Obama hits it out of the park!

[Buck Laser]

I think that Senator Obama may have given the best speech of his career today in Philadelphia. He addressed questions of racism and discriminations head on without apology. He went further to link much of the concern and fear felt by members of the white community to the same things that black people worry about--jobs going overseas, profits placed above people, and the excessive influence wielded by lobbyists in Washington.

He also provide a context in which Rev. Wright's sermons could be understood, and criticized Wright for his assumption that society and culture cannot change. Therein, he suggested, lies the major difference between his campaign and the way Wright sees the world: Obama sees beyond the dogmas of the ancient past (to borrow a phrase) to an America wherein all of us acknowledge our common cause.

I suggest that every single person on this forum who's expressed concern about Obama and his former pastor take the opportunity to watch or read his speech. I don't have a link because it's too soon after the speech to be on YouTube--but it'll be there.

Incidentally, I haven't take the time to see what the talking heads have to say...I don't really care what they think. I heard it, and I can make up my own mind about it.

[Easy90]

So, when his minister said "God Damn America!" and after 9-11..."The chickens have come home to roost!" how did Barack explain that, from the Black perspective, that is?

[Buck Laser]

So, when his minister said "God Damn America!" and after 9-11..."The chickens have come home to roost!" how did Barack explain that, from the Black perspective, that is?

You didn't listen or watch, did you? Go watch, read or listen and get back to me.

[Easy90]

Sorry...but I don't allow myself to "be directed" by the likes of you. If you can't explain it, I will just assume you didn't watch it either.

[potter]

So, when his minister said "God Damn America!" and after 9-11..."The chickens have come home to roost!" how did Barack explain that, from the Black perspective, that is?



Maybe sometimes it needs to be said. America ain't the end all, not by a long shot. There's plenty of corruption and our system of government leaves a lot to be desired. I'd like to see the mafia out of our government and politics and the will of the people put in place....but that's kinda what this election is coming down to.

[Easy90]

The "mafia?" Could you explain that one please?

[potter]

I think that Senator Obama may have given the best speech of his career today in Philadelphia. He addressed questions of racism and discriminations head on without apology. He went further to link much of the concern and fear felt by members of the white community to the same things that black people worry about--jobs going overseas, profits placed above people, and the excessive influence wielded by lobbyists in Washington.

He also provide a context in which Rev. Wright's sermons could be understood, and criticized Wright for his assumption that society and culture cannot change. Therein, he suggested, lies the major difference between his campaign and the way Wright sees the world: Obama sees beyond the dogmas of the ancient past (to borrow a phrase) to an America wherein all of us acknowledge our common cause.

I suggest that every single person on this forum who's expressed concern about Obama and his former pastor take the opportunity to watch or read his speech. I don't have a link because it's too soon after the speech to be on YouTube--but it'll be there.

Incidentally, I haven't take the time to see what the talking heads have to say...I don't really care what they think. I heard it, and I can make up my own mind about it.



I read the speach and it was typical Obama, well thought out and articulate. The crackers of course will never accept anything a black man has to say, they'd rather form lynch mobs.

No racial slurs of any kind will be tolerated.

[potter]

The "mafia?" Could you explain that one please?


Think of it as a metaphor for the total corporate control of our government and politics.

[Truth_and_Power]

The chickens have come home to roost!"


I think that's fairly self explanatory..

[suedanim]

I did watch it in its entirety. And I agree heartily with Buck Laser.

Now its time to turn the microscope on white candidates, Clinton and McCain and lets find some associate, perhaps even themselves, who have made racist remarks or performed some racist act that deserves AT LEAST the same level of expectation for explaination.

I doubt seriously either one can rise to the occasion. Instead, we would be treated to the usual huff and puff and no substance.

:grrrr:

It appears we have a truely Great Communicator and a man of high integrity with a true sense of personal responsibility. So much so, he exhibited great courage in giving that speech in the first place.

I strongly suggest all listen to that speech, not just read it or listen to sound bites of it and the talking heads explain it to you.

[Buck Laser]

Sorry...but I don't allow myself to "be directed" by the likes of you. If you can't explain it, I will just assume you didn't watch it either.

It's just fine with me if you choose not to look at the speech. I've already figured that you made up your mind when you were about 14. I s'pose Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh will give you some talking points to diss it. In the meantime, most people with an interest in the election process will want to listen to the speech.

[lawless168]

Unless the guy denounced the raciest preacher and disassociates himself & his family with this guy and his associates, I will not vote for him. Reverse racism is racist any way you look at it and its two steps backwards, America can do better.

We'll see what happens in the coming months...

[preservanation]

I'll join those who that think this speech is bunk.
Obama is not the agent of change, he is the product of it!
Bah.

[nevadamedic]

I think that Senator Obama may have given the best speech of his career today in Philadelphia. He addressed questions of racism and discriminations head on without apology. He went further to link much of the concern and fear felt by members of the white community to the same things that black people worry about--jobs going overseas, profits placed above people, and the excessive influence wielded by lobbyists in Washington.

He also provide a context in which Rev. Wright's sermons could be understood, and criticized Wright for his assumption that society and culture cannot change. Therein, he suggested, lies the major difference between his campaign and the way Wright sees the world: Obama sees beyond the dogmas of the ancient past (to borrow a phrase) to an America wherein all of us acknowledge our common cause.

I suggest that every single person on this forum who's expressed concern about Obama and his former pastor take the opportunity to watch or read his speech. I don't have a link because it's too soon after the speech to be on YouTube--but it'll be there.

Incidentally, I haven't take the time to see what the talking heads have to say...I don't really care what they think. I heard it, and I can make up my own mind about it.


He also showed people he is a liar. He has said for a while now he was never at a sermon that the good rev. gave when he made racist or other remarks like this. People realized that Obama has been a faithful follower for over twenty years and knew he was lying. Now today he said he was present at sermons where things like that was said but he disagreed with it.

I don't get it, you people are being lied to and are being taken advantage of and loving every minute of it.

[suedanim]

Unless the guy denounced the raciest preacher and disassociates himself & his family with this guy and his associates, I will not vote for him. Reverse racism is racist any way you look at it and its two steps backwards, America can do better.

We'll see what happens in the coming months...


Whatever will you do when equal inflammatory or objectionable speech is revealed in associates of other candidates?

What a silly knee jerk reaction. imo... people who are stating they will refuse to vote for Obama over this were looking of for a reason anyway.. and likely were not going to vote for him in the first place.

Fortunately for the rest of us in America though, the majority will prevail and Barrack Obama will overcome this smearing and go on the sit as CIC in the Oval Office in 2009.

If not.... do you REALLY want Hillary Clinton as CIC???

[PostmodernProphet]

I would say it's pretty simple.....the speech wasn't intended to convince conservatives to vote for Obama.....that would be an impossible effort.....it was intended to convince liberals to vote for Obama instead of Clinton, and in that light, I would say the speech was a success......

[nevadamedic]

Unless the guy denounced the raciest preacher and disassociates himself & his family with this guy and his associates, I will not vote for him. Reverse racism is racist any way you look at it and its two steps backwards, America can do better.

We'll see what happens in the coming months...


Obama will never denounce him, he is like family. Also why denounce someone who feels the same way you do? Just like he wouldn't commit on the Leader of Islam deal during the debate with Clinton.

Atleast Clinton is playing it straight and denouncing people like that former Vice Presidential Candidate who was accurate in her interview about Obama. Eventhough she was accurate it was not apropriate for her to say being part of Clinton's campaign. I am starting to really respect Hillary.

[suedanim]

A Vote For Obama Is A Vote For Osama!

With a signature line like that, how do you expect anyone to take anything you say seriously.

"bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" McCain will not survive 4 years, but in his time in office, should by some hocus pocus he become CIC, he will insure the deaths of many more Americans.

Do you really want the Clintons back in the WH?

Face it... the majority of America is not with you on Obama. The majority want him as the next leader of this country. But should the smears from the Clinton establishment and the right have its intended affect... you will not be happy with the outcome.

[nevadamedic]

A Vote For Obama Is A Vote For Osama!

With a signature line like that, how do you expect anyone to take anything you say seriously.

"bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" McCain will not survive 4 years, but in his time in office, should by some hocus pocus he become CIC, he will insure the deaths of many more Americans.

Do you really want the Clintons back in the WH?

Face it... the majority of America is not with you on Obama. The majority want him as the next leader of this country. But should the smears from the Clinton establishment and the right have its intended affect... you will not be happy with the outcome.


The majority of America is for Obama? That's why he is losing in the polls against Hillary in Penn. and in a tie with Senator McCain nationally? That is why his numbers have seriously dropped in the last two weeks or so? C'mon, open your eyes, Obama will never be elected and if for some reason he is (The only way that would happen is if Senator McCain croaked on the campaign trail) we would be doomed.

It wouldn't bother me to have the Clinton's back in the White House at all. With the climate we are in today, we need someone with experience not someone who has only been a Senator for one term and spend 90% of his time as a Senator campaigning.

As far as Bombing Iran? Hell yes we should. We need to do everything in our power to ensure they don't obtain a nuclear weapon. They will use it to control the Middle East or strike us with it. Not to mention all the international treaties they have violated over the past 30 years. Iran is helping our enemies in Iraq and Afganistan, they are hurting the people of Israel, they are commiting crimes against America and it's allies (English sailors are a perfect example), they are completly unstable. I can keep going if you want.

[4Reaganomics]

Rasmussen has McCain up 48-42 in the General. Rasmussen is usually fairly accurate and respected on both sides of the aisle.

Some people just don't do their homework.

[Trish]

I think that Senator Obama may have given the best speech of his career today in Philadelphia. He addressed questions of racism and discriminations head on without apology. He went further to link much of the concern and fear felt by members of the white community to the same things that black people worry about--jobs going overseas, profits placed above people, and the excessive influence wielded by lobbyists in Washington.

He also provide a context in which Rev. Wright's sermons could be understood, and criticized Wright for his assumption that society and culture cannot change. Therein, he suggested, lies the major difference between his campaign and the way Wright sees the world: Obama sees beyond the dogmas of the ancient past (to borrow a phrase) to an America wherein all of us acknowledge our common cause.

I suggest that every single person on this forum who's expressed concern about Obama and his former pastor take the opportunity to watch or read his speech. I don't have a link because it's too soon after the speech to be on YouTube--but it'll be there.

Incidentally, I haven't take the time to see what the talking heads have to say...I don't really care what they think. I heard it, and I can make up my own mind about it.



Buck,

I did watch the Senator's speech in its entirety. As always, I was impressed with his style and conviction. Without a doubt the senator's oratory skills are superb. I did have a couple of questions regarding the pastor situation which were not addressed in the speech.

Having been raised in rural Texas, I have attended black churches on numerous occasions and have long been aware of the differences in style of delivery and focus in a predominately black church versus that of a predominately white church. From a racial standpoint, I understand Rev. Wright's perspective and sermon focus perhaps better than some whites who have never attended a predominately black service. The racial component in Rev. Wright's sermons were never as big a concern to me as the anti-American content. While Senator Obama certainly addressed the race issues, I did not find the anti-American issues sufficiently addressed.

Rev. Wright's God "damn" America sermon is easily understood if one has ever attended any religious service where the pastor is preaching about accountability to God's instuctions - regardless of race or denomination. Christians are called to obedience first and foremost, so any nation that purports to be a "Christian" nation is called to obedience to God's word as well. The God "damn" language is therefore more of a warning that God's judgment will indeed be brought to bear upon the US if and when it is in disobedience to the word of God just as Israel was judged and found wanting in the Old Testament times. While Rev. Wright's choice of language was disturbing and shocking coming from the pulpit - the message it represents is not all that shocking. Had Rev. Wright used less shocking words I doubt that message would be an issue.

However, it's the statements that the US deserved 9/11, the contention that the government deliberately introduced the Aids virus into the population, the reverend's association with and admiration of Farrakhan, the contention that if WMD's were not discovered in Iraq the government would "plant" WMD's there (which has not happened), which give me pause, but not from a racial standpoint. Senator Obama's speech did indeed address the racial components of Rev. Wright's comments, but from what I heard did not address the anti-American components at all. Those anti-American components are the ones that cause me grave concern since the Senator is running to become President. Presidential candidates associating with and lending any type of credence, even remotely, to anyone espousing such anti-American sentiments should be of grave concern to every American. To me this is not a white/black issue or a religious issues but rather a patriotism issue.

Given that the Obama's have been members of Rev. Wright's congregation for many years, it is inconceivable to me that they did not know of the Rev.'s viewpoints or could not envision that those viewpoints could be devisive on a much wider level than racial. I will say, however, that Mrs. Obama's comments about being proud of America "for the first time" in her adult life now takes on deeper significance for me. I view that comment now as much more compelling than I did initially.

I will agree with one of the Senator's comments in his speech. America is not perfect, but it can be perfected. I have often said something similar - that while we do not always live up to the ideals upon which this country was founded - we keep trying to live up to them.

Senator Obama gave a brilliant speech. I would just be more comfortable had he addressed the entire range of issues presented by his association with Rev. Wright instead of attempting to limit them solely to a racial issue. The racial issue is there, of course - it just isn't the only issue, nor from my perspective, the most important issue. Limiting his response to the racial component does not relieve my concerns in their entirety. If Senator Obama cannot address those other issues to my satisfaction, I'll most certainly have to continue my support for Senator Clinton.

[4Reaganomics]

Exactly, he did not address the comments, nor did he say why he remained a member of this man's church and a close friend after a long history of Anti-American rhetoric.

I've watched the video twice now, and I don't see where he explains the answers to any of the questions that I have about this situation.

[nevadamedic]

A Vote For Obama Is A Vote For Osama!

With a signature line like that, how do you expect anyone to take anything you say seriously.

"bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" McCain will not survive 4 years, but in his time in office, should by some hocus pocus he become CIC, he will insure the deaths of many more Americans.

Do you really want the Clintons back in the WH?

Face it... the majority of America is not with you on Obama. The majority want him as the next leader of this country. But should the smears from the Clinton establishment and the right have its intended affect... you will not be happy with the outcome.


Also how is a vote for Obama is a vote for Osama not accurate?

Obama wants to reduce our military. Pull us out of Afganistan and Iraq, start disarming a lot of our military equipment like Nuclear Warheads, mothball a lot of our military equipment, cut back on projects to develop new military equipment and technology like the new class of Aircraft Carriers, Submarines and aircraft.

He also wants to use diplomacy with countries like Iran which we have tried for over 30 years and it hasn't worked. We couldn't even use it with Afganistan to get them to turn over Bin Laden. Sometimes Diplomacy does no work, we need our military and we need the latest technology and we need them armed with the best and strongest weapons.

If Obama had experience he would understand that and realize his plan puts America at risk of another 9/11.

[Easy90]

I think the tin-foil hat crowd is really stirred up here. "Mafia?" "Chickens coming home to roost? " "God DAMN America?" "U.S. of KKK!?" I am thinking that if this kind of wacky mentality is really pervasive among Democrats, (which I doubt it really is)...McCain can't lose.

The following is a list of some of the inflammatory and anti-American comments made by Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr., during his sermons at Trinity United Church of Christ.

– September 2001: “The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied.”

– September 2001: “We bombed Hiroshima. We bombed Nagasaki. And we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon and we never batted an eye.”

– September 2001: “We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because of stuff we have done overseas is now brought back into our own backyard. America is chickens coming home to roost.”

– April 2003: “The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes three-strike laws and wants them to sing God Bless America. No! No No! God damn America … for killing innocent people. God damn America for threatening citizens as less than humans. God damn America as long as she tries to act like she is God and supreme.”

– December 2007: “Barack knows what it means living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich, white people. Hillary would never know that.”

– December 2007: “Hillary ain’t never been called a nigger. Hillary has never had a people defined as a non-person.”

– Jan. 13, 2008: “Hillary is married to Bill, and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t! Bill did us, just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was riding dirty.”

– “Fact number one: We’ve got more black men in prison than there are in college. … Fact number two: Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run.”

– “We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns and the training of professional killers. … We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God. … We conducted radiation experiments on our own people. … We care nothing about human life if the ends justify the means.
And … And … And! God! Has got! To be sick! Of this shit!”

[nevadamedic]

I think that Senator Obama may have given the best speech of his career today in Philadelphia. He addressed questions of racism and discriminations head on without apology. He went further to link much of the concern and fear felt by members of the white community to the same things that black people worry about--jobs going overseas, profits placed above people, and the excessive influence wielded by lobbyists in Washington.

He also provide a context in which Rev. Wright's sermons could be understood, and criticized Wright for his assumption that society and culture cannot change. Therein, he suggested, lies the major difference between his campaign and the way Wright sees the world: Obama sees beyond the dogmas of the ancient past (to borrow a phrase) to an America wherein all of us acknowledge our common cause.

I suggest that every single person on this forum who's expressed concern about Obama and his former pastor take the opportunity to watch or read his speech. I don't have a link because it's too soon after the speech to be on YouTube--but it'll be there.

Incidentally, I haven't take the time to see what the talking heads have to say...I don't really care what they think. I heard it, and I can make up my own mind about it.



Buck,

I did watch the Senator's speech in its entirety. As always, I was impressed with his style and conviction. Without a doubt the senator's oratory skills are superb. I did have a couple of questions regarding the pastor situation which were not addressed in the speech.

Having been raised in rural Texas, I have attended black churches on numerous occasions and have long been aware of the differences in style of delivery and focus in a predominately black church versus that of a predominately white church. From a racial standpoint, I understand Rev. Wright's perspective and sermon focus perhaps better than some whites who have never attended a predominately black service. The racial component in Rev. Wright's sermons were never as big a concern to me as the anti-American content. While Senator Obama certainly addressed the race issues, I did not find the anti-American issues sufficiently addressed.

Rev. Wright's God "damn" America sermon is easily understood if one has ever attended any religious service where the pastor is preaching about accountability to God's instuctions - regardless of race or denomination. Christians are called to obedience first and foremost, so any nation that purports to be a "Christian" nation is called to obedience to God's word as well. The God "damn" language is therefore more of a warning that God's judgment will indeed be brought to bear upon the US if and when it is in disobedience to the word of God just as Israel was judged and found wanting in the Old Testament times. While Rev. Wright's choice of language was disturbing and shocking coming from the pulpit - the message it represents is not all that shocking. Had Rev. Wright used less shocking words I doubt that message would be an issue.

However, it's the statements that the US deserved 9/11, the contention that the government deliberately introduced the Aids virus into the population, the reverend's association with and admiration of Farrakhan, the contention that if WMD's were not discovered in Iraq the government would "plant" WMD's there (which has not happened), which give me pause, but not from a racial standpoint. Senator Obama's speech did indeed address the racial components of Rev. Wright's comments, but from what I heard did not address the anti-American components at all. Those anti-American components are the ones that cause me grave concern since the Senator is running to become President. Presidential candidates associating with and lending any type of credence, even remotely, to anyone espousing such anti-American sentiments should be of grave concern to every American. To me this is not a white/black issue or a religious issues but rather a patriotism issue.

Given that the Obama's have been members of Rev. Wright's congregation for many years, it is inconceivable to me that they did not know of the Rev.'s viewpoints or could not envision that those viewpoints could be devisive on a much wider level than racial. I will say, however, that Mrs. Obama's comments about being proud of America "for the first time" in her adult life now takes on deeper significance for me. I view that comment now as much more compelling than I did initially.

I will agree with one of the Senator's comments in his speech. America is not perfect, but it can be perfected. I have often said something similar - that while we do not always live up to the ideals upon which this country was founded - we keep trying to live up to them.

Senator Obama gave a brilliant speech. I would just be more comfortable had he addressed the entire range of issues presented by his association with Rev. Wright instead of attempting to limit them solely to a racial issue. The racial issue is there, of course - it just isn't the only issue, nor from my perspective, the most important issue. Limiting his response to the racial component does not relieve my concerns in their entirety. If Senator Obama cannot address those other issues to my satisfaction, I'll most certainly have to continue my support for Senator Clinton.


The answer is that Obama is un-patriotic. he wont wear an American Flag pin or hold his hand over his heart during the Pledge of Alligiance or the National Anthem. It is rather sick and disturbing.

[Trish]

I think that Senator Obama may have given the best speech of his career today in Philadelphia. He addressed questions of racism and discriminations head on without apology. He went further to link much of the concern and fear felt by members of the white community to the same things that black people worry about--jobs going overseas, profits placed above people, and the excessive influence wielded by lobbyists in Washington.

He also provide a context in which Rev. Wright's sermons could be understood, and criticized Wright for his assumption that society and culture cannot change. Therein, he suggested, lies the major difference between his campaign and the way Wright sees the world: Obama sees beyond the dogmas of the ancient past (to borrow a phrase) to an America wherein all of us acknowledge our common cause.

I suggest that every single person on this forum who's expressed concern about Obama and his former pastor take the opportunity to watch or read his speech. I don't have a link because it's too soon after the speech to be on YouTube--but it'll be there.

Incidentally, I haven't take the time to see what the talking heads have to say...I don't really care what they think. I heard it, and I can make up my own mind about it.



Buck,

I did watch the Senator's speech in its entirety. As always, I was impressed with his style and conviction. Without a doubt the senator's oratory skills are superb. I did have a couple of questions regarding the pastor situation which were not addressed in the speech.

Having been raised in rural Texas, I have attended black churches on numerous occasions and have long been aware of the differences in style of delivery and focus in a predominately black church versus that of a predominately white church. From a racial standpoint, I understand Rev. Wright's perspective and sermon focus perhaps better than some whites who have never attended a predominately black service. The racial component in Rev. Wright's sermons were never as big a concern to me as the anti-American content. While Senator Obama certainly addressed the race issues, I did not find the anti-American issues sufficiently addressed.

Rev. Wright's God "damn" America sermon is easily understood if one has ever attended any religious service where the pastor is preaching about accountability to God's instuctions - regardless of race or denomination. Christians are called to obedience first and foremost, so any nation that purports to be a "Christian" nation is called to obedience to God's word as well. The God "damn" language is therefore more of a warning that God's judgment will indeed be brought to bear upon the US if and when it is in disobedience to the word of God just as Israel was judged and found wanting in the Old Testament times. While Rev. Wright's choice of language was disturbing and shocking coming from the pulpit - the message it represents is not all that shocking. Had Rev. Wright used less shocking words I doubt that message would be an issue.

However, it's the statements that the US deserved 9/11, the contention that the government deliberately introduced the Aids virus into the population, the reverend's association with and admiration of Farrakhan, the contention that if WMD's were not discovered in Iraq the government would "plant" WMD's there (which has not happened), which give me pause, but not from a racial standpoint. Senator Obama's speech did indeed address the racial components of Rev. Wright's comments, but from what I heard did not address the anti-American components at all. Those anti-American components are the ones that cause me grave concern since the Senator is running to become President. Presidential candidates associating with and lending any type of credence, even remotely, to anyone espousing such anti-American sentiments should be of grave concern to every American. To me this is not a white/black issue or a religious issues but rather a patriotism issue.

Given that the Obama's have been members of Rev. Wright's congregation for many years, it is inconceivable to me that they did not know of the Rev.'s viewpoints or could not envision that those viewpoints could be devisive on a much wider level than racial. I will say, however, that Mrs. Obama's comments about being proud of America "for the first time" in her adult life now takes on deeper significance for me. I view that comment now as much more compelling than I did initially.

I will agree with one of the Senator's comments in his speech. America is not perfect, but it can be perfected. I have often said something similar - that while we do not always live up to the ideals upon which this country was founded - we keep trying to live up to them.

Senator Obama gave a brilliant speech. I would just be more comfortable had he addressed the entire range of issues presented by his association with Rev. Wright instead of attempting to limit them solely to a racial issue. The racial issue is there, of course - it just isn't the only issue, nor from my perspective, the most important issue. Limiting his response to the racial component does not relieve my concerns in their entirety. If Senator Obama cannot address those other issues to my satisfaction, I'll most certainly have to continue my support for Senator Clinton.


The answer is that Obama is un-patriotic. he wont wear an American Flag pin or hold his hand over his heart during the Pledge of Alligiance or the National Anthem. It is rather sick and disturbing.



Up until a couple weeks before the Texas primary, I had every intention of voting for Senator Obama. However, several issues gave me pause and I changed my mind voting for Senator Clinton instead.

I don't put any sort of emphasis on Senator Obama not wearing a flag pin. That's more of a personal preference type of thing to me rather than any indication of one's patriotism. While I always place my hand over my heart when saying the pledge, or when the American flag passes me, I am also aware that there are people who cannot or will not make such gestures in the same manner and for many of the same reasons that some people do not or will not swear an oath. I don't have a problem with doing so, but there are some whose personal convictions do not allow that. I don't think those issues alone are significant indicators as to one's patriotism.

That said, I do have a problem with misrepresentation - and for the past 6 or so weeks am becoming concerned that Senator Obama has misrepresented himself. The issue with his pastor's anti-American comments strikes me as important only in the sense that Senator Obama hasn't addressed those issues in any other perspective than a racial one. While the racial component is there, it is not the only component important in those statements. Senator Obama's failure to address those comments from any other component than a racial one disturbs me.

[Wndrtch]

I think that Senator Obama may have given the best speech of his career today in Philadelphia. He addressed questions of racism and discriminations head on without apology. He went further to link much of the concern and fear felt by members of the white community to the same things that black people worry about--jobs going overseas, profits placed above people, and the excessive influence wielded by lobbyists in Washington.

He also provide a context in which Rev. Wright's sermons could be understood, and criticized Wright for his assumption that society and culture cannot change. Therein, he suggested, lies the major difference between his campaign and the way Wright sees the world: Obama sees beyond the dogmas of the ancient past (to borrow a phrase) to an America wherein all of us acknowledge our common cause.

I suggest that every single person on this forum who's expressed concern about Obama and his former pastor take the opportunity to watch or read his speech. I don't have a link because it's too soon after the speech to be on YouTube--but it'll be there.

Incidentally, I haven't take the time to see what the talking heads have to say...I don't really care what they think. I heard it, and I can make up my own mind about it.



I read the speach and it was typical Obama, well thought out and articulate. The crackers of course will never accept anything a black man has to say, they'd rather form lynch mobs.


Thanks for demonstrating the real reason that Obama will never unite America. Obviously, Rev Wright and his pal, L. Farrakhan are your "spiritual" advisers as well.

I guess that's confirmation that his speech didn't have any meaning for your either.

[Buck Laser]

I'll join those who that think this speech is bunk.
Obama is not the agent of change, he is the product of it!
Bah.

Why am I not the least bit surprised?
You've never missed an opportunity to diss Obama, and you've constantly made opportunities yourself.

I don't know whether to be amazed or amused at how totally desperate right wingers are to find some way--any way--to discredit Obama. I think I'm in favor of your keeping it up, because the harder you guys try, the better Obama looks.

So fire away, boys! :clapper:

[Buck Laser]

I think the tin-foil hat crowd is really stirred up here.

Are you really calling me a member of the "tin-foil hat crowd?":fight:

[preservanation]

I'll join those who that think this speech is bunk.
Obama is not the agent of change, he is the product of it!
Bah.

Why am I not the least bit surprised?
You've never missed an opportunity to diss Obama, and you've constantly made opportunities yourself.

I don't know whether to be amazed or amused at how totally desperate right wingers are to find some way--any way--to discredit Obama. I think I'm in favor of your keeping it up, because the harder you guys try, the better Obama looks.

So fire away, boys! :clapper:
Actually Obamas Positives have plummeted 14 pts in the last 10 days.
I would like to take credit for it...but I think it has more to do with Obama that the critics of Obama.

What have I been saying for months?
Oh yeah, Hillary will do anything to win this primary election, and is.

Obama supporters have to realize this.
Also I think Hillary has overtaken him 55 to 43,something like that.
The black vs white divide has increased as well.
Hold on to your hats.

Can you say Chaos?...I knew you could!
It's going to be a wild ride.

[Easy90]

What are the Barack backers going to do when Hillary gets the nomination?

Vote for Hillary?

Vote for McCain?

Vote for Ralph Nader?

Not vote at all?

[Buck Laser]

What are the Barack backers going to do when Hillary gets the nomination?

Vote for Hillary?

Vote for McCain?

Vote for Ralph Nader?

Not vote at all?

I will vote for the democratic nominee, as I've consistently said I would. Why do you ask?

PS: Why do you change the subject in damned near every thread you post in, Easy?

[Truth_and_Power]

Exactly, he did not address the comments, nor did he say why he remained a member of this man's church and a close friend after a long history of Anti-American rhetoric.

I've watched the video twice now, and I don't see where he explains the answers to any of the questions that I have about this situation.


Aren't most republican candidates affiliated with pat robertson who often will say this or that tragedy was visited upon america by god because of (insert transgression)?

Is that different?

[Easy90]

I will vote for the democratic nominee, as I've consistently said I would. Why do you ask? (Buck Laser)

I asked because I sense a lot of Barack supporters are racially motivated, and that it's possible that when Hillary steals the nomination from him, many will be angry. I'm interested in how they will express their anger at the Black man being screwed out of the nomination by Hillary. I think the back-room guys running the DNC know that Obama is all about race..and as such, a lot of white Democrats won't vote for him...But, the problem is, if they rig it for Hillary, then a lot of blacks won't vote for her. Of course, I am aware that a lot of hard-core leftists will vote Democrat, regardless of who is on the ticket.

As for your P.S. isn't the subject Barack H. Obama? Did I spell that right? I'd hate to get reported for misspelling his name.

[brien]

Obama may have stopped the bleeding here but as Yogi Berra once said; "It ain't over till it's over."

Obama may have leashed the racial dog in this fight, but he hasn't seemed to solve his perceived character credibility problem that has surfaced in this "Pastor Wright" issue. As Trish so elogiently pointed out, it's the "anti Americanism" in Pastor Wright's sermons that is calling into question the credibility of Obama's judgement. Pundits are suggesting if Obama can't be trusted to associate himself with people of sound character, how can he sit in judgement of friend or foe to the US? Obama has 20 years of solid association with someone who has villified and lied about the US. The fact that these ideas are now propelled into the media forefront in 10 second soundbites are certainly taking their toll on Obama's campaign.

Speech or no speech, it will not change those who have already drank Obama's kool aid. Where it will have an effect is upon the votes from the white "liberal" middle class that were on the proverbial fence over their decision to vote for Hillary or Obama. Obama may now be seen as immature in his judgement of character. I think there is, in many people's mind, a perception that Pastor Wright is a radical, anti american, and a racially dividing person. Obama has disassociated himself from the remarks in the sermons but refuses to denounce the pastor. So in effect, Obama is saying, "I still embrace the man but I repudiate his sermons". This is political double speak and will not cut the mustard for the average voter who draws the line at supporting anti american rhetoric. Obama is between the proverbial rock and a hard place. He can't denounce the pastor because of his 20 years of support, yet he must diassociate himself from the perceptions of such firey rhetoric and anti american ideas. In effect he must separate the man from his rhetoric, and I don't think this is possible. One is inextricably tied to the other.

Bottom line here. This issue is not going away anytime soon. He could make speeches about it from now until the convention but its legs will continue to walk in the political nomination arena. Polls are now showing the gap between Obama and Hillary widening along racial lines. Watch and listen for anything on this from the Hillary camp because it will be another bullet for McCain's gun in the general election. This speech notwithstanding, this issue isn't going away anytime soon so, should Obama get the nomination from the Dems, look for this issue to be a factor in the general election.

Bottom line for the speech, it will only serve to ameliorate those who are predisposed to vote for him anyway. This speech won't make much difference in the general election should he get the nod from the Dems. The speech serves to illuminate the chasm between his support of the Pastor and the repudiation of his ideas. The average voter may not understand how Obama can support the man yet not repudiate his ideas, and this is what may eventually prove to be his achilles heel in the nomination, and even the general election should he get the Democratic nomination. Now, if supporters can live with that dichotomy, then they will no doubt vote for him no matter what instance arises in the general election.

[Easy90]

Aren't most republican candidates affiliated with pat robertson who often will say this or that tragedy was visited upon america by god because of (insert transgression)?

Is that different?


Who's said that? Give us a link.

[preservanation]

That's the conundrum the DNC is grappling with right now, Easy90.
IMO, not matter what... it ain't a gonna turn out well.

[Elrathin]

If all you conservatives have is THIS and other sad rhetoric, you are in for a sad awakening come election time. But please by all means make this your stand and your platform, I'll enjoy seeing Obama tear McCain to shreds. McCain's policies are Bush's policies and America doesn't want another Bush in the White House (Pun intended for Hillary :) ).

[preservanation]

If all you conservatives have is THIS and other sad rhetoric, you are in for a sad awakening come election time. But please by all means make this your stand and your platform, I'll enjoy seeing Obama tear McCain to shreds. McCain's policies are Bush's policies and America doesn't want another Bush in the White House (Pun intended for Hillary :) ).

El, if you had told me that a month ago (and you probably did) I might have agreed with you, but, "The Times, they are a Change'n..."
Hell, that sounds good, think I'll put it to music.

[4Reaganomics]

Obama had this thing, all he had to do was not implode

Now his name is becoming Mudd while McCain sits clean. This should be a wild ride indeed.

One question for the general election

If you do not know what is going on and being said at your own church with 10,000 members week in and week out, how are you going to be qualified to appoint a supreme court justice?

Are you just going to pick whoever is the most Anti-America and then claim years later that you didn't know they were Anti-America?

How are you going to appoint a cabinet when you had a man like Wright working on your campaign? Are you simply going to say, Oh I didn't know they said all of that repetatively, when they are exposed?

[4Reaganomics]

If all you conservatives have is THIS and other sad rhetoric, you are in for a sad awakening come election time. But please by all means make this your stand and your platform, I'll enjoy seeing Obama tear McCain to shreds. McCain's policies are Bush's policies and America doesn't want another Bush in the White House (Pun intended for Hillary :) ).

El, if you had told me that a month ago (and you probably did) I might have agreed with you, but, "The Times, they are a Change'n..."
Hell, that sounds good, think I'll put it to music.


I got you Pres

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-D9S48A81os&feature=related

[brien]

McCain's policies are Bush's policies

This may ,or may not, be true but it is only more guilt by association. This is exactly what the Dems are crying about with regard to Obama and the Pastor. This what they are saying is unfair yet they continually do it as well. This just goes to illustrate how there isn't any difference in the election tactics between the two major parties.

[preservanation]

To reduce Obama's spiritual advisor's and mentor's 20 years of radical black separatism, lies and anti-Americanism into one speech which ended up blaming his white Grandmother among others is a farce.
This whole thing is not good enough.
Dismissing 20 years of his religious life for political convenience with one vapid speech is a travesty.

[apdst]

It sounded to me that Obama was making excuses.

[4Reaganomics]

The bigger issue is that he claims that he was unaware of all of this rhetoric and of the 10,000 members of the church, not one of them informed him. He knew who this guy was and what he stood for, yet he is lying at this point out of desperation.

[Drocket]

This may ,or may not, be true but it is only more guilt by association.

How is this guilt by association if its true? Bush's policies have failed, spectacularly. McCain proposes continuing those policies. Is it really guilt by association for pointing out that the policies McCain wants have already failed?

[4Reaganomics]

Socialism has failed as well, miserably

Care to dismiss your democratic candidates now?

[Buck Laser]

Actually Obamas Positives have plummeted 14 pts in the last 10 days.
I would like to take credit for it...but I think it has more to do with Obama that the critics of Obama.

And what do you think the polls are gonna say tomorrow, p.r.e.s.e.r.v.a.n.a.t.i.o.n.? (I have to do it this way now because someone reported me last night for shortening it to "Preserv". Go figure.)

I'm guessing that any points he lost before the speech will be totally wiped out. I hope it annoys you.

[brien]

This may ,or may not, be true but it is only more guilt by association.

How is this guilt by association if its true? Bush's policies have failed, spectacularly. McCain proposes continuing those policies. Is it really guilt by association for pointing out that the policies McCain wants have already failed?


It is the same exact politics by the Dems because they cry foul when Obama is associated with the Pastor but when they do it to McCain, it somehow becomes acceptable. Are you trying to say that there is nothing true about Obama's association with the Pastor? There is only 20 years of truth there. It is the same exact instance, no way around it. Both parties do it. Please spare me the partisanship.

[preservanation]

Actually Obamas Positives have plummeted 14 pts in the last 10 days.
I would like to take credit for it...but I think it has more to do with Obama that the critics of Obama.

And what do you think the polls are gonna say tomorrow, p.r.e.s.e.r.v.a.n.a.t.i.o.n.? (I have to do it this way now because someone reported me last night for shortening it to "Preserv". Go figure.)I'm guessing that any points he lost before the speech will be totally wiped out. I hope it annoys you.
What???
That's ridiculous!
I don't condone that report at all.
Call me little pp for all I care.

As far as the polls, no kidding who knows what the knuckleheads they poll tomorrow will say.
Could go either way.

~The Big *P*

[Drocket]

It is the same exact politics by the Dems because they cry foul when Obama is associated with the Pastor but when they do it to McCain, it somehow becomes acceptable.

Let me know when Obama proposes following the failed policies of his pastor, mkay?

[Easy90]

Who says the policies of his minister are "failed?" Class warfare, socialistic programs and racial hatred have been a very successful strategy for the Left.

[apdst]

When you take into consideration the politics of his wife and his uncle-like preacher, how can we trust Obama to make decisions when nominating supreme courts justices and federal judges?

[Elrathin]

When you take into consideration the politics of his wife and his uncle-like preacher, how can we trust Obama to make decisions when nominating supreme courts justices and federal judges?


You mean like versus someone that believes god talks to him like Bush?

[4Reaganomics]

at least he loves his country and doesn't sit in front of a racist bigot preaching for 20 years who awards racist bigots that call Jews "bacteria"

[apdst]

You mean like versus someone that believes god talks to him like Bush?

Ah, I see. Relgious convictions are only a problem when a Republican is concerned?

DOn't forget that Obama's hero of an uncle-preacher says the Bible clearly states, "Goddamn America".

I wonder if the IRS is looking into Rev Wright's tax status. If they're not, they oughta be.

[Truth_and_Power]

Aren't most republican candidates affiliated with pat robertson who often will say this or that tragedy was visited upon america by god because of (insert transgression)?

Is that different?


Who's said that? Give us a link.


I don't know if this is the one i was remembering, but here's some similar stuff from robertson and falwell:

http://www.actupny.org/YELL/falwell.html


September 13, 2001 telecast of the 700 Club

JERRY FALWELL: And I agree totally with you that the Lord has protected us so wonderfully these 225 years. And since 1812, this is the first time that we've been attacked on our soil and by far the worst results. And I fear, as Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defense, said yesterday, that this is only the beginning. And with biological warfare available to these monsters -- the Husseins, the Bin Ladens, the Arafats -- what we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact -- if, in fact -- God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.

PAT ROBERTSON: Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population.

Chickens coming home to roost=getting what we deserve?

Looking forward to your response..

[4Reaganomics]

Seriously. What bible is Wright talking about when he says Goddam America is in it?

[Elrathin]

You mean like versus someone that believes god talks to him like Bush?

Ah, I see. Relgious convictions are only a problem when a Republican is concerned?

DOn't forget that Obama's hero of an uncle-preacher says the Bible clearly states, "Goddamn America".

I wonder if the IRS is looking into Rev Wright's tax status. If they're not, they oughta be.


Obama's Pastor isn't running for President. However, we have a president now that talks directly to god and gets answers LOL. There is a difference.

[apdst]

Obama's Pastor isn't running for President. However, we have a president now that talks directly to god and gets answers LOL. There is a difference.

What were you saying about broken records? You already told us that Bush talks directly to God. We heard you the first time.

[Easy90]

Aren't most republican candidates affiliated with pat robertson who often will say this or that tragedy was visited upon america by god because of (insert transgression)?

Is that different?


Who's said that? Give us a link.


I don't know if this is the one i was remembering, but here's some similar stuff from robertson and falwell:

http://www.actupny.org/YELL/falwell.html


September 13, 2001 telecast of the 700 Club

JERRY FALWELL: And I agree totally with you that the Lord has protected us so wonderfully these 225 years. And since 1812, this is the first time that we've been attacked on our soil and by far the worst results. And I fear, as Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defense, said yesterday, that this is only the beginning. And with biological warfare available to these monsters -- the Husseins, the Bin Ladens, the Arafats -- what we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact -- if, in fact -- God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.

PAT ROBERTSON: Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population.

Chickens coming home to roost=getting what we deserve?

Looking forward to your response..


So...you're saying Robertson and Falwell are McCain's ministers? I don't think that's accurate. What else you got?

And as far as "getting what we deserve." Could you explain what you're talking about? Are you saying we "deserved" to have Muslim terrorists hyjack airplanes full of innocent American citizens and ram them into the WTC killing thousands? Is that a common Democrat belief?

[Elrathin]

Obama's Pastor isn't running for President. However, we have a president now that talks directly to god and gets answers LOL. There is a difference.

What were you saying about broken records? You already told us that Bush talks directly to God. We heard you the first time.


Broken records is mentioning Obama's Pastor, who isn't running for president, when Obama has denounced what his pastor has said. THAT is a broken record.

[Tsky]

Obama's Pastor isn't running for President. However, we have a president now that talks directly to god and gets answers LOL. There is a difference.

What were you saying about broken records? You already told us that Bush talks directly to God. We heard you the first time.


Broken records is mentioning Obama's Pastor, who isn't running for president, when Obama has denounced what his pastor has said. THAT is a broken record.


THANK YOU!!

What the guilty by association is going on with this country?

Geraldine Ferraro made what could be considered as racist remarks about Jesse Jackson nearly 20 years ago so does that mean HRC knew she was a racist before and is a racist herself for choosing to associate with Ferraro anyway? Give me a damned break.

Rush and friends have done a pretty thorough job of making their pundits forget the obvious: OBAMA NEVER UTTERED THOSE WORDS. He denounced them, he rejected them, he repudiated them...I mean really what else is the man to do? HRC only apologized b/c she was FORCED to and somehow the media never picked up that story. Now here we are weeks later still making Obama talk about what someone else said. And really it's a blessing in disguise. All this did was reenergize his base and endear him to people who were inclined to like him to begin with. And I'm sorry to say this but the guy is darned likeable. So basically FoxNews with the help of ABC, CNN, and MSNBC have basically handed Barack Obama the nomination and I'm pretty sure, the presidency. And for that I say: THANK YOU!!

:clapper:

[apdst]

If this were a Republican vice a Democrat, you all would be squeeling like a pig under a fence. Just take the hit. It'll be ok.

[Elrathin]

If this were a Republican vice a Democrat, you all would be squeeling like a pig under a fence. Just take the hit. It'll be ok.


Like I said, broken record. So are you squealing the same way about McCain out of curiosity? I doubt it, so why don't you just take the hit that you are making a partisan hit piece?

[Drocket]

And as far as "getting what we deserve." Could you explain what you're talking about? Are you saying we "deserved" to have Muslim terrorists hyjack airplanes full of innocent American citizens and ram them into the WTC killing thousands? Is that a common Democrat belief?

It seems to be a common belief among the religious right for our failure to hate gay people enough.

The liberal - which is to say sane, reality-based - take is the 'chickens come home to roost' thing. After a few decades of imperialism in the middle east, its not too surprising that there's some people there who aren't too happy about our actions. When you screw people over the way we have, you reap what you sow.

[apdst]

In an interview with ABC News Wednesday afternoon, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., called for the firing of talk radio host Don Imus. Obama said he would never again appear on Imus’ show, which is broadcast on CBS Radio and MSNBC television.
“I understand MSNBC has suspended Mr. Imus,” Obama told ABC News, “but I would also say that there’s nobody on my staff who would still be working for me if they made a comment like that about anybody of any ethnic group. And I would hope that NBC ends up having that same attitude.”


The liberal - which is to say sane, reality-based - take is the 'chickens come home to roost' thing. After a few decades of imperialism in the middle east, its not too surprising that there's some people there who aren't too happy about our actions.

Aside from showing them how to produce their oil and make gazillions of doallrs, what did we do in the ME that was really all that bad? I keep hearing about our, "foreign policies:, in the ME. What are those, exactly?

[Tsky]

And as far as "getting what we deserve." Could you explain what you're talking about? Are you saying we "deserved" to have Muslim terrorists hyjack airplanes full of innocent American citizens and ram them into the WTC killing thousands? Is that a common Democrat belief?

It seems to be a common belief among the religious right for our failure to hate gay people enough.

The liberal - which is to say sane, reality-based - take is the 'chickens come home to roost' thing. After a few decades of imperialism in the middle east, its not too surprising that there's some people there who aren't too happy about our actions. When you screw people over the way we have, you reap what you sow.


What Drocket said stings...but it's true. The innocent people in the WTC's and in the Pentagon and in those airplanes did not deserve to die. It was disgusting, filthy and horrible. That is unquestionable. The point is that some think that those poor people had to in effect, pay for the sins of America. America's hands are not and have not been clean in the eyes of the world and admitting such is not unpatriotic, it's honest. Jeremiah Wright was speaking days after 9/11 when many, many people were shocked, hurt and angered by what we saw. Some immediately blamed the attacks on the sins of the U.S. (Wright) However, if you Google the internet and put in key words like 'America responsible 9/11' or '9/11 inside job' you will be shocked at how many pages come up from people who don't believe it was lack of American diplomacy that caused 9/11, they believe the American government caused 9/11. Now I happen not to agree with that but people who do believe that are not in my eyes unpatriotic, they are disgusted. The do not believe that 'you are either for us or against us' they believe that speaking to what they believe is right is more important than being politically correct. I see Jeremiah Wright in the same way.

Now on Jeremiah Wright and the speech:

The things Wright said are no different than things I have heard throughout the course of my lifetime, as a black female obviously with black relatives. Now relatives closer to my age never say the things Wright said, and definitely not with such passion but the younger generations worldview is not the same as someone born in the 50's and 60's. Some things your white grandparents may say about blacks may never be uttered by your friends and younger relatives but your grandparents perspective and the era in which they were raised greatly shapes their current viewpoints, no matter how skewed. Few people of different races can really talk about race in a logical fashion because we all have different perspectives about race, that's just the way it is. But we cannot continue to ignore race as if it doesn't exist and we can not use race as a crutch for everything that's wrong with America. If we can by chance hold on to the things about our race that makes us proud while at the same time reaching out and understanding the thoughts, struggles and feelings of others, we can make a dent in the racial divide. What we have in Barack Obama is a man who has embraced his black identity. Now keep in mind that he is multi-racial and in this country, for better or worse, bi-racial people in the era he was raised in were made to decide. And he struggled with who he was for a long time. Finally he stumbles upon this Church and in it he finds who he is. But he finds that he's more than a black man in America. He finds that he has in him the power to make the world a better place, for all people. He finds that he has in him the ability to inspire and he possesses the ability to unite the races because he is afterall, black and white. For Americans now, black or white, Democrat or Republican to take his association with this afro-centric church and turn him into some type of example of a racist black man, and not a viable, bi-racial candidate for President, is unfair and illogical. He speech was made to help people understand how the black church operates and what type of people it fosters and it's mission which really is a mission for the world because strong black people in the black community become strong black people in the world community. He spoke to the disadvantages that blacks have that have been passed down and how it is easy to say 'they should do better' and difficult for them to actually do better. But he didn't stop there. It is not only black people who are having a hard time in America. There are many, many whites who are poorer than blacks and can become resentful, wondering where is Affirmative Action when I need it? I have never heard anyone speak to the types of things that go on in the mind of white Americans and I was deeply moved when I found out. I imagine it's easy for someone like Barack Obama to explain both sides because he is both races. I think he brings a unique opportunity to unife America in a way that it has never experienced. I think in him we will find someone who isn't so tainted by American politics that he will find a way to benefit financially from illegal wars. I think he can bring diplomacy back to this country. I think he is a visionary that actually has the intelligence to make his visions reality. He is not the first inexperienced politician to run on a the message of hope and change. See the candidacies of Bill Clinton and JFK for confirmation. Therefore, to dismiss him as too green or too naive or too inexperience when this country has successfully chosen green, naive and inexperienced Presidents before is a fallicy. I challenge everyone to look beyond the rhetoric you see on tv and look beyond his race. He is far more than the media has reduced him to be in the past weeks.

See speech here:

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/samgrahamfelsen/gGBbKG

[Drocket]

Aside from showing them how to produce their oil and make gazillions of doallrs, what did we do in the ME that was really all that bad? I keep hearing about our, "foreign policies:, in the ME. What are those, exactly?

Well, you seem to think Saddam was a pretty bad guy. Just out of curiosity, you happen to know who supplied him with the weapons and money that put him in power?

[Drocket]

I challenge everyone to look beyond the rhetoric you see on tv and look beyond his race. He is far more than the media has reduced him to be in the past weeks.

All you have to do there is watch his speech today. One of the most brilliant and moving things I've ever seen. I have absolutely no doubt now that, win or lose, Obama is going to do more to heal the racial wounds in our country than anyone since MLK. The truth and honesty and just plain goodness in that speech is absolutely shocking.

[Trish]

I challenge everyone to look beyond the rhetoric you see on tv and look beyond his race. He is far more than the media has reduced him to be in the past weeks.



I happen to agree that all this is more than just a racial issue. If we are to look beyond Senator Obama's race, then why is Senator Obama himself making the focus of Rev. Wright's comments solely about race? The comments were not solely a racial issue and yet that is how they are being explained away - as a difference in the way white America and black America view race relations. I'm sorry, but I simply don't buy that simplistic explanation.

I think Senator Obama did an outstanding job of putting things into perspective regarding America's lingering racial issues. Some of his comments were the clearest I have ever heard in explaining the continuing white resentment and black anger. What I fail to understand is why the senator stopped there. Had he addressed the political issues, the anti-American rhetoric with the same clarity I would be more at ease in my mind.

[apdst]

Just out of curiosity, you happen to know who supplied him with the weapons and money that put him in power?

Uh, gee, I dunno, who gave him all those Soviet weapons? As if it has anything to do with anything.

The point is that some think that those poor people had to in effect, pay for the sins of America.

And what would those sins be?

[apdst]

The victimization continues. (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9062_Page2.html)

Church accuses media of 'crucifixion'
By LISA LERER & MIKE ALLEN | 3/16/08 2:02 PM EST Text Size:


CHICAGO – The church attended by Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) fought back Sunday against mounting criticism of its pastor, accusing the media of character assassination and “crucifixion.”

Otis Moss III, the current pastor of Trinity United Church of Christ, used his pulpit to defend his congregation and its past minister, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr., from a wave of controversy stemming from inflammatory statements made by Wright.

"We have listened and watched as the wonderful work of our church has been vilified this week," he told about 3,000 congregants on Palm Sunday morning. "This week should be special for us because I guess we know a little something about crucifixion."

The church also released a statement that began: “Nearly three weeks before the 40th commemorative anniversary of the murder of the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., the Reverend Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr.’s character is being assassinated in the public sphere because he has preached a social gospel on behalf of oppressed women, children and men in America and around the globe.”

Trinity, an 8,000-member church on the South Side of Chicago, came under intense scrutiny over the past week for statements made by Wright that harshly criticized American society as racist and blamed U.S. leaders for the Sept. 11 attacks.

Moss delivered a fiery sermon Sunday, defending the African-American church’s right to speak out about social issues. He stressed Trinity's work in its still-impoverished community, mentioning the church's scholarship programs, drug counseling, SAT prep classes, and missions to Africa.

"Our very sanity is connected to the church. If it hadn't been for the church we would have lost our minds in the insanity of racism," he said, in a sermon titled, "Why the Black Church Won't Shut Up."

Although Moss never mentioned Obama explicitly, he alluded to his most famous parishioner in a prayer asking God to "do something amazing in this country" and "break down walls that are centuries old."

Neither Wright or Obama were present Sunday.

Moss’s sermon also echoed the inclusiveness theme that runs though Obama's stump speeches, highlighting how the church welcomes worshipers of every color, creed, and sexual orientation.

In the statement released to reporters, Moss said called criticism of Wright and the church an “attack on the legacy of the African American Church which led and continues to lead the fight for human rights in America and around the world.”

Obama's relationship with his church has been a long-running hot button issue for his campaign. But new tapes that circulated of Wright last week reignited a firestorm of criticism.

"God bless America? No. God (expletive) America!" preaches Wright in one particularly fiery sermon circulated in news reports last week.

In a Friday column posted on The Huffington Post, Obama both rejected and condemned Wright's statements.

"The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation," wrote Obama.

On Friday, Wright also stepped down from Obama's African-American Religious Leadership Committee. The 66-year-old pastor is currently in the process of retiring from his position as head pastor of the church.

Obama first distanced himself from Wright early last year, when he withdrew an invitation for the pastor to deliver a public prayer at his announcement for the Democratic nomination.

But in his commentary, Obama made clear his strong ties to his congregation.

Wright built the church from a small flock of less than 100, to a strong pillar of African-American Chicago. The church preaches an Afro-centric theology, describing itself as "Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian."


Their black heritage is seen throughout the sanctuary. Painted glass windows depict famous scenes from black history, like the founding of the NAACP, and church officials wear bright African print tunics and robes.

The church is a social force in the South side of Chicago, running everything from computer centers to addiction counseling programs.

Trinity also takes on various political causes as part of its mission, encouraging members to write the Cook County Board of Commissioners to stop cuts in the health care system and boycott Wal-mart.


It was at Trinity that Obama had his own spiritual awakening, while working as a community organizer in the community. A 1988 sermon by Wright, called "The Audacity to Hope," became the title of Obama’s second book, published in 2006.

In Wright's farewell sermon, early last month, he did not mention Obama by name but alluded to his biography and stump speech slogan.

"But, if you use your mind, instead of a lost statistic in a hate-filled universe, you just may end up a law student at Harvard University. In fact, if you use your mind, you might end up as the editor of the Harvard Law Review. If you use your mind, instead of [being] a statistic destined for the poor house, you just may end up a statesman destined for the ... Yes, we can!" he told cheering congregants.

On Sunday, business went on mostly as usual at Trinity. The 150-person choir rocked, 10 babies were blessed, and congregants prayed.

But Moss was well aware that he was hosting some guests. At least a dozen reporters sat in the pews, taking notes on the services. Moss asked them to be respectful and his congregants not to grant any interviews.

"Some people, looking for their 20 minutes of fame," Moss teased his flock, "No interviews."

Here is the full text of the statement, with the headline, “AN ATTACK ON OUR SENIOR PASTOR AND THE HISTORY OF THE AFRICAN AMERICAN CHURCH”:

Chicago, Ill. (March 15, 2008) — Nearly three weeks before the 40th commemorative anniversary of the murder of the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., the Reverend Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr.’s character is being assassinated in the public sphere because he has preached a social gospel on behalf of oppressed women, children and men in America and around the globe.

“Dr. Wright has preached 207,792 minutes on Sunday for the past 36 years at Trinity United Church of Christ. This does not include weekday worship services, revivals and preaching engagements across America and around the globe, to ecumenical and interfaith communities. It is an indictment on Dr. Wright’s ministerial legacy to present his global ministry within a 15- or 30-second sound bite,” said the Reverend Otis Moss III, pastor of Trinity United Church of Christ.

During the 36-year pastorate of Dr. Wright, Trinity United Church of Christ has grown from 87 to 8,000 members. It is the largest congregation in the United Church of Christ (UCC) denomination.

“It saddens me to see news stories reporting such a caricature of a congregation that has been such a blessing to the UCC’s Wider Church mission,” said the Rev. John H. Thomas, UCC general minister and president, in a released statement. “ … It’s time for us to say ‘No’ to these attacks and declare that we will not allow anyone to undermine or destroy the ministries of any of our congregations in order to serve their own narrow political or ideological ends.”

Trinity United Church of Christ’s ministry is inclusive and global. The following ministries have been developed under Dr. Wright’s ministerial tutelage for social justice: assisted living facilities for senior citizens, day care for children, pastoral care and counseling, health care, ministries for persons living with HIV/AIDS, hospice training, prison ministry, scholarships for thousands of students to attend historically black colleges, youth ministries, tutorial and computer programs, a church library, domestic violence programs and scholarships and fellowships for women and men attending seminary.

Moss added, “The African American Church was born out of the crucible of slavery and the legacy of prophetic African American preachers since slavery has been and continues to heal broken marginalized victims of social and economic injustices. This is an attack on the legacy of the African American Church which led and continues to lead the fight for human rights in America and around the world.”

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. preached the Christian tenet, “love thy neighbor as thyself.” Before Dr. King was murdered on April 4, 1968, he preached, “The 11 o’clock hour is the most segregated hour in America.” Forty years later, the African American Church community continues to face bomb threats, death threats, and their ministers’ characters are assassinated because they teach and preach prophetic social concerns for social justice. Sunday is still the most segregated hour in America.

[Drocket]

Uh, gee, I dunno, who gave him all those Soviet weapons? As if it has anything to do with anything.

This picture may help:

http://www.bhopal.net/otherbhopals/archives/saddam+rumsfeld.jpg

[apdst]

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend". Is it our fault that Saddam wasn't very trustworthy. We took his ass out, though, huh?

I thought you were going to tell us who armed Saddam with all those soviet weapons.

[Drocket]

:lmao:

[apdst]

Juan Williams slams Obama. (http://en.sevenload.com/videos/C9CSgKn/juan-obama)

[ViolaLee]

Wow reading most of this thread I realize Obama will never sway the hard right from their divisive hatred and diversionary tactics from the real issues. Too bad. Damn shame. It was one of the best speeches I've ever heard in my life.

Here it is, along with the text, if you haven't seen it yet. http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/stateupdates/gGBbTW

The best part is where he talks about what we can do about the state of our society. Where he talks about how we can either keep up the divisive rhetoric or tackle the actual issues that affect our lives. We have to choose, one way or the other.

For we have a choice in this country. We can accept a politics that breeds division, and conflict, and cynicism. We can tackle race only as spectacle – as we did in the OJ trial – or in the wake of tragedy, as we did in the aftermath of Katrina - or as fodder for the nightly news. We can play Reverend Wright’s sermons on every channel, every day and talk about them from now until the election, and make the only question in this campaign whether or not the American people think that I somehow believe or sympathize with his most offensive words. We can pounce on some gaffe by a Hillary supporter as evidence that she’s playing the race card, or we can speculate on whether white men will all flock to John McCain in the general election regardless of his policies.

We can do that.

But if we do, I can tell you that in the next election, we’ll be talking about some other distraction. And then another one. And then another one. And nothing will change.

That is one option. Or, at this moment, in this election, we can come together and say, “Not this time.” This time we want to talk about the crumbling schools that are stealing the future of black children and white children and Asian children and Hispanic children and Native American children. This time we want to reject the cynicism that tells us that these kids can’t learn; that those kids who don’t look like us are somebody else’s problem. The children of America are not those kids, they are our kids, and we will not let them fall behind in a 21st century economy. Not this time.

This time we want to talk about how the lines in the Emergency Room are filled with whites and blacks and Hispanics who do not have health care; who don’t have the power on their own to overcome the special interests in Washington, but who can take them on if we do it together.

This time we want to talk about the shuttered mills that once provided a decent life for men and women of every race, and the homes for sale that once belonged to Americans from every religion, every region, every walk of life. This time we want to talk about the fact that the real problem is not that someone who doesn’t look like you might take your job; it’s that the corporation you work for will ship it overseas for nothing more than a profit.

This time we want to talk about the men and women of every color and creed who serve together, and fight together, and bleed together under the same proud flag. We want to talk about how to bring them home from a war that never should’ve been authorized and never should’ve been waged, and we want to talk about how we’ll show our patriotism by caring for them, and their families, and giving them the benefits they have earned.

I would not be running for President if I didn’t believe with all my heart that this is what the vast majority of Americans want for this country. This union may never be perfect, but generation after generation has shown that it can always be perfected. And today, whenever I find myself feeling doubtful or cynical about this possibility, what gives me the most hope is the next generation – the young people whose attitudes and beliefs and openness to change have already made history in this election.

[apdst]

Wow reading most of this thread I realize Obama will never sway the hard right from their divisive hatred and diversionary tactics from the real issues.

What's obvious, is that Obama condones black on white racism.

[Elrathin]

Keep saying that Apdst, in fact tell your candidate McCain to say the same thing it will GUARANTEE a Dem victory. Go ahead.

[ViolaLee]

Wow reading most of this thread I realize Obama will never sway the hard right from their divisive hatred and diversionary tactics from the real issues.

What's obvious, is that Obama condones black on white racism.


I gave you the link to the text. Please show us which part makes you believe that wackiness?

I think two good things came out of this Wright scandal. Now all the brainwashed right wingers who were told by newsmax and other right wing sites that Obama is a Muslim, now they know he's a Christian. LOL! The other good thing is this awesome speech.

[lily]

What are the Barack backers going to do when Hillary gets the nomination?

Vote for Hillary?

Vote for McCain?

Vote for Ralph Nader?

Not vote at all?



IF Hillary gets the nomination, I'll be voting for McCain. Don't like his policies, but at least I can trust him to be honest.

[Mayberry]

I suggest that every single person on this forum who's expressed concern about Obama and his former pastor take the opportunity to watch or read his speech. Ahhhhhh Buck. We butt heads yet again. I heard the speech, and as far as I'm concerned it sounded like excuse making and crawfishing. 20 years of attending this church, and Obama never heard anything like this? And the excuses he made for the pastor were plain weak. The "oppression of the white man" is far in the past, and no longer a valid excuse for this kind of behavior. "Minorities" have just as much, if not more opportunity today than "the man". That's a fact.

[lily]

Having been raised in rural Texas, I have attended black churches on numerous occasions and have long been aware of the differences in style of delivery and focus in a predominately black church versus that of a predominately white church.

I hate getting on the computer only in the afternoon, and you bet me to it, Trish.......there is a big difference between Black and White churches. Those that are so up in arms about this, I don't think realize it.

Rev. Wright's God "damn" America sermon is easily understood if one has ever attended any religious service where the pastor is preaching about accountability to God's instuctions - regardless of race or denomination. Christians are called to obedience first and foremost, so any nation that purports to be a "Christian" nation is called to obedience to God's word as well. The God "damn" language is therefore more of a warning that God's judgment will indeed be brought to bear upon the US if and when it is in disobedience to the word of God just as Israel was judged and found wanting in the Old Testament times. While Rev. Wright's choice of language was disturbing and shocking coming from the pulpit - the message it represents is not all that shocking. Had Rev. Wright used less shocking words I doubt that message would be an issue.

I'm sorry.......I have to disagree with you on this. It was days after 911 that he gave that speech. It was totally accepted from White Preachers.......and hardly original.

If this point was already brought up in the 8 previous pages, I apologize as I just scanned most of them.......oh and I deleted the rest of your post, so I'm not sure if it was you or someone else that brought up his wife's comments. Back when those were brought up, I addressed them.......she's in the big leagues now, she has to watch what she is saying.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-CAcdta_8I

[ViolaLee]

IF Hillary gets the nomination, I'll be voting for McCain. Don't like his policies, but at least I can trust him to be honest.


Really? Even though he dumped his wife for a younger richer one? Even though he was against torture but voted against the bill that would ban it? Even though he would be content to keep our troops in Iraq for 100 years? Even though he's 72 and will be the oldest man to ever become President in our history?

Nah, if Hillary gets it, I'll probably write in Barack Obama.

Here's Colbert on McCain. Very funny.

http://bravenewfilms.org/blog/31458-colbert-on-mccain-ex-perience-like-ex-wife

[Truth_and_Power]

Having been raised in rural Texas, I have attended black churches on numerous occasions and have long been aware of the differences in style of delivery and focus in a predominately black church versus that of a predominately white church.

I hate getting on the computer only in the afternoon, and you bet me to it, Trish.......there is a big difference between Black and White churches. Those that are so up in arms about this, I don't think realize it.

Rev. Wright's God "damn" America sermon is easily understood if one has ever attended any religious service where the pastor is preaching about accountability to God's instuctions - regardless of race or denomination. Christians are called to obedience first and foremost, so any nation that purports to be a "Christian" nation is called to obedience to God's word as well. The God "damn" language is therefore more of a warning that God's judgment will indeed be brought to bear upon the US if and when it is in disobedience to the word of God just as Israel was judged and found wanting in the Old Testament times. While Rev. Wright's choice of language was disturbing and shocking coming from the pulpit - the message it represents is not all that shocking. Had Rev. Wright used less shocking words I doubt that message would be an issue.

I'm sorry.......I have to disagree with you on this. It was days after 911 that he gave that speech. It was totally accepted from White Preachers.......and hardly original.

If this point was already brought up in the 8 previous pages, I apologize as I just scanned most of them.......oh and I deleted the rest of your post, so I'm not sure if it was you or someone else that brought up his wife's comments. Back when those were brought up, I addressed them.......she's in the big leagues now, she has to watch what she is saying.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-CAcdta_8I


Yeah I linked to a page quoting falwell and robertson saying 9-11 was america getting what it deserved because of the gays and the abortions.

[Go Fish]

The chickens have come home to roost!"


I think that's fairly self explanatory..


Sure. White people LUUUUB dey chicken! Seriously though, what does it mean? I thought it was a reference to blacks embracing Islam. What did you read into it? It truly struck me as a statement of Wright having wrought some affirmation of his views by becoming a friend and confidante of Louis Farrakhan.

[Truth_and_Power]

And as far as "getting what we deserve." Could you explain what you're talking about? Are you saying we "deserved" to have Muslim terrorists hyjack airplanes full of innocent American citizens and ram them into the WTC killing thousands? Is that a common Democrat belief?


I was quoting falwell and robertson, you'd have to ask them. I look forward to McCain bringing this up in a future debate and Obama asking him if he disavows robertson and falwell because of their statments.. or disowns, or dislikes.. or whatever wording they try to pin Obama on. Then he can squirm in front of the camera as he realizes he can't say he disavows them or 30% of his party will skip the election or vote jesus as a write-in.

I thought Obama's speech really nailed a lot of things on the head. I, for one, really identified with the racist grandmother bit. I grew up returning those comments with an uncomfortable silence, and eventually grew into the person that is able to say he disagrees. They're not evil people, they're just old and they're from a different time. Well, not robertson/falwell, they're snake oil salesmen pretending to be god's men. Just IMO I don't know the guys.

[Go Fish]

Unless the guy denounced the raciest preacher and disassociates himself & his family with this guy and his associates, I will not vote for him. Reverse racism is racist any way you look at it and its two steps backwards, America can do better.

We'll see what happens in the coming months...


There is no such thing as "reverse racism". Either you take a person for what they are, or you take them for what they look like. Evil is a one-way street.

[apdst]

Awsome speech? More like awsome crawfishin'.

Obama should be treated the same as a white candidate that frequents KKK rallies.

[Go Fish]

Unless the guy denounced the raciest preacher and disassociates himself & his family with this guy and his associates, I will not vote for him. Reverse racism is racist any way you look at it and its two steps backwards, America can do better.

We'll see what happens in the coming months...


Whatever will you do when equal inflammatory or objectionable speech is revealed in associates of other candidates?

What a silly knee jerk reaction. imo... people who are stating they will refuse to vote for Obama over this were looking of for a reason anyway.. and likely were not going to vote for him in the first place.

Fortunately for the rest of us in America though, the majority will prevail and Barrack Obama will overcome this smearing and go on the sit as CIC in the Oval Office in 2009.

If not.... do you REALLY want Hillary Clinton as CIC???


Why do you keep trying to make this a matter of his skin color and lineage? His mind is what counts, and as far as anyone can determine, it's anti-American and full of racist ideals. Not to mention the fact that he's entirely unqualified for the position.

[Truth_and_Power]

Unless the guy denounced the raciest preacher and disassociates himself & his family with this guy and his associates, I will not vote for him. Reverse racism is racist any way you look at it and its two steps backwards, America can do better.

We'll see what happens in the coming months...


There is no such thing as "reverse racism". Either you take a person for what they are, or you take them for what they look like. Evil is a one-way street.


So 3 or 4 generations ago most everyone was evil?

That's very interesting, if that's the case, why would you want to be conservative rather than liberal? Seems like you would wholeheartedly endorse change and denounce the founding fathers.

[Truth_and_Power]

The chickens have come home to roost!"


I think that's fairly self explanatory..


Sure. White people LUUUUB dey chicken! Seriously though, what does it mean? I thought it was a reference to blacks embracing Islam. What did you read into it? It truly struck me as a statement of Wright having wrought some affirmation of his views by becoming a friend and confidante of Louis Farrakhan.


I (mis)quoted you saying "the chickenhawks have come home to roost" in that statement but the mods changed it to what you really said, hence my post ended up making no sense really. I think we've got three preachers on record saying america got what it deserved/chickens roosted in the days following 9-11, apparently for different reasons. Shall we denounce all religions that see god's hand in evil deeds? Perhaps we should just denounce god?

[apdst]

hence my post ended up making no sense really.

I ain't gonna go there.

[Go Fish]

GoFish, how about instead of turning the thread into a personal attack fest, you just press that handy report button?


Anne, I may be asking the wrong person, but what the hell do you mean by that? Simply saying that I perpetrated a personal attack does not constitute a personal attack on my behalf. Shooting yourself in the foot might very well qualify, however. Go report yourself.

[AnnEsthesia]

No, I asked you to stop attacking people instead of reporting them when they say something offensive. That is most of your problem here, your "They are making me attack them" bs.

[Truth_and_Power]

hence my post ended up making no sense really.

I ain't gonna go there.


Well I know you're not gonna engage me rationally on the topic I brought up, which is the similarities in his words and the words of preachers on the far right/evangelical christian movement. It should be interesting to see what kind of ad hominems you can make work in this argument since I'm not really into religion and thus am not really a fan of any of these guys.

[bobbylien]

Absolutely his best speech yet. Wish I could have been there.

[apdst]

Well I know you're not gonna engage me rationally on the topic I brought up, which is the similarities in his words and the words of preachers on the far right/evangelical christian movement.

The problem I have with the Liberals, as far as this whole situation is concerned, is you all would react far worse if this were a Republican.

Think about the Trent Lott/Strom Thurman drama and then apply that same Leftist logic to Obama/Wright.

[Go Fish]

The chickens have come home to roost!"


I think that's fairly self explanatory..


Sure. White people LUUUUB dey chicken! Seriously though, what does it mean? I thought it was a reference to blacks embracing Islam. What did you read into it? It truly struck me as a statement of Wright having wrought some affirmation of his views by becoming a friend and confidante of Louis Farrakhan.


I (mis)quoted you saying "the chickenhawks have come home to roost" in that statement but the mods changed it to what you really said, hence my post ended up making no sense really. I think we've got three preachers on record saying america got what it deserved/chickens roosted in the days following 9-11, apparently for different reasons. Shall we denounce all religions that see god's hand in evil deeds? Perhaps we should just denounce god?

I can denounce all religions, since I don't see any relevance to the real world in any of them, except Islam and their ongoing war against us infidels. As for "God", you need to be more specific. Which one are you talking about? The one that keeps NASCAR drivers safe or the one that sanctions children wearing explosive vests?
Sucks being faced with an opposing viewpoint, but I really don't understand why you want to try to trump my religion when I don't believe in that voodoo bullshit. Wright is a dyed-in-the-wool racist, and Obama takes counsel from him, and has for his entire adult life. Obama clearly qualifies as a racist. Would you vote for a klansman?

[Elrathin]

I can denounce all religions, since I don't see any relevance to the real world in any of them, except Islam and their ongoing war against us infidels.


Ah, so are you with your friend Nevadamedic that says all Muslims are evil and only want to kill all of us?

[davo]

I wish white politicians and public figures would do the same thing as Obama for dealing with controversial associations.

However, in saying so, I don't think a white politician would be treated as fairly by the media if his pastor was a white supremacist or something along those lines.

Was still an excellent speech by Obama. I wouldn't normally vote for him but he did a great job at handling the controversy.

[apdst]

However, in saying so, I don't think a white politician would be treated as fairly by the media if his pastor was a white supremacist or something along those lines.

That's the bottom line.

I think it proves to most people that Obama is going to be untouchable if he winds up in The Oval Office.

[lily]

[quote=ViolaLee]


Really? Even though he dumped his wife for a younger richer one? Even though he was against torture but voted against the bill that would ban it? Even though he would be content to keep our troops in Iraq for 100 years? Even though he's 72 and will be the oldest man to ever become President in our history?

........see now that's going to depend on who he picks as veep.....but for the rest, yes. I don't trust Hillary. I also see this as Bill getting a third term.

[ViolaLee]

My friend had a great idea. Obama should pick Hillary for VP. That way no one would ever try to off him.

LOL!!!!!

[Trish]

Having been raised in rural Texas, I have attended black churches on numerous occasions and have long been aware of the differences in style of delivery and focus in a predominately black church versus that of a predominately white church.

I hate getting on the computer only in the afternoon, and you bet me to it, Trish.......there is a big difference between Black and White churches. Those that are so up in arms about this, I don't think realize it.

Rev. Wright's God "damn" America sermon is easily understood if one has ever attended any religious service where the pastor is preaching about accountability to God's instuctions - regardless of race or denomination. Christians are called to obedience first and foremost, so any nation that purports to be a "Christian" nation is called to obedience to God's word as well. The God "damn" language is therefore more of a warning that God's judgment will indeed be brought to bear upon the US if and when it is in disobedience to the word of God just as Israel was judged and found wanting in the Old Testament times. While Rev. Wright's choice of language was disturbing and shocking coming from the pulpit - the message it represents is not all that shocking. Had Rev. Wright used less shocking words I doubt that message would be an issue.

I'm sorry.......I have to disagree with you on this. It was days after 911 that he gave that speech. It was totally accepted from White Preachers.......and hardly original.

If this point was already brought up in the 8 previous pages, I apologize as I just scanned most of them.......oh and I deleted the rest of your post, so I'm not sure if it was you or someone else that brought up his wife's comments. Back when those were brought up, I addressed them.......she's in the big leagues now, she has to watch what she is saying.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-CAcdta_8I



Lily -

I could be wrong in my summation of Rev. Wright's "God damn America" sermon. Goodness knows I've seen enough bits and pieces of that sermon distributed to emphasis this point and that over the past few days that it would be easy to become confuse. However, I wasn't speaking of the "chickens coming home to roost" portion of the sermon where the Reverend is asserting that we were getting our just reward. I don't believe that coming from him anymore than I believe that coming from any other minister regardless of denomination or race. What I was referring to was specifically the God "damn" America language. I was raised on hellfire and brimstone sermons and while I never recall any minister saying God "damn" anything or anyone, I certainly can recall many times when the minister was warning of what could befall us and our nation if we failed to follow God's word. That's the "damnation" to which I believe Rev. Wright was asserting. Israel in the Old Testament disobeyed God and God brought down His wrath upon the nation and destroyed it and I believe Rev. Wright was giving a similar warning, although his choice of language was not the best in the world. As to WHY He was giving that warning - the particular circumstances he thought was a judgment against the US, ie. 9/11, you are certainly correct in that he was not the only minister, white or black, to make that same connection in the days and weeks immediately after 9/11.

I remember Falwell and Robertson saying very similar things as well. If either Falwell or Robertson were pastors of a presidential candidate, then their words too would be examined as they pertained to the views of the candidate. As far as I know, neither Falwell or Robertson were pastors of a presidential candidate. If the chickens coming home to roost statement was the only statement Rev. Wright had made I don't think it alone would have caused this controversy. It's the statement combined with all the others that have caused concern and I do think that concern is legitimate. There is certainly the racial component to consider, but that's not the only component that is disturbing.

[preservanation]

If the chickens coming home to roost statement was the only statement Rev. Wright had made I don't think it alone would have caused this controversy.I thought that was familiar, so I looked...This speech is sometimes called "The Chickens Come Home To Roost," because of an answer Malcolm X gave in response to a question following the speech. The question concerned the late President John Kennedy. It was Malcolm X's answer, that the Presidents death was a case of "chickens coming home to roost" -- that the violence that Kennedy had failed to stop had come back to him, this resulted in the Elijah Muhammad silencing him.
I won't post more, but look at this site...
http://www.malcolm-x.org/speeches/spc_120463.htm

Pastor Wright's rhetoric seems like it came directly from Malcolm X's speeches.
Read through some of this and tell me if you don't see striking similarities.

[PostmodernProphet]

My friend had a great idea. Obama should pick Hillary for VP. That way no one would ever try to off him.

???....you mean no one except Hillary?......

[preservanation]

As for Obama's speech...I disagree with the falling over chattering class which is heralding it as some sort of historic oratory, not paralleled since MLK's "I have a Dream".
Balder effn dash.

It was nothing.
He excused away hate by blaming it on others, and got away with it.
What ever happened to free will? Are we all prisoners of our experience and can't break from that?
If that was true, Gore would be a racist because of his dad and same with Bill Clinton because of Fulbright.
IMO this was a totally banal speech and the fact that the chattering class has never heard any of this before just goes to show how sheltered and ignorant they are.
What Wright said has been said by some about America for decades.
This is nothing new, just go to "some " popular web sites to see it on parade every day.
For some to see this Obama speech as some sort of watershed in nothing but a lot of elitists trying to assuage their own guilt.

Sorry, but like the ump, "I calls 'em hows I sees 'em.

[Trish]

As for Obama's speech...I disagree with the falling over chattering class which is heralding it as some sort of historic oratory, not paralleled since MLK's "I have a Dream".
Balder effn dash.

It was nothing.
He excused away hate by blaming it on others, and got away with it.
What ever happened to free will? Are we all prisoners of our experience and can't break from that?
If that was true, Gore would be a racist because of his dad and same with Bill Clinton because of Fulbright.
IMO this was a totally banal speech and the fact that the chattering class has never heard any of this before just goes to show how sheltered and ignorant they are.
What Wright said has been said by some about America for decades.
This is nothing new, just go to "some " popular web sites to see it on parade every day.
For some to see this Obama speech as some sort of watershed in nothing but a lot of elitists trying to assuage their own guilt.

Sorry, but like the ump, "I calls 'em hows I sees 'em.



I have to disagree with you, P. I think Senator Obama is a gifted speaker. Of course oratory skills are not a prerequisite to being President. As Michael Douglas said in his role as President Andrew Shepherd in the movie The American President, "Lewis, we've had presidents who were beloved, who couldn't find a coherent sentence with two hands and a flashlight." And of course, talk is cheap. We'll all just have to wait and see if Senator Obama is able to live up to his oratorical prowess if and when he is elected President.

[preservanation]

And of course, talk is cheap. We'll all just have to wait and see if Senator Obama is able to live up to his oratorical prowess if and when he is elected President.
That's the exact thing I heard from Hillary two days ago, and she has a good point.
Something like..."Speeches are one thing, but if you can follow up on those words (turn them into action?) is what's important. I will deliver on my words".
Most people think that she can get her policies enacted easier than Obama, which is why conservatives fear her more than him in that respect.
Also, ever think of this? As a senior Senator, Hillary can make his life miserable by questioning or opposing any legislation he sends to Capital Hill!
Hillary could be Obama's worst nightmare when it comes to getting his agenda through congress.
Of course, the press is going to beat a path to her door every time he opens his mouth to get her opinion on his positions.
What a tangled mess.