the freedom that it represents?
Is your allegiance to America or the values and ideals it stands for?
When you say God bless America is that blessing contingent upon Americas continued representation of the beliefs and ideas that you hold dear?

What is the price of your patriotism?

Your thoughts are appreciated.

[firefox]

I'm a member of the Free State Project (http://www.freestateproject.org/). Enough said 8-).

[Sublimating]

Thanks for your response Fire Fox, I looked at the site link and...I think (judging from the intent statement) that you fall into the allegiance to freedom category.

[Troubadour]

Is your allegiance to the flag or the freedom that it represents?


Those whose allegiance is to symbols would never admit it, and most are probably not even aware of it. For a personality that perceives symbols more strongly than reality, all the distinction does is make them question the patriotism of those who see it. You cannot reason with them, and they will not engage an honest question like this: It is immaterial to their power agenda. In truth, their allegiance isn't even actually to symbols, they merely find them ready tools of manipulation on behalf of their only real loyalty - themselves.

[PatrickHenry]

I'm no patriot.

I believe in individual freedom.

USA has a good constitution.

Too bad it's being ignored by the Washington suits.

[apdst]

Is your allegiance to the flag or the freedom that it represents?
Is your allegiance to America or the values and ideals it stands for?

Both and both.

When you say God bless America is that blessing contingent upon Americas continued representation of the beliefs and ideas that you hold dear?

Refer back to the first two options.

[Voluntary]

Is your allegiance to the flag or the freedom that it represents?Is your allegiance to America or the values and ideals it stands for?
My allegiance is to reason, ration, and enlightenment; characteristics which this country and Western civilization was founded upon.

[Go Fish]

Is your allegiance to the flag or the freedom that it represents?
Is your allegiance to America or the values and ideals it stands for?
When you say God bless America is that blessing contingent upon Americas continued representation of the beliefs and ideas that you hold dear?

What is the price of your patriotism?

Your thoughts are appreciated.


They are one and the same. The price of my partiotism is my soul. What don't you understand about patriotism:question: People put their very lives on the line for it, while others piss all over the very notion. What ground do you claim as your patriotic stronghold:question:

[Sublimating]

Is your allegiance to the flag or the freedom that it represents?
Is your allegiance to America or the values and ideals it stands for?
When you say God bless America is that blessing contingent upon Americas continued representation of the beliefs and ideas that you hold dear?

What is the price of your patriotism?

Your thoughts are appreciated.


They are one and the same. The price of my patriotism is my soul. What don't you understand about patriotism:question: People put their very lives on the line for it, while others piss all over the very notion. What ground do you claim as your patriotic stronghold:question:


If America were to invade a country without justification what would your patriotic duty entail? The patriotism of the Germans during world war two for example seem to require an allegiance to the country above all else.

Does your patriotism require you to side with America even when America is at fault? Is your allegiance to who is right or who is American? the two are not always synonymous as some believe. The American flag has not always represented freedom.

[PatrickHenry]

...Is your allegiance to who is right or who is American? the two are not always synonymous as some believe. The American flag has not always represented freedom.
And for that...you get a rep point...

[Wndrtch]

"I am not here to represent Leonidas; his actions speak louder than my words ever could. I am here for all those voices which cannot be heard: mothers, daughters, fathers, sons - three hundred families that bleed for our rights, and for the very principles this room was built upon. We are at war, gentlemen. We must send the entire Spartan army to aid our king in the preservation of not just ourselves, but of our children. Send the army for the preservation of liberty. Send it for justice. Send it for law and order. Send it for reason. But most importantly, send our army for hope - hope that a king and his men have not been wasted to the pages of history - that their courage bonds us together, that we are made stronger by their actions, and that your choices today reflect their bravery."

"It is not a question of what a Spartan citizen should do, nor a husband, nor a king. Instead, ask yourself, my dearest love, what would a free man do?"

Queen Gorgo, from the movie, "300".

[Elrathin]

I know I don't have to remind you wndrtch but Sparta is GONE. LOL

[Voluntary]

Your point Elrathin?

[Osborn F. Enready]

Subliminating said:
Is your allegiance to the flag or the freedom that it represents?

My allegiance is to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and the tangible, quantifiable individual freedom they define and guarantee.

Subliminating said:
Is your allegiance to America or the values and ideals it stands for?

My allegiance is to the guarantee of the republic, for which it ONCE stood, and the values enumerated in the Constitution and the BOR.

Subliminating said:
When you say God bless America is that blessing contingent upon Americas continued representation of the beliefs and ideas that you hold dear?

I don't say "God" bless anything, unless I am being sarcastic, and I point to religion for a majority of our misdirection, thanks to their incessant meddling in politics and use of faith to affect national and international policy.

Treaty of Tripoli, 1796:
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Subliminating said:
What is the price of your patriotism?

Life without individual liberty, is a sentence, not a treasure. A jail term, not a valuable state of potential for happiness.

My patriotism stops at untruths.
My patriotism stops at partisanship.
My patriotism stops at concentration of powers.

All three of these things are used to rob liberty from within, by the powers that be, while seemingly nothing is awry. More wrong we could not be.

“But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain -- that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist.”
-Lysander Spooner, 1870, in No Treason #6

“As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there's a twilight where everything remains seemingly unchanged, and it is in such twilight that we must be aware of change in the air, however slight, lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.”
-Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas


Troubador said:
In truth, their allegiance isn't even actually to symbols, they merely find them ready tools of manipulation on behalf of their only real loyalty - themselves.

If anyone is TRULY HONEST with themselves, all happiness and all loyalty originates in the self, so I don't think I quite understand your point Troubador?

The difference of the United States is that they made the concept of individaul rights, the COMMON BINDING THREAD, and made the focus a LACK of government intervention, not the increase of it.

No collective can find true happiness, if the individuals who make it up cannot attain it individually. Our government by design, intended to ensure that individual have the ENUMERATED, not GRANTED rights to attain it.

Subliminating said:
If America were to invade a country without justification what would your patriotic duty entail?

Demanding my country cease and desist immediately the actions they have undertaken.

Subliminating said:
The patriotism of the Germans during world war two for example seem to require an allegiance to the country above all else.

It did, as it was based on a strong sense of national socialism and patriotism, an almost elitism.

Subliminating said:
Does your patriotism require you to side with America even when America is at fault?

No, unless chaos and disorder around the world force self sustinence to take priority and it is a measure of live or die.

Sublimating said:
Is your allegiance to who is right or who is American?

My allegiance is to who is right, with who is American being a near contention for that spot, by nanometers.

Siding with who is right, if the person who is right does not respect individual rights, the right to life, property and happiness, is not beneficial to begin with, so the subjective term "right" and "wrong" don't really apply, since it is degress of both.

Sublimating said:
the two are not always synonymous as some believe. The American flag has not always represented freedom.

Many of us know this, some do but refuse to admit it, and some still live in denial.

No nation has a clean record, and no government has no blood on its hands.

Government IS EVIL, it IS FIRE, and without adequate checks on power it ALWAYS CONSUMES THOSE IT WAS CREATED TO SERVE.

[PatrickHenry]

No, Osborn.

Government is NOT evil.

Excessive government is an evil condition.

Without government there is chaos, the Law of the Jungle.

We need reform, not anarchy.

[Osborn F. Enready]

A necessary evil is how I see it Patrick.

Its necessity is relative to its power. Once a government grows beyond the point of maintenance by the people, it is a bigger problem that having none at all.

I am not an anarchist. I know why government has value, but that value is directly relative to the amount of power it holds, or doesn't hold.

As usual, its all about the limitations, and the strength of the limitations on government.

[Voluntary]

Without government there is chaos, the Law of the Jungle.

We need reform, not anarchy.


Anarchy is not the law of the jungle. I think you have been reading too much Lord of the Flies.

Anarchists just do not recognize the validity of governments since they view the government as an aggressive force, expropriating private property in the form of taxes, and exclude private industries in some sectors among other things.

I think you are wrong in saying that without government there is chaos. What is boils down to is a society's culture built off of reason and ration. A reasoned and intelligent society could function fine without an authoritative power. There would be no need for a government if a person was respected, his labor free, and the fruits of his labor belonged to him.

And sometimes, governments cause chaos and are a parasite to the society that they govern. In an example of benefiting without a parasitic government is Somalia: Better off Stateless (http://www.peterleeson.com/Better_Off_Stateless.pdf). Granted Somolia could probably even benefit more from a healthy rule of law, but sometimes the governments are the cause of the problems and not the solution.

Like you, I believe that the government is a necessary evil. I think its role should be minimal. I think coercion is evil, but a limited amount of coercion by the state may be necessary. The government must have some coercive power in order to prevent people from trespassing on each other. The government needs to have some power in order to remove obstacles that hinder peaceful and voluntary transactions of a society.

[firefox]

To add to Voluntary's point, there's a good book called Anarchy and the Law (http://www.mises.org/store/Anarchy-and-the-Law-P335C1.aspx), from the Independent Institute, that provides some philosophical and historical examples of how justice has/can be administered in a fair way, without the use of the modern state model. If you order this week you get a 15% discount using the coupon code "NEWMISES." I just bought a book on the Catholic doctrinal supports for voluntary transactions today.

[Go Fish]

Is your allegiance to the flag or the freedom that it represents?
Is your allegiance to America or the values and ideals it stands for?
When you say God bless America is that blessing contingent upon Americas continued representation of the beliefs and ideas that you hold dear?

What is the price of your patriotism?

Your thoughts are appreciated.


They are one and the same. The price of my patriotism is my soul. What don't you understand about patriotism:question: People put their very lives on the line for it, while others piss all over the very notion. What ground do you claim as your patriotic stronghold:question:


If America were to invade a country without justification what would your patriotic duty entail? The patriotism of the Germans during world war two for example seem to require an allegiance to the country above all else.

Does your patriotism require you to side with America even when America is at fault? Is your allegiance to who is right or who is American? the two are not always synonymous as some believe. The American flag has not always represented freedom.


Hypotheticals and unrelated historical references do not an argument make. If you thought you could slip in a Nazi reference without it being pounced on, you thought wrong. Hitler and his gang were socialists. Our modern democrats, if you will.
My patriotism demands that I evaluate the merits of each matter on facts, not innuendo. Not nuance. Not "feelings".
Now, which wars did we get into based on lies, deceit, and all that shit? Vietnam? Yeah, but after all, they attacked us first, right?
WWII? WWI? Grenada? Waco?

[Elrathin]

My patriotism demands that I evaluate the merits of each matter on facts, not innuendo. Not nuance. Not "feelings".


Really? How do you feel about flag burning? The reason those that oppose it is BECAUSE of feeling.

[Go Fish]

My PERSONAL feelings about flag burning are that I will risk arrest to stop it. I will physically intervene to do so. I put my body between that flag and our enemies for 20 years, and just can't see changing.

How do you feel about gay marriage? Massachusetts permits it.

[Elrathin]

My PERSONAL feelings about flag burning are that I will risk arrest to stop it. I will physically intervene to do so. I put my body between that flag and our enemies for 20 years, and just can't see changing.

Then that is feeling. I'm not saying that is wrong though, I'm saying laws shouldn't be based SOLELY on that. I happen to agree with you on the whole flag thing, but I am not willing to infringe on someones right to free speech about it.

Now if anyone tries to burn the flags I PERSONALLY OWN, that is a whole different story and I will shoot to protect my property.


How do you feel about gay marriage? Massachusetts permits it.


I'm glad, I hope all states eventually do it. There is not reason for keeping it illegal. My personal feeling is that states and the federal government should get out of marriage all together.

The simple fact is that being gay is not illegal, gays raising kids is not illegal, so there should be no ban on gay marriage either.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Great post, and well said Elrathin. ;)

[Go Fish]

My PERSONAL feelings about flag burning are that I will risk arrest to stop it. I will physically intervene to do so. I put my body between that flag and our enemies for 20 years, and just can't see changing.

Then that is feeling. I'm not saying that is wrong though, I'm saying laws shouldn't be based SOLELY on that. I happen to agree with you on the whole flag thing, but I am not willing to infringe on someones right to free speech about it.

Now if anyone tries to burn the flags I PERSONALLY OWN, that is a whole different story and I will shoot to protect my property.


How do you feel about gay marriage? Massachusetts permits it.


I'm glad, I hope all states eventually do it. There is not reason for keeping it illegal. My personal feeling is that states and the federal government should get out of marriage all together.

The simple fact is that being gay is not illegal, gays raising kids is not illegal, so there should be no ban on gay marriage either.


That's great, but what the hell does it have to do with this thread?

[Elrathin]

That's great, but what the hell does it have to do with this thread?


I asked you about flag burning (since the flag was mentioned in the OP) and then you asked me about gay marriage, so I replied.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Go Fish said:
That's great, but what the hell does it have to do with this thread?

Elrathin said:
I asked you about flag burning (since the flag was mentioned in the OP) and then you asked me about gay marriage, so I replied.


She was also calling you on your rant here:
My patriotism demands that I evaluate the merits of each matter on facts, not innuendo. Not nuance. Not "feelings".

About not making decisions based on feelings... and then saying this:
My PERSONAL feelings about flag burning are that I will risk arrest to stop it. I will physically intervene to do so. I put my body between that flag and our enemies for 20 years, and just can't see changing.


You think your feelings give you a right to PHYSICALLY intervene between a person and their own property, while burning a flag, because of what it MEANS TO YOU, and YOUR feelings?

I was applauding her ability to detect your hypocrisy and then call you on it.

What does that flag mean to you, if not respect for individual rights?

Are you entitled to some special treatment that other rights holding Americans aren't?

[Go Fish]

Go Fish said:
That's great, but what the hell does it have to do with this thread?

Elrathin said:
I asked you about flag burning (since the flag was mentioned in the OP) and then you asked me about gay marriage, so I replied.


She was also calling you on your rant here:
My patriotism demands that I evaluate the merits of each matter on facts, not innuendo. Not nuance. Not "feelings".

About not making decisions based on feelings... and then saying this:
My PERSONAL feelings about flag burning are that I will risk arrest to stop it. I will physically intervene to do so. I put my body between that flag and our enemies for 20 years, and just can't see changing.


You think your feelings give you a right to PHYSICALLY intervene between a person and their own property, while burning a flag, because of what it MEANS TO YOU, and YOUR feelings?

I was applauding her ability to detect your hypocrisy and then call you on it.

What does that flag mean to you, if not respect for individual rights?

Are you entitled to some special treatment that other rights holding Americans aren't?

I don't FEEL that I am willing to stop a flag-burning. It's a FACT.

[Elrathin]

I don't FEEL that I am willing to stop a flag-burning. It's a FACT.


That's fine, but don't act like your patriotism is based on rationalism and not on feeling as you have said.

Osborne, I am a Male not Female hehehe.

[Sublimating]

Is your allegiance to the flag or the freedom that it represents?
Is your allegiance to America or the values and ideals it stands for?
When you say God bless America is that blessing contingent upon Americas continued representation of the beliefs and ideas that you hold dear?

What is the price of your patriotism?

Your thoughts are appreciated.


They are one and the same. The price of my patriotism is my soul. What don't you understand about patriotism:question: People put their very lives on the line for it, while others piss all over the very notion. What ground do you claim as your patriotic stronghold:question:


If America were to invade a country without justification what would your patriotic duty entail? The patriotism of the Germans during world war two for example seem to require an allegiance to the country above all else.

Does your patriotism require you to side with America even when America is at fault? Is your allegiance to who is right or who is American? the two are not always synonymous as some believe. The American flag has not always represented freedom.


Hypotheticals and unrelated historical references do not an argument make. If you thought you could slip in a Nazi reference without it being pounced on, you thought wrong. Hitler and his gang were socialists. Our modern democrats, if you will.
My patriotism demands that I evaluate the merits of each matter on facts, not innuendo. Not nuance. Not "feelings".
Now, which wars did we get into based on lies, deceit, and all that sh1t? Vietnam? Yeah, but after all, they attacked us first, right?
WWII? WWI? Grenada? Waco?

Sorry to bust your bubble but the flag is a symbol bud plain and simple. It stands for America and has not always represented freedom. You see freedom is its own and not yours to define. The counterfeit version of freedom that this flag has stood for in past times thankfully has been replaced with a more genuine article.

This is a simple question:
" Does your patriotism require you to side with America even when America is at fault? Is your allegiance to who is right or who is American"

As for what I thought, I'll tell you what I think. I think that times have come and may come when America goes the wrong way and when that time came and if it comes again some Americans patriotism called for and will call for them to stand by idly or root the country on in its error.

This type of patriotism does not make America stronger or better. It weakens America. It is patriotism at too high a price because it cost the giver their honor,integrity and righteousness.

What is the price of your patriotism?

[Osborn F. Enready]

Elrathin said:
Osborne, I am a Male not Female hehehe.

Oh my, so sorry, my full and most sincere apology....

It is often tough to tell just from screen names and posts about these things.....

Again, very sorry, no insult intended in any way. (not that it would be, but you know what I mean)

[Osborn F. Enready]

Go Fish said:
I don't FEEL that I am willing to stop a flag-burning. It's a FACT.

Not on my property.....

I may burn one now just to prove it..... Shall I send pics?

I served under that flag the same as you did, you're rights do not surpass mine.... and service plays no role in it at any rate.