illogical arguments

[Athena]

If we were discussing Einstein's theory of relativity, who would argue Germany was fascist and killed many Jews? Einstein was a German, but does fascism and the Nazi's have anything to do with the validity of his theory?

How about arguing the US had slavery and an economic system that effectively made women slaves to men until the 1970's. Einstein's work lead to the development of the nuclear bomb in the US, but does the history of the US make his scientific work and the bomb less valid? Does the history of the US mean democracy is bad, or that the US never made an effort to be a democracy? Your arguments have not been logical because the complex concepts of democracy are not understood by those who are killing people to spread democracy.

The histories of Athens and Rome aren't very helpful in understanding the political philosophy of democracy. The classics are not exactly history stories, but the logic of the thinking behind democracy. The classics are the cream of the crop. That is, a collection of the very best thinkers of the time. Bush jr. is not an intellectual genius, and democracy is not achieved with power plays and refusing to listen. He will never write a book anyone at any time will consider a classic. My point is our histories don't explain democracy. Past slavery and past sexism does not mean the US wasn't manifesting democracy, when it educated for this purpose. To understand democracy is to study political philosophy. Just as, to understand Einstein's theory of relativity, you need to read what he wrote, or read what others wrote about what wrote, not study the history of Germany or the US, and argue slavery and sexism prove democracy is bad, or prove it didn't exist in the past.

[Labrocca]

Nice attempt to avoid the other thread.Â*Â*However...you can't just say how great Athens was yet pick and choose what you think was great.Â*Â*It's VERY relevant that Athens didn't allow women to vote and they did have slaves.Â*Â*Sorry but your analogy with Einstein and Germany doesn't fit.Â*Â*We are talking about Athens itself and it's government not a single individual.Â*Â*Your username is Athens...not Socrates.Â*Â*99% of your arguments bring up Athens and it's great philosophy on Democracy.

Give me the BEST most resourceful book I can read about Athens...I might buy it so I can point out everything wrong with it.Â*Â*There is no such thing as Utopia.Â*Â*There is a reason why Athens fell and is now just ancient history.Â*Â*History is useful to know but without forward thinking you are a person just living in the past.Â*Â*Athens was forward thinking...you Athena are not. This was the genius of our forefathers. They realized we need to be able to adapt to changes. Our constitution was the first of it's kind. A hybrid of previous Democracies that made all the ones before it irrelevent. You're stuck with a single thought and a single point to make and it's a bad point.

So did you take the blue pill or the red pill tonight?

[Athena]

Nice attempt to avoid the other thread.Â*Â*However...you can't just say how great Athens was yet pick and choose what you think was great.Â*Â*It's VERY relevant that Athens didn't allow women to vote and they did have slaves.Â*Â*Sorry but your analogy with Einstein and Germany doesn't fit.Â*Â*We are talking about Athens itself and it's government not a single individual.Â*Â*Your username is Athens...not Socrates.Â*Â*99% of your arguments bring up Athens and it's great philosophy on Democracy.

Give me the BEST most resourceful book I can read about Athens...I might buy it so I can point out everything wrong with it.Â*Â*There is no such thing as Utopia.Â*Â*There is a reason why Athens fell and is now just ancient history.Â*Â*History is useful to know but without forward thinking you are a person just living in the past.Â*Â*Athens was forward thinking...you Athena are not.Â*Â*This was the genius of our forefathers.Â*Â* They realized we need to be able to adapt to changes.Â*Â*Our constitution was the first of it's kind.Â*Â*A hybrid of previous Democracies that made all the ones before it irrelevent.Â*Â*You're stuck with a single thought and a single point to make and it's a bad point.

So did you take the blue pill or the red pill tonight?


I have no intension of avoiding the other thread, but separate things for clarity.Â*Â*Justasweseperateourwordsandusepunctati onsoitiseasierforpeopletoreadwhatwearesaying.Â*Â*

I came back to this thread, to point out Aristotle basically equated the wife with the slave and ox.Â*Â*Aristotle and Plato are two of the most important philosophers to western culture.Â*Â*Aristotle was considered as much of an authority as the bible, for much of the Christian world, when the West became literate in Greek and Roman classics.Â*Â*Saying he was wrong was taken as seriously as saying the bible is wrong.Â*Â*Yet as helpful as his logic proved to be, it was not perfect.Â*Â*On the other hand, he was very important to Western culture, because he had developed logic in the first place.Â*Â*This is what separated the West from the East.
Western culture uses linear logic, and this is what made our advancement of technology possible. The East uses wholistic logic and this is better for developing religion. It may also prove suprior to developing quantum physics, but it was a stumling block to advancing the technology we have today.

Why are you so antagonistic towards me?Â*Â*Because I know something you don't and say this knowledge is important to understanding democracy?Â*Â*If you cared about democracy, why would you read a book to point out all its errors, instead of to learn from it? What does this say about your character? I think this antagonism is typical of your generation, and has something to do with the change in public education, and has everything to do with why the US is now a threat to the world!Â*Â*I have done nothing to deserve your antagonism?Â* That you and others here are antagonistic towards me, instead of respectful, should alarm the world! You all of demonstrating the will to war that makes peace impossible. You may respect power, but you are not respectful people. You are dangerous people.

[Athena]

About the history of Athens, it was not an ideal to repeat and yet we are. The US democracy is a little over 200 years old. That is how long the democracy of Athens lasted before all the other Greek city states ganged up on it and destroyed it. They did so, because after Athens was so victorious in the sea battle with Persia, it got to thinking of itself as an unbeatable power, as citizens of the US do today, after they played such an important role in winning the second world war. Athens misused its military might as is the US misusing its military might.

The problem is a little complicated, because the US got rich off the war supplying the allies with food and weapons and everything their bombed out industries couldn't provide. Just as Athens got rich off of protecting other Greek city/states with its naval force and later profited again by turning its naval fleet into a merchantile fleet. When the wars pass and people don't need the defense, they don't want to pay for it (tribute). When they get their farms and industry going, they don't need to import their needs. But these democracies became accustom to the money, and their populations had high expectations. Their elected leaders couldn't, and can't, say, sorry folks but this the end of the gravy train.
We now have to make due with less.

However, something very exciting may happen in the US, thanks to the technology of the Internet!!! There is a strong move to put all federal government spending on the Internet so we can know where every dollar goes. Had Athens had this capability, they may have save their democracy. I don't know what will happen, but I am very hopeful we will regain the ability to exercise more control over our own government.
People who can control the spending of their governments, can control the actions of government, and lost that ability long ago.

[dsanthony]

I'm as big a fan of the Greeks as anyone, but I'll respond to the comments on US democracy in your text.

First, I'll admit that like the Athenians, I am an elitist. The founding fathers were smart to emulate Athens and limit our democracy. Even today, with universal sufferage, our govt is wisely set up to keep the Jerry Springer mob from gaining control of the govt.

That being said, here are my thoughts on why American govt is not responsive to the people. It's simple really. There are about 250 million people in the US. And a mere few hundred representatives. To accurately reflect the population, we would have to have a few thousand representatives. Such a body would be unworkable, however.

[Athena]

The book I wish everyone would read is:

Amazon.com: Pericles Of Athens And The Birth Of Democracy: Books ...Amazon.com: Pericles Of Athens And The Birth Of Democracy: Books: Donald Kagan by Donald Kagan.
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684863952?v=glance - 122k - Cached - Similar pages

This book explains the differences between Sparta and Athens.Â*Â*The US was the Athens of the modern world, and Germany was the Sparta of the modern world.Â*Â*Today the US is proudly the leader of the New World Order that was under the leadership of Hitler.Â*Â*The US could throw every weapon into the ocean and it would still be the mechanical society under military order, not the liberal society under family order that it once was.Â*Â*Please, folks there are somethings you need to be aware of before attacking me for what I just said.Â*Â*If you want to discuss this more fully, ask questions in a respectful way, don't be antagonistic towards me.Â*Â*I don't deserve that antagonism.Â*Â*

Although it is easy to get the book on the Internet, I don't expect many to buy and read it.Â*Â*The condensed explanation of the differences between Sparta and Athens, is Pericles' funeral speech which I posted long ago.Â*Â*Little things like a difference in how we treat issues of privacy are hugely important to if we have a democracy with liberty or not.Â*Â*Understanding the difference between our private lives and our public lives is very important.Â*Â*Educating for wisdom and good moral judgement based on the higher thinking skills of abstract thinking, instead of just the rapid advancement of technology.Â*Â*When we talk about these things, we will be talking about democracy- an awesome concept in the history of humanity.Â*Â*We will be talking about "that for which we stand".Â*Â*

Athena, my name sake, is the goddess of Liberty and Justice and the defense of those who stand for those things.Â*Â*The US is suppose to stand for liberty and justice.Â*Â*When we discuss issues of liberty and justice, we are discussing democracy.Â*Â*This is how democracy advances civilization and raises humanity to its full potential.Â*Â*It can bring peace on earth or if you like 'heaven to earth".Â*Â* Democracy is not limited to fights for power between political parties.Â*Â*Our industry and families can be autocratic or democratic.Â*Â*Democracy effects every aspect our of lives, when we understand what it is.Â*Â*

[hr]An awareness!Â*Â*I just became overwhelming aware that everyone is being antagonist and not respectful at all.Â* In fact posters are behaving like a pack of wolves when they think someone has shot me down. Â*To be respectful, people need awareness of what they don't know, but today the US is as paranoid as Germany was when it entered the second world war.Â*Â*This paranoia, as defined by Richard M. Brickner, M.D. when he wrote of "Is Germany Incurable?" 1943 is, an excessive need to be superior and in control.Â*Â*Â*Â*This is the result of education for technlology for the rapid advancement of technology replacing liberal education.

This awareness, revealed in the antagonism and lack of respect in these forums, is so intense, if I can afford to do so, I will pay for a google advertizement.Â*Â*I am afraid I can't afford it, but I would like to know how much it cost.Â*Â*I would like the advertizement to say something like "Why the US is a threat to the world and will self destruct- go to the Democracy Forums to find out".Â*Â* [hr]
I'm as big a fan of the Greeks as anyone, but I'll respond to the comments on US democracy in your text.

First, I'll admit that like the Athenians, I am an elitist.Â*Â*The founding fathers were smart to emulate Athens and limit our democracy.Â*Â*Even today, with universal sufferage, our govt is wisely set up to keep the Jerry Springer mob from gaining control of the govt.

That being said, here are my thoughts on why American govt is not responsive to the people.Â*Â*It's simple really.Â*Â*There are about 250 million people in the US.Â*Â*And a mere few hundred representatives.Â*Â*To accurately reflect the population, we would have to have a few thousand representatives.Â*Â*Such a body would be unworkable, however.Â*Â*


You said some things so important to the discussion of democracy, they deserve their own threads.Â*Â*Seriously, after being involved with these forums for sometime, I am thankful the common person does have more political power.Â*Â*I think an atomic war would have destroyed us long ago if the mob had more control.Â*Â*However, to understand democracy, is to know it is social not just political.Â*Â*Government is only one expression of democracy.Â*Â*How industries are managed and our families live together, and how we live together as human beings, are other expressions of democracy, or the forces that oppose democracy.Â*Â*These forums have become an excellent example of forces that are destroying democracy.
We educated for a democratic culture and had a republic form of government.Â*Â*Only when people are educated for democracy can they manifest democracy.Â*Â*This has not been done since 1958, when we began education for technology and left moral training to the church, perverting our democracy just as the Prussians preverted Germany's.

While it is not the Jerry Springer mob that controls our government, the corporations do.Â*Â*Concern about this sky rocket around the end of WW II, and several books were written on the subject.Â*Â*I keep hoping we eventually get to discussing this take over of the US government and mass media.Â*Â*A Republic can be controlled by a small group such as military and industrial interest, and turned into the New World Order enslaving the masses, within a few generations of for education for this purpose.Â*Â*When the older people die, the young, sure they are superior to all who went before, carry on with no memory of the democracy the US once was. They, like the Germans, welcome the police state they believe they must have to protect them, and its effeciency. Only when the masses have a good understanding of democracy and know its ideological enemies, can a democracy be manifested.Â*

About the organization of government.Â*Â*There are many books written on this subject and I wish people posting here would read them.Â*Â*How can we discuss something we know nothing about?Â*Â*We have radically changed the organization of our society and government, but there is so little understanding of this change, and such a strong sense that only the present and future matter, we can not discuss the most important issues.Â*Â*We are like alcoholics who associate only with alcoholics and are sure everyone drinks.Â*Â*Or people who associate with people who do "recreational drugs" and are sure everyone does drugs.Â*Â*We do not know enough about the past, or of other countries, to be able to compare ourselves, and develop a better self awareness.Â*Â*We are ethnocentric, arrogant, antagonistic and paranoid.Â*Â*As Tocqueville wrote in 1835, we think our personal experiences and relationships are a good bases for believing we know about enough about the big picture to be the authority on what is so.Â*Â* People who know little more than their own personal lives, are arguing here that they do to see the bigger picture.Â*Â*This is pathetic and frightening.Â*Â*Is anyone here old enough to be aware of the difference of thinking like a seventeen year old and thinking like a fifty year old? How about Mark Twian's statement about how, as he himself aged, his father got much smart.Â*Â*I know I don't know, and I am arguing with people who think they know everything they need to know. Respect has something to do with knowing how much we don't know.

When a nation is dominated by its young, it maybe very smart, but it isn't going to be wise.Â*Â*Smart but unwise people who have the technology of nuclear bombs, are the threat to the world, that Zeus feared they would be.Â*Â*

It is not the forbidden fruit of good and evil that cursed humanity.Â*Â*It is the discovery of technology that is the danger.Â* There is no savior who can save us from ourselves.Â*Â*There is no heaven that can make us more perfect than we desire to be.Â*Â* If we don't figure things our for ourselves, it is the end.Â*Â*Being technological smart but unwise is not a good thing. It is a very dangerous thing.

[dsanthony]

I've worked in small non-profit groups, I've worked in large corporations, and I've served in the military. Honestly, I'd much prefer corporations, or even the military, to run our country (as you put it) to the yahoos you find in non-profits.

[Labrocca]

Oddly we are being antogonistic toward you for the same reasons the Greek Cities attacked Athens.Â*Â*Athens thought it was the shit and it wasn't. Same applies here.Â*Â*


I counted 8 times the word aware(ness) in your posts.Â*Â*Basically you keep telling us all how ignorant we are for not knowing or understanding things.Â*Â*However I think it's you that's ignorant of the modern world.Â*Â*Maybe I am thick headed but how does being aware of Athens help us today?Â*Â*HOW?Â*Â*I am sure you will go on and on with a reply to that question. Basically it's all you ever say.Â*Â*I think I have only read 1 post from you at this site that only mildly referred to Athens.Â*Â*Almost all of them go on and on and on....it's babble if you ask me.Â*Â*This is not a History forums...it's a political debate site.Â*Â*It's hard to debate facts from history and you rarely place the past into perspective of the present.Â*Â*Sure you say we need to be aware of how Athens was bla bla and how the US is now like bla bla but really...you just speculate.Â*Â*

Typical post from you.

Athens was _________ just like America is today.Â*Â*If you become aware about how Athens ____________ then you will be enlightend.Â*Â*Our troubles today are because we don't understand how Democracy is from Athens.Â*Â*If we realize how Athens ____________ then we could better ourselves.

bla bla bla bla

You say our government is military style...ugh...according to what you say so was Athens.Â*Â*They started wars too. I just don't see this Utopia from Athens you seem so enamored about.

You are preaching an ideal instead of debating true topics.Â*Â*I am not even sure politically I know any of your opinions.

Oh btw...I ordered that book from Amazon. Thanks for the recommendation.

Enjoy.

[Athena]

Oddly we are being antogonistic toward you for the same reasons the Greek Cities attacked Athens.Â*Â*Athens thought it was the shit and it wasn't. Same applies here.Â*Â*


I counted 8 times the word aware(ness) in your posts.Â*Â*Basically you keep telling us all how ignorant we are for not knowing or understanding things.Â*Â*However I think it's you that's ignorant of the modern world.Â*Â*Maybe I am thick headed but how does being aware of Athens help us today?Â*Â*HOW?Â*Â*I am sure you will go on and on with a reply to that question. Basically it's all you ever say.Â*Â*I think I have only read 1 post from you at this site that only mildly referred to Athens.Â*Â*Almost all of them go on and on and on....it's babble if you ask me.Â*Â*This is not a History forums...it's a political debate site.Â*Â*It's hard to debate facts from history and you rarely place the past into perspective of the present.Â*Â*Sure you say we need to be aware of how Athens was bla bla and how the US is now like bla bla but really...you just speculate.Â*Â*

Typical post from you.

Athens was _________ just like America is today.Â*Â*If you become aware about how Athens ____________ then you will be enlightend.Â*Â*Our troubles today are because we don't understand how Democracy is from Athens.Â*Â*If we realize how Athens ____________ then we could better ourselves.

bla bla bla bla

You say our government is military style...ugh...according to what you say so was Athens.Â*Â*They started wars too. I just don't see this Utopia from Athens you seem so enamored about.

You are preaching an ideal instead of debating true topics.Â*Â*I am not even sure politically I know any of your opinions.

Oh btw...I ordered that book from Amazon.Â*Â*Thanks for the recommendation.

Enjoy.



Just because nations go to war, it does not mean they are organized by military bureaucracy. It was the Prussians who developed the military bureaucracy that has given our bureaucracies the efficiency they have today, and federal programs like Social Security would not be possible without this technological development in bureaucratic order.

As dsanthony pointed out there are good reasons for using the military model. However, there are also reasons for doing things differently. I am not objecting to all uses of the military bureaucracy applied to citizens. I just think awareness of our choices and how we are doing things differently, gives us a necessary degree of control, compared to not having any knowledge or public administration and policy planning, and being dependent on government, because we really don't know how it operates. Ususally extremes, this or that, are not a good thing. Balance, a little of this and that, generally what works best.

It be helpful to compare autocratic models with democratic models and know something about Demings democratic model, and why some nations think Japan offers a better model for industry than the US. This is kind of mixing apples and oranges, talking about government bureaucracy and industry, but democracy is about more than government. It also involves liberty and justice.

[dsanthony]

I agree that the cultures of Japan and the US are strikingly different. I grew up in a "GM" family.. My father worked at GM, my three older brothers worked at GM. Honestly, I probably would have worked at GM if I hadn't graduated from high school in the midst of the 80's downturn... when Japanese cars were banned from UAW parking lots.

I know, for instance, that "lunch" for many UAW employees means going to their cars and smoking pot, to numb themselves for the rest of their shift. Labor unions in the US protect many incompetent and unmotivated people who would not survive in the more driven and results-oriented Japanese workplace.

But, Japanese people (on the whole) are more group oriented. Americans are individualists.